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Was Jesus Really God?

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Grace and Peace yusufar,

 

If there 'are' things He 'cannot' do then aren't you really suggesting a concept of a god who is really 'not' omnipotent?

 

This appears to be a logical contradiction...

 

Peace 4 Real.

 

Greetings Ignatius,

 

If you say so... :D

 

Regards,

 

yusufar

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.islamicunityfoundation(contact admin if its a beneficial link)"]The Islamic Unity Foundation[/url]

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Greetings Ignatius,

 

If you say so... :D

 

Grace and Peace yusufar,

 

I appreciate the humor. :D

 

But seriously, unless one can demonstrate 'restrain' on moral grounds saying that their God "can't" do something leaves one affirming a less-than 'omnipotent' God. Such an affirmation is often called a 'demiurge' in Classic Christian parlance and leds some to assume that one affirms a God which is not the 'true' Almighty because it lacks the trait of real omnipotence which would be an attribute necessary for the One True God Almighty.

 

Atheists are 'big' on this attack in the West. Be prepared.

 

Peace and God Bless.

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Dear all

 

I just want to know:

 

Was Jesus born?

Did Jesus sleep?

Did Jesus eat?

Did Jesus need to relieve himself by "answering the call of nature" as they say?

Did Jesus get ill?

Did Jesus die?

 

Regards

 

Aboo Uthmaan

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Dear all

 

I just want to know:

 

Was Jesus born?

 

He was born of the Virgin Mary through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit of God Almighty as the unique Incarnation of God in the flesh. So if you ask was "Jesus" born yes but we have to recognize the Christian Teaching of His 'Two Natures' in order to recognize what we mean by the Incarnation of God in the Flesh.

 

Did Jesus sleep?

 

Jesus was 'Wholly Man' so yes He experienced the need to sleep.

 

Did Jesus eat?

 

Jesus was 'Wholly Man' so yes He experienced the need to eat.

 

Did Jesus need to relieve himself by "answering the call of nature" as they say?

 

We don't have any written records to establish this but I'd be so bold as to suggest that in taking on the flesh of manhood he experience every need as any normal man except sin.

 

Did Jesus get ill?

 

We don't have any written records to establish this but since illness is brought about by sin and the fact that Jesus entered the world 'without sin' I would suggest that He didn't suffer the effects of illness.

 

Did Jesus die?

 

This is the most shocking thing which Christians assert. Jesus Christ died and rose from the dead with witnesses as attested by the Gospel accounts and the lives given up by the Martyrs who refused to deny this Truth.

 

Peace and God Bless.

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Yes.

 

"Christ became what we are that he might make us what he is."

(Athanasius)

 

"For we affirm His divinity so joined and united with His humanity that each retains its distinctive nature unimpaired, and yet those two natures constitute one Christ"

-John Calvin (Institutes).

 

"I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: 'I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God.' That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic - on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg - or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronising nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to."

CS Lewis (Mere Christianity)

 

 

Even the Old Testament Jewish prophets thought so.

 

Isaiah 7:14—“Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel†(Immanuel literally means “God with usâ€).

 

Isaiah 9:6—“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end....â€

 

Jeremiah 23:5-6—“Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.â€

 

Micah 5:2—“But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.â€

 

Malachi 3:1-2—“Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap.â€

 

 

Jesus was certainly comfortable with the idea.

 

Matthew 8:1-4—“When He had come down from the mountain, great multitudes followed Him. And behold, a leper came and worshiped Him, saying, "Lord, if You are willing, You can make me clean." Then Jesus put out His hand and touched him, saying, "I am willing; be cleansed." Immediately his leprosy was cleansed. And Jesus said to him, "See that you tell no one; but go your way, show yourself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, as a testimony to them.â€

 

Matthew 9:18—“While [Jesus] spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.â€

 

Matthew 14:33—“Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.â€

 

Matthew 15:25—“Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.â€

 

Matthew 28:9—“And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.â€

 

Matthew 25:31-33, 41—“When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.... Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.â€

 

Matthew 26:63-65—“But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God. Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.â€

 

Mark 2:5-11—“When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee. But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts, Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?... [Jesus] said unto them, But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house†(cf. Lk. 5:20-24).

 

Mark 5:6—“But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him.â€

 

Luke 24:51-52—“And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven. And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy.â€

 

John 5:17-26—“But Jesus answered them, ‘My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.’ Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. Then Jesus answered and said to them,... ‘For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.... For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself’â€

 

John 8:57-59—“Then the Jews said to Him, ‘You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?’ Jesus said to them, ‘Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.’ Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple...â€

 

John 9:35-38—“...he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God? He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him? And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee. And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.â€

 

John 10:28-39—“And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them,... If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand.â€

 

John 15:26—“But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me.â€

 

Revelation 1:18—“And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, "Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen.â€

 

Revelation 21:6-7—“And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.â€

 

So in saying Jesus is God, I am just agreeing with the prophets and Jesus.

Edited by me

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Dear Ignatius

 

Is Jesus God?

 

Grace and Peace aboo_uthmaan,

 

Within the the temporary tent of flesh that we have called 'Jesus the Christ' dwelt the very essence of God in man. This is how we understand Jesus' claim that 'I and the Father are One'. I have heard Muslims make the astute claim that this was concerning 'purpose' and I agree the purpose of Jesus was clearly the work of His Father but as a Christian we understand this to be beyond simple allegiance as many Muslims would suggest but to be a human soul united with the spirit of the Father in a very 'unique' way, one of essence. A union unbreakable, even in death, yes even death on a Cross. It is through Jesus that we know this union with the Father is possible for He was the 'first of many brothers'. He was the Door through which man enters into personal unbreakable union with the Father. Perhaps you are after simple answers but I can tell that there is nothing simple about the Incarnation of God. It is a limitless topic which confounds all logic and reason. All human means of articulation are ultimately set aside. The person and nature of Jesus Christ is the deepest mediation a Christian may fathom and in it we will spend our lifetime in contemplation.

 

It is within this inexhaustability that we find it most apt to call it a mystery.

 

Peace and God Bless.

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Peace from our Lord,

Well, editing basically means cutting or replacing sentences. If a verse is not in the oldest manuscripts, what is it doing in the new manuscripts?

There are no deliberate changes in the text of the Bible. There are some instances of deliberate change in some manuscripts, but with one one exception none of them entered printed books (except text-critical remarks, of course, in "critical editions" or so).

 

There are five major reasons for scribal errors:

 

1. Changing a word with another word of a similar meaning. This may happen to a careless or overconfident scribe who reads to much of the text and then writes it down out of memory. Usually we dont keep the wording in memory, but the sense.

 

2. Misreading (maybe the original was corrupted at that point) or mishearing (sometimes one person read to several copyists) a letter or sound

 

3. After writng some words, looking at the wrong place for the continuation of the text, thus writing some words twice or ommitting some.

 

4. Misunderstanding of marginal motes, taking a comment for a correction or vice versa. There is an instance where the names Julia and Nereus are changed into Bereus ans Aulia in one manuscript. It was evidently copied from a manuscript where the scribe changed the order of names by error, and then he (or some corrector) added the letters A and B to show the correct order, which was misunderstood by the next copyist.

 

5. Assuming an error when readng the text of a Gospel book and having in mind the parallel text of another book. Thus transferring text from one Gospel book to another. Almost all instances where whole verses are added belong to this category.

 

The (www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.gawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showtopic=26671&st=0&p=256726?entry256726"]Gospel[/url] has not been changed, I know no teaching that had to be altered when the errors were detected by textual criticism and corrected in newer Versions.

 

And most the verses whre it is hard to decide which reading is correct belong to the first category, where the meaning was not altered.

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Peace from pour Lord,

Hi

"O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allah aught but the truth. The Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word ("Be!"-and he was) which he bestowed on Mary and a spirit (Rouh) created by Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not: 'Three (trinity)! Cease! (It is) better for you. For Allah is (the only) One Ilah (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is on the earth. And Allah is All-Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs." (Qur'an 4: 171)

 

The interpretations You give in parentheses are somewhat misleading.

 

The verse is an allusion to the refuting of one anti-trinitarian faith called tritheism. Which means the belief Father, Son and Spirit are three Gods.

So, everyone saying "Three [gods]" trangresses the limits of his religion, i.e. he is no Christian at all.

 

So as a "by-product" You can see from this qur'anic verse that trinitarians do not believe in three Gods. So please stop talking as if we do it.

 

We know that the Anointed is the word of God. Therefore we know that He is eternal, for unless God is a liar, He will not destroy His own word. And we know from the Bible that Jesus has eternal beginning. He was there when God created the world. This is no "catholic teaching", it is written in the Bible.

 

As to sons, if You think of physical sons, the quotation right. But there are many beings called son of God in the Bible: Angels, israel, everone who has faith in Jesus as Lord. I am a son of God, too, for I was born again from His Spirit. Don't tell me that didn't happen, I have experienced it and You were not present :D

 

Of, course, Jesus is more than a mere human like me born again as a son of God. And the messengers He sent to us explained this in more detail. If You don't accept our messengers, that is Your problem, not mine.

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Peace from our Lord,

It is interesting that you gave the definition of the name Jesus. Can you tell me why you chose this particular definition?

I suppose chose ist because it is the correct rendering.

 

The oldest form of this name we know of is h-w-š-` (hê-waw-shin-`ayin), traditionally rendered as "Hoshea", but we can't be sure about the vowels :D Strictly speaking, it was a different name, but a person of this name was renamed according to a command God gave to Moses, and he received the name y-h-w-š-` (hay-shin-waw-`ayin, traditionally rendered "Joshua") by adding a y (yod) before the old name. You can clearly see the parts of the name: y-h-w, which refers to the name of God revealed to Mose (sometimes incorrectly rendered as "Jehovah"), and the root of the word "save". So the name means "God saves".

To indicate the vowels, the name is sometimes written y-h-w-š-w-` (by adding a second waw), so we can be rather sure the pronunciation Joshua is quite correct (the "a" is rather an ayin vocalized by European Jews who can't speak an `ayin sound).

 

After the capture and deportation to Babylon, many Jews could not speak Hebrew, they spoke Aramaic (not to be confused with Armenian) instead. In Aramaic, the Name was pronounced "yeshu`" (written y-š-` or y-š-w-`, often rendered as "yeshua" by Europeans, the final ayin replaced by "a"), which is confirmed by the transcription iêsous in the Greeek translation "LXX" approx. 200 BC. To those who love English pronunciatoin: iêsous shold be something like "Yaysoos", but the "e" is no diphtong as the "ay" is, its rather a plain vowel. The final s, btw, is a Greek grammatical ending.

 

This (yeshu`/iêsous) was the name or Lord was given according to the commandment of the angel:

Matthew 1:20. But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.

21. "She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins."

æáßä ÃíãÇ åæ ãÊÃßÑ Ãí Ã¥ÃÃ¥ ÇáÇãæÑ ÇÃÇ ãáÇß ÇáÑÈ Þà ÙåÑ áå Ãí Ãáã ÞÇÆáÇ íÇ íæÓà ÇÈä ÃÇæà áÇ ÊÎà Çä ÊÃÎà ãÑíã ÇãÑÃÊß. áÇä ÇáÃí ÃÈá Èå ÃíåÇ åæ ãä ÇáÑæà ÇáÞÃÓ. .20

ÃÓÊáà ÇÈäÇ æÊÃÚæ ÇÓãå íÓæÚ áÇäå íÎáøÕ ÔÚÈå ãä ÎØÇíÇåã. .21

Later the Greek letter "ê" became pronounced as "i" (or "ee" in modern English stile), which is the main reason the name is `isa in the Qor'an. Note that a similar vowel change (long e to i) later occured in English, as well as a change in the pronunciation of the letter "j", which originally signified an "y" semivowel.

 

Also, if Jesus (PBUH)referred to himself as Son of God, he never said that he is God. So again, why God wouldn't say he is God is also a mystery.

Jesus also avoided to say that he is the messaiah (masih in Arabian). He told not everything, but the Spirit he has promised has shown this to clearly to our messengers. And He never rebuked one who prayed to Him:

John 20:28. Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

29. Jesus *said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."

ÇÌÇÈ ÊæãÇ æÞÇá áå ÑÈí æÇáåí. .28

ÞÇá áå íÓæÚ áÇäß ÑÃíÊäí íÇ ÊæãÇ ÂãäÊ. ØæÈì ááÃíä ÂãäæÇ æáã íÑæÇ .29

You see, those who call Jesus Lord and God are called "believers" by Him!

 

It is true that the Bible has been edited over time.

No, this is not true. There is no evidence for that.

 

No Christian scholar will testify that the Bible today in its form is exactly the same as it was when it was written.

Kurt Aland, expert on New Testament textual research and chief Editor of the "Novum Testamentum Graece" (standard edition of the NT in the original language), testified exactly this. He is dead by now, but I know of no scholar that speaks to the contrary.

 

Of course, there are some unwarranted speculations by Western scholarship. More than 100 years ago some guys even said Jesus never existed. The same is now said by the same type of scholars about Mohammad: a figure invented by utilizing the text of the Qor'an. Do you really want to base Your arguments against the Bible on such kind of "scholarship"?

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Grace and Peace yusufar,

 

If there 'are' things He 'cannot' do then aren't you really suggesting a concept of a god who is really 'not' omnipotent?

 

This appears to be a logical contradiction...

 

Peace 4 Real.

 

 

God will not do anything that will slander or contradict the characteristics of God Himself. For example. Can God becomes an atheist, hypocrite, terrorist, rapist, liar, a beggar etc? Will God create another God that is greater than Him? God will not do such things for they will degrade His characteristics as a God!

 

Allah will not insult, degrade nor slander Himself for Allah is the All Wise!

 

Allah is the true God. Who is Allah? He is God; there is no god but He. He is the Knower of the unseen and the visible; He is the All-Merciful, the All-Compassionate. He is God; there is no god but He. He is the King, the All-Holy, the All-Peace, the Guardian of the Faith, the All-Preserver, the All-Mighty, the All-Compeller, the All-Sublime. Glory be to God, above that they associate! He is God, the Creator, the Maker, the Shaper. To Him belong the Names Most Beautiful. All that is in the heavens and the earth magnifies Him; He is the Almighty, the All-Wise†(Quran 59:22-24).

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God will not do anything that will slander or contradict the characteristics of God Himself. For example. Can God becomes an atheist, hypocrite, terrorist, rapist, liar, a beggar etc? Will God create another God that is greater than Him? God will not do such things for they will degrade His characteristics as a God!

 

Allah will not insult, degrade nor slander Himself for Allah is the All Wise!

 

Grace and Peace Abdul2006,

 

Are you suggesting that although God 'has the power' to create another God that is equal or greater than Himself He knows better than to do such a thing because it would ultimately degrade His Authority over His Creation?

 

Are you familar with the term Demiurge?

 

Peace.

Edited by Ignatius

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''Mary mother of god because Fundamentalists are sometimes horrified when the Virgin Mary is referred to as the Mother of God. However, their reaction often rests upon a misapprehension of not only what this particular title of Mary signifies but also who Jesus was, and what their own theological forebears, the Protestant Reformers, had to say regarding this doctrine.

A woman is a man’s mother either if she carried him in her womb or if she was the woman contributing half of his genetic matter or both. Mary was the mother of Jesus in both of these senses; because she not only carried Jesus in her womb but also supplied all of the genetic matter for his human body, since it was through her—not Joseph—that Jesus "was descended from David according to the flesh" (Rom. 1:3).

Since Mary is Jesus’ mother, it must be concluded that she is also the Mother of God: If Mary is the mother of Jesus, and if Jesus is God, then Mary is the Mother of God. There is no way out of this logical syllogism, the valid form of which has been recognized by classical logicians since before the time of Christ.

Although Mary is the Mother of God, she is not his mother in the sense that she is older than God or the source of her Son’s divinity, for she is neither. Rather, we say that she is the Mother of God in the sense that she carried in her womb a divine person—Jesus Christ, God "in the flesh" (2 John 7, cf. John 1:14)—and in the sense that she contributed the genetic matter to the human form God took in Jesus Christ.

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Since Mary is Jesus’ mother, it must be concluded that she is also the Mother of God: If Mary is the mother of Jesus, and if Jesus is God, then Mary is the Mother of God.

This logic is based on a false assumption, simply because Jesus is just a human being, just like all messengers and prophets are.

God was never born, He is the origin of all creations, He is the beginning of all things.

 

Its funny to even think, theoritically, that God had a mother, because in that case the mother would be the god not the son. But then again, the mother who gave birth to that mother god should be the god not her daughter, and this could go endlessly. But however you take this, you'll reach the ultimate creator of all, and that is God almighty.. everthing and everyone else are but God's creations.

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This logic is based on a false assumption, simply because Jesus is just a human being, just like all messengers and prophets are.

God was never born, He is the origin of all creations, He is the beginning of all things.

 

Its funny to even think, theoritically, that God had a mother, because in that case the mother would be the god not the son. But then again, the mother who gave birth to that mother god should be the god not her daughter, and this could go endlessly. But however you take this, you'll reach the ultimate creator of all, and that is God almighty.. everthing and everyone else are but God's creations.

 

Grace and Peace dot,

 

It would be funny to think of it like this dot but fortunately it is not Christian teaching to suggest that Mary is the Mother of the Almighty only the Incarnation of the Almighty on earth. This is a unique state which without Mary’s role would not be. It has 'nothing' to do with Mary being the source who supplies divinity to her son but only as recognition to the nature of her son as divine.

 

If you find this interesting I can pursue it with much greater lucidity.

 

Peace

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Moses, Jesus and Muhammad (peace and bless upon them) said that God was One and Only:

 

Moses said "Hear, O israel: The Lord our God is one Lord." (Deuteronomy 6:4).

 

Jesus said "...The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O israel; the Lord our God is one Lord." (Mark 12:29)

 

Muhammad said "And your God is One God: There is no God but He, ..." (The Qur'an 2:163)

 

Since Allah (God) is One and Only, Allah has no sons. Therefore Jesus is not the son of God because God is One and Only. Allah (God) is not One in THREE persons because Allah is One and Only!

 

If you call Jesus the son of God because he had no father, you are wrong! Allah is the Creator and He can creates whatever he likes to. Allah had created Adam and Eve who had neither mother nor father so creating Jesus who had no father was much easier!

 

Muslims respect and revere Jesus (peace be upon him). They consider him one of the greatest of God’s messengers to mankind. The Quran confirms his virgin birth, and a chapter of the Quran is entitled ‘Maryam’ (Mary). The Quran describes the birth of Jesus as follows:

 

 

(Remember) when the angels said, “O Mary, God gives you good news of a word from Him (God), whose name is the Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, revered in this world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near (to God). He will speak to the people from his cradle and as a man, and he is of the righteous.” She said, “My Lord, how can I have a child when no mortal has touched me?” He said, “So (it will be). God creates what He wills. If He decrees a thing, He says to it only, ‘Be!’ and it is.” (Quran, 3:45-47)

 

Jesus was born miraculously by the command of God, the same command that had brought Adam into being with neither a father nor a mother. God has said:

 

The case of Jesus with God is like the case of Adam. He created him from dust, and then He said to him, “Be!” and he came into being. (Quran, 3:59)

 

The One true God is a reflection of the unique concept that Islam associates with God. To a Muslim, Allah is the Almighty Creator and Sustainer of the universe, Who is similar to nothing, and nothing is comparable to Him. The Prophet Muhammad was asked by his contemporaries about Allah; the answer came directly from God Himself in the form of a short chapter of the Qur'an, which is considered to be the essence of the unity or the motto of monotheism. This is chapter 112, which reads:“ In the name of Allah, the Merciful, the Compassionate. Say (O Muhammad), He is God, the One God, the Everlasting Refuge, who has not begotten, nor has been begotten, and equal to Him is not anyone”.

Edited by Krieger

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Mary was not the mother of God for God exists by Himself! God was not born by a woman because no woman exist before God. This means that Mary did NOT bear God but a man whose name was Jesus!

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Moses, Jesus and Muhammad (peace and bless upon them) said that God was One and Only:

 

Moses said "Hear, O israel: The Lord our God is one Lord." (Deuteronomy 6:4).

 

Jesus said "...The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O israel; the Lord our God is one Lord." (Mark 12:29)

 

Muhammad said "And your God is One God: There is no God but He, ..." (The Qur'an 2:163)

 

Grace and Peace be with you Krieger,

 

Knowing the claims of your faith, as I do, I can appreciate your post. In fact, as a Christian, I can wholeheartedly agree with you because we don't deny the unity (or oneness) of the Godhead.

 

Knowing the claims of your scripture, as I do, I can appreciate your position regarding the Doctrine of the Trinity. In fact, as a Christian, I can wholeheartedly agree that God is not 'three in one' nor 'one in three' as Muslims appear to understand the Doctrine of the Trinity.

 

Truly the 'unity in diversity' that is the Doctrine of the Trinity is and has always been one of the greatest challenges to man of any religious Doctrine because it rest within the quarrelsome dicotomy we encounter as we penetrate into an unspeakable union with the Divine Nature. Such is the natural state of awe and confusion when the finite encounters the infinite and then expresses the infinite in finite terms.

 

The Trinity is the best that we can do to articulate the mystery that is beyond the limits of our description. Truly from the distant and exterior encounter with the Divine it can simply be spoken of as Oneness or Unity (Tahweed) but once encountered with greater intimacy and depth this Oneness... this simplicity is beyond Oneness as well as beyond multiplicity. It lacks the finite-ness of simple discription as Oneness and swims within an unspeakable state which we, lacking the capacity to describe with clarity, label 'Trinity' not in an attempt to make God 'three in one' or 'one in three' but in an attempt to reconcile the sheer mystery of the Divine Nature which transcends the mundane label of 'one' yet is not shared among 'many' yet is found 'everywhere'.

 

Since Allah (God) is One and Only, Allah has no sons. Therefore Jesus is not the son of God because God is One and Only. Allah (God) is not One in THREE persons because Allah is One and Only!

 

I can appreciate your attempt to illuminate the unreasonableness of this mystery but just as God is infinite we cannot grasp His Divine Nature with finite terms with any sense of completeness.

 

Throughout revelation we encounter the very Words of God spoken from the mouths of mere men who are His Prophets; we encounter His Will exercised through the Wills of the Righteous; within the Ark of the Covenant dwelt within His own creation His very presence; in His Books we encounter His Thoughts and Ideas yet all of these are ultimately 'His' yet contained in people, places and things which are 'not Him'.

 

When we, as Christians, speak of Jesus Christ as the Son of God we are speaking of the creature who manifested in the most unique and complete sense ever the very Words, Will, Righteousness, Presence, Thoughts and Ideas of the infinite Creator. All this embodied within a mere man yet also the embodiment of God in the flesh. We call this the 'Incarnation.'

 

To understand this and to accept this would cause you to be Christian and so I don't pretend that you will accept this but I am moved with love regardless to offer it to you only as an explanation as to why we believe what we do about our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

 

If you call Jesus the son of God because he had no father, you are wrong! Allah is the Creator and He can creates whatever he likes to. Allah had created Adam and Eve who had neither mother nor father so creating Jesus who had no father was much easier!

 

Truly this is a reasonable refutation as to why this is not a good reason to assert Jesus as the Son of God. I have no problem accepting this. Unfortunately or fortunately this is not why we, as Christians, call Jesus the son of God.

 

I have given some brief reasons why above.

 

Muslims respect and revere Jesus (peace be upon him). They consider him one of the greatest of God’s messengers to mankind. The Quran confirms his virgin birth, and a chapter of the Quran is entitled ‘Maryam’ (Mary). The Quran describes the birth of Jesus as follows:

 

 

(Remember) when the angels said, “O Mary, God gives you good news of a word from Him (God), whose name is the Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, revered in this world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near (to God). He will speak to the people from his cradle and as a man, and he is of the righteous.†She said, “My Lord, how can I have a child when no mortal has touched me?†He said, “So (it will be). God creates what He wills. If He decrees a thing, He says to it only, ‘Be!’ and it is.†(Quran, 3:45-47)

 

Jesus was born miraculously by the command of God, the same command that had brought Adam into being with neither a father nor a mother. God has said:

 

The case of Jesus with God is like the case of Adam. He created him from dust, and then He said to him, “Be!†and he came into being. (Quran, 3:59)

 

The One true God is a reflection of the unique concept that Islam associates with God. To a Muslim, Allah is the Almighty Creator and Sustainer of the universe, Who is similar to nothing, and nothing is comparable to Him. The Prophet Muhammad was asked by his contemporaries about Allah; the answer came directly from God Himself in the form of a short chapter of the Qur'an, which is considered to be the essence of the unity or the motto of monotheism. This is chapter 112, which reads:“ In the name of Allah, the Merciful, the Compassionate. Say (O Muhammad), He is God, the One God, the Everlasting Refuge, who has not begotten, nor has been begotten, and equal to Him is not anyoneâ€.

 

Truly this is wonderful I don't doubt Muslim respect and love of Isa (Jesus) I can only say that Islam appears to fall short the revelations which Christianity claims as revealed through it's encounter with the Divine Nature of the Godhead.

 

I say this with the greatest respect and affection to all those Muslims who truly revere the Almighty with fear and trembling and struggle and strive to do good and avoid evil. Truly there is much in common between our two faiths but unfortunately we struggle with these weighty issues which are so dear to us.

 

I pray that God guides to all wisdom and keeps save from all error. Amen.

 

Peace and God Bless you.

Edited by Ignatius

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Mary was not the mother of God for God exists by Himself! God was not born by a woman because no woman exist before God. This means that Mary did NOT bear God but a man whose name was Jesus!

 

Grace and Peace Krieger,

 

I have spoken with you at some length concerning the Christian revelations of Jesus. Truly without a grasp of him and his nature understanding the nature of the term "Mother of God" is completely out of the question. I am sorry that this is offensive to you or challenges Islam and it's teachings in anyway. These teachings are very old and at the time there were simply no Muslims to offend. Perhaps with the coming our Lord and Saviour on the Day of Judgment we might have clarity on this matters and both be found blameless of any errors. Amen.

 

If you find you want to discuss the Virgin Mother I am at your call but I will not pursue further dialogue about her if there is no interest.

 

Peace and God Bless.

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How is it possible to explain that God is three but at the same time one.

 

1+1+1 = 3 Correct , but it means 3 Gods then, also Called Polytheism. 1+1+1 = 1 , Wrong, not logical , but this is the concept of trinity.

 

This is basic maths. Why would God Almighty require humans to believe in something that totally contradict basic human logic and reason?.

 

If I was a atheist, how would you then explain me this at all? .... To believe in this you need blind faith or atleast deny basic maths. Does God really require that we believe blindly and deny our own simple logic.

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Peace Nooni,

 

What is 1x1x1?

 

Look at a shamrock or three-leaf clover. Three leaves, one shamrock. Each leaf is distinct from the other but share the same substance right down to the dna. A tiny gnat would never be able to see the whole shamrock at once, but flying around might conclude that there are three single-leaf shamrocks rather than one shamrock with three leaves. Something greater than the gnat must reveal to the gnat that the shamrock is one. So in it's flitting the gnat encounters three distinct leaves, but understands that the shamrock is one.

 

Please forgive the simplistic analogy, but God is one, God is one, God is one. Anyone who says differently is no Christian.

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Peace Nooni,

 

What is 1x1x1?

 

Salaam,

 

If God creates something, then how is it that his creation is the same as he?

 

Imperial1

Edited by Imperial1

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Peace imperial1,

 

Not sure I understand the question. The creation reflects God's glory. It is not a perfect revelation of Him, but a sign.

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How is it possible to explain that God is three but at the same time one.

 

1+1+1 = 3 Correct , but it means 3 Gods then, also Called Polytheism. 1+1+1 = 1 , Wrong, not logical , but this is the concept of trinity.

 

Grace and Peace Nooni,

 

Actually this is 'not' the concept of the Trinity this is a limited grasp of the Doctrine of the Trinity expressed through an analogy which fails to express it in terms which recognizes it's true objective... please read post #68.

 

This is basic maths. Why would God Almighty require humans to believe in something that totally contradict basic human logic and reason?.

 

Because God Almighty is beyond finite concepts... all logic and reason do is handle finite concepts which only point to the infinite of God Almighty.

 

If I was a atheist, how would you then explain me this at all? .... To believe in this you need blind faith or atleast deny basic maths. Does God really require that we believe blindly and deny our own simple logic.

 

No but nor is God Almighty found within limited systems of reasoning.

 

What I would do is 'invite' you to come and encounter the divine yourself through deep prayer and reflection and convict you with your own experiences and not with logic or reason. Our relationship... our encounter ultimately must be established through first-person means and not through second-person reasoning. That is not an encounter with God but merely an encounter with rational concepts and although they can be helpful they are ultimately a cage that can serve to keep us separate from a real spiritual life in the Spirit of God and bound to a life of pseudo-spiritual life of second-hand argumentation and tradition. Such was the life of the Pharisees, a life of appearances with no depth and thus no life.

 

God has invited us to encounter and participate in the divine life of the Spiritual man, one in union with the divine. In that union... in that encounter we find the Interior Master whom reigns over our hearts and brings peace not through an external law but one superior to external law... the direct reign over the very source of error and sin... the human heart void of the divine Spirit.

 

When we have the Interior Master reigning in our hearts we cease to need external means of establishing our faith for others as our example speaks for us and establishes our legitimacy. Only then will the willing seek us out for instruction and guidance. Only then is the truth on our lips and in our lives. Until then we exercise only a shadow of the truth hidden in lies and tyranny such is never the truth.

 

Peace and God Bless.

Edited by Ignatius

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Peace imperial1,

 

Not sure I understand the question. The creation reflects God's glory. It is not a perfect revelation of Him, but a sign.

 

 

Salaam,

 

My question was quite clear. If Jesus is the "son of God," then isn't it logical to say that Jesus is a creation of God?

 

You said: The creation reflects God's glory. It is not a perfect revelation of Him, but a sign.

 

Therefore, since Jesus is God's creation, then how is it that God's creation is the same as God himself if his creation reflects God and his glory but is not a perfect revelation of him?

 

Imperial1

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