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Thank you very much for correcting my language. Even though my usage was correct and the meaning my sentence was well understood!

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Do some people actually think that using anti-semite to mean anti-jewish is incorrect? Or are they just being pedantic?

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Peace from our Lord,

Do some people actually think that using anti-semite to mean anti-jewish is incorrect? Or are they just being pedantic?

Maybe, or they try to blur things to cover their antisemitism?

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Holocaust is not just about the Jews. A lot of other people were killed too.

 

From Wikipedia

 

"The Jews of Europe were the main victims of the Holocaust in what the Nazis called the "Final Solution of the Jewish Question" (die "Endlösung der Judenfrage"). The commonly used figure for the number of Jewish victims is six million, though estimates by historians using, among other sources, records from the Nazi regime itself, range from five million to seven million. Many gentiles were killed in addition to this figure.

 

About 220,000 Sinti and Roma were murdered in the Holocaust (some estimates are as high as 800,000), between a quarter to a half of the European population. Other groups deemed "racially inferior" or "undesirable": Poles (5 million killed, of whom 3 million were Jewish), Serbs (estimates vary between 100,000 and 700,000 killed, mostly by Croat Ustaše), Soviet military prisoners of war and civilians on occupied territories including Russians and other East Slavs, the mentally or physically disabled, homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, Communists and political dissidents, trade unionists, Freemasons, Catholics, and Protestant clergy, were also persecuted and killed. Many scholars do not include the Nazi persecution of all of these groups in the definition of the Holocaust, with some scholars limiting the Holocaust to the genocide of the Jews; some to genocide of the Jews, Roma, and disabled; and some to all groups targeted by Nazi racism. Taking all these other groups into account, however, the total death toll rises considerably, estimates generally place the total number of Holocaust victims at 9 to 11 million, though some estimates have been as high as 26 million."

 

The holocaust was abut killing people who were considered minor than the Arian race. Even German mentally ill were killed in great numbers even thou they were Christians. They were considered inferior.

 

Regards

 

Bowman

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Peace from our Lord,

Holocaust is not just about the Jews. A lot of other people were killed too.

Right.

 

About 220,000 Sinti and Roma were murdered in the Holocaust (some estimates are as high as 800,000), between a quarter to a half of the European population. Other groups deemed "racially inferior" or "undesirable": Poles (5 million killed, of whom 3 million were Jewish), Serbs (estimates vary between 100,000 and 700,000 killed, mostly by Croat Ustaše), Soviet military prisoners of war and civilians on occupied territories including Russians and other East Slavs,

These were the pople killed because of their "race". Then there were the physically and mentally disabled. The other groups you mentioned were persecuted, and this included some killing, but there was no systematic killing like the holocaust.

 

Taking all these other groups into account, however, the total death toll rises considerably, estimates generally place the total number of Holocaust victims at 9 to 11 million, though some estimates have been as high as 26 million."

Depending which groups are included there, the figure 9-11 millions may be correct. The 26 millions never were a serious estimate, AFAIR it was mentioned once in a (Swiss?) newspaper shortly after the war. It is almost exclusively cited by people who want to cast doubts on the holocaust: dig out this dubious figure and refute it ... an old propaganda trick.

 

The holocaust was abut killing people who were considered minor than the Arian race. Even German mentally ill were killed in great numbers even thou they were Christians. They were considered inferior.

Since "Christian" is no race (not even by nazi terminology), the mentioning of Christians in this context does not make sense. Christians were persecuted too (although less harshly than, say, communists). The only reason why Muslims were not perseuted is probably the fact they were virtually non-existent in Germany.

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Islamic Forum comment:

We at the Islamic forum have nothing against Jews at large, we are only against Zionist Jews. In fact, there are many Jewish groups who openly reject zionism, and there are good Jews everywhere. Judiasm is the first of the three holy religions that all Muslims believe in and respect, in their true and original forms. Zionism, on the other hand, is pure evil, not just for Muslims, but for the entire human race.

 

Yes, this should be the attitude. In the Masjids around the world, imams tell stories about Moses and the early Jewish tribes. Jewish tribes and nations have been living under Muslim rulers in peace for many centuries. Some of the strongest criticism against the zionist movement comes from Jewish groups.

 

I abhor Zionist racism and the way Palestinians and Arabs are being treated by israel. But to tell you the truth, I find this article by Mr. Steele racist...

 

Peace

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Jewish tribes and nations have been living under Muslim rulers in peace for many centuries.

 

I abhor Zionist racism and the way Palestinians and Arabs are being treated by israel. But to tell you the truth, I find this article by Mr. Steele racist...

 

So jews can live under Muslim rulers but when a bunch of them are living in a region with no real borders, they are not entitled to a state just like the Palestinians who lived there.

 

Zionist racism? I abhor all racism and any zionist who also happen to be racists are pathetic. israel as a whole isn't a racist state though. I know you won't believe this but I don't know why you think it is racist?????

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So jews can live under Muslim rulers but when a bunch of them are living in a region with no real borders, they are not entitled to a state just like the Palestinians who lived there.

 

Zionist racism? I abhor all racism and any zionist who also happen to be racists are pathetic. israel as a whole isn't a racist state though. I know you won't believe this but I don't know why you think it is racist?????

 

i am open to new ideas :D

 

zionist rule over the palestinians have been exceptionally harsh. palestinian lands were forcefully confiscated, their houses demolished, and the non-jewish population were forced into refugee camps. btw, the palestinian jews were not happy to see their neighbors forced into ghettos. it is due to this injustice that palestinians have been resisting.

 

under muslim rule, the norm was that nothing of the native population would be confiscated and enjoy freedom of religion. non-muslim communities even had their own judges to judge between them. only non-muslim men had to pay a tax (depending on one's income) in lieu of military service. only if this tolerant attitude was shown towards the native palestinians...

 

peace

Edited by alameen

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Peace from our Lord,

under muslim rule, the norm was that nothing of the native population would be confiscated and enjoy freedom of religion.

No, there was no freedom of religion, it was forbidden to leave Islam. Without the right to join or leave any religion, there is no freedom, but only a limited tolerance.

 

But to the main topic of your post:

You made complaints about the way the israeli state treats the Palestinians. Your complaints are valid, but they don't say anything whether Zionism is racism or not. If you want to prove racism, please be more precise.

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saalam

 

Jews are not a race !

 

You get Arab jews .

Persian Jews .

 

Russian Jews .

Polish Jews .

 

Ethiopian Jews .

Yemeni Jews .

 

All different races .

 

 

jews are not a race, so it is impossible to be racist toward them. it also proves they are not semites, so one cant be anti-semetic toward them. it is they whom are racist and anti-semetic towards the arabs!

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saalam

 

Jews are not a race !

 

All different races .

jews are not a race, so it is impossible to be racist toward them. it also proves they are not semites, so one cant be anti-semetic toward them. it is they whom are racist and anti-semetic towards the arabs!

 

I hate to teach you english but when we say semite we mean people of middle eastern decent. We we say anti-semitic we mean discrimination against jews based on their decent as jews. This is just a quirk of the language, if you fail to accept it then you are just wrong. Ask the OED!

 

Jews aren't a race but race doesn't really have a meaning because we are all just humans. Jews are a group towards which there can be "racism" in the sense of discrimination and bigotry. Also you could say that a jew is generally only jewish if their mother is, so there is a shallow genetic pool to pick from.

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Peace from our Lord,

 

No, there was no freedom of religion, it was forbidden to leave Islam. Without the right to join or leave any religion, there is no freedom, but only a limited tolerance.

 

The level of peace and harmony that the muslims rulers usually brought, was and remains, very rare. The early muslims rulers had a deeper understanding of Islam and knew that there were more reason to trust a person than just for being a muslim. For example, Nast b. Harun, the prime minister, of Adud al-Dawlah (949-982), of the Buwayhid dyansty of Persia, who ruled over southern Persia and Iraq, was a Christian.

 

But to the main topic of your post:

You made complaints about the way the israeli state treats the Palestinians. Your complaints are valid, but they don't say anything whether Zionism is racism or not. If you want to prove racism, please be more precise.

 

Just to clarify, are you saying that the way zionists behaved towards the palestinians were racist and not the priniciples that guide zionism?

 

peace

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The level of peace and harmony that the muslims rulers usually brought, was and remains, very rare. The early muslims rulers had a deeper understanding of Islam and knew that there were more reason to trust a person than just for being a muslim. For example, Nast b. Harun, the prime minister, of Adud al-Dawlah (949-982), of the Buwayhid dyansty of Persia, who ruled over southern Persia and Iraq, was a Christian.

That does not sound as the usual rule. Usually, there has been discrimination, Jews and christians were not full citizens with the same rights than Muslims, but dhimmis. They were - and thus is almost universal for all Muslim societies - denied the right to win converts among the Muslims. In many cases they were not allowed to get into a position were they could command Muslims in any way. Your prime minister is one exception.

 

There are examples of harsh suppression up to killing:

"The Almohades conquered Cordoba in 1148, and offered the Jewish community the choice of conversion to Islam, death, or exile"

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_en.wikipedia(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/wiki/Maimonides#Biography"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_en.wikipedia(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/wiki/Maimonides#Biography[/url]

 

If You mention one extreme, please don't forget the other!

 

Just to clarify, are you saying that the way zionists behaved towards the palestinians were racist and not the priniciples that guide zionism?

I don't see that the Zionist behave in a racist way. They react to violence with violence, which causes a violent reaction, and so on ...

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:D/ peace be on you.

 

thank you for reminding me of your response.

 

That does not sound as the usual rule. Usually, there has been discrimination, Jews and christians were not full citizens with the same rights than Muslims, but dhimmis. They were - and thus is almost universal for all Muslim societies - denied the right to win converts among the Muslims. In many cases they were not allowed to get into a position were they could command Muslims in any way. Your prime minister is one exception.

 

If You mention one extreme, please don't forget the other!

I don't see that the Zionist behave in a racist way. They react to violence with violence, which causes a violent reaction, and so on ...

 

There are examples of harsh suppression up to killing:

"The Almohades conquered Cordoba in 1148, and offered the Jewish community the choice of conversion to Islam, death, or exile"

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_en.wikipedia(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/wiki/Maimonides#Biography"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_en.wikipedia(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/wiki/Maimonides#Biography[/url]

 

it doesn't sound like the usual rule according to what? trust and tolerance has always been the norm rather than exception in Islamic hisotry. there are countless other examples of this; persians, europeans, indians, chinese, indonesians, and many others brought their culture to the muslims...

 

conversion to Islam by compulsion runs contrary to the Islamic law. the quran, the sunnah, and the opinions of the classical scholars cannot be any clearer in this matter. this is why conversion by force has been a rather rare event.

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Peace from our Lord,

it doesn't sound like the usual rule according to what? trust and tolerance has always been the norm rather than exception in Islamic hisotry.

Says who?

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_en.wikipedia(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/wiki/Persecution_of_Jews#Arab_and_Ilamic"]Wikipedia[/url] gives a somewhat different impression. And the jews themselves have a even more sadding story (www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.jewishvirtuallibrary(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/jsource/anti-semitism/Jews_in_Arab_lands_(gen).html"]see here[/url]

(the list on that site is incomplete, as I learned in another forum).

 

conversion to Islam by compulsion runs contrary to the Islamic law.

Nevertheless, it has been enacted frequently in time.

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errrmmmm that article is kinda twisted. Who is Edgar J Steele?

Edited by saleri

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deleted

Edited by Yasnov

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Says who?

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_en.wikipedia(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/wiki/Persecution_of_Jews#Arab_and_Iamic"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_en.wikipedia(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/wiki/Persecution_o...rab_and_Islami

[/url]]Wikipedia gives a somewhat different impression.

Wikipedia?! Isn't that the site where everybody can write what they want?

 

And the jews themselves have a even more sadding story www.jewishvirtuallibrary(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/jsource/anti-semitism/Jews_in_Arab_lands_(gen).html

www.jewishvirtuallibrary(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/jsourc...ands_(gen).html see here

Why do you choose to use Jewish site to prove your allegations against Muslims?

 

Wassalam,

Yasnov

Edited by Yasnov

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Asalamalaykom

 

[Quran 6.108] Do not curse those who call (to worship) other than Allah, so that they don't curse Allah out of spite and ignorance. This is how We [Allah] appealed to each people its own actions; then they will be brought back to their Lord [Allah] who will inform them of what they have been doing.

 

I find this article to be rather offensive, the man who has written this does not take the subject matter seriously nor does he appear to be a righteous man, he portrays his ideas aggressivly (to me his voice is laden with anger). He cannot even talk about his views in an appropriate tone.

 

Why has this been put up?

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Wikipedia?! Isn't that the site where everybody can write what they want?

Why do you choose to use Jewish site to prove your allegations against Muslims?

 

Wassalam,

Yasnov

 

Jewish sites - boooo. Must be full of lies and unsubstanciated.

 

He probably chose them because the people most interested in the persecution of jews are... you guessed it... jews! If you want to accept anything any Muslim site says about muslims and muslim matters and history around the world, then you also have to accept the jewish sites.

 

I recommend a healthy amount of scepticism of both. There is plenty of literature out there about persecution of jews in the past, but is that really relevant if we want to move forward?

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Peace from our Lord,

He probably chose them because the people most interested in the persecution of jews are... you guessed it... jews!

Technically speaking speaking, I chose a site that described it in some detail. But it is of course no surprise it is a jewish site that speaks about persecution of jews.

 

I recommend a healthy amount of scepticism of both. There is plenty of literature out there about persecution of jews in the past, but is that really relevant if we want to move forward?

My point was to show that the usual picture of Islamic rule is rather optimistic. Those who have power tend to overlook the problems of the powerless, and are astonished when the powerless complaint about opression. So it is no wonder Muslim sources do not narrate much of the difficulties non-muslim faced in countries ruled by Muslims.

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My point was to show that the usual picture of Islamic rule is rather optimistic. Those who have power tend to overlook the problems of the powerless, and are astonished when the powerless complaint about opression. So it is no wonder Muslim sources do not narrate much of the difficulties non-muslim faced in countries ruled by Muslims.

I've discussed this issue with Livius, and I always use neutral sites. If what you said is true, why can't you find any neutral site that support your claims? And I don't ask you to use Muslims source. Livius has used bbc and I accept his source as credible. Why do you use a one-sided site for something like this?

 

Wassalam,

Yasnov

Edited by Yasnov

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I've discussed this issue with Livius, and I always use neutral sites. If what you said is true, why can't you find any neutral site that support your claims? And I don't ask you to use Muslims source. Livius has used bbc and I accept his source as credible. Why do you use a one-sided site for something like this?

Instead of talking as if a Jewish source is unreliable per se, look at the facts. If you doubt the picture of Spain after the golden era of Andalus (ca. 800-1100) ended, look for a biography of Maimonides. He even went to the land the crusaders had "liberated", after he had made bad experiences in Spain and Morocco. He finally found a quiet place in Egypt....

 

Or check the other facts given on that site. You will hardly see them bundled at one site (unless someone has an interest in Jewish history, and guess who such people are :D

 

The site I qoted does not use hate vocabulary.

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The site I qoted does not use hate vocabulary.

There are also tons of Muslims sites discussing this issue without using hate vocabulary, and your point? :D

 

Wassalam,

Yasnov

Edited by Yasnov

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