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Some Issueswith The Topic Who This Forum Is Not For!

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As-salaamu 'alaikum

 

It is very strange that Muslims who always state that other Muslims follow the scholars of the Khalaf and not the Salaf are now agreeing with brother Dot on the issue of how we should follow the scholars of the Khalaf.

 

And it would seem that some cannot have a mature discussion about the crux of the issue, and this is the Usool of everything that follows on from that.

 

Was-salaamu 'alaikum

 

Aboo Uthmaan

 

:D brother!

 

:D. You beat me by a few minutes. :D

 

slippery as an eel is what comes to mind.

 

Wassalam

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:D

 

Sory brothers but no way do we agree with the khalafis or their scholars , All we are saying is that there are certian aspects of the religion that were implemeted b4 in the old days of Islam that is impossible to implement at this day and age and thats common sense :D .

 

Maybe we should tell the ppl what the salaf really followed ?

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:D

 

Islam is the same as it was 1400 hundred years ago, the people have changed it through misinterpretation, if we all Follow Quran and Hadith then we cant go wrong

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I have to agree with you brother dot on these issues for instance again and again ppl posting about Hijrah from Kaafir lands which i find totally Absurd , they Quote Ibn Qayyim Jawziya who lived some 500 years ago if not more they say move to Islamic countries , yet these same ppl in other posts Say there are no more Islamic countries and The rulers are corrupt ????????

 

The point is You cant apply the same things in religion to all times , now the fundamentals stay as is but like the one mentioned here it is clearly not .

 

as for bida this is the Obsession of the Hardliners , everything and anything that was not around in the first century Islam is bida , which is even more Absurd and easy to prove them wrong .

 

:D

 

 

Clearly from This one aspect of hijrah you can see it is not the same and impossible to implement .

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Inability cannot be used with such generality. Fiqh does not change. That is what matters. To generalise would imply that fiqh can also change. Can we have some specifics? "Bring,, not sing" is what you say to others.

 

Any change has to be by ijma or ijtihad. The doors to adapt have not changed. But to reject issues on account of period, without a scholarly ijtihad is wrong. It is a disservice to Islam, in my opinion.

 

Yes, many things have changed, but they are immaterial to our performance of the deen. We can, for example eat with knife, fork and spoon, sitting at a dining table. If somebody does that he is not breaking any rule. And, if somebody eats with his hands, sitting on the floor, out of love for Rasool Allah :D he will probably get ajr for it.

 

Wassalam

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:D

 

Your point Al Faqeer? Looks like you have a Grudge against Salafis, Our (Salafis) principles are based on the idea of referring all matters of religion, theoretical and practical, to the Book of Allaah and the Sunnah of His Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and the consensus of the earliest generations (salaf) of this ummah, the first three generations: the generation of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), then those who followed them, then those who followed them; as well as venerating the Sunnah of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and the way of the Rightly-Guided Caliphs; loving those who follow the Sunnah, avoiding bid’ah and innovations in the religion of Allaah, both theoretical and practical, and condemning those who follow them; striving to cleanse people’s thoughts and actions of these innovations and to bring them back to the way of life of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and his companions, following his guidance and the true religion.

 

Any problem with that ?

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:D

 

You were given the Hijrah issue deal with it akhi aburafay :D shukran .

 

we bring b4 we sing :D.

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Your point Al Faqeer? Looks like you have a Grudge against Salafis, Our (Salafis) principles are based on the idea of referring all matters of religion, theoretical and practical, to the Book of Allaah and the Sunnah of His Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and the consensus of the earliest generations (salaf) of this ummah, the first three generations: the generation of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), then those who followed them, then those who followed them; as well as venerating the Sunnah of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and the way of the Rightly-Guided Caliphs; loving those who follow the Sunnah, avoiding bid’ah and innovations in the religion of Allaah, both theoretical and practical, and condemning those who follow them; striving to cleanse people’s thoughts and actions of these innovations and to bring them back to the way of life of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and his companions, following his guidance and the true religion.

 

 

:D

 

Yeah brother thats what most sects of the sunnah claim including yours .

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Yeah brother thats what most sects of the sunnah claim including yours .

 

So what does your sect claim? Please enlighten us

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irellevent to the thread , pls stay on topic :D .

 

:D

 

If you aint got an answer then dont accuse me of going off topic, clearly you have gone off topic by slandering Salafis

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The Muslim is obliged to accept the teachings of Islam, and act upon them. When he hears of some word or deed which is based on evidence (daleel) from the Qur’aan or Sunnah, then he has to accept it and give it priority over anything else. He should check what people say against the evidence of sharee’ah, and only accept those views which are in accordance with that evidence. It is known that Shaykh Muhammad ibn ‘Abd Al-Wahhaab (may Allaah have mercy on him) called people to Tawheed and he wrote his famous book on that topic which is called Kitaab al-Tawheed. In this book he limited himself to quoting only the clear evidence from the verses of the Qur’aan and the saheeh ahaadeeth of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). Commentaries on this book were written by his grandson ‘Abd al-Rahmaan ibn Hasan and other scholars. Hence none of his opponents can refute this book or claim that his evidence is false. They fabricated lies and believed them, so they believed that he was misguided. They gave the same label to the scholars of the Muslims such as Shaykh Ibn Baaz and Shaykh al-Albaani (may Allaah have mercy on them both). These shaykhs did not deviate from the correct view with regard to beliefs and actions; they followed the same path as the Sahaabah and Taabi’een, the four imaams, the authors of the Six Books and others. Those who do not acknowledge them do that either out of ignorance, blind imitation of others, jealousy, stubbornness or following their own whims and desires, or adherence to traditions, bid’ah (innovation) and evil actions that go against the evidence (of sharee’ah). Earlier and later scholars have proven such people to be wrong. So we must follow the evidence and give it priority over the views of all people.

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We are obliged to follow Muhammad Ibn Abdillah Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå æÓáã the sahaaba and the salaf full stop , anything after that secondry .

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Salaam,

 

A lot has been said about how non-Muslims on this board view the 'in depth' discussions, from my angle most of them are just confusing! When someone writes in the Q&A sections then they are careful to use phrases that people who don't speak Arabic/don't know much about Islam will understand. Having browsed through the AID section I can safely say that to someone in my situation it makes about as much sense as quantum mechanics! I think, therefore, that if people are going to take what maybe considered a more extreme view, then that is the correct forum for it.

 

This then leads onto the questions of what should happen on other boards. For the basics (Non muslim Q&A etc) then again there seems to be mainly consensus, perhaps because these boards cover the basics and these are up for less discussion.

 

It is boards where the target audiance is less clear which are the 'danger' zone. Maybe some form of poicy needs to be agreed about the ideological stance which will be taken?

 

Dot explains that IF is for non-Muslims (thank you very much btw Dot, it's a lovely forum for all of us!) to learn more about Islam. Now, as far as I see it (and no doubt someone will correct me if I am wrong!) the Qu'ran is the first and foremost source as it is seen as being eternal. The Hadith are the next most important source as they are the actions and words of Mohammed, inspired by God. Every Muslim seems to agree that in order to be a good Muslim, you use these as your guide.

 

The disputed area is over the Salaf, from this board I get the impression these are the actions of the 3 generations who cam just after Mohammed? It seems some Muslims see the actions of these people as also being an eternal source for Islamic behaviour. If it is permitted, I will introduce a Christian perspective here?

 

We obviously see the words and actions of Jesus (as reported in the Gospels) as how we should live our lives. The Gospel (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) are the first four books of the new Testament. The rules laid down here are the rules all Christians agree we must follow as they are God's eternal rules (turn the other cheek, don't cast the first stone etc). After the Gospels come a lot of other texts, many from Paul. We say while Paul may have been inspired by God, he was only mortal man, therefore his words and actions are relevent to the time. Where some are still valid (The importance of love and charity, for example) we will follow them, where they are no longer relavent to today (eg: slavery) we feel we can safely ignore them.

 

The Salaf are obviously very important people as the knew Mohammed directly, but is it not possible to see them as we Christians see Paul? Inspired by God, flawed as men?

 

Sorry if I've said anything wrong, just a lot has been said about 'non-Muslims' in this topic so I though I'd throw my two cents in and explain how it was currently looking from this side of the table!

 

Peace and Love,

 

DARLA

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As-salaamu 'alaikum

 

This is a message to all who have posted on this thread including myself, please stick to the Usool and do not continue to let this discussion degenerate into a mindless debate that gets none of us anywhere whilst leaving the issues that Dot has raised unresolved, and remember, when you differ with your brother or sister then do not take what that say personally and ensure to keep the good Islaamic etiquettes and manners whilst discussing.

 

Was-salaamu ‘alaikum

 

Aboo Uthmaan

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We are obliged to follow Muhammad Ibn Abdillah Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå æÓáã the sahaaba and the salaf full stop , anything after that secondry .

 

:D

 

So your Disagreeing with dot now ?

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The disputed area is over the Salaf, from this board I get the impression these are the actions of the 3 generations who cam just after Mohammed? It seems some Muslims see the actions of these people as also being an eternal source for Islamic behaviour. If it is permitted, I will introduce a Christian perspective here?

 

Sis darla the salaf are the first three generations after the Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم

 

the prophet PBUH has said in this hadeeth sis darla :

 

Volume 3, Book 48, Number 819:

Narrated Zahdam bin Mudrab:

 

I heard Imran bin Husain saying, "The Prophet said, 'The best people are those living in my generation, then those coming after them, and then those coming after (the second generation)." Imran said "I do not know whether the Prophet mentioned two or three generations after your present generation. The Prophet added, 'There will be some people after you, who will be dishonest and will not be trustworthy and will give witness (evidences) without being asked to give witness, and will vow but will not fulfill their vows, and fatness will appear among them."

 

I dont see any comparison between the salaf and the men that followed jesus it 2 totally different scenarios .

 

peace sis

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So your Disagreeing with dot now ?

 

:D

 

not at all brother , I am disagreeing with the following the khalaf , but made the point that not all aspects of releigion implemeted in the old days of Islam can be done now and i proved it with the hijrah example .

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i agree that this is impossible to follow for new muslims or non muslims. ive researched a couple of words but it would take me all day to follow it. howvever. it is not their fault. when two knowledgable fellas get stuck in, they are not thinking about us. it is us , if we want to understand whom must learn.

 

what make Islam so strong is its ability to keep going back to its roots. where as christianity is weakened by its so called progressiveness. which in fact is moral degredation.

 

the closer one stays with the original teachings in the koran, i believe, is closer to what god had in mind.

 

zukiful.

 

an article i found on the salafis. hope its relevant.

 

 

 

Who are the Salafis?

 

A “Salafi†is a person who was one of the early Muslim followers of the Prophet Mohammed. But in the modern era, Salafi has come to denote a Muslim who adheres to the early and literal doctrines of Islam. The term has, thus, come to be associated with the developments of orthodox or fundamentalist Islam. A Salafi gives a literalist interpretation of the early Islamic faith as lived by the Prophet Mohammed, his companions and the generations of scholars that followed him.

 

The Salafis look to this early period of Islam as the definitive source of religious authority, urging their fellow Muslims to adopt this interpretation of Islam as a means of finding a route out of the many problems that have beset Muslim societies throughout the twentieth and twenty-first centuries. The Salafi movement has been strong in Egypt in the early twentieth century and is often seen in the expression of Islam in Saudi Arabia. The form of Salafi belief in Saudi Arabia is known as Wahabbism.

 

Salafi thinking has found expression not only in theological debates about how to interpret Islam (ijtihad), it questions the authority of those who traditionally have been accepted as qualified to interpret Islam. Some radical Salafi thinkers promote jihad as a means to transform Muslim societies. The Salafi critique of Islam blames both the West and governments allied to the West for deviating from the true path of Islam -- these advocates are known as neo-Salafis or Salafi Jihadi .

 

The majority of the Salafi movement are inherently peaceful and have over 30 million adherents. But the extremist strand has employed violence through a call to jihad. Salafi Jihadis call for an end to the western “occupation†of Muslim lands, as well as an end to all western influences. These Salafi Jihadis view the Saudi royal family and the leaders of Egypt and Pakistan as corrupted collaborators of the anti-Muslim western program.

 

:D

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Salaam,

 

Al-Faqeer, I'm sorry for my misunderstanding! Thank you for the article on the Salafi (Zukiful) and also the quote justifying following their actions (Al-Faqeer), it makes things clearer!

 

Obviously concerning our views on the value of the progressiveness of Christianity we will have to agree to disagree :D

 

 

Peace and Love,

 

DARLA

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darla_1753

 

openly gay and femail priests. peadophile priests. are onlt 3 examples of christian degredation through your 'progressiveness.

 

and you dissagree???

 

 

sorry im getting off topic. i just had to..... :D

 

:D

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:sl:

 

darla_1753

 

openly gay and femail priests. peadophile priests. are onlt 3 examples of christian degredation through your 'progressiveness.

 

and you dissagree???

sorry im getting off topic. i just had to..... :D

 

:wa:

As-salaamu 'alaikum

 

I do not believe this kind of dialogue to be particularly helpful, and rather than it being a source to help non Muslims understand Islaam it is something which will drive them away, so in future it would be prudent to stick to the fundamental beliefs of our religion, and I say this as a former non Muslim.

 

Was-salaamu ‘alaikum

 

Aboo Uthmaan

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darla_1753

 

openly gay and femail priests. peadophile priests. are onlt 3 examples of christian degredation through your 'progressiveness.

 

and you dissagree???

sorry im getting off topic. i just had to..... :D

 

:D

 

Salaam Zukiful,

 

Paedolphile (can anyone spell that?!) priests are certainly very bad and no-one denies that, however, this evil is not caused by the progressiveness of the church, rather by these priests individual corruption. The church condemns all form of paedophilia as inappropriate. Please remember it is Iran which has legalised the marriage of girls from the age of nine on religious grounds (as stated in another post on this topic in 'anti-Islamic refutations', whilst this may be acceptable 1500 years ago, in this day and age it is not).

 

The issue of Gay vicars (priests are Catholic, the Catholic church condemns homosexulaity for all its members and Priests may not partake in any form of sexual activity with anybody(the same goes for nuns and monks)) is one which is still under discussion in the Anglican church I believe, as I am not Cof E I couldn't comment on their discussions.

 

Dispite my being Catholic, I personally can't see anything wrong with female priests howver I feel as that is a view not shared by many of my fellow Christians it would be off-topic for here. the logic against them seems to be based in Paul (who most view as, frankly, mysogenistic) and the fact the Gospels tell us the 12 disciples were male.

 

I would say that the progressive elements of Christianity that you look down on is its main strength as it allows change (we ignore what Paul says on slavery as being inappropriate for this day and age, for example) whilst keeping to the most fundamental aspects of it; I love my God, I try and turn the other cheek, I love you as I love my neighbour and try and treat others in the way I would like to be treated.

 

In the meantime I would ask you to please not take isolated examples of bad practice as a comment on a whole religion, remember it is possible to do that for anything and can cause offense to some people.

 

Hmm, despite the earlier comment about off topic it would appear I have erred here, alas, I'd discuss through PM if I had privileges, now I can only ask for a moderator to move this into a more suitable forum? If you would like to continue this discussion further then please PM me as I think I can respond to PMs, just not start them.

 

Love and Peace,

 

DARLA

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:D

 

darla_1753.

 

you can start a thread in the q &a for non muslims section. im sure you'll be obliged.

 

the thread is titled;

 

have christian morals been eroded? how?

In the meantime I would ask you to please not take isolated examples of bad practice as a comment on a whole religion, remember it is possible to do that for anything and can cause offense to some people.

 

im sure there are many here would agree with you.

 

 

 

:D

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I feel honored that some of the best heavyweight members joined this discussion.

Brother aburafay, you were not in my mind at all when I made that topic. I say that because I notice you take a defencive side, where actually its me who should always be humbled compared to your knowledge masha'Allah. And actually, you, and the prestigous brother aboo uthman, are 2 perfect examples of how you can be a salafi and moderate in the same time, allowing others to differ, and trying always to give both sides of rulings on different issue. You put balance back to this community, which gets shaken usually by those who never stop dragging us to their useless debates on minor issues.

 

Thanks dear darla for the useful input, and yes, your side of the table is very important to me, where I can learn a few to improve our community. Actually, I read your suggestion carefully. I was discussing the same issue the other day with the IF team, and we're in the process of adding a couple of new rules, and adjustment of a few forum settings and permissions, to put the balance back to the forum, in a way that better serves the interests of the non-Muslims who come here with a sincere intention to understand Islam in a nutshell (and thats what we should really get ourselves busy with in the first place), while still giving space to those who want to make a fight and stuff :D

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