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3dshocker

I Have Officially Declared War On Muslims

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Reminder - this thread is about religion+dictatorship vs freedom+democracy

My stance is that only one of these ideologies may pevail and hence we are at a world wide political war. Read the above series of posts instead of responding to this alone!

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PropellerAds

lol 3d, (gets his references from word definitions of a dictionary.. hmm..intereting) No wonder then that you don't believe that anything created you.

 

And, it looks like I didn't make myself clear there, 3d. I was saying that western democracy are fair and just to the poeple of a given country. Take the uk for example, its democracy, known to be a leader in world democarcies, is fair and just for the english people. But its not fair to other countries, and I gave you the example of 19th and 20th century's colonization of too many countries to count. So, in short, your democratic system will not stop you from oppressing other peoples, and committing crimes in far away lands and overseas, where as in Islam, this is not permissible. Islam dictates fairness and just, not only for the country its implementing, but for the entire population of man on earth. Following an Islamic system would then ensure a world of peace and justice to all humans, not peace and justice to those only who have the power or buttons to blow other nations. You may one day be asked to vote whether you agree to nuke a country a or b. To you that is democracy as your voice is accounted for. In Islam, the atomic bomb itself is haram (not permissible in sharia) simply because it would definitely kill civilians. So which is more important? individual democracy, or just and fairness to all the human race?

 

This is more important than your so called freedom of speech. The american people's freedom of speech didnt stop bush from killing 1 million iraqi children over a span of 12 years of hunger and lack of medicine, plus 1000's o air strikes that you know little about, and then at least 100,000 iraqis in the ongoing war. The same freedom of speech didn't stop blair.

 

Islam values the interests of the community ahead of the interests of the individual. This may be hard for you to come to terms with, as you literally almost worship the freedom of the individual. That is not to say that people would be oppressed in an ideal Islamic system, on the contrary. But the community always comes first. Thats why you'll end up with a community free of social desease, safe, and healthy for all peoples ie. all nations, in an ideal Islamic system.

 

The key is: democracy guarded and tamed against man's instinctive selfishness and individualism. And although I know you don't belive in God, but its God who actually created you and me from dust. And its The manufacurer who author user manuals. But unlike other religions, Islam is not just a religion, its a complete way of life that covers everything you'll ever deal with in a lifetime, and beyond.

 

Your sytem brought you to an understanding that its either you or us, and new world war, while our system smoothly brings me to understand that we can co-exist in peace and harmony.

 

Any human-made system to govern people is no way comparable to, or in perfection like that authored by the one who made us all, who knows the secrets of ourselves better than we ourselves do.

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1st and foremost, you stated two kinds of governments, a democracy and a dictatorship/monarchy and explained why each wouldnt work, and i thought you were implying that Islam is a monarchy, which as i said, its not a system of government

 

secondly

so where do you think the basic laws that run our society come from? if it werent for religion or for god, then as i said, we would be just like animals. and you shouldnt disagree b/c you obviously beleive in evolution(no creator) which means that you think we are animals, just a different species.. so if we are "animals"(i never like to degrade myself to that level) then how come we are the only ones who discovered the civil laws? other animals have no problem killing themselves, however humans ended up with it b/c of religion.

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Islam's history begins before the Ottoman's lisa,

 

and Christendom declared "Holy War" on Islam during the crusades.

The words Holy War were first introduced by Pope Urban, so that term is a Christian term, not a Muslim one...

 

Muslim's didn't pervert Christianity, You have your clergy to thank for that...

 

 

Yes, and we now have our current governments to thank for perverting both our religions in order that we should kill each other over it. If New Testament trumps Old Testament according to Catholic doctrine, Catholics should be leading the efforts towards peace and friendship. Instead we're not. We occupy a country under false pretences of danger ("Weapons of Mass Destruction"), which we later admit to being wrong about, all for the sake of record Exxon profits.

 

It's not a religious battle, it's a political one. Religious doctrines are the glue that hold the 'unwashed masses' together.

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This may be hard for you to come to terms with, as you literally almost worship the freedom of the individual.

That my friend is dead on. I'm guessing it's a pshycological thing about my background that made me value individuality over the community.

 

Here's a little about my background that might give a glimpse of my personality. :D

 

Conforming with traditional Indian/ Sri Lankan values the head of the family is the father, followed by my mother, and anyone else older. Further more I must submit myself to and respect everyone in the family who is older then me regardless of what they are like - "Fair" has nothing to do with anything in this heirarchy. This is Indian/Sri Lankan Culture. Let's just say I really wasn't happy with my life and whenever I questioned the golden principle of "respect your elders" the only response I got was that they were older then me, and have more experience therefore they know what is best. I never did accept this logic as it is full of holes and doesn't make sense - atleast to me. I hated being weak and picked on so I started weight lifting. The next fight I got into with my brother was about 10 months after I started weight lifting. I sent him to the hospital :D and we've never got in a fight since (his right arm is kinda no good), anywho this was a turning point in my life cuz I realized I'm becoming strong enough to fight for what I believe in. I speak my mind freely now. I have made those in my family who haven't realized it that I am not like every other member of the family who will not question their authority if they are older. I don't take intimidation lightly and everyone knows they will not get my respect for free or by virtue of them being older. I have labelled all those in my family who continue to conform with traditional Indian/Sri Lankan values as conservatives and blast them on their views everytime they bring it up. I HATE the conservative mind as it halts progress. I myself as a liberal am one of the few people in the expanse of my rather large family (3 grandparents,8 uncles, 6 aunts included) to have several friends who are of Sri Lankan, Chinese, Pakistani, Vietnamese, Canadian (white), Indian. We are all free minded liberals who have thrown away the conservative mindset our previous generations had that prevented us from associating with eachother. Infact our respective parents still don't approve of the circle of friends I'm part of. Parents who see whites as evil rascists, chinese as untrustable communists, and brown people as terrorists. These are all conservative adults with stereo types against various groups, but my entire circle of friends could care less about the heirarchy of demanded respect, the parents may not approve but quite frankly we don't give a **** and still hang out :D

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We of the younger free minded generation will always continue to ridicule our elders for their conservative and (what we see as) childish immature views on topics such as gay marriage, abortion, authority of elders, stereotypes against various people of various backgrounds, and the biggest of them all, the religion they say we must live our lives by. I don't know how you see it, but we see religion as one big giant ball and chain.

 

I think you will now see why I support the rights of the individual over society any day. I believe it is better to allow people to operate in their own self interest then it is to force them to follow guidelines to on how to live as a functional community. This is basically once again, freedom vs religion - we mentioned nothing of political power but throwing it in it would become freedom+democracy vs religion+dictatorship.

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1st and foremost, you stated two kinds of governments, a democracy and a dictatorship/monarchy and explained why each wouldnt work, and i thought you were implying that Islam is a monarchy, which as i said, its not a system of government

 

secondly

so where do you think the basic laws that run our society come from? if it werent for religion or for god, then as i said, we would be just like animals. and you shouldnt disagree b/c you obviously beleive in evolution(no creator) which means that you think we are animals, just a different species.. so if we are "animals"(i never like to degrade myself to that level) then how come we are the only ones who discovered the civil laws? other animals have no problem killing themselves, however humans ended up with it b/c of religion.

I don't think I said each wouldn't or couldn't work. They work perfectly and have been used in the past and present successfully. I'm saying they are incompatible in the same world the moment you tie religion with dictarship by god and freedom with democracy (dictatorship by the majority of people if it helps u c my point).

 

About the basic laws, okay, seriously man you're going off topic. If you want to discuss origins of moral code then feel free to open thread and I'll give you my views on it. For starters I'll tell you right now that if you think animals are mindless drones and have no problem killing themselves then you seriously need to check out national geographic special on any animal of your choice.

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We of the younger free minded generation will always continue to ridicule our elders for their conservative and (what we see as) childish immature views on topics such as gay marriage, abortion, authority of elders, stereotypes against various people of various backgrounds, and the biggest of them all, the religion they say we must live our lives by. I don't know how you see it, but we see religion as one big giant ball and chain.

 

I think you will now see why I support the rights of the individual over society any day. I believe it is better to allow people to operate in their own self interest then it is to force them to follow guidelines to on how to live as a functional community. This is basically once again, freedom vs religion - we mentioned nothing of political power but throwing it in it would become freedom+democracy vs religion+dictatorship.

 

If you were so 'free minded', you would not say that "WE see religion as one big ball and chain". You and your friends might think so, but "we" do not. I suppose that's just being close minded of me, to assume that not everyone thinks the same. You do not speak for "we" just as I don't speak for "we".

 

Thanks!

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3d,

I'm shocked!

But you just gave me a living example of all I've been trying to prove to you.

Your version of democracy and freedom of individuals are so short-sighted. I'm surprised that anyone can come with a theory that we can replace family values with weight lifting. Man, I really ROFL reading this..you're so funny. You can't share my laughter now, but wait till you become a father and old enough yourself, then tell me if you can laugh then!!!

You see, thats what happens when you drop religion out of your life. If the world took your advice, earth will turn into an open jungle, or a boxing arena at best. Thats where your individuality takes you.. no respect for any value, not for even your parents. Thats where religion shines my friend. It puts limits and control to man's desires of power and lust. Remove religion, and everything collapse. Without those same values that you insult and fight, you wouldn't have a family in the first place, and you'll probably had found yourself in some foster house. Its because your parents are respectful and values that they got married and raised you in a secure environment, only to discover that they raised a beast?! I'm may be too old compared to your age, but you will also come to that, and swab places. How would you then like the idea of your sons training to deal with you?

 

Now I know what type of freedom you're after.

My sincere advice to you is to:

- change the circle of your friends

- start reading some about Islam.

If you do, insh'Allah you'll find peace and tranquility with yourself and soul, and please everyone around you, not just yourself.

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3d,

 

I'm 100% for freedom, but even Democracy has its limits. You're imposing what we'd call an Anarchy. Democracy is free rule as one within a body; Anarchy is free rule by one outside a body.

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To 3rdshocker:

What's your goal? what is it that you seek?

If you already know what response your question will yield and know the reason behind that response as well, then why ask?

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um...it's "3D".

 

anywho, my goal is to either solidify to change my beliefs on the following matter.

 

*Religion is a simply a set of rules that governs how life should be lived. The rules themselves have been set in stone by god alone as it is he/she/it that dictates how human life should properly be lived.

 

*These rules that govern life are limits on how it should be lived. Hence they are restraints on life --> "you may do this, you may not do that, if this happens do this, if that happens do that, 10 commandments and its equivilancies in other religions etc".

 

*The more restraints by religion you have, the closer it becomes to a society enslaved by god.

 

 

 

*Now then, freedom in its absolute form is simply no bounds, no rules, no regulations. So [at] the undertaker, absollute freedom itself is what is known as anarchy. In an absolutely free society people are free to do whatever they want.

 

*This is a terrible thing, however I prefer this absolute freedom as opposed to absolute restraint because with absolute freedom you have some control over your life where as with absolute restraint you have none. Tack on the fact that its religious restraints and you become a slave of god.

 

 

To become more free means to reduce the restraints placed on you. Since religion is a restraint on almost every aspect of life, it follows that to become free most of the restrains that you must free yourself of are religious restraints. That is freedom from god.

 

Free society and democracy have become tied because democracy is essentially rule by the majority of people, blah blah blah, you know the rest if you have read the previous post.

 

- Free democractic society supports the right do anything with the exception of roughly 3 things.

- Religious dictatorship based society support the limitations placed on the freedom to do anything and damns those who attempt to surpass these limits since theycommitted blasphemy.

 

Considering the conflict these two ways of society are in, one must wipe out the other. Free democractic society has wiped out religious dictatorship based society in europe, and the west - it is why we do not attempt to silence those who attack god (we're not very attached to him/her/it).

 

*What do I seek? I seek to get as much feedback on this topic as I can, preferably opposition. This is the reality I see, I've been proven wrong before, might be proven wrong this time, but I to get feedback from decent opposition I have to go to the place where religion is indeed accepted as a way of life - an Islamic forum :D

 

[at]dot - first question - no, i prefer having a diverse group of friends

- second question - definitely can't, as a philosophy student I have yet to encounter a proposal for gods existence that is based on logic. Reading a religious book that assumes the existence of god seems absurd. I'm an atheist remember? I would like any recommendation on philosophical works that point to the existence of god though :D

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again, i didnt read your whole post, just the beginnig

 

absolute freedom is better than restraint... well is it? you must understand that these laws that we follow, the quran and the sunnah of the prophet(PBUH) are for OUR good, they only help us. Of course, every human has a choice, i dont have to be a muslim, i can do whatever i want, but i chose to(the best of my ability) follow these rules because i know they are for my own good, and i know where ill end up if i dont follow these rules

 

no pun intended, but say in your house when you were a kid, the rule was do not stick your hand into the fire. Thats something i would take and go by it b/c i know its for the good of me. What you are doing is saying, well no, thats wrong, thats not freedom, i chose to go stick my hand in the fire

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i just completed reading your post, and upon saying that reading a book which assumes the existance of god(not to mention it IS the word of god) is absurd, in reality, denying the existence of god is absurd, but thats a whole different topic...

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[at]dot - first question - no, i prefer having a diverse group of friends

- second question - definitely can't, as a philosophy student I have yet to encounter a proposal for gods existence that is based on logic. Reading a religious book that assumes the existence of god seems absurd. I'm an atheist remember? I would like any recommendation on philosophical works that point to the existence of god though :D

 

Hi 3D,

 

I don't think you've REALLY done your reading yet :D I'm guessing you're a 2nd year student doing your bachelor's.

 

When you get around to it, you will see that debates, based on logic, over the existence of God have been around since dust. Well, not really but you get the idea.

 

Once you actually do the reading you claim, please let us know if anyone is able to disprove the existence of God based on logic. You'll see that it's a dead end.

 

This is why, in conjunction with the word 'religion', you so often hear the word 'faith'.

 

:D

 

Peace,

AS

 

PS- I'll try to dig up those links you requested. A friend of mine, non-Muslim/theist, sent them to me within the past few months.

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I see your point.

here is some feedback then.

knowing the prehistory and birth of many religions, you can speculate why a religion must exist , that is to give us a set of universal and ethical rules, a discipline that otherwise an archaic society is bound to lack.

To have a true sense of authencity and means of enforcement, the rules are said to be of divine significance as people would rather not oppose god(s).

The fact that one must not overlook is that religious teachings are somewhat insensitive to change in time, the problem is that the world is everchanging but the rules are "written in stone".

If you turn to science or human intelligence you will face the same problem.

With some effort you can see why it's almost impossible to construct a universal rules of conduct that can maintain it's significance in respect to time.

religion thus has a limit , one posed by time , a dimension that's not tangible yet perhaps the most significant aspect of reality.

The roots of Religion thus remain on the foundation of Belief and not solely on logic that can be proved and it's application in physical world not free of flaws due to this dimesion of time we live in.

Both religion and cosmology fail to provide us with an adequate explaination of primary cause. what started it all?If god can exists forever than why can't the universe be that way? etc.

It's hard to conceptualize a primary cause that caused itself since we live in the time dimesion.

It's all about the matter of premise than,in my opinion, we simply don't know as we don't have enough information to reach a solid conclusion.It's all about assumptions and what sounds more probable to you.

Hope it makes sense.

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:D

 

sinse the beggining of man, he has believed in god/s. every race of people, in all parts of the world had their gods. why is that?

 

it is because man is a spiritual being, of that no one can deny. every person feels the need to be closer to god. even the athiests here, 'why are you here'? because they want to be closer to god. even if they dont know it. why would an athiest bother to post on any religious forum? if you didnt have an interest in motorbikes would you post on their forums perhaps 1000 times? of course not. but athiests do that here!!!

 

there is a god. how can there be none? god is in all of us. we seek him out. we can feel him there. we are spiritual beings. we were made to be. we are part of that greater power. we were made to be.

 

'there is no god worthy of worship besides Allah, and muhammad is the messenger of Allah'.

 

:D

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:D

 

sinse the beggining of man, he has believed in god/s. every race of people, in all parts of the world had their gods. why is that?

 

it is because man is a spiritual being, of that no one can deny. every person feels the need to be closer to god. even the athiests here, 'why are you here'? because they want to be closer to god. even if they dont know it. why would an athiest bother to post on any religious forum? if you didnt have an interest in motorbikes would you post on their forums perhaps 1000 times? of course not. but athiests do that here!!!

 

there is a god. how can there be none? god is in all of us. we seek him out. we can feel him there. we are spiritual beings. we were made to be. we are part of that greater power. we were made to be.

 

'there is no god worthy of worship besides Allah, and muhammad is the messenger of Allah'.

 

:D

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OOps :D sorry about the double post

 

I hate to get into a classical theological debate, but It's often hard to side step that.

man is into spirituality since man thinks. What created itself and the physical world.

belief in god then is rational but not to the extent of theology.

To assume a certain set of charasteristics as done by abrahamic faiths (omnipotent, omnibenevolence,and omniscient) and the notion of praying to it is not rational once you follow the argument through.

peace

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:D

 

belief in god then is rational but not to the extent of theology.

To assume a certain set of charasteristics as done by abrahamic faiths (omnipotent, omnibenevolence,and omniscient) and the notion of praying to it is not rational once you follow the argument through.

peace

 

you and i both know that it depends whose doing the arguing! but feel free to follow the argument through for us. and well decide if you are rational! :D

 

:D

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Ilogical,

you said:

"religion thus has a limit , one posed by time , a dimension that's not tangible yet perhaps the most significant aspect of reality."

 

Then you must have missed studying the Quran. Your saying is true with every religion, except Islam. Why? because God decided to send us Islam as the last chance of a message that man will ever get. And because of that, He released 'some' of his knoweldge and passed them to us humans in the Quran, which He knew we will only understand centuries later. And He made it so flexible and adabting to the future that it can be followed in any time by any race.

That knoweldge is still unfolding to date, and only recently, many of the sientific finding that we knew of lately, were mentioned in that book 14,00 years ago. Islam is not just a religion too, its a complete way of life that caters for man in ak times, to the end of time.

 

Have a look at our download section, where there are several interesting ebooks on those issues.

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.gawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/show.php/showforum/13.html"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.gawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/show.php/showforum/13.html[/url]

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3D,

you mentioned that religion is a dictatorship from God, and that why you don't accept it as it goes against your worship of free speech and freedom without boundaies or limits. Know 3D that not only God dictated the rules for us, but He also decides when to take your life back, and there is nothing you can do to stop Him, can you. Whether you accept it or not makes no difference, fact is that we are but just a possession of God. He created us in the shape and form that we are in now, you didn't have a say in that did you? whats free speech compared to that?

 

You're an athiest,, fine no problem. You believe that you're a product of nature?. Fine.. its just a different naming, what you call nature, we call God. No big deal. You belive you're the product of pure science?, fine..its just a difference in naming .. you call Him science, we call Him God, no big deal. Born absolutely out of coincidence? fine.. again, you call Him coincedence, we call Him God. In all cases, whatever your thinking takes you, 'something' created you, right?. Fine,,no big deal, you call it 'something', we call it God.

 

You can bang your head in the rocks of a mountain all day. The result will be fractures in your head, but the mountain will still be un-affected. Its then best to cope with the situation, accept what you're here for, and live by the rules instead of fighting them and injure yourself.

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:D and peace to all

3D,

you mentioned that religion is a dictatorship from God, and that why you don't accept it as it goes against your worship of free speech and freedom without boundaies or limits. Know 3D that not only God dictated the rules for us, but He also decides when to take your life back, and there is nothing you can do to stop Him, can you. Whether you accept it or not makes no difference, fact is that we are but just a possession of God. He created us in the shape and form that we are in now, you didn't have a say in that did you? whats free speech compared to that?

 

You're an athiest,, fine no problem. You believe that you're a product of nature?. Fine.. its just a different naming, what you call nature, we call God. No big deal. You belive you're the product of pure science?, fine..its just a difference in naming .. you call Him science, we call Him God, no big deal. Born absolutely out of coincidence? fine.. again, you call Him coincedence, we call Him God. In all cases, whatever your thinking takes you, 'something' created you, right?. Fine,,no big deal, you call it 'something', we call it God.

 

You can bang your head in the rocks of a mountain all day. The result will be fractures in your head, but the mountain will still be un-affected. Its then best to cope with the situation, accept what you're here for, and live by the rules instead of fighting them and injure yourself.

 

Just wanna say what a great reply Brother dot masha'Allah :D

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Hi 3D,

 

I don't think you've REALLY done your reading yet :D I'm guessing you're a 2nd year student doing your bachelor's.

 

When you get around to it, you will see that debates, based on logic, over the existence of God have been around since dust. Well, not really but you get the idea.

 

Once you actually do the reading you claim, please let us know if anyone is able to disprove the existence of God based on logic. You'll see that it's a dead end.

 

This is why, in conjunction with the word 'religion', you so often hear the word 'faith'.

 

:D

 

Peace,

AS

 

PS- I'll try to dig up those links you requested. A friend of mine, non-Muslim/theist, sent them to me within the past few months.

From what I've learned, there is no logical basis to prove or disprove the existence of god :D

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You can bang your head in the rocks of a mountain all day. The result will be fractures in your head, but the mountain will still be un-affected. Its then best to cope with the situation, accept what you're here for, and live by the rules instead of fighting them and injure yourself.

What does this have to do with anything? :D

 

I don't believe in god, but i can formulate my own way of life, and I can assure you at worst ad bang my head once, say "aaaw sh** this hurts!" and not do it again. Humans have the ability to reason (verb).

 

P.S. once again your presuming the existence of god while talking with an atheist - this is going to get us nowhere. Perhaps a debate thread on the existence of god would help.

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