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3dshocker

I Have Officially Declared War On Muslims

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3d,

 

I'm 100% for freedom, but even Democracy has its limits. You're imposing what we'd call an Anarchy. Democracy is free rule as one within a body; Anarchy is free rule by one outside a body.

I'm not sure if you saw what I posted on the bottom of page #3, but in case you hadn't here it is again. Since you're not looking for a Theistic input, these are my Atheistic thoughts.

Edited by Undertaker

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PropellerAds
Ilogical,

you said:

"religion thus has a limit , one posed by time , a dimension that's not tangible yet perhaps the most significant aspect of reality."

 

Then you must have missed studying the Quran. Your saying is true with every religion, except Islam. Why? because God decided to send us Islam as the last chance of a message that man will ever get. And because of that, He released 'some' of his knoweldge and passed them to us humans in the Quran, which He knew we will only understand centuries later. And He made it so flexible and adabting to the future that it can be followed in any time by any race.

That knoweldge is still unfolding to date, and only recently, many of the sientific finding that we knew of lately, were mentioned in that book 14,00 years ago. Islam is not just a religion too, its a complete way of life that caters for man in ak times, to the end of time.

 

Have a look at our download section, where there are several interesting ebooks on those issues.

(www.)"http://gawaher/show.php/showforum/13.html"]gawaher/show.php/showforum/13.html[/url]

Dot. You reply is evident of the fact that you didn't understand the sentences in quote.

Does Quran say anything about Cars, computers or the quantum theory? No.. because these things were not around at that times. About prophecies, einstein made prophecies lik ethe exact time of eclipse, does that make him a prophet?

Complete way of lifestyle you say but does lifestyle change? Yes. Does the teachings of quran change ? No. Do you see the problem?

Example:The prophet used to travel on horseback or camels, that's the sunnah. How do you travel?

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Guest amani
Complete way of lifestyle you say but does lifestyle change? Yes. Does the teachings of quran change ? No. Do you see the problem?

 

 

Hey :D

 

as for above question, no i dont see a problem. my question to you. have you read the Quran? :D

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3D,

you mentioned that religion is a dictatorship from God

 

kk, I think theres an important point to be made here.

 

I think we can agree that since you believe in god, the following analogy works:

 

You're in the ocean, god's a life gaurd and he has tossed you the lifeline of religion (that floating donut shaped thing that prevents you from sinking) so that you will not drown or wander off into dangerous territory in the ocean.

 

I'm in the ocean, and I have have same floating donut shaped thing. I see no life gaurd, I see only the floating donut of religion that prevents me from sinking and swimming away.

 

Now niether of us can actually see the lifegaurd for he cannot be detected by our senses. (just pick a reason i.e. he's too far away).

 

I cannot sense the lifegaurd and thus I cannot successfully conclude whether he exists or not. Considering his existence questionable I see the religious donut as a chain preventing me from escaping. I want to throw it away (as I have) so I may explore the depths and expanse of the ocean not knowing what awaits me.

 

Through a leap of faith you believe in the existence of the lifegaurd though you cannot sense his existence. You embrace the religious donut as you do indeed see it as a lifeline.

 

Agreed?

 

P.S. For those who take this as knock at religion - donuts taste pretty damn good :D

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kk, I think theres an important point to be made here.

 

I think we can agree that since you believe in god, the following analogy works:

 

You're in the ocean, god's a life gaurd and he has tossed you the lifeline of religion (that floating donut shaped thing that prevents you from sinking) so that you will not drown or wander off into dangerous territory in the ocean.

 

I'm in the ocean, and I have have same floating donut shaped thing. I see no life gaurd, I see only the floating donut of religion that prevents me from sinking and swimming away.

 

Now niether of us can actually see the lifegaurd for he cannot be detected by our senses. (just pick a reason i.e. he's too far away).

 

I cannot sense the lifegaurd and thus I cannot successfully conclude whether he exists or not. Considering his existence questionable I see the religious donut as a chain preventing me from escaping. I want to throw it away (as I have) so I may explore the depths and expanse of the ocean not knowing what awaits me.

 

Through a leap of faith you believe in the existence of the lifegaurd though you cannot sense his existence. You embrace the religious donut as you do indeed see it as a lifeline.

 

Agreed?

 

P.S. For those who take this as knock at religion - donuts taste pretty damn good :D

 

Yeah, but um, one question. Where'd the donut/life saver come from and why are we in the ocean?

 

Ok, also, I thought this was about government, are you purposely ignoring my direction on Democracy vs. Anarchy?

Edited by Undertaker

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So [at] the undertaker, absollute freedom itself is what is known as anarchy. In an absolutely free society people are free to do whatever they want.

 

I did not ignore you comrade, though perhaps I didn't give the anarchy matter enough attention. I just don't see the sense in considering Democracy vs Anarchy.

 

For those that don't know a true democracy itself is much more then just majority rule. We do not have a true democracy in the west but the majority rule part is working quite well. This halfassed democracy of ours is simply the tyranny of the everchanging majority on the everchanging minority. The strength of a democracy is measured by how well people are able to disocciate (sp?) themselves from it without facing the wrath of the majority.

 

Anarchy on the other hand is a type of chaos. Anything goes. Democracy by virtue of what it is, does place limits on what can be done. Anything cannot bedone, only what the majority agrees can be done is within your rights that they have assigned to you. If they decide killing is bad, and you kill someone, they will kill you - bloody hypocrites - this is a very simple example full of holes but it gets the point accross effectively. You cannot have anarchy and democracy in the same place, though they are only a few steps away from eachother.

 

P.S. Majority is fickle relative so it is never absolute.

- There are 11 girls and 9 boys. 5 girls are wearing red, 6, boys are wearing red, the other 6 girls are wearing blue, the other 4 boys are wearing blue.

- the majority of kids are wearing red (11)

- the majority of kids are girls (11)

- the majority of girls are not wearing red :D

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:D

 

 

 

 

majority rule part is working quite well.

 

gore got the majority of votes but bush rules?

 

 

 

:D

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:D

gore got the majority of votes but bush rules?

:D

by quite well I mean for the most part. Doing a pretty good job of maintaing majority rule does not mean it happens everytime. That being said, what is the ratio of elections where the majority got who they wanted as opposed to when they got who they didn't want?

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:D

 

as i dont know that much about day to day US domestic political affairs i cant give you many examples. (but i think you could 3d!).

 

the large majority of americans want illegal immigrants stopped from crossing the mex border. however your government does relitavely little to stop it. millions a year are crossing. it is really an invasion. how is your democracy working there? have you other examples 3d?

 

 

:D

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:D

 

as i dont know that much about day to day US domestic political affairs i cant give you many examples. (but i think you could 3d!).

 

the large majority of americans want illegal immigrants stopped from crossing the mex border. however your government does relitavely little to stop it. millions a year are crossing. it is really an invasion. how is your democracy working there? have you other examples 3d?

:D

I'm not american? Though I did run accross a few articles about ppl saying they gotta beef up the border. Sumthin like 2 billion for border patrol in arizona or sumthing like that. I don't remember the source nor do I care enough about it to go googling for it. I think the issue with the mex/us border is that the US cannot stop people from crossing over even though they have always tried to stop them. That's a pretty damn big stretch of land. It's a matter of how hard they try to stop it. If it becomes a forefront issue like it did in arizona, more attention may be given to it, blah blah blah, so forth.

 

P.S. I am canadian and I'm damn glad I don't live under the american government. Though it is a good place to live, my beef with living there is that they privitized all health care and now america has a health care industry - though not everyone realizes it for what it is.

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llogical,

cars? computers? you seem to think the Quran is a products catalog man. Its not my friend, but far more serious stuff is there. Stuff that only scientists can appreciate and value. They did in the past, doing now, and will continue to do as man unfolds more findings in space, biology, earth sciences and more. But mind you, the Quran is not a science magazine either, thats only a hint to those who can understand and appreciate them. But the Quran is not mainly about science, its about everything you can encounter in your life, and beyond.

 

Riding camels and horses is a funny example, but its not relevant. Islam was sent at a time and place, but its valid for all times and places. The tools change, but route doesnt.

 

This discussion can be more fun if you had a go at the Quran. You can download a free copy from here:

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.islamasoft.co.uk/products/nquran/setup.exe"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.islamasoft.co.uk/products/nquran/setup.exe[/url]

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llogical,

cars? computers? you seem to think the Quran is a products catalog man. Its not my friend, but far more serious stuff is there. Stuff that only scientists can appreciate and value. They did in the past, doing now, and will continue to do as man unfolds more findings in space, biology, earth sciences and more. But mind you, the Quran is not a science magazine either, thats only a hint to those who can understand and appreciate them. But the Quran is not mainly about science, its about everything you can encounter in your life, and beyond.

 

Riding camels and horses is a funny example, but its not relevant. Islam was sent at a time and place, but its valid for all times and places. The tools change, but route doesnt.

 

This discussion can be more fun if you had a go at the Quran. You can download a free copy from here:

(www.)"http://islamasoft.co.uk/products/nquran/setup.exe"]islamasoft.co.uk/products/nquran/setup.exe[/url]

True, not a catalogue,perhaps maual for human behavior than.So much for free will.

There is no denying that in the archaic society Islamic tecahings were golden words.

but that's a long way.

My point was that human behavior changes, as environment changes, circumstances change, but the manual has no upgrades.

Scientists may appreciate religion but that's insignificant to religion becuase what if science says otherwise, does that mean religion is wrong? probably not. So if we use science to validate religion we will run into double standards because it would be like saying, "science says religion is right, so it must be right but if science says religion is wrong then still it's right."

about the camel thing,my point was that it's sunnah and sunnah is clearly the right way then why abandon it?

 

This may surprise you but I have actually read Quran in 3 languages including arabic since I was borned a muslim. Let the fun begin. :D

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:D

gore got the majority of votes but bush rules?

:D

that's because the Jerk had the most electoral votes.

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A bit surprised yes, but not much. It all depends on how did you work to understand it. There are countless books that can help in this, by Muslims and non-Muslims alike. Since you're not a Muslim now, then I suggest you read what non-Muslim authors had to say about Islam and the Quran, perhaps it convinces you better than Muslim authors. You still have time to review your position, anywhere from now til your time comes. But notice that no one knows when their time really comes.

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I know many very good Atheist people. They have families, raise their kids respectfully and lead positive lives.

 

That being said, I never understood why rational versus natural entered into the equation. We came from something call it whatever you want. Atheists generally exclusively believe in science. What is natural besides a result of some sort of creation initially? Science is finding out new and fascinating things it didn't know all the time. It's a great endeavor!!

 

But, not everything is in the science books, not everything is locked up in Nietzsche and Ayn Rand philosophical musings on whatever is going on in their head at the time. Not everything is noting differences in the teachings of Jesus in the New Testament or the fact that Science proves this fact time and time again. Nothing is solved by noting numerous contradictions etc in the Skeptics Annotated Quran (www.skepticsannotatedbible.co

/quran/index.htm) or the Skeptic's Annotated Bible (you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.skepticsannotatedbible(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/). The world is getting far too small these days to wish for a far off oasis where everything thinks the same - and besides that's weak anyways. I never understood why people want other people to think exactly like they do. Boring!

 

100 years ago Albert Einstein was coming on the scene and totally revamped science with relativity. Later, his finding discovered that the universe was deeper and more strange than we could ever imagine with the science of quantum physics. Of course we used it to build a bomb (because FDR pressured scientists of the time to do so, and they did) but the science itself is fascinating.

 

I have not read all the way through the Quran although I might find it interesting to do so. I would not object. But not everything is in the Bible or Quran. A lot of it is interpretation, and opinion on the part of the reader. Not everything is in science. A lot of it is interpretation, and opinion on the part of the reader. But they seem to make a good compliment for one another. Just my opinion. Meh...

 

And finally, another viewpoint -- (www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.leaderu(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/offices/billcraig/docs/tachyons.html"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.leaderu(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/offices/billcraig/docs/tachyons.html[/url]

 

Very fascinating stuff indeed!

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A bit surprised yes, but not much. It all depends on how did you work to understand it. There are countless books that can help in this, by Muslims and non-Muslims alike. Since you're not a Muslim now, then I suggest you read what non-Muslim authors had to say about Islam and the Quran, perhaps it convinces you better than Muslim authors. You still have time to review your position, anywhere from now til your time comes. But notice that no one knows when their time really comes.

:D Since Im into philosophy,I did infact explored muslim authors like Ghazali and non muslims ones like decartes, Budha, confucious, Dao, Plato,..list goes on. About reviewing my stance, I constantly try to do that with an open mind but until I am convinced, I can't change. Not that I deny God's existance but if he/she does exist, I may have a bone to pick with him/her.Again, no pun.

Going back to the point about being outdated, I respect Quran, but still, stand behind the argument that some of it's teaching in today's world are not practical.

:D

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Dot. You reply is evident of the fact that you didn't understand the sentences in quote.

Does Quran say anything about Cars, computers or the quantum theory? No.. because these things were not around at that times. About prophecies, einstein made prophecies lik ethe exact time of eclipse, does that make him a prophet?

Complete way of lifestyle you say but does lifestyle change? Yes. Does the teachings of quran change ? No. Do you see the problem?

Example:The prophet used to travel on horseback or camels, that's the sunnah. How do you travel?

 

You must understand, quran is telling us how to live our lives. It is much more complicated than "methods of transportation" or computers, you get the point. It tells us the rules and guidlines. Yea, true, its an old book. But you cant say that the teachings have to change as well. Stuff like not killing innocent people, well, that doesn thave to change one bit, and it shoudnt either. Thats why when people say that the quran should be "modernized" they are wrong, because it works just as well as it did when it was first written. Now, the prophet used to travel on camel, that is sunnah? Well that doesnt really make that much sense. Are you saying he didnt walk? As far as im concerned, i walk everyday! And, in the quran, it doesnt say to only travel on camels, that would be ridiculous and absurd and unpractical, and you know why it doesnt say that? Because the quran will be applicable forever, whether when it first started or 500 years later.

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Oh, Jesus Christ. Let's haul in the election. Bush won, get over it.

Being one of very few Americans here I'll speak for majority rules, it works 100% every time!

We pick those who pick the votes and sort the votes that pick the president. Majority rule isn't meticulously belonging to America or democracy either. It applies to all and that explains why when used it functions extremely well.

 

About whatever it is you're trying to mix into religion here, America also has separation from church and state in democracy. If this has to do with your argument...this is my remark.

Edited by Undertaker

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So.....how does everyone stand on the freedom+democracy vs religion+dictatorship?

 

Does anyone agree or disagree that they are tied togather like that or that one must wipe the other out?

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So.....how does everyone stand on the freedom+democracy vs religion+dictatorship?

 

Does anyone agree or disagree that they are tied togather like that or that one must wipe the other out?

 

They're interchangable. Both will give up their individual freedoms of thought for the sake of 'security' and conquest.

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:D

 

unless im missing something , i dont see how democracy wouldnt fit in with an Islamic society.

 

say the taliban were still in power in afgahnistan. why couldnt there be other Islamic parties campaigning on religious principals and promises of better 'whatever' like western politicians do?

 

as long as the parties were fundamentalist partys or even moderates, if Islamic parties were the only choice, where is the problem?

 

:D

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:D

 

unless im missing something , i dont see how democracy wouldnt fit in with an Islamic society.

 

say the taliban were still in power in afgahnistan. why couldnt there be other Islamic parties campaigning on religious principals and promises of better 'whatever' like western politicians do?

 

as long as the parties were fundamentalist partys or even moderates, if Islamic parties were the only choice, where is the problem?

 

:D

 

You are not missing anything, in my opinion. Democracy is entirely possible in Islamic society. People vote for what they believe is best for themselves. That precludes what is best for others, which is not necessairly a bad thing. But, as in any democracy or variant thereof, there will be disagreement and dissent. That's a byproduct of democracy. The majority wins, the minority whines. There is no true believer state of absolute.

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They're interchangable. Both will give up their individual freedoms of thought for the sake of 'security' and conquest.

Freedom of thought and expression is heavily restricted under absolute religious rule under the context that it is blasphemous.

 

Freedom of thought and expression is barely restricted under free democractic society rule, and produces controversy by analyzing everything under the sun with no reservations.

 

I've already gone over several times how religious rule means heavy limitations on freedom. Isn't anyone even reading the previous posts?

 

if Islamic parties were the only choice, where is the problem?
Is this your idea of "choice?" - more example of restrictions by religious rule.

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"I've already gone over several times how religious rule means heavy limitations on freedom. Isn't anyone even reading the previous posts?"

 

Yes, sir I have....and I agree. Political rule under the guise of religion is how the west does the same....Islam and Christianity are at it again, and all of this over politics. It's retarded already....:D

 

Isn't anyone even reading the previous posts?

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:D

 

 

freedom of choice in an Islamic democracy would perhaps be not to much different to an western model.

 

take an election. parties would campaign on what they stand for. it could be education, hospitals, jobs, business, etc. same old stuff.

 

islamic society was once the leader of civilisation, with the worlds best universities, hospitals, engineering, etc. it attracted a great culture of phylosophy, and the arts.

 

that shows that Islam can be tolerant of ideas. it happend in the past.

 

 

:D

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