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Some Scientific Truths Of Koran

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SOME SCIENTIFIC TRUTHS OF KORAN

 

( By Omar Chennoukh )

 

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Preface

The création of the univers

Our solar system

Spherity of earths

Embryology

Extra terrestrial life

Creation of the fauna

The creation

The atmosphere on Earth

Animal Biology

The infinitely small

Oceanography

Geology

Ecology

The end of solar system

At the end of universe

The black holes

Conclusion

Note

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On behalf of God the Clement and merciful

 

I request God to forgive me for the bad interpretations of the Koranic verses I would make.

 

I do nothing but try by my modest contribution and my limited knowledge to help my brothers of race believe in Our Creator and avoid eternal sufferings.

 

I request God that what will follow would be like a spark which will light their heart up. Amine.

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PREFACE

 

The first message that God learned to the prophet Mohamed (sws) is “Readâ€. These four letters have an enormous direction. By its intermediary, He asked us to seek for knowledge.

 

Then all along the Koran, He exhorted us to look at ourselves and around us: how we were created and of what we were created? How He created the Earth and everything that composes it as well as the sky?

 

To better know Our Creator, He asked us to better know his creation. He gave simple signs for people of the 14th century and complicated examples for people of our time and for the next generations. All that so we can believe in Him without any doubt, because He deeply wanted to avoid us momentary or eternal sufferings. It is the goal of the following facts.

 

 

The creation of the universe

 

 

The astronomers of the 20th century thought that the universe at the beginning was made of gas and there was the great explosion (the Big-bang). While cooling, the galaxies and their solar systems were formed. Here is what Our Creator said :

 

 

Sourate Foussilette (Detailed) Verse 11

 

“He then turned to the sky which was a smoke...â€

 

 

If the Koran was the work of Mohamed (s.w.s), who could tell him that the universe was made of gas billion years ago?

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Our solar system

 

 

And here is another scientific statement that was carried out for the moment only partially.

 

 

Sourate Yussuf (Joseph) Verse 4

 

“When Joseph said to his father: I saw eleven planets and the sun and the moon are bowing down me. â€

 

 

 

Until March 15th 2004, the world knew only 9 planets of our solar system and from this date, via the telescope “Hubbleâ€, the 10th planet was discovered and called “Sednaâ€. It is 13 billion kilometres from the Earth. And most of these planets were discovered these last four centuries with the help of the telescope. The 11th planet remains to be discovered. (I think that it must be between Pluto and between these two planets.)Sedna because there is more than 6 billion kilometres empty space

And here is : Caltech's Michael Brown was expecting to find something like Xena out there. He told The Observer that he had narrowly lost a bet with a fellow astronomer that he would discover a KBO larger than Pluto by the end of 2004. Eight days later, along came Xena.

If the Koran was not a divine revelation, who could tell Mohamed (s.w.s) about the existence of the planets and their number ?

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sphérity of earth

 

 

 

The discovery that the Earth is round and turns on itself and around the sun was made by Copernic at the 16th century and was confirmed by Galileo a few years later with his invention of the long sight. The clergy of the time who controlled all the Occidental countries said that he was a heretic. For them the Earth is flat and the sun turns around it. Here is what the Koran said, words from the Creator of the universe:

 

 

Sourate Ali Imran (the family â' imran) verse 27

 

“You make follow the night by the day and the day by the night. â€

 

Sourate Azoumar (groups) verse 5

 

“He created the sky and the Earth in the Truth. He rolled up the night over the day, and the day over the night. He said the sun and the moon are each one going towards a given term. He is the Almighty, isn’t He? The one who forgives. â€

 

In all logics, this can be done only in one circular motion.

 

image006gs6.gif

 

 

 

 

And in another sourate El anbiyaa (the prophets):

 

“It is Him who created the day and the night, the sun and the moon are sailing in the space. â€

 

This idea of movement of our solar system is also a recent discovery. The scientists calculated that our solar system sails in the space at 852.000 km/h.

 

 

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CREATION OF THE HUMANBEING “Embryologyâ€

 

 

The various phases of the development of the human embryo were discovered mainly during the last two centuries. Here is what the Koran (God) said about this more than 14 centuries ago.

 

 

Sourate “the believers†verses 12,13 and 14

 

 

 

“The first human being was created from a whole of fine earth * then of a fertilized cell (Noutfa) which was put in a safe place. * This cell was transformed into a kind of paste that is fixing on (Alaka), and then in foetus (Moudgha). From this foetus, the bones were formed and then covered with flesh. The creation is achieved when it was animated. Bless God, the best of the creators.â€

 

 

In another sourate, God said:

 

Sourate Azoumar verset 6

 

“The human being was created in three dark places.â€

 

 

First place : The ovaries : birthplace of the ovule.

 

 

Second place : The Fallopian tubes : place of the fecundation of the ovule.

 

 

Third place : The utérus : place of the development of the foetus.

 

ALAKA (Which(Who) hangs on(collides) or hangs)

 

image002tp4.png

 

 

 

 

 

 

MODGHA (pate machée)

 

image004am9.png

 

 

 

 

 

 

And the prophet (s.w.s) said in a checked hadith :

 

1 °) In each of you, all the elements of your creation are collected in the womb of your mother in the space of forty days}

 

(that there is that two or three decades since we know that all the elements necessary for the development of the human embryo are collected during the first forty days in the stomach of his(her) mother.)

 

2°) “Each one created in the bosom of his mother was initially “Noutfa†during 40 days, “Alaka†the same length of time, then finally “Moudgha†also remaining in this state for forty days (120 days in all). Then God breathed the soul into this Moudgha. â€

 

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EXTRA-TERRESTRIAL LIFE

 

 

After created the Earth, the atmosphère and created its flora, fauna, God said to the angels: «... I will put a Kalif on the Earth… » The angels answered: “ You will put someone who will pollute and shed blood.â€

Sourate : the cow verse 30

 

 

The angels did not know the future (privilege of God only), so it may be something like that on other planets.

 

 

And in the chapter: Al Choura (the advice) verse 29

 

“ Among His signs, the creation of the sky, the Earth and the other creations, if He wanted He could put them altogether.â€

 

 

So it means that God (and it is logical according to this huge universe) created other forms of life on other planets and God is the best.

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CREATION OF THE FAUNA

 

 

Sourate Azoumar(the groups) verse 6

 

“He created the people from only one being and from this†one†He pulled out his mate. Then followed eight couples of animals.â€

 

All the terrestrial fauna had evoluted from these eight couples. The “famous†theory of Darwin on the evolution of the species is true except for the human beings; even if they were primitive at the beginning they were still human beings.

 

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THE CREATION IF GENERALE

 

Sourate : Yasine verse 36

 

« Praise to the One who created all the couples growing on Earth, from themselves and from the things they don’t know.â€

 

 

Everything God created is composed of two or more elements, which are complementary. From the atom (proton, electron and neutron) to the human being (man and woman) and in their own body: from the cell which is composed of mitochondria and vacuoles to their AND.

 

Everything existing on Earth: fauna, flora and so on…, all we know and we don’t, is the component of something else. There is “one†only if we put these elements altogether. Unicity belongs only to God.

 

 

It is not since a long time that humanity knows all this. Is there still any doubt in you on the divine fact of the Koran and on what we will find when we will return to Him?

 

 

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THE ATMOSPHERE ON EARTH

 

 

Sourate El anâame (herds) verses 125 and 126

 

“For the people God would want to enlighten, He will dilate their heart for Islam, and the ones He would want to mislay will have their chest oppressed, crushed as if they rose towards the sky. The abomination will be the division of the unbelievers. This doctrine belongs to God and it is true. Signs were given to those who are thinking.â€

 

 

 

The more you go up in the sky the less oxygen you have. The chest is oppressed and it is difficult to breath at 3000 metres altitude.

 

This phenomenon was explained when the composition of the air could be analysed in the 18th and 19th centuries.

 

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THE ATMOSPHERE ON EARTH

 

 

 

sourate Ettalaq ( the repudiation verse 12 )

 

"Allah created seven skies and he did the same for Earth.."

 

the Only God knows about the skies but concerning the seven Earths I think that it might be the seven layers of the atmosphere that surrounded the Earth to protect it from meteors and from sun and cosmic radiations.

 

(the troposphere, stratosphere, mesosphere, thermosphere, ozone layer, ionosphere and the exosphere

are the seven layers.

Because sourate the prophets in verse 32 God said :

 

" We made the sky to protect the earth like a roof"

 

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ANIMAL BIOLOGY

 

 

Sourate El hadj (the pilgrimage) Verse 73

 

“Ô! You the humans! A parabola is proposed to you, so listen to it: The ones you call upon apart from God, will not even create a fly, even if they make a union. And if this fly took something from them, this could not be taken back from it. How weak is the one who requires and what is required. â€

 

In their researches, the biologists (according to a documentary diffused on television in 1987) realized that to absorb a given matter a fly starts with sending a jet of saliva and immediately this matter is transformed and loses all its original nature. For example if sugar is mixed with the saliva of a fly, and if we try to recover this sugar, we will note that no trace of this sugar exists in this mixture even by using the material of the most recent laboratory. There were no analysis laboratories 14 centuries ago.

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THE INFINITY SMA

 

 

Sourate Saba verse 3

 

“…. Nothing escapes from the divine vigilance even if it has the weight of an atom in the sky or on the ground. Is it smaller or larger than an atom that already appears in the explicit book? â€

 

The discovery of the atom was made by “Michael Faraday†in 1832 and “the smaller than the atomâ€, the proton, the electron and the neutron were discovered at the beginning of the 20th century. God revealed this in the Koran 14 centuries before all the scientific statements. So people who believe only in human genius can think of it. They forget that it is God who put this science in the mind of the human being.

 

God said in another verse: Sourate Nouh (Noah)

 

“We created the human being in successive stages. â€

 

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OCEANOGRAPHY

 

 

In the Seventies or the eighties, oceanographer J.Y Cousteau discovered at the bottom of the oceans an extraordinary current, a real water river whose temperature is colder than the water on the surface. This current goes down from the North Pole towards the equator. This discovery has to be added to that of the marine current on the surface, which goes up the equator towards North “the Gulf Stream†whose temperature, is higher compared to the other places of the ocean. In fact the navigators knew it since a very long time without however being able to explain it. At the time of the sailing boat, there was neither diving suit nor submarine where the human being could plunge to 20 or 30 metres deep.

 

If the prophet Mohamed (s.w.s) was the author of the Koran, how could He know that there is a marine current hundreds of metres deep?

 

 

 

Sourate In nour (the light) Verses 39 and 40

 

“The works of the infidels......... are similar to darkness of the deep seas, covered by waves. On the top of them there are other waves, and above them there are clouds. Darkness is on the top of other darkness. If you look at your hands, you will not even be able to see them. â€

 

To confirm the decouverte of cousteau here is a rescent article:

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Ocean current

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Important currents

Ocean currents can flow for thousands of kilometers. They are very important in determining the climates of the continents, especially those regions bordering on the ocean. Perhaps the most striking example is the Gulf Stream, which makes northwest Europe much more temperate than any other region at the same latitude. Another example is the Hawaiian Islands, where the climate is cooler (sub-tropical) than the tropical latitudes in which they are located because of the California Current.

Background

Surface ocean currents are generally wind driven and develop their typical clockwise spirals in the northern hemisphere and counter-clockwise rotation in the southern hemisphere because of the imposed wind stresses. In wind driven currents, the Ekman spiral effect results in the currents flowing at an angle to the driving winds. The areas of surface ocean currents move somewhat with the seasons; this is most notable in equatorial currents.

Deep ocean currents are driven by density and temperature gradients. Thermohaline circulation, also known as the ocean's conveyor belt, refers to the deep ocean density-driven ocean basin currents. These currents, which flow under the surface of the ocean and are thus hidden from immediate detection, are called submarine rivers. These are currently being researched by a fleet of underwater robots called Argo. Upwelling and downwelling areas in the oceans are areas where significant vertical movement of ocean water is observed.

Surface currents make up about 10% of all the water in the ocean. Surface currents are generally restricted to the upper 400 meters of the ocean. The movement of deep water in the ocean basins is by density driven forces and gravity. The density difference is a function of different temperatures and salinity. Deep waters sink into the deep ocean basins at high latitudes where the temperatures are cold enough to cause the density to increase. The main causes of currents are: solar heating, winds and gravity.

Ocean currents are measured in Sverdrup with the symbol Sv, where 1 Sv is equivalent to a volume flow rate of 106 cubic meters per second.

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OCEANOGRAPHY

 

 

 

Sourate El Forqan (the laws) Verse 53

 

“It is him who joined two seas, one made of pleasant fresh water to the taste; and the other salted and bitter, He placed between them a barrier, an insuperable limitâ€

 

 

 

At the beginning of 2005, we could see in the news of a French television that France made a drilling in the Mediterranean seabed (probably to look for oil) but they discovered a very important sheet of soft water. The power of the water jet arrived on the surface bubbling. This sheet of water is probably as big as the Mediterranean sea or maybe bigger, as the sheet under the desert of Sahara which is more than 1000 km wide and more than 2000 km long.

 

They stopped the drilling besides to preserve it for harder times. Is it what God refers to?

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GEALOGY

 

 

A German geologist discovered in 1962 that the mountains have four and a haft time under ground their height above. For example a mountain of 1000 metres is 4500 metres deep. And that is the Koran said 14 centuries ago.

Sourate El-Anbiya (the prophets) verse 31

 

« We placed beneath the mountains sort of pillars to consolidate their steps. »

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ECOLOGY

 

 

Sourate Ar-rûm verse 41

 

« Pollution appeared on Earth and in the sea, as a result of the actions accomplished by the men, so that God could let them see the consequences of their actions. They may come back (to him).â€

 

 

Men are modifying the nature with genetic experiments on plants, animals and even on human beings. They poison the atmosphere, the earth and the seas with all kind of chemical products. One day they will suffer from their actions done before.

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THE END OF OUR SOLAR SYSTEM

 

 

Sourate El qiyama (the end of the world) Verses 7-10

 

“When the eyes will be dazzled, and the moon eclipsed, the sun and the moon will be gathered...â€

 

 

Our sun will explode and absorb all our solar system. This is what the scientists call “a supernova†before dying out and becoming “a dwarf starâ€.

 

 

 

Sourate that is Ineluctable (will arrive with certainty) Verses 75 and 76

 

“No! I swear by the fall of the stars * and it is here a solemn oath, if only you knew it â€

 

 

 

According to me (God is the best) this confirms the former hypothesis. There is one end of the World and one end of the worlds (God forgive me if I made a mistake on the interpretation of the verses)

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AT THE END OF UNIVERSE

 

 

Sourate At taarik (the way) Verses 11-15

 

“By the sky that will retract (to return to itself), by the ground that cracks, this is the truth and not a frivolous speech. â€

 

The universe will continue to expand as noted by the astrologer “Hubble†in 1933. When it will reach the limits of the sky, it will return to itself What the scientists call the BIG CRUCH and that will be the end. And God is the best.

 

 

 

Sourate Al Anbiyaa (The prophets) Verse 104

 

“The day we will fold the sky as we fold the page of a book, as we began the first creation, we will start it again, it is a promise which concerns us and we will achieve it. â€

 

 

 

Sourate Ya-sin Verse 37

 

“The sun goes through its career until its final destination, as it was ordered by the Powerful and Clever God.â€

 

 

Here is another discovery of the 20th century. Like all the stars our sun goes towards its destruction. It may happen very late but it will be the case one-day: it is what we call the end of the world of our solar system.

 

 

 

The scientists observed explosions of stars and their solar systems. Are we the only ones that God created in this great universe? Or we are just a part of his creation. In this case, the end of the universe and the day of the resurrection will be when Allah will put an end to the entire universe. And God is the best.

 

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MY Y IDEA ABOUT BLACK HOLES, according to the Koran

 

 

God said in the Koran: sourate Luqman verse 10

 

“He built the sky with pillars you can not see.â€

 

 

So pillars composed with material we cannot see support the canopy of heaven.But they really exist.

 

The scientists have studied what they call « black holes » surrounded by a big cosmic material. My idea is that these black holes are in fact pillars in the sky, why not ? (God is the best). As the Creator said: “all is travelling in the spaceâ€, with an unimaginable precision and at the same stabilised speed. God said: “This is the creation of Allah, show me what the others you invocated have done, that the unfair people are in the wrong way†Sourate Luqman verse 11

 

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CONCLUSION

 

If we are convinced by what it is told in this booklet is the fact of the Creator of the universe, so it has to be the same for all the Koran.

 

The Koran is a universal message for the entire humanity of a unique god, it has no associate, did not bear and was not bear and nothing looks like it. The base of this faith is:

“The messager believed on what was given by his Lord. He and the believers trusted God, the angels, all the holly writings (the books) and all his prophets. No differences are made among them, and they said: we heard and we obeyed. We beg your pardon and towards you is the final return.â€

Chapter “the cow†verses 285 and 286

 

Our destiny is on your hands. Believing and obeying to the Creator and his laws will drive us to an eternal life of felicity that is above everything you can imagine. In the opposite, we will be submitted to eternal or temporary sufferings, in function of the divine clemency.

 

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NOTE

 

We must not judge Islam through the actions of certain Muslim people who ignore the real sense of Islam (peace and submission to God).

 

God dictates us to have good relationship with everybody except if you were hurt, and even in this case we must not hurt children, women and old people who are weak.

 

He imposed us laws that we must not go through, knowing that his creatures are always attracted by the bad and the contre nature. If we analysed correctly his laws we could see that they were made for our good and a life in perfect harmony with the nature.

 

Try to study the Koran by yourself and make your own point of view. Pray God to unlight you and help you understand. If you sincerely admitted that your former life was not so right, God would forgive you and even more He would transform your bad actions into good ones and this will be a new birth for you “Amineâ€.

 

If most of the Muslim people were real believers they would be at the top of the progress instead of being far behind.

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PropellerAds
The astronomers of the 20th century thought that the universe at the beginning was made of gas and there was the great explosion (the Big-bang).

 

This is not correct. The universe did not exist before the Big Bang - all matter (including 'gas') is a result of the Big Bang.

 

The discovery that the Earth is round and turns on itself and around the sun was made by Copernic at the 16th century and was confirmed by Galileo a few years later with his invention of the long sight. The clergy of the time who controlled all the Occidental countries said that he was a heretic. For them the Earth is flat and the sun turns around it.

 

Long before Mohammed the Greeks not only knew that the earth was spherical, but calculated a fairly accurate estimate of its diameter.

 

The various phases of the development of the human embryo were discovered mainly during the last two centuries. Here is what the Koran (God) said about this more than 14 centuries ago.

 

And long before Mohammed the same fairly simple 'discoveries' were made. It isn't hard to study the gestation of mammals.

 

In their researches, the biologists (according to a documentary diffused on television in 1987) realized that to absorb a given matter a fly starts with sending a jet of saliva and immediately this matter is transformed and loses all its original nature. For example if sugar is mixed with the saliva of a fly, and if we try to recover this sugar, we will note that no trace of this sugar exists in this mixture even by using the material of the most recent laboratory. There were no analysis laboratories 14 centuries ago.

 

LOL! It doesn't take divine revelation to know that mixing things might leave no trace of the former constituents. Think about bronze - making bronze is a very early human occupation. think about making beer - an even older human occupation.

 

“…. Nothing escapes from the divine vigilance even if it has the weight of an atom in the sky or on the ground. Is it smaller or larger than an atom that already appears in the explicit book? ”

 

Umm, the concept of the smallest particle of matter (I doubt that the Koran uses the word 'atom') was one much discussed by the Ancient Greeks and probably many other civilisations.

 

“The works of the infidels......... are similar to darkness of the deep seas, covered by waves. On the top of them there are other waves, and above them there are clouds. Darkness is on the top of other darkness. If you look at your hands, you will not even be able to see them. ”

 

I don't see that the Koran is talking about deep ocean currents here.

 

“It is him who joined two seas, one made of pleasant fresh water to the taste; and the other salted and bitter, He placed between them a barrier, an insuperable limit”

 

Much more likely to be pointing out the somewhat obvious fact that some bodies of water (ie lakes) are not salty and the sea is, don't you think?

 

“When the eyes will be dazzled, and the moon eclipsed, the sun and the moon will be gathered..."

 

Our sun will explode and absorb all our solar system. This is what the scientists call “a supernova” before dying out and becoming “a dwarf star”.

 

Not a terribly convincing description of the sun exploding, is it?

 

“By the sky that will retract (to return to itself), by the ground that cracks, this is the truth and not a frivolous speech.

 

The universe will continue to expand as noted by the astrologer “Hubble” in 1933. When it will reach the limits of the sky, it will return to itself What the scientists call the BIG CRUCH and that will be the end.

 

Here you're saying that "sky" means the extent of the universe - earlier you were saying that "sky" meant the atmospheric layers of the earth. Which is it?

 

 

And so on - no time to read the rest.

Edited by bartlett

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This is not correct. The universe did not exist before the Big Bang - all matter (including 'gas') is a result of the Big Bang.

 

Bartlett you seem to be someone that possesses some intelligence.

I pose to you a simple question.. How can there be a bang if there was no matter to begin with?

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No idea - and actually I expressed myself poorly. The OP claimed that current thinking was that the universe was filled with gas that the Big Bang ignited. That isn't what current thinking says at all.

 

As someone who still hasn't got over the paradoxes involved in the speed of light being a constant, I'm not a great person to try to explain the Big Bang, but the essential word is 'singularity' - that's what is hypothesised to have existed at the moment of the Big Bang. Time and space were created by the BB.

 

We know, I gather, what happened a very, very short time (microseconds, I think) AFTER the Big Bang but we don't know (and maybe by definition cannot know) what happened before it and maybe at the moment it happened.

 

If anyone wants to postulate a god causing the BB, fair enough. But from the instant it occured there is no reason (and no evidence) to suppose that anything supernatural has ever happened in the universe.

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Assalamu 'alaykum bartlett (btw...that's my favourite type of pear),

 

I think it's pretty well accepted all the matter and energy of the entire universe originated with the big bang...and we have a picture of the universe the moment light was able to escape from the infant universe; it is interesting to note from this picture there were already dense spots which then became the stars which form the galaxies of the universe.

 

Now there are a couple of interesting points...first without these dense spots in the infant universe, in the peculiar manner in which they were distributed...we would not have the resultant stars and galaxies formed and located in the peculiar way they are distributed throughout today's mature universe. It is almost as if the distrubition of these dense spots was preordained. Consider the Quranic verse, 56:75..."I swear by the positions of the stars - a mighty oath, if you only knew". This really is something to ponder.

 

...and you raise another interesting point:

 

If anyone wants to postulate a god causing the BB, fair enough. But from the instant it occured there is no reason (and no evidence) to suppose that anything supernatural has ever happened in the universe.

 

The fundamental question becomes...did nothing create something...or did something create something? I don't know about you...but I find it hard to believe that nothing created something. For me, this is where an atheist's logic ends.

 

Peace. Odobknarf.

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...without these dense spots in the infant universe, in the peculiar manner in which they were distributed...we would not have the resultant stars and galaxies formed and located in the peculiar way they are distributed throughout today's mature universe. It is almost as if the distrubition of these dense spots was preordained.

 

Why? Things are as they are - if there had been no 'lumpiness' we probably wouldn't be here to write holy books about the sublime and surely divine smoothness of the universe, but another life form might be.

 

...and you raise another interesting point:

The fundamental question becomes...did nothing create something...or did something create something? I don't know about you...but I find it hard to believe that nothing created something. For me, this is where an atheist's logic ends.

 

As I've allowed the possibility of a god causing the BB, I don't think you can call me an atheist, strictly speaking. Also, literally anything is conjecturable as the state of things (or -no-things) "before" (if you can use that concept for a state that had no time) the BB, and whatever we conjecture is highly unlikely to have been the case, as we are a product of the laws of this particular universe.

 

(Mine too - I chose it because Nashi had been banned)

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By the way, the "pre-ordination" of anything is, I agree, interesting - it seems to me as a non-physicist and non-mathematician that it's possible that once the BB had begun, everything - the location of a particular a dust mote in Galaxy X in 10,000,000 BCE, the cough of a kangaroo in Australia this morning - could have happened in no other way.

 

However I think that current thinking by people who know what they are talking about says that this is not the case and that random events do occur, and thus the state of the universe is not predictable and thus not pre-ordained.

 

You could (and in fact do, if you believe that an omniscient god exists) postulate another layer of pre-ordination covering randomness, but in the absence of any evidence for the existence of this god, Occam's Razor doesn't allow me to.

Edited by bartlett

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Why? Things are as they are - if there had been no 'lumpiness' we probably wouldn't be here to write holy books about the sublime and surely divine smoothness of the universe, but another life form might be.

As I've allowed the possibility of a god causing the BB, I don't think you can call me an atheist, strictly speaking. Also, literally anything is conjecturable as the state of things (or -no-things) "before" (if you can use that concept for a state that had no time) the BB, and whatever we conjecture is highly unlikely to have been the case, as we are a product of the laws of this particular universe.

I usually don't engage in these types of discussions because things will go round and round in circles. What I do want to point out once again is this verse:

 

56:75..."I swear by the positions of the stars - a mighty oath, if you only knew".

 

There is a very strong suggestion the positions of the stars were preordained and supported by our recent findings of the 'lumpiness' of our infant universe soon after the Big Bang. Now remember this verse was written down some 1500 years ago!...well before we knew anything of the structure and origins of our universe.

 

As for randomness...it's basis lies in heisenberg's uncertainty principle...I for one believe God does know the exact location of any given electron...the uncertainty is only for us.

 

Occam's Razor is getting dull and needs a new blade...never let reductionism limit your creativity.

 

Peace. Odobknarf.

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56:75..."I swear by the positions of the stars - a mighty oath, if you only knew".

 

There is a very strong suggestion the positions of the stars were preordained and supported by our recent findings of the 'lumpiness' of our infant universe soon after the Big Bang. Now remember this verse was written down some 1500 years ago!...well before we knew anything of the structure and origins of our universe.

 

Umm, it suggests nothing of the sort. You could have equally said that it suggests that astrology is a true 'science' or that it suggests that the position of the stars at that particular moment was somehow important or that the Great Tuetle Ar-Tuin on whose back the earth rides steers by the stars or - anything.

 

And it says nothing at all about the structure of the universe or its development. If we were to discover that it wasn't 'lumpiness' but something else that caused the coalescence of the stars, would you be left with a false Koranic verse? No - it's so patently not making any claim about the development of the universe that it could fit with any cosmology.

 

I can see that it is important for the Koran to fit known facts, but trying to make known facts squeeze into the Koran is often futile.

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Watchatalkinbout Willis?

 

Umm, it suggests nothing of the sort. You could have equally said that it suggests that astrology is a true 'science' or that it suggests that the position of the stars at that particular moment was somehow important or that the Great Tuetle Ar-Tuin on whose back the earth rides steers by the stars or - anything.

Coulda woulda and shoulda.

 

And it says nothing at all about the structure of the universe or its development. If we were to discover that it wasn't 'lumpiness' but something else that caused the coalescence of the stars, would you be left with a false Koranic verse? No - it's so patently not making any claim about the development of the universe that it could fit with any cosmology.

If and or but.

 

I can see that it is important for the Koran to fit known facts, but trying to make known facts squeeze into the Koran is often futile.

Yes you're right...all known facts about everything should have been covered off in the Encyclopedia Qur'an. For example, the life cycle of the common lobster should have been covered in volume 12 of the 119 volume set that measures 12 feet across, end to end standing upright. Also on the hitherto undiscovered planet XTAR in the hitherto undiscovered galaxy Spastica 1721, there is an hitherto undiscovered geological phenomenom known as Eurkabolizemic Quaking. You will find this covered off in great detail in volume 91, surah 7,029, verse 563.

 

You know the problem with Non-believers is that they look at one verse of the Qur'an in standalone iceolation...er I mean isolation. Now let's review this again shall we, and this time I shall add in a well known verse or two.

 

21.30 "Are the disbelievers not aware that the heavens and the earth used to be joined together and that We ripped them apart...that We made every living from water"

 

...now combine with...

 

56:75..."I swear by the positions of the stars - a mighty oath, if you only knew".

 

...combined with...

 

7:54..."...He created the sun, moon, stars to be subservient to His command".

 

So 21:30 clearly is the Big Bang. 56:75 and 7:54 clearly show the position of the stars were preordained and follow God's laws. The fact is, whether you like it or not, these verses were revealed some 1500 years prior to the known structure of the universe. It has been less than a decade since the discovery of the lumpiness of the early universe. The lumps are in a peculiar distribution (56:75)...and they had no choice but to be in this particular distribution (7:54).

 

...and just in case you have any further objections...let me pre-empt it with my 'get out of jail' free card...

 

2:6-7..."And as for those who disbelieve, it makes no difference whether you warn them or not: they will not believe. God has sealed their hearts and their ears, their eyes are covered. They will have great torment."

 

...tsk, tsk, tsk.

 

Peace. Odobknarf.

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Watchatalkinbout Willis?

Coulda woulda and shoulda.

 

What? I pointed out that the verse you quoted would fit many other cosmologies (and thus isn't an example of the Koran saying anything important about the way the universe actually is) and you respond like that?

 

If and or but.

 

Again, I point out that you've attached a vague verse with no factual content to a piece of current scientific knowlege and have claimed that thus the verse has meaning (which is incorrect) and this is how you respond?

 

Yes you're right...all known facts about everything should have been covered off in the Encyclopedia Qur'an...

 

What? I'm responding to a post which claims that the Koran does in fact give facts about the world, and you chimed in claiming that a vague verse was evidence of it - and now you back out?

 

No wonder your discussions on this topic go round in circles!

 

 

21.30 "Are the disbelievers not aware that the heavens and the earth used to be joined together and that We ripped them apart...that We made every living from water"

 

...now combine with...

 

56:75..."I swear by the positions of the stars - a mighty oath, if you only knew".

 

...combined with...

 

7:54..."...He created the sun, moon, stars to be subservient to His command".

 

So 21:30 clearly is the Big Bang.

 

LOL! No it isn't! It doesn't remotely describe the state of the universe at the BB.

 

56:75 and 7:54 clearly show the position of the stars were preordained and follow God's laws.

 

Nonsense, it doesn't say anything about pre-ordination except in the sense that you already assume an omniscient god, in which case everything is always known - but the same applies to any religious system. They ALL believe that their god/s know everything and control the laws of nature. the oran isn't saying anything in particular here.

 

The lumps are in a peculiar distribution (56:75)...and they had no choice but to be in this particular distribution (7:54).

 

Well, that doesn't fit with current science AFAIK. Randomness does occur in the universe. And of course the lumps were in a 'particular distribution' - all macro matter is in a particular distribution. It doesn't follow that a supernatural being put them there.

 

And I repeat, the verse is so vague that no matter what current science said, you could claim that the Koran agreed with it. Fair enough, just don't go the illogical next step and claim that science agrees with the Koran.

 

(By the way, is it Allah or Mohammed swearing the mighty oath? I wouldn't have though that a monothesit god needed to swear oaths "by" anything.)

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Salam Packham,

 

Food seems to be a continuous theme so far in this thread...first I had to deal with a pear lover (Bartlett) and now someone who packages ham for a living...I wonder who's next. :sl:

 

(By the way, is it Allah or Mohammed swearing the mighty oath? I wouldn't have though that a monothesit god needed to swear oaths "by" anything.)

One needs to be aware of Arab culture and classical use of the Arabic language at the time. The whole point was to convey the message in a language of the Arab people, but in an elevated and mesmerizing form...so that those who chose to listen may see the light of God. It was common practice for Arab's to make oath's by things they held in value or respect. When God makes an oath by something...He is really saying, stand up, take notice, pay attention...it is an exclamation mark of the highest order! Please do not mix in English-centric language and cultural bias.

 

And I repeat, the verse is so vague that no matter what current science said, you could claim that the Koran agreed with it. Fair enough, just don't go the illogical next step and claim that science agrees with the Koran.

You know I didn't mean to be nonchalant in my previous post...it's just that it was very predictable where this convo was heading; there was no chance of randomness whatsoever...even my bad sense of humour was very predictable.

 

See...here's the thing...the Qur'an is not a book of science per se...but it does say some things that are known to be scientically true. It doesn't give a scientific desertation or a thesis; it's not the way God works. The Qur'an, in my view, is composed in much the same way as God composed nature. Two people can look at the same flower, and one person can view it as the end product of a serious of biochemical processes...and another person can view it as an artistic handiwork of God.

 

In other words, one can view nature strictly scientifically...or one can also view it as a sign of God; it's no different with the Qur'an. Some marvel at it...others don't understand what the fuss is about. I'm one of the marvelers, you're one of the fussers.

 

This is why I was taking this convo easy go lucky...after all, what's all the fuss about? You either see it as a sign or you don't; there ain't no two ways about it!

 

Peace. Odobknarf.

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One needs to be aware of Arab culture and classical use of the Arabic language at the time. The whole point was to convey the message in a language of the Arab people, but in an elevated and mesmerizing form...so that those who chose to listen may see the light of God. It was common practice for Arab's to make oath's by things they held in value or respect. When God makes an oath by something...He is really saying, stand up, take notice, pay attention...it is an exclamation mark of the highest order!

 

Frankly, if a god told me anything I'd pay very close attention if I believed that the god existed. If I didn't (as I don't) believe that s/he existed no amount of swearing oaths would make any difference.

 

See...here's the thing...the Qur'an is not a book of science per se...but it does say some things that are known to be scientically true. It doesn't give a scientific desertation or a thesis; it's not the way God works.

 

I'm not the one claiming that the Koran is a book of science. Your problem is with the OP, not me. It way mention facts but none of the quotes I've seen show that it has special knowledge and most (as in the OP) are just not saying what some believers want them to say.

 

In other words, one can view nature strictly scientifically...or one can also view it as a sign of God; it's no different with the Qur'an. Some marvel at it...others don't understand what the fuss is about. I'm one of the marvelers, you're one of the fussers.

 

Luckily there are alternatives you haven't covered. It's possible to marvel at nature without seeing any divine hand, and especially not the very specific divine hand of a very specific god.

 

I'm not arguing that the Koran is wrong, I'm arguing that people shouldn't try to make it say things that it doesn't.

.

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Frankly, if a god told me anything I'd pay very close attention if I believed that the god existed. If I didn't (as I don't) believe that s/he existed no amount of swearing oaths would make any difference.

But what if you were on the borderline? And what if God wanted to stress the importance of certain things over others...or do you intend on telling God on how to write His book?

 

Luckily there are alternatives you haven't covered. It's possible to marvel at nature without seeing any divine hand, and especially not the very specific divine hand of a very specific god.

Indeed there are many alternatives to choose from...but only one reality will ultimately be true - and that's the point. A Believer's view is that this life is a test; the purpose being the belief and voluntary submission to God. Now if God presented Himself so obviously...wouldn't be much of a test now would it? In a very real sense, the belief we choose, is really a bet on what we think is the ultimate reality...and the associated consequences that follow.

 

I'm not the one claiming that the Koran is a book of science. Your problem is with the OP, not me. It way mention facts but none of the quotes I've seen show that it has special knowledge and most (as in the OP) are just not saying what some believers want them to say...I'm not arguing that the Koran is wrong, I'm arguing that people shouldn't try to make it say things that it doesn't.

So are you saying the following verse does not accurately describe its associated scientific fact?

 

“It is him who joined two seas, one made of pleasant fresh water to the taste; and the other salted and bitter, He placed between them a barrier, an insuperable limitâ€

 

Peace. Odobknarf.

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But what if you were on the borderline? And what if God wanted to stress the importance of certain things over others...or do you intend on telling God on how to write His book?

 

This isn't the thread for an analysis of this, unfortunately. Sorry I brought it up.

 

Indeed there are many alternatives to choose from...but only one reality will ultimately be true - and that's the point.

 

Umm, no. They are just ways of looking at things. a flower is both a collection of biological facts and a beautiful thing. Neither is the 'right' way of looking at it. Both ways are just products of humans being humans.

 

A Believer's view is that this life is a test; the purpose being the belief and voluntary submission to God. Now if God presented Himself so obviously...wouldn't be much of a test now would it? In a very real sense, the belief we choose, is really a bet on what we think is the ultimate reality...and the associated consequences that follow.

 

By 'Believer' you're only taking about Muslims, right?

 

So are you saying the following verse does not accurately describe its associated scientific fact?

 

“It is him who joined two seas, one made of pleasant fresh water to the taste; and the other salted and bitter, He placed between them a barrier, an insuperable limitâ€

 

Yes. What on earth would have been the point of using a natural analogy about limits (which is what I assume is going on here) if the people hearing it didn't know what was being referred to? (I refer you to your point about the god being culturally appropriate in making an oath). For people in Arabia the actual existence of a freshwater lake large enough to be called a sea was probably a startling enough idea to make the point. I'll make a shrewd guess and postulate that rumours about the (unusually salty) Dead Sea and the (freshwater) Sea of Galilee had penetrated into Arabia Felix, along with confused rumours of Christianity. Traders like Mohammed would have been vectors of both.

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This isn't the thread for an analysis of this, unfortunately. Sorry I brought it up.

...

...

...

Traders like Mohammed would have been vectors of both.

Point, counterpoint, point, counterpoint. That's the way these things always go...a regular ping pong match.

 

I'm not here to convince you. There is no compulsion to religion.

 

Peace. Odobknarf.

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One of the reasons why it is pointless to discuss this with you is because of the following response to the verse in question:

 

What on earth would have been the point of using a natural analogy about limits (which is what I assume is going on here) if the people hearing it didn't know what was being referred to? (I refer you to your point about the god being culturally appropriate in making an oath). For people in Arabia the actual existence of a freshwater lake large enough to be called a sea was probably a startling enough idea to make the point. I'll make a shrewd guess and postulate that rumours about the (unusually salty) Dead Sea and the (freshwater) Sea of Galilee had penetrated into Arabia Felix, along with confused rumours of Christianity. Traders like Mohammed would have been vectors of both.

I was absolutely floored when I read this. You see, you are guilty of the very charges you lay upon Believers...except in reverse. You assume it is not the word of God...and then come up with all kinds of reasons how this verse came into being...and apply your own 'logic' of what should or should not be written. This so-called 'logic' consists of nothing more than speculation and guesswork as noted by the highlights above. What does one say to 'reasoning' like that?

 

Fundamentally, you are not here to seek truth...only to refute Islam at any cost as is made abundantly clear from the above response. In these types of situations, there is no point of discussion. If, on the other hand, you were genuinely seeking to understand...your response would have reflected that...and I would certainly have chosen to continue my discussions with you.

 

Leave already indeed.

 

Peace. Odobknarf.

Edited by Odobknarf

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Of course I assume that it isn't the word of a god. I'm not a Muslim - I couldn't possibly assume that it's the word of a god. Do you read the Vedas assuming that the gods are real, and try to shoehorn science into their words? Of course you don't.

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packham......Do you think that atom exist spontaneously? Do you think the universe exist spontaneously? Do you think that your furniture in your home exist spontaneously? Do you think your car exist spontaneously? Do you think that you exist spontaneously?

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packham.....So you admit that we have to create a thread to discuss the origins of the universe. In other word, there must be a creator to create the thread. Therefore, there must a CREATOR(GOD) who had created the universe for it would not exist spontaneously. After all, a bunch of atheists cannot even create an atom of nothing!

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######, I've agreed that a supernatural being could have caused the Big Bang. We will probably never know. Everything in the universe was 'created' at the Big bang, apparently (and I'm going to believe scientists on this). Everything that has happened since the Big Bang has happened according to natural processes. Since the Big Bang there has been no evidence of any supernatural activity in the universe, so it's sensible to assume that there is none.

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Peace, It would be so nice if this thread continued minus the taunts or sarcastic remarks, keep an open mind and don't try to change the other persons way of thinking, let them think, understand and accept what they want, instead of trying to prove to the other person that what I am saying is right and if you don't believe that, then you are dumb.

 

Saying that, I would also hope the Non Muslims members of the Forum will remember thsat this is an Islamic Forum and being disrespectful about Allah, the Prophets, The Qur'aan, among other things is against the Forum Rules.

 

Regards, umAhmad.

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