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Re: Was Jesus God

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"It is not (possible) for any human being to whom Allah has given the Book and Wisdom and Prophethood to say to the people: 'Be my worshippers rather than Allah's.' On the contrary, (he would say): 'Be devoted worshippers of your Lord, because you are teaching the Book, and you are studying it.' Nor would he order you to take angels and Prophets for lords. Would he order you to disbelieve after you have submitted to God's will?" (Qur'an 3:79-80)

 

Further Reading:

 

 

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.learn-Islam(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/attachment.php?attachmentid=18&d=1146649613"]Beyond Mere Christianity.pdf[/url]

 

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.jesusthemuslim(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/"]According to the author:[/url]

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.learn-Islam(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/attachment.php?attachmentid=18&d=1146649613"]

[/url]

 

THE CHALLENGE OF Q

Speaking personally, I changed my own life because I could not ignore the implications of the authentic, stand-alone Gospel passages that today's most accomplished (non-Muslim!) scholars believe to be of the earliest date available.

These sayings, which form a reconstructed text known as Q, can all be found in the New Testament. They are almost certainly the closest we will ever be able to come to an authentic oral tradition reflecting the actual sayings of Jesus (pbuh).

Q CONFIRMS Islam

If you are new to Q, you should know what the best New Testament scholars now know, namely that today's scholarship identifies certain Gospel passages as not only instructive, but historically more relevant than other passages. This scholarship has led to some fascinating discussions among scholars (and a comparatively few lay readers).

I believe the Q verses tend to confirm Islam's depiction of Jesus (pbuh) as a human Prophet with a Divine mandate essentially indistinguishable from that of Muhammad (pbuh).

A HUMAN PROPHET

I did not develop the theory of Q. It has been around for years. "Traditionalist" Christian clergy and theologians are generally hostile to it. They claim that students of Q are somehow eager to diminish the status of Jesus (pbuh). Actually, we are eager to learn what he is most likely to have actually said.

Q represents a major challenge for contemporary Christianity, not least because it strongly suggests that Islam's picture of Jesus (pbuh) is historically correct. The fact that Q essentially confirms Islam's image of Jesus (pbuh) as a distinctly human Prophet has not, I think, been widely noticed by today's Christians. And it must be. Because a careful review of the scriptures demonstrates that Jesus (pbuh) is in fact calling his people to Islam.

 

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PropellerAds

Peace from our Lord,

"It is not (possible) for any human being to whom Allah has given the Book and Wisdom and Prophethood to say to the people: 'Be my worshippers rather than Allah's.'

You (or Your source?) are violating the following "(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.gawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?act=boardrules"]Rule[/url] listed downward":

 

"Do not type in capital letters, unless for a word or sentence. Capital letters are regarded as 'shouting' at others"

 

You say scholars found out

"namely that today's scholarship identifies certain Gospel passages as not only instructive, but historically more relevant than other passages"

I doubt that You will accept what these kind of scholars have found out about Qor'an. One basis for this research is the belief there is no direct revelation, i.e. you have to explain visions of angels, miracles and so on psychologically or so. I think it is hypocrisy to cite these scholars when You don't believe their methodology. Because if You would trust their methodology, You would come to the conclusion the qur'an is inferior to the Gospel Books, because he depends partially on them and distort their content.

 

So, it is safe to leave this trash aside. There is a theory of Q as a written source, but as to historically relevant, it is mere speculation to prefer Q to other sources, or other sources to Q. and it is high speculative to differentiate between various parts of Q, since we have no first-hand evidence for Q. I am not hostile to the theory of Q (aka theory of two sources), but I reject the specific conclusions You draw from special additions to this theory.

 

And some things contained in Q material:

Jesus called God "our father". He said God has given Him all power, and only He knew the Father and only the Father knew Him.

He urged his followers to "confess Him", lest he will deny them before God.

 

The Qor'anic description of Jesus? Show me the ayats that describe Him speaking of His heavenly father :D

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Peace AhQee,

 

I don't mean to interrupt but I think any question that starts, "Does God need..." is based on a faulty foundation. God, by definition "needs" nothing. Do you believe He "needed" to reveal the Quran to Muhammad, or was that just His plan? We are not in a position to judge or even talk about what God deems necessary except in terms of what He has revealed.

 

Both of our faiths are focused on what we believe God chose to do in history, not what He needed to do. Christians believe God did not need to become human and die as a propitiation for our sins, but that He chose to as the best way to reconcile sinful man to himself, to satisfy His justice while remaining true to His loving nature, and to ultimately bring highest glory to His name.

The topic is question was "Was Jesus God", for this I have made the post. You must understand that God does not want us to be ignorant, at least in the Quran he does not. "Elm" Knowledge is constantly emphasized, because god wants us to learn and explore the universe and our surroundings and question our existence. As stated in the Quran, god revealed it as a mercy upon mankind, so NO, he does not "need" to do anything, but he does simply as a mercy to mankind.

 

Christians believe God did not need to become human and die as a propitiation for our sins,

 

I am dumbfounded that Christians believe that God did not need to become human and die for propitiation for our sins. Why? because the concept of "original sin" states that everyone is born of sin.

 

But, let us move away from that for a moment, and question that if Jesus (god) did not have to come to earth and die for our sins. Then the notion that Jesus must be worshiped, is fallible. Because god would have other options rather then creating a "begotten son". What I am trying to exemplify is that, Jesus is no longer a central point in Christianity if the statement u provide is true to all Christians. This would make portions of the Bible subject to being false. Because u would no longer need to receive salvation through Jesus.

 

U are becoming more of a Muslim everyday. :D

Edited by AhQee

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Peace AhQee!

 

Hmmm. "looking by" took exception to my comment as well, so perhaps you are becoming more like him. :D

I must apologize, I simply did not state what I meant very well.

 

I am a professional artist who works with designers. I see the question of "did Jesus need to die" as a design issue. In theory, before creation, God could have chosen any number of designs for the cosmos, with any number of life forms in any degree of fellowship with Him. We live in the design he chose.

 

The Bible calls Jesus "the lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world." So from the Christian perspective, God knew man would fall, and purposed within Himself to come to earth as man, die and conquer death for the salvation of man before earth, man or death existed. Once God created the cosmos, the die was cast. So to be precise, from the beginning of time Jesus needed to die and be raised because that was the fulfillment of God's plan in the cosmos he created.

 

I would also have to humbly disagree with your subsequent assertions about Jesus. Even if God had a dozen potential doors to salvation we could only walk through the one He opened. God potentially having others available to Him does not diminish the goodness and glory of the revealed door.

 

Jesus taught, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

John 14:6

 

and

 

"Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture."

John 10:7-9

 

May God forgive me if I ever give the impression that Jesus is not the core of the Christian faith. He is the narrow part of the hourglass. Before his advent, all of history was flowing together to meet him at his coming. And after he ascended to the Father, all of history was expanding with the gospel covering the planet.

 

The Psalmist prophecied, "The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool." Christians believe that Jesus now sits at the right hand of the Father, who is turning sinners into saints. At the appointed time, the wrath of God will come and this prophetic Psalm will be fulfilled completely.

 

Getting back to the original topic, "Is Jesus God" and wrapping up my tangent, please read what the book of Revelation says about the beginning of God's wrath in the last days:

 

And I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a scroll written inside and on the back, sealed with seven seals. Then I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, "Who is worthy to open the scroll and to loose its seals?" And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll, or to look at it. So I wept much, because no one was found worthy to open and read the scroll, or to look at it. But one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals."

 

And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth. Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne. Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth."

 

Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice: "Worthy is the Lamb who was slain To receive power and riches and wisdom, And strength and honor and glory and blessing!" And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: "Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever!"

Rev 5:1-14

 

The scroll is God's righteous judgment on the earth. Jesus is worthy to open the scroll by virtue of his death, and the reconciliation that flowed from it. And as he takes the scroll from the Father, all heaven gives equal praise to the one on the throne and the lamb who was slain. Jesus is God

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The book of Revelations are considering dreams that Paul had, please use better sources to justify that Jesus claims divinity, or says "warship me".

 

Now, u state that salvation does indeed come through Jesus. However, there is a very odd dilemma involved with this notion. Because the pretext of "original sin" must constitute the death of Jesus. Also, u must validate that Jesus is to be worshiped without contradicting the words of god.

 

NOTE: I have provided full context for these passage, to make sure that the information that I have read in the Bible, is accurate. I am using the New International Verison. If you prefer me to use a different bible, please let me know.

 

God, proclaims non is to be worshiped but him the LORD.

He also states that the sin of the father well be passed on to his children.

Exodus 20:4-6

 

4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.

God, states that the sin of the father is to be board by the father, and not by the children.

 

Deuteronomy 24:16

Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin.

Deuteronomy 24:15-17 (in Context) Deuteronomy 24 (Whole Chapter)

 

NOTE: There are other quotes that I can provide that states the same contradictions. If the fallowing quotations have any flaws please let me know.

 

Now, since we established that Jesus is to be born, only to die in the cross. We must come to another dilemma. Was Jesus, a god or man? As u are a student of the Bible, I well not quote you about places where Jesus states to have limited knowledge.

 

As I am looking at Jesus as man/god in a logical perspective, perhaps u can explain to me why he has limited knowledge.

 

But having limited knowledge is not the only issue. A question arises if Jesus as god, had limit less knowledge, and knew that he would indeed die in the cross. Did Jesus as god commit suicide?

 

NOTE: Please forgive me if this offends any Christians, as to a Muslim it is very offensive to commit suicide, and to attributed to a man of god is even more heartfull. But, this is a debate, and a place to share and learn. For this reason, I am stating certain facts in the Bible, with skepticism.

 

the act of killing yourself; "it is a crime to commit suicide"

a person who kills himself intentionally

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=suicide"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=suicide[/url]

 

As stated in the bible:

 

John 10:17-18 reads: "For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father."

 

Now, the only notion that Jesus did not commit suicide is that, he was killed. But Jesus affirms that "I lay down My life so that I may take it again". If the "My Father" is a different entity, then Jesus has not committed suicide, but rather became a martyr. However as Christians stress that Jesus was god the "Father". A simple rule of god is broken, by god himself.

 

I hope to discuss this further after u presents a logical basis for:

- Jesus having limited knowledge.

- Jesus committing suicide.

- God stating contradictions in the bible.

- God stating that worshiping him well lead to salvation.

Edited by AhQee

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Peace from our Lord,

I am dumbfounded that Christians believe that God did not need to become human and die for propitiation for our sins. Why? because the concept of "original sin" states that everyone is born of sin.

No, we simply believe it because God has revealed it. We do not invent, at least I try not to invent a doctrine not contained in the Bible.

 

Because god would have other options rather then creating a "begotten son".

You are correct. Indeed the doctrine of trinity as explained by the (www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www./cathen/11044a.htm"]Council of Nicaea[/url] states explicitely that the only begotten son was not created:

"We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten of the Father, that is, of the substance [ek tes ousias] of the Father, God of God, light of light, true God of true God, begotten not made, ..." [Emphasis added]

 

I dare to disagree somewhat: since any act of begetting involves a creation of God, I think begetting or creating is indinstinguishable. But in the issue so closely related with these words, namely whether Jesus was Creator or created, that I understand why they could not see anything but the alternative "either begotten or created". And if I had to choose given this alternative, I will adhere to the fact that Jesus was begotten before all eternity.

 

Saying Jesus was created like the world was created would, in consequence, mean that something has been added to God, and this has been rejected as a heresy by virtually all Christian churches. We do not add anything created to God. Maybe some nontrinitarian do it, as obviously some people mentioned in the Qor'an did (if we can trust that book). But not Christians that accept the trinity doctrine.

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The book of Revelations are considering dreams that Paul had, please use better sources to justify that Jesus claims divinity, or says "warship me".

First: This book was not revealed to Paul, but to John. This is not that much important, but it shows You have little knowledge about our faith and I advice you to humbly ask ask if You don't understand something about it instead of rushing into erroneous conclusions.

 

Second: If we should drop that book because it contains "dreams", we should by the same matter drop the Qor'an with its "dreams" that Muhammad had. If you don't understand the difference between dream and vision, don't talk about religion at all.

 

The book of revelation has been (as the name implies) revealed by God:

Rev 1:1. The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John,

ÇÚáÇä íÓæÚ ÇáãÓíà ÇáÃí ÇÚØÇå ÇíÇå Çááå áíÑí ÚÈíÃÃ¥ ãÇ áÇ Èà Çä íßæä Úä ÞÑíÈ æÈíøäå ãÑÓáÇ Èíà ãáÇßå áÚÈÃÃ¥ íæÃäÇ .1

 

God, proclaims non is to be worshiped but him the LORD.

Agreed. Jesus is Lord, as you can see in the NT this even means Jesus is LORD, so we don't worshipp anything else than the Lord if we worship our Lord Jesus.

 

He also states that the sin of the father well be passed on to his children.

This applies to the reckoning of God.

 

God, states that the sin of the father is to be board by the father, and not by the children.

This applies to the punishment by men.

 

Was Jesus, a god or man?

Thats not a dilemma, that something we find also in other areas:

 

Are men accountable for their deeds, or is everything planned by God?

Does light consists of particles, or of waves?

 

In all these cases the correct answer is "both", in spite of our limited logic protesting against it.

 

As I am looking at Jesus as man/god in a logical perspective, perhaps u can explain to me why he has limited knowledge.

He had limited knowledge while being on earth.

 

Did Jesus as god commit suicide?

No.

 

Now, the only notion that Jesus did not commit suicide is that, he was killed.

He was killed by the Romans, but He gave His life as a ransom for us.

 

However as Christians stress that Jesus was god the "Father".

No. This is not the Christian faith. It was not the Father who left the heavens to be born as a human, it was Jesus.

 

[one typing error corrected]

Edited by looking by

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I hope to discuss this further after u presents a logical basis for:

- Jesus having limited knowledge.

- Jesus committing suicide.

- God stating contradictions in the bible.

- God stating that worshiping him well lead to salvation.

 

Peace AhQee!

 

Like looking by said, Jesus had limited knowledge while on earth. Why? He had to model perfect faith for us. He trusted the Father to the last, just as we should. It was a temporary, voluntary limit on his power while he accomplished his mission. Paul writes in Philippians 2:3-11

"Be humble, thinking of others as better than yourself. Don't think only about your own affairs, but be interested in others, too, and what they are doing. Your attitude should be the same that Christ Jesus had. Though he was God, he did not demand and cling to his rights as God. He made himself nothing; he took the humble position of a slave and appeared in human form. And in human form he obediently humbled himself even further by dying a criminal's death on a cross. Because of this, God raised him up to the heights of heaven and gave him a name that is above every other name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

 

As to suicide. Is it suicide for a soldier to roll on top of a grenade to save his comrades? No. It is a sacrifice. The grenade is going to go off regardless, and people will die. God's judgement is going to come regardless, and people are going to die. Jesus took on the punishment--rolled onto the grenade of God's wrath--that some might be saved. And just as all cultures would honor the soldier who sacrificed himself for others, we honor Jesus for sacrificing himself for our sakes. Read Isaiah 53, which prophecys about a suffering servant bearing the iniquities of others.

 

The contradictions you assert omit the entire system of sacrifice put forth in the Old Testament. Sacrificial animals died every day in the place of those offering them. God did not want people to be punished for crimes they did not commit, but by mercy allowed sacrifices to be offered so the Jews who sinned in that day could be made right with Him. Now honestly, what could the blood of an animal do? Nothing by themselves, but I think these sacrifices were "faith placeholders" waiting for the one true sacrifice that would really matter. It is interesting that one generation after the death of Jesus that the temple was destroyed and no sacrifices have been offered since. Christians believe that Jesus' sacrifice fulfilled all previous sacrifices and made all subsequent ones obsolete. The faith that was required to bring the sacrifice in the Old Testament and say "I believe God will forgive me" is the same faith that looks back to the sacrifice "from the foundation of the world" and says "I believe God has forgiven me." Faith is required to appropriate that forgiveness, and faith leads to a changed life; changed thoughts, changed priorities and changed actions.

 

There are multiple references in the gospels of Jesus receiving worship from people. (Matt 8:2, Matt 9:18, Matt 14:33, Matt 15:25, Matt 28:17, Mark 5:6, Luke 24:52, John 9:38) He never once rebuked it. Take the time to read the gospels carefully. Look at how many times Jesus said "I say..." and how many times he says "God says..." He clearly made himself the focus of his ministry.

 

"Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

 

He has the power to give rest to those that follow him, even 2000 years after his ascension. Jesus is Lord.

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Just curious....if you were a teacher, would you punish your best student in hopes that the worst student will become better?

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Peace from our Lord,

 

I see I have statied one point somewhat unclear:

I dare to disagree somewhat: since any act of begetting involves a creation of God, I think begetting or creating is indinstinguishable.

This is only meant in the context, that the Father begat the Son "before all eternity". Not for any cration or begetting. I hpoe this did not install a wrong impression to somebody.

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Peace from our Lord,

Just curious....if you were a teacher, would you punish your best student in hopes that the worst student will become better?

No, I won't. But that's not the issue: Jesus was not a "best student", He was the teacher. So the question in point would be: if You were a teacher, were You willing to sacrifice Yourself to save your students from a horrible destiny?

 

In a sense, you might call Jesus a "student", as said in the Bible:

 

Hebrews 5:8. Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.

ãÚ ßæäå ÇÈäÇ ÊÚáøã ÇáØÇÚÉ ããÇ ÊÃáã Èå .8

To learn this, the "punishment" was necessary. But as I pointed out above, this a minor point compared to the central theme of salvation.

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Christians believe that Jesus was fully human and fully divine. The human body of Jesus housed God, who is spirit, instead of a normal soul.

 

This is not so different from, "I who cannot fit into universes upon universes, fit into the heart of the sincere believer."

 

God's infinity should not be confused with bigness. His infinity fills both the biggest and smallest spaces, and the non-spaces, like our thoughts.

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If Jesus is God, then why in the Bible does it describe Jesus as falling on his face and praying?

 

If Jesus is God, who would God pray to?

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Peace from our Lord,

If Jesus is God, then why in the Bible does it describe Jesus as falling on his face and praying?

As "me" has said, Jesus is divine. There is a sort of "structure" in God, he is greater than a human person that can be existent only in one existence.

 

And Jesus was human, too.

 

If Jesus is God, who would God pray to?

I prefer to use the words: the Son prayed to the Father.

 

Maybe this will help somewhat to undestand the matter:

Philippians 2:5. Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,

6. who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

7. but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

8. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

9. For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,

10. so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

11. and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Ãáíßä Ãíßã Ã¥ÃÇ ÇáÃßÑ ÇáÃí Ãí ÇáãÓíà íÓæÚ ÇíÖÇ .5

ÇáÃí Çà ßÇä Ãí ÕæÑÉ Çááå áã íÃÓÈ ÎáÓÉ Çä íßæä ãÚÇÃáÇ ááøå .6

áßäå ÇÎáì äÃÓå ÂÎÃÇ ÕæÑÉ ÚÈà ÕÇÆÑÇ Ãí ÔÈå ÇáäÇÓ. .7

æÇà æÌà Ãí ÇáåíÆÉ ßÇäÓÇä æÖÚ äÃÓå æÇØÇÚ ÃÊì ÇáãæÊ ãæÊ ÇáÕáíÈ. .8

áÃáß ÑÃÚå Çááå ÇíÖÇ æÇÚØÇå ÇÓãÇ ÃæÞ ßá ÇÓã .9

áßí ÊÌËæ ÈÇÓã íÓæÚ ßá ÑßÈÉ ããä Ãí ÇáÓãÇà æãä Úáì ÇáÇÑÖ æãä ÊÃÊ ÇáÇÑÖ .10

æíÚÊÑà ßá áÓÇä Çä íÓæÚ ÇáãÓíà åæ ÑÈ áãÌà Çááå ÇáÂÈ .11

If You knew the Old Tesstament (the Torah and the other books God has revealed to the Jews), You would understand that the "name above all names" signifies the name of God He has revealed to Mose, rendered as "Lord" in traditional translations.

 

So, on the last day, everone has to confess that Jesus is Lord.

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Peace from our Lord,

 

As "me" has said, Jesus is divine. There is a sort of "structure" in God, he is greater than a human person that can be existent only in one existence.

 

And Jesus was human, too.

I prefer to use the words: the Son prayed to the Father.

 

Maybe this will help somewhat to undestand the matter:

Philippians 2:5. Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,

6. who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

7. but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

8. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

9. For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,

10. so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

11. and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Ãáíßä Ãíßã Ã¥ÃÇ ÇáÃßÑ ÇáÃí Ãí ÇáãÓíà íÓæÚ ÇíÖÇ .5

ÇáÃí Çà ßÇä Ãí ÕæÑÉ Çááå áã íÃÓÈ ÎáÓÉ Çä íßæä ãÚÇÃáÇ ááøå .6

áßäå ÇÎáì äÃÓå ÂÎÃÇ ÕæÑÉ ÚÈà ÕÇÆÑÇ Ãí ÔÈå ÇáäÇÓ. .7

æÇà æÌà Ãí ÇáåíÆÉ ßÇäÓÇä æÖÚ äÃÓå æÇØÇÚ ÃÊì ÇáãæÊ ãæÊ ÇáÕáíÈ. .8

áÃáß ÑÃÚå Çááå ÇíÖÇ æÇÚØÇå ÇÓãÇ ÃæÞ ßá ÇÓã .9

áßí ÊÌËæ ÈÇÓã íÓæÚ ßá ÑßÈÉ ããä Ãí ÇáÓãÇà æãä Úáì ÇáÇÑÖ æãä ÊÃÊ ÇáÇÑÖ .10

æíÚÊÑà ßá áÓÇä Çä íÓæÚ ÇáãÓíà åæ ÑÈ áãÌà Çááå ÇáÂÈ .11

If You knew the Old Tesstament (the Torah and the other books God has revealed to the Jews), You would understand that the "name above all names" signifies the name of God He has revealed to Mose, rendered as "Lord" in traditional translations.

 

So, on the last day, everone has to confess that Jesus is Lord.

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The name God revealed to Moses comprises the tetragrammaton, which is signified by the four Hebrew letters YHWH (Yod, Hey, Vav, Hey) – sans vowels, which were not written. This sacred tetragrammaton the Jews came to regard as too holy to utter and consigned its use to its written form. In the tetragrammaton’s stead, the Jews used the designations of Elohim and Adonai for recitation purposes. The challenge for English speakers reading the NT in translation (first from the Aramaic to the Greek and then on into English) is reliably and accurately distinguishing between Adonai (Lord/God) and Adoni (lord/master).

 

The spelling here in transliteration allows a phonetic differential between the two; but when written in Hebrew the distinction rests solely on punctuation. I confess to know nothing of Hebrew, but I do know that in Arabic the addition or subtraction of a “dot†transforms one letter of the alphabet into another, which convention holds true for all the Semitic languages. All of which means only this: if your language is limited to English, with what degree of certainty can you claim that each and every instance where the word Lord appears (and remember, capitalization is a relatively modern invention) definitively denotes Adonai and not Adoni? Just some food for thought.

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Peace from our Lord,

 

As "me" has said, Jesus is divine. There is a sort of "structure" in God, he is greater than a human person that can be existent only in one existence.

 

And Jesus was human, too.

I prefer to use the words: the Son prayed to the Father.

 

Maybe this will help somewhat to undestand the matter:

Philippians 2:5. Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,

6. who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

7. but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

8. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

9. For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,

10. so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

11. and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Ãáíßä Ãíßã Ã¥ÃÇ ÇáÃßÑ ÇáÃí Ãí ÇáãÓíà íÓæÚ ÇíÖÇ .5

ÇáÃí Çà ßÇä Ãí ÕæÑÉ Çááå áã íÃÓÈ ÎáÓÉ Çä íßæä ãÚÇÃáÇ ááøå .6

áßäå ÇÎáì äÃÓå ÂÎÃÇ ÕæÑÉ ÚÈà ÕÇÆÑÇ Ãí ÔÈå ÇáäÇÓ. .7

æÇà æÌà Ãí ÇáåíÆÉ ßÇäÓÇä æÖÚ äÃÓå æÇØÇÚ ÃÊì ÇáãæÊ ãæÊ ÇáÕáíÈ. .8

áÃáß ÑÃÚå Çááå ÇíÖÇ æÇÚØÇå ÇÓãÇ ÃæÞ ßá ÇÓã .9

áßí ÊÌËæ ÈÇÓã íÓæÚ ßá ÑßÈÉ ããä Ãí ÇáÓãÇà æãä Úáì ÇáÇÑÖ æãä ÊÃÊ ÇáÇÑÖ .10

æíÚÊÑà ßá áÓÇä Çä íÓæÚ ÇáãÓíà åæ ÑÈ áãÌà Çááå ÇáÂÈ .11

If You knew the Old Tesstament (the Torah and the other books God has revealed to the Jews), You would understand that the "name above all names" signifies the name of God He has revealed to Mose, rendered as "Lord" in traditional translations.

 

So, on the last day, everone has to confess that Jesus is Lord.

 

Ok...so...you didn't answer my questions.

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Peace belle74311,

Ok...so...you didn't answer my questions.

 

He did actually. The answer to your questions are...God the son prayed to God the Father.

 

As the scripture in Philippians 2 says, Jesus was God, but emptied himself as a servant. He entrusted himself to the Father, and relied on the Father completely, to model faithfulness, and to live a perfect righteous life. He left eternity and entered time and space, laid aside his glory and power and took on flesh, and humbled himself for our sakes. In that humbled state, Jesus prayed to the Father, because they remain one in spite of the circumstances.

 

The doctrine of the trinity was developed because of these kind of questions.

 

Have you read the gospels? They don't take long. If you are pressed for time you should at least read John, and count at how many statements Jesus makes about himself that really only God could make. Look at how many times Jesus calls people to himself, instead of God as a second party. Look at how closely Jesus identifies himself with the Father.

 

You might respond, the gospels are corrupted and untrustworthy. You are of course free to believe that, but please understand that it is a statement of faith and unsupported by the available facts.

 

Christians look at the manuscripts available, the fragments, (Nearly 25,000 ancient NT samples, 5600 in the original Greek) and all of the times the early church fathers quoted the New Testament in their writings (About 86,000 before the council of Nicea). Just from the quotes of the early Christians, we can reconstruct all but 11 verses of the New Testament. I will be honest with you, there is 1% of the New Testament text that we have today that is questioned by Christian scholars, but even if you strip out the 1%, none of the basic Christian doctrines are compromised. The evidence from history and textual criticism is that the New Testament is a reliable translation of the the originals.

 

So since we have grounds to trust the gospels, we take them as authoritative. What do they tell us? Jesus refers to himself as both the son of man and the son of God. He prays to the Father constantly, and yet he makes claims only God could make. "I am the resurrection and the life." "Before Abraham was, I AM." He claims to submit his will to the father's, "I only do what I see the Father doing." and yet claims that to see him is to see the Father. Consider what Jesus prayed shortly before his arrest:

 

"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one:"

John 17:20-22

 

Jesus states that he and the Father are one. He is in the Father and the Father is in him. Elsewhere he claims to have come from the Father and is going back to the Father.

 

Add the testimony of his beloved disciple John to the claims of Jesus :

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.

 

And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."

John 1:1-14

 

Christians cannot turn their backs on the revealed word of God, and so we must incorporate everything that Jesus and the apostles left for us. We honestly struggle to understand and preserve the texts of the gospels. Our scholars are honest about the questionable 1%. Our theology must incorporate all of the scriptures, and not just the easy ones. We do not have the option to pick and choose our scriptures. We cannot simply call Jesus a human prophet, or a good teacher. He stated that He was the Son of God, He was condemned for blaspheme because he stated at his trial that he was the Son of God. He made claims only God could make. He foretold his death and resurrection. He was raised from the dead. He blessed Thomas' confession of him as "My Lord and my God." His disciples went to their deaths proclaiming the lordship of Jesus, some from their own crosses.

 

In the face of all of this, how can we modern Christians dare say otherwise?

 

One other trinitarian thought. In Genesis 1 it says, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." The word God is actually plural, "elohim" but is translated as singular. This odd usage signifies multiple honor, multiple glory to one being. Now the Jews are no trinitarians, but they understood that the glory of God was something so unique that normal grammar couldn't describe or contain it. So their own scripture describes one God in pluralistic terms.

 

Christians also believe that God is one. We believe that we have come to know through Jesus, the glory of the one true God that must be described as plural. What the Jews could only hint at in their language, we have seen fulfilled. One God, three glories—"the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."

 

You ask good questions. I hope this is a sufficient answer.

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Peace from our Lord,

The spelling here in transliteration allows a phonetic differential between the two; but when written in Hebrew the distinction rests solely on punctuation. I confess to know nothing of Hebrew, but I do know that in Arabic the addition or subtraction of a “dot†transforms one letter of the alphabet into another, which convention holds true for all the Semitic languages.

No, in Hebrew punctuation refer solely to vocalization marks, that have been added to help the reader. They are comparable to the vowel marks in the Qor'an that are not used in ordinary arabic texts. To this You can add the dagesh dot, used to indicate long consonants or consonants not weakened.

 

There is only one instance where a dot is used to difeerentiate between different consonants in Hebrew: sin and shin. (The sin being originally śin, but the difference between śin and samekh has long been lost in Hebrew). Neither of these letters appears in the tetragrammaton.

 

All of which means only this: if your language is limited to English, with what degree of certainty can you claim that each and every instance where the word Lord appears (and remember, capitalization is a relatively modern invention) definitively denotes Adonai and not Adoni? Just some food for thought.

My language is definitely not limited to my mother tongue German. :D :D I don't rely on capitalisation, since in German all nouns are written with capital letters, so "Herr" can be "Lord" or "lord" (or even, like the Greek kurios, "Mr" or "sir").

 

Since the NT is not in Hebrew, but in the Greek language, it is not possible on pure linguistic inspection to find out where the Greek kurios stands for adonay or adoni. But in the text I quoted, an allusion to an OT text where the tetragrammaton appears and the mentioning of the "most high name" shows clearly what is meant. Indeed, the Jews nowaday consider even "adonai" so holy that they stopped using this word, speaking of the name of the Most High instead, when they mention God.

 

I can also quote verses from the NT where OT passages containing the tetragrammaton are not alluded, but quoted, and the translation "Lord" of the tetragrammaton is applied to Jesus.

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So you're saying... Jesus is praying to himself because you believe he's God and he was praying to the Father who is also God, but they're not separate but one.

 

???????????????????? What?????????????

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Peace from our Lord,

So you're saying... Jesus is praying to himself because you believe he's God

No, I did not say He prayed to himself. I said He prayed to the Father.

 

and he was praying to the Father who is also God, but they're not separate but one.

Yes. This is of course only an approximation. I do not claim that I understand God. He is greater, beyond understanding. We can only try to repeat or elaborate what He has revealed.

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Ok what are you trying to say exactly..because this is what's been told to me by you Christians:

 

Jesus is God

The Father is God

Jesus, who is God, prayed to the Father who is also God

But they are not 2 gods but one God

But Jesus did not pray to himself. He prayed to the Father God.

But Jesus is God.

 

What is this nonsense?

 

God makes sense. He makes everything clear to us. He understands the human knowledge and capabilities because He created us. And this is what God tells us:

 

Don't say Trinity. It's better for you. There is only ONE GOD. Jesus (pbuh) is NOT God, but rather one of the mightiest messengers of God.

 

I don't think you can get more clear than that.

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Peace from our Lord,

Ok what are you trying to say exactly..because this is what's been told to me by you Christians:

 

Jesus is God

The Father is God

Jesus, who is God, prayed to the Father who is also God

But they are not 2 gods but one God

But Jesus did not pray to himself. He prayed to the Father God.

But Jesus is God.

Right :D

 

What is this nonsense?

Just compare this to other instances where reality looks strange:

 

Light is electromagnetic waves.

Light consists of particles.

A wave is not a particle, yet light is both of them.

 

Or, another example:

 

You can measure the spin of an electron in every direction You like (up, down, north, east, upwards southwest etc.). It will always have the value +½ or -½, meaning that the spin axis points either to the direction You have chosen, or to the opposite direction.

These are the only two possibilities the spin axis of an electron can point to.

 

This is no nonsense, this is modern physics. And it is just as confusing as the statements we read about God in the Bible.

 

God makes sense. He makes everything clear to us. He understands the human knowledge and capabilities because He created us.

Yes, and He made clear that Jesus is divine.

Revelation 5:13. And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."

æßá ÎáíÞÉ ããÇ Ãí ÇáÓãÇà æÚáì ÇáÇÑÖ æÊÃÊ ÇáÇÑÖ æãÇ Úáì ÇáÈÃÑ ßá ãÇ ÃíåÇ ÓãÚÊåÇ ÞÇÆáÉ. ááÌÇáÓ Úáì ÇáÚÑÔ æááÎÑæà ÇáÈÑßÉ æÇáßÑÇãÉ æÇáãÌà æÇáÓáØÇä Çáì ÇÈà ÇáÂÈÃíä. .13

Jesus (symbolized by the lamb) and His Father (who sits on the throne) belong the same glory and worship.

 

Don't say Trinity

Oh no, God did not say this. This is Your interpretation.

 

I don't think you can get more clear than that.

Yes, You were rather clear. But I still stay by what God has said in or books us. We have been warned not to accept mesages that contradict what God has revealed through our Lord Jesus.

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This is no nonsense, this is modern physics. And it is just as confusing as the statements we read about God in the Bible.

 

The Bible is confusing...but you said it is not nonsense. OK...

 

Yes, and He made clear that Jesus is divine.

Revelation 5:13. And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."

æßá ÎáíÞÉ ããÇ Ãí ÇáÓãÇà æÚáì ÇáÇÑÖ æÊÃÊ ÇáÇÑÖ æãÇ Úáì ÇáÈÃÑ ßá ãÇ ÃíåÇ ÓãÚÊåÇ ÞÇÆáÉ. ááÌÇáÓ Úáì ÇáÚÑÔ æááÎÑæà ÇáÈÑßÉ æÇáßÑÇãÉ æÇáãÌà æÇáÓáØÇä Çáì ÇÈà ÇáÂÈÃíä. .13

Jesus (symbolized by the lamb) and His Father (who sits on the throne) belong the same glory and worship.

 

So this says nothing about Jesus (pbuh) being God.

In the Quran it says: Chapter 3 Verse 46

 

Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tiding of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God.

So yes, Jesus (pbuh) will be held in hnour for ever and ever, but he is not God nor son of God.

 

Oh no, God did not say this. This is Your interpretation.

 

Well even in the Bible...Trinity doesn't exist. And in the Quran God says Don't say Trinity.

 

Yes, You were rather clear. But I still stay by what God has said in or books us. We have been warned not to accept mesages that contradict what God has revealed through our Lord Jesus.

 

I'm sorry, but first you say the Bible is confusing, and then you say Islam is clear. Don't you realize?

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