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Mot

Re: Was Jesus God

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Hello to all, a while ago my other thread had been deleted and i have no idea why; my intention is not to talk badly about Muslims, simply i want a better understanding of your Religion, so i may understand what you say...

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PropellerAds

Here is a repost of my post:

 

 

[Regarding Jesus (peace be upon him) - he himself never said he was the son of God so this is actually a lie against him. he did not bring about a new religion.

 

This is simply not true. This is a myth and a falsehood that seems to be circuiting through the society right now, the idea that Jesus never referred to himself as the son of God, and he did not mean (I assume this is what you meant when you said he did not bring about a new religion, because he is obviously brought about a new religion--Chrisitianity) to bring about a new religion.

 

The truth is, according to the Bible, Jesus referred to himself as the Son of God and the Son of man many, many times. Many of these are recorded in the book of John, but the other three gospels contain these references too. In one place, Jesus healed a blind man and asked him if he "believed on the Son of God." The blind man said, "Who is he Lord, that I may believe on him?" Jesus answered, "It is both he that healed you, and he that speaketh to you right now." Of course this is only one example and there are many more in the Scripture.

 

Do not try to say that Jesus did not refer to himself as the Son of God, unless of course, you say the writers of these gospels just lied in saying that Jesus referred to himself as the Son of God, when he really didn't. That they just make that up and lied. Many of these writers gave their lives for the gospel of Christ and for Christianity. People don't die for something they know is false. If these writers knew that it was all the big hoax, do you really think they would have given their lives for it? No, of course not. People don't die for things they know are hoaxes (if that's a word).

 

 

Why do you think the Jews hated Jesus so much anyways? Because he claimed to be God. The Pharisee picked up stones to stone Jesus one day. Jesus asked them, " For which of my good works do you stone me?" The Pharisees replied, " We are not stoning you for your good works. We are stoning you because you being a man, make yourself God." Jesus both claimed to be the Son of God and to be equal with God. Anyone who claims otherwise must present proof, and I must admit, there is not proof to present.

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Also, Jesus did not necessarily bring about a new religion. From a secular, worldly point of view, yes he brought about "Christianity." But this had been in God's plans since the very beginning of time.

 

Jesus was the fulfillment of the Jewish Pentateuch or Torah or Law or whatever you want to call it. Jesus himself said, "I have come to fulfill the law." He was the Messiah sent to the Jewish people, but they did not recognize him as such. Instead, caught up in their own little religious ceremonies and games, they rejected him as Savior, and they killed him on a cross, and the third day he rose from the dead.

 

But Jesus knew he was going to die. He regularly spoke of how "the Son of man would be killed by the chief priests and scribes, and the third day would rise again." Any amateur student of the Scriptures can read these plain passages. Also, if Jesus did not mean to "start a new religion," then what about Matthew 28:19? In it Jesus tells his disciples, "Go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." What about Acts 1:8? Jesus says to disciples, " But ye shall receive power after that the Holy Ghost is come upon, and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem and in all Judaea and in Samaria and unto the uttermost parts of the earth." Do not try to say that Jesus did not come to "start a new religion." He obviously came to bring something new.

 

I do not know where you came up with these ideas, but they are simply not true. Go do a careful study of the most reliable historical document in the world--the Bible. Write back and take care. God bless!!

[/i]

 

 

Please dont delete my post, i only ask for answers...

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:D

 

 

"As He was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and asked Him, ‘Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?’ And Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.’" Mark 10:17-18

 

 

 

Explain...

 

w/salaam

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:D

 

 

btw.

 

 

I entreat you all to keep this civilized and not fight amongst yourselves!

 

Also don't ask too many questions in one go. Give the other person a chance to answer! point by point. So please one point one answer and quesiton. Otherwise it is really hard to debate!

 

w/salaam

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peace and love

 

Who are Eve's Parents ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dear Christians,

 

 

Eve was made from the rib of a Man, Jesus was made from a womb of a woman, which sounds more miraculous to you?"

 

 

Secondly, "Who then is Eve's second parent? you can suggest that she is from Adam, who then is Her Mother? Aren't all humans born with a Mother and Father?"

 

 

Mary's womb was barren and childless similar to Adam's rib, childless and barren.

 

 

Adam's rib made Eve and Mary's womb made Jesus.

 

 

Christians claim that Allah is Jesus's father, who then is Eve's Mother? Astagfurullah Astagfurullah

 

 

 

 

 

 

The womb and the rib were used as a tool by Allah to Create.

 

 

Eve was born from another human as Jesus was born from another human, Jesus was born with the help of Allah as Eve was born with the help of Allah, who then is Eve's mother?

Allah has no gender, and does not beget.

 

 

 

 

 

peace and love

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:D

"As He was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and asked Him, ‘Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?’ And Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.’" Mark 10:17-18

Explain...

 

w/salaam

 

Peace all,

The story continues:

 

"You know the commandments: Do not murder; do not commit adultery; do not steal; do not bear false witness; do not defraud; honor your father and mother." He said to Him, "Teacher, I have kept all these from my youth." Then, looking at him, Jesus loved him and said to him, "You lack one thing: Go, sell all you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow Me."

Mark 10:19-21

 

Please note that Jesus merely questioned the man's assumption. He never says he is not good, he only states that God alone is good. Does this man understand the implications of what he is saying? In fact, Jesus refers to himself as the good shepherd in John 10:11-15:

 

"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. The hired man, since he's not the shepherd and doesn't own the sheep, leaves them and runs away when he sees a wolf coming. The wolf then snatches and scatters them. This happens because he is a hired man and doesn't care about the sheep. I am the good shepherd. I know My own sheep, and they know Me, as the Father knows Me, and I know the Father. I lay down My life for the sheep."

 

You will not find a verse where Jesus says he is not good.

 

Then look at Jesus' response. He names most of the commandments but not the first and most important, which is to have no other gods before God. These other commandments the man has kept. The man was rich, and Jesus told him to give it all away. The man's wealth was an idol, and Jesus was challenging him to get rid of the false god of mammon and put the true God first by following him. Please note that Jesus equates faithfulness to God with following Jesus. It is too long of a subject to deal with here, but see in the gospels how often Jesus calls people to himself, and not to God as a third party. It is also telling how many claims Jesus makes about what he can or will do.

 

"Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, because I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

Matthew 11:28-30

 

He doesn't say "Come unto me and God will give you rest."

 

"For I have come down from heaven, not to do My will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of Him who sent Me: that I should lose none of those He has given Me but should raise them up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father: that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:38-40

 

Jesus say he will be the one doing the resurrecting. He is not an ordinary prophet who is the bearer of a message from God. The other prophets begin their messages with "the Word of the Lord came to me..." Jesus says over and over, "I say unto you..."

 

"You have heard that it was said, You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy. But I tell you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. For He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. For if you love those who love you, what reward will you have? Don't even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing out of the ordinary? Don't even the Gentiles do the same? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

Matthew 5:43-48

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peace and love

 

Who are Eve's Parents ?

 

Dear Christians,

Eve was made from the rib of a Man, Jesus was made from a womb of a woman, which sounds more miraculous to you?"

Secondly, "Who then is Eve's second parent? you can suggest that she is from Adam, who then is Her Mother? Aren't all humans born with a Mother and Father?"

Mary's womb was barren and childless similar to Adam's rib, childless and barren.

Adam's rib made Eve and Mary's womb made Jesus.

Christians claim that Allah is Jesus's father, who then is Eve's Mother? Astagfurullah Astagfurullah

The womb and the rib were used as a tool by Allah to Create.

Eve was born from another human as Jesus was born from another human, Jesus was born with the help of Allah as Eve was born with the help of Allah, who then is Eve's mother?

Allah has no gender, and does not beget.

 

peace and love

 

 

Peace all,

 

When you say, "Aren't all humans born with a Mother and Father?" aren't you suggesting that Adam had a mother? Wouldn't that be giving God a partner?

 

Your question "Who is Eve's mother?" makes no sense. Adam and Eve are unique, and may not have had belly buttons for all we know. We can't compare other people to them on the matter of their creation.

 

Christians believe that God created man and woman in His image. They bear a similarity to God but not his divine essence.

 

When we say God begat Jesus, we do not mean that God biologically reproduced like one of those disgusting Greek myths. We mean that God brought forth a son in Mary's womb who contained God's divine essence. We mean that eternal God entered humanity at a specific time and place. We do not disagree that much about the manner of Jesus' birth. Our disagreement remains over who Jesus really is.

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Guest amani

Hello Mot

 

your other thread has not been deleted infact it is the following link

 

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.gawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showtopic=24388&hl="]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.gawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showtopic=24388&hl=[/url]

 

so check out the replies :D

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Peace all,

 

When you say, "Aren't all humans born with a Mother and Father?" aren't you suggesting that Adam had a mother? Wouldn't that be giving God a partner?

 

Your question "Who is Eve's mother?" makes no sense. Adam and Eve are unique, and may not have had belly buttons for all we know. We can't compare other people to them on the matter of their creation.

 

Christians believe that God created man and woman in His image. They bear a similarity to God but not his divine essence.

 

When we say God begat Jesus, we do not mean that God biologically reproduced like one of those disgusting Greek myths. We mean that God brought forth a son in Mary's womb who contained God's divine essence. We mean that eternal God entered humanity at a specific time and place. We do not disagree that much about the manner of Jesus' birth. Our disagreement remains over who Jesus really is.

 

 

 

Peace and love,

 

Read my post again and answer it logically

 

The womb and the rib were used as a tool by Allah to Create. All humans r created by Allah

 

Adam, eve, Prophet jesus, you, me , your father, mother all r created by Allah.

 

If Adam and eve can be created by Allah without father and mother whats the impossibility for Allah to create jesus without a father. again should i say The womb and the rib were used as a tool by Allah to Create.

 

peace and love

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Peace and love,

 

Read my post again and answer it logically

 

The womb and the rib were used as a tool by Allah to Create. All humans r created by Allah

 

Adam, eve, Prophet jesus, you, me , your father, mother all r created by Allah.

 

If Adam and eve can be created by Allah without father and mother whats the impossibility for Allah to create jesus without a father. again should i say The womb and the rib were used as a tool by Allah to Create.

 

peace and love

 

Peace,

 

For me the question was never about what is more or less possible for God or even what is more likely. It is not impossible for God to create a person without a father. On the other hand, it is also not impossible for God to become incarnate, though I bet it's unthinkable to you. As far as I know, the only thing impossible for God is to be untrue to Himself. He can't be other than He is.

 

We have two sources of information about Jesus' nature. It boils down to which we hold to be more credible. I trust the gospels over the Quran. I trust what Jesus said about himself more than any other prophet said about him. I trust the testimony of those who knew Jesus personally more than of those who followed 600 years later.

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I realy mean no disrespect but as I see the history of the world involving conflicts behind the banner of Faiths .It seems to be a very Earthly and trible excuse to justify violent actions .''Was Jesus God?''. God is not God. These Peoples long dead were limited in thier understanding of the world ,nature and natural events .Not to mention ,what was flying around the skys ,not of this earth . I know I dont comment much here ,but I am hearing alot of ''My God ,thier God saber rattling in the real world . I blame the exploiters of fear ,repression , greed and hate hinding behind the shiel of thier Gods. , peace now ,Moris

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Peace from our Lord,

"As He was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and asked Him, ‘Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?’ And Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.’" Mark 10:17-18

Explain...

He just made clear what the words the young man spoke really meant. He didn't like hollow courtesies.

 

This quotationen does not wipe the many verses Jesus called himself the son of His father in heaven.

 

Just one example:

Mt 10:32. "Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven.

Ãßá ãä íÚÊÑà Èí ÞÃÇã ÇáäÇÓ ÇÚÊÑà ÇäÇ ÇíÖÇ Èå ÞÃÇã ÇÈí ÇáÃí Ãí ÇáÓãæÇÊ. .32

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Peace from our Lord,

I realy mean no disrespect but as I see the history of the world involving conflicts behind the banner of Faiths

Sadly true.

 

It seems to be a very Earthly and trible excuse to justify violent actions

Yes, and most people here will agree. Those who get violent seem to be at other places.

 

God is not God.

Sounds illogical. I can't figure out Your point.

 

These Peoples long dead were limited in thier understanding of the world ,nature and natural events

They didn't claim much understanding. All they claimed was that God had revealed something. Not just understanding of everything (gravity, air pressure, or whatever You might think about).

 

So the point is not how much these people knew, but whether God has revealed something to them or not.

 

I blame the exploiters of fear ,repression , greed and hate hinding behind the shiel of thier Gods. , peace now ,Moris

Not all are exploiters. And don't forget, there are exploiters of anti-religious feelings, too. Millions of Christians were killed by atheists in the 20th century. I suppose there is no idea that can't be exploited in some evil way.

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Peace from our Lord,

Dear Christians,

Eve was made from the rib of a Man, Jesus was made from a womb of a woman, which sounds more miraculous to you?"

God spoke from heaven at Mount Sinai, and He sent Jesus from heavens to Palestine, which sounds more miraculous to You?

 

Secondly, "Who then is Eve's second parent?

Define parent. In special cases like Eve, the definition must be precise.

 

you can suggest that she is from Adam, who then is Her Mother? Aren't all humans born with a Mother and Father?"

If You believe this: who was the father of Jesus? Who was the mother of Adam? Are You sure You really believe what You said?

 

Christians claim that Allah is Jesus's father, who then is Eve's Mother?

Yes, before the earth was created, Jesus was born out of heavenly Father. He had no mother (not yet), and I think Eve had none, either.

 

The womb and the rib were used as a tool by Allah to Create.

No objection.

 

Allah has no gender, and does not beget.

When God begets, no woman is involved according to the Bible. But everyone who believes in Jesus as Saviour is born, or begotten by God. You can translate the verse that contains this statement in both ways (born/begotten), just because God has no gender.

 

I am born again from God, don't tell me this didn't happen. I know better :D

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Just use simple LOGIC to answer the question.

 

Can a Immortal go reside in a mortal body?

Did Jesus (PBUH) have infinit knowledge, while having limited knowledge?

Did Jesus (PBUH) know he was god? If so was he really human?

 

U can ask millions of questions as to why Jessus (PBUH) is NOT god.

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:D

 

 

The problem with your agruments are that Jesus didn't write the Gospels. Johns was written first, and it didn't have miracles or really make Jesus seem divine. The later and later the gospels were written the more magic was included and the more it made Jesus seem like God. It was the writers who were trying to start a religion, not Jesus.

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Here is a repost of my post:

 

Do not try to say that Jesus did not refer to himself as the Son of God, unless of course, you say the writers of these gospels just lied in saying that Jesus referred to himself as the Son of God, when he really didn't. That they just make that up and lied. Many of these writers gave their lives for the gospel of Christ and for Christianity. People don't die for something they know is false. If these writers knew that it was all the big hoax, do you really think they would have given their lives for it? No, of course not. People don't die for things they know are hoaxes (if that's a word).

 

 

Peace Mot

 

People do die even after knowing something untrue.Some third world (india , bangladesh, nepal,srilanka etc)countries people die for their politics even though they do know that their politics is bad .What they are doing is not for people .It is because ( at least i believe ) they wanna be hero .You may research for it.When any political party call any hartal ,they can even sacrifice their life for sake of their party.

 

 

was salam

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Peace from our Lord,

Just use simple LOGIC to answer the question.

OK, lets try whether simple logic is sufficient to grasp God.

 

Can a Immortal go reside in a mortal body?

You think this is impossible for God? Let me tell You God is greater than You think. It is not impossible for Him.

 

Did Jesus (PBUH) have infinit knowledge, while having limited knowledge?

Of course not. Who claimed such nonsense?

 

Did Jesus (PBUH) know he was god?

I'm not sure, I think yes.

 

If so was he really human?

Yes.

 

U can ask millions of questions as to why Jesus (PBUH) is NOT god.

Your logic proves what Christians have found out long ago: that Jesus was not God in the sense all of God was Jesus. God can be in more than one place at one time, You cannot apply simplicistic logic that assumes this is impossible.

 

Let me ask a question: the light that touches Your eyes, is it composed of particles, or of waves? Simple logic tells you it can't be both ... yet it is both!

 

Same with our Lord Jesus ... Your simple logic is inappropriate, the logic needed is rather a logic related to quantum logics.

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Peace from our Lord,

 

Pete, I can't see whom You are replying to.

 

The problem with your agruments are that Jesus didn't write the Gospels. Johns was written first, and it didn't have miracles or really make Jesus seem divine.

You never looked into, hm? John is the Gospel that contains the clearest marks of Jesus being divine. It reports miracles like raising Lazarus from the dead. And it ends with the words:

John 21:25. And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written.

æÇÔíÇà ÃÎÑ ßËíÑÉ ÕäÚåÇ íÓæÚ Çä ßÊÈÊ æÇÃÃÉ æÇÃÃÉ ÃáÓÊ ÇÙä Çä ÇáÚÇáã äÃÓå íÓÚ ÇáßÊÈ ÇáãßÊæÈÉ Âãíä .25

 

The later and later the gospels were written the more magic was included and the more it made Jesus seem like God. It was the writers who were trying to start a religion, not Jesus.

Please read the Gospels before You talk about them.

The word religion is defined differently, up the point that there was a book by a Norwegian bishop with the title "Christianity contra Religion". So whether Jesus wanted to found a new religion depends on the definition of "new religion".

 

The core of the Christian faith is that God saved us by what He did in our Lord Jesus the Anointed. And what happened was foretold by Jesus, so you can't say He did not want this faith to be created. No, He wanted it, and He has confirmed this to some of His followers by appearing them after he ascended to heavens.

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To tell me looking by if god is not logical, then answer these questions for me.

 

1) Can god exile me from his domain?

2) Can god create something that he can not destroy?

 

 

God is logical, he does godly things. Yes perhapse god can become man, but does god need to be a man to forgive our sins? Does he need to secrifice his "son" to forgive our sins?

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To tell me looking by if god is not logical, then answer these questions for me.

 

1) Can god exile me from his domain?

2) Can god create something that he can not destroy?

God is logical, he does godly things. Yes perhapse god can become man, but does god need to be a man to forgive our sins? Does he need to secrifice his "son" to forgive our sins?

 

Peace AhQee,

 

I don't mean to interrupt but I think any question that starts, "Does God need..." is based on a faulty foundation. God, by definition "needs" nothing. Do you believe He "needed" to reveal the Quran to Muhammad, or was that just His plan? We are not in a position to judge or even talk about what God deems necessary except in terms of what He has revealed.

 

Both of our faiths are focused on what we believe God chose to do in history, not what He needed to do. Christians believe God did not need to become human and die as a propitiation for our sins, but that He chose to as the best way to reconcile sinful man to himself, to satisfy His justice while remaining true to His loving nature, and to ultimately bring highest glory to His name.

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Peace from our Lord,

To tell me looking by if god is not logical, then answer these questions for me.

I didn't say God is illogical. I said your logic is inferior to God, unable to grasp Him.

 

1) Can god exile me from his domain?

What do You mean by "His domain"? Paradise? Heaven? Whole creation? I dont understand

 

2) Can god create something that he can not destroy?

Reminds me to a question sometimes posted by unbelievers: Can He create a stone so heavy that He can't lift it up? A handy "refution" of the concept of almighty by a simple logic :D I leave it as homework to you to find out the fallacy in it :D

 

God is no liar, so He will never destroy His word. If You want, we can now start to discuss whether His word is "created". ...

 

God is logical, he does godly things

:D You're right, His Godly logic is far superior to Your logic :D

Never forget: God ist greater!

 

Yes perhapse god can become man, but does god need to be a man to forgive our sins? Does he need to secrifice his "son" to forgive our sins?

God said it was necessary. If You have doubts, argue with God :) All I can say is an old quotation from a scholar, I have forgotten the name: "You did not justly ponder the weight of sin".

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:D

"As He was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and asked Him, ‘Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?’ And Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.’" Mark 10:17-18

Explain...

 

w/salaam

 

 

 

[/quote

 

 

God is good, no doubt.

If we are to believe what you imply here, then we must take this staement of Jesus

to mean what you imply..that Jesus is not good

and this cannot be done.

The only way this statement of Jesus can be

recieved is that only God is good, then Jesus

must indeed be be God

because Jesus is GOOD, no doubt.

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Peace from our Lord,

I don't mean to interrupt but I think any question that starts, "Does God need..." is based on a faulty foundation. God, by definition "needs" nothing.

Agreed.

 

Christians believe God did not need to become human and die as a propitiation for our sins, but that He chose to as the best way to reconcile sinful man to himself, to satisfy His justice while remaining true to His loving nature, and to ultimately bring highest glory to His name.

I understood AhQee's question such: was it possible for God to forgive us by another way? Not whether he "needed" to forgive us.

 

When I read verses like

Hebrews 9:22. And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness

æßá Ôíà ÊÞÑíÈÇ íÊØåÑ ÃÓÈ ÇáäÇãæÓ ÈÇáÃã æÈÃæä ÓÃß Ãã áÇ ÊÃÕá ãÛÃÑÉ .22

Note: "Law" refers to the Torah.

or the prayer of Jesus

Mark 14:36. And He was saying, "Abba! Father! All things are possible for You; remove this cup from Me; yet not what I will, but what You will."

æÞÇá íÇ ÇÈÇ ÇáÂÈ ßá Ôíà ãÓÊØÇÚ áß. ÃÇÌÒ Úäí Ã¥ÃÃ¥ ÇáßÇÓ. æáßä áíßä áÇ ãÇ ÇÑíà ÇäÇ Èá ãÇ ÊÑíà ÇäÊ. .36

then I come to the conclusion there was no other way. Maybe the conclusion is wrongsmilie_frage.gif

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