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llogical

About Atheism..

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How about using the dictionary to lookup below two words.

1.Athiest

2.Agnostic.

You brought no new knowledge to the table.

:D

I'm pretty sure an agnostic is the simplest form of an atheist - no belief in god.

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llogical, I know very well what the words atheist and agnostic mean. I am, after all, an agnostic atheist.

yeah yeah I see the bold letters...it's like I can never spell this god forsaken word right :D

I'm pretty sure an agnostic is the simplest form of an atheist - no belief in god.

thx 3d....now we know that Ms. Spell check here is a simpleton.

( I had to vent :D )

 

When I opened this thread, I was looking for people who say "God doesn't exist and here is why....."

I guesss, I overlooked the variety of atheism(<- spelled it right this time, thx to Nex)

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No athiest is athier than me. So thier, you thiests.

 

Agnosticism, on the other hand, is a term coined by TH Huxley.

 

"So I took thought, and invented what I conceived to be the appropriate title of "agnostic." It came into my head as suggestively antithetic to the "gnostic" of Church history, who professed to know so much about the very things of which I was ignorant. To my great satisfaction the term took."

 

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_en.wikipedia(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/wiki/Agnosticism#Thomas_Henry_Huxle"]Agnosticism[/url]

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I'm pretty sure an agnostic is the simplest form of an atheist - no belief in god.

It depends. I use the terms in their philosophical sense, of which the definitions are:

 

Agnostic: A person who does not believe mankind can have absolute knowledge of the existence of god/s.

 

Atheist: A person who lacks belief in god/s.

 

I do not believe any human can have absolute knowledge of a deity. I also don't have faith in any deity. Therefore, I am an agnostic atheist.

 

We could go more in-depth...

 

There are, philosophically, two types of atheists; hard and soft. Hard atheists say "There is no god." Soft atheists say "I do not believe in a god." I am a soft atheist. It's a subtle difference, but a difference none the less. :D

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I'm pretty sure an agnostic is the simplest form of an atheist - no belief in god.

 

 

 

peace and love

 

agnostic means: Uncertain of all claims to knowledge, A person who doubts truth of religion

 

while for atheists: Someone who denies the existence of god

 

 

 

which category u in????? sounds like u r agnostic coz u r searching for the knowledge of religion, how u can be an atheists? if you were an atheists u wouldn be here talking with pplz those who have religion, it means u have doubt about truth??? isnt??

 

 

 

peace and love

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peace and love

 

agnostic means: Uncertain of all claims to knowledge, A person who doubts truth of religion

 

while for atheists: Someone who denies the existence of god

 

 

 

which category u in????? sounds like u r agnostic coz u r searching for the knowledge of religion, how u can be an atheists? if you were an atheists u wouldn be here talking with pplz those who have religion, it means u have doubt about truth??? isnt??

 

 

 

peace and love

I believe 3d is a soft atheist or agnostic atheist.

It's hard to find a label for myself but consider me a similar animal.

I used to be a muslim though.

peace

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peace and love

 

agnostic means: Uncertain of all claims to knowledge, A person who doubts truth of religion

 

while for atheists: Someone who denies the existence of god

 

which category u in????? sounds like u r agnostic coz u r searching for the knowledge of religion, how u can be an atheists? if you were an atheists u wouldn be here talking with pplz those who have religion, it means u have doubt about truth??? isnt??

 

peace and love

Peace to you, Risalat. :D

 

I can say that yes, for myself, I have doubts as to whether there is a god, and I also have doubts as to whether there is not a god. I am uncertain -- I do not truly know.

 

As Voltaire said, "Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is an absurd one."

 

Surely even Muslims -- good, virtuous Muslims -- have doubts from time to time. Isn't that the entire premise of faith, to believe even in the presence of doubt and insecurity? After all, if you knew, you would have no need for faith would you? :D

 

Risalat, we all have doubts from time to time, whether we're Muslims, or Christians, or Buddhists, or atheists. There's nothing wrong with having doubts and questions as long as we address them openly and honestly.

 

As always, in peace. :D

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Surely even Muslims -- good, virtuous Muslims -- have doubts from time to time

Not true.

The creed of Islam is based on doubtless belief on Allah.

peace

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I think its the other way around .

 

The most sure of themselves athiests have doubts of a creators existence sooner or later .

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Not true.

The creed of Islam is based on doubtless belief on Allah.

peace

 

You are supposed to attain doubtless belief in Allah, but the Shaydaan whispers and causes doubts. Iman (Faith) Falls and Rises for normal people like us, that is why we struggle in the path of Allah to gain stronger Iman.I believe People who have attained perfection have doubtless belief in Allah. As long as we turn to Allah when our faith is low, we can be forgiven insha'Allah. Please Correct me if I am wrong

 

Atheist have allowed their doubts and Nafs to overcome them, they believe their logic justifies their abandon of religion. In the end we will see, for Allah is the Most Wise, and the Greatest of Judges.

 

Salamu Alaikum

Edited by alim_in_training

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Not true.

The creed of Islam is based on doubtless belief on Allah.

peace

Peace Ilogical,

 

Yes, I am aware of the creed of faith, but show me a perfect Muslim. :D I have never seen a perfect person who manages to always adhere to the tenets of their belief at all times. Not even an atheist is perfect at their adherence to logical thought. We are all just humans, after all.

 

Thank you, alim_in_training, for your thoughtful response. :D

 

As always, in peace and in hopes of better understanding.

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I think its the other way around .

 

The most sure of themselves athiests have doubts of a creators existence sooner or later .

 

 

Salaam

 

How can a person doubt the existence of a creator?

 

the aspect of a creator is one that makes a lot of sense to me.

this is how i think:i hope i can make things slightly clear 4 you guys.

is their any thing in this world that has made or created it self? any thing as small as a bacteria. never mind the universe. so obviously their is a creator of universe and every thing within it.

even if the big bang happened or what ever some one had to make that happen, or make the original particle from which every thing happens.

 

but a person can have doubt about the truth of a religion, but this can be solved by studying different religions, mostly people searching for truth come to the conclusion that Islam is the most true religion on earth.

 

peace

Edited by twinkle

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Atheist have allowed their doubts and Nafs to overcome them

Not sure what u mean by this.

And not sure how Satan jumped into our converstaion.

The entity of God is the first and most important premise all theists take.

My point was that In Islam, u don't rationalize God..And when u dont do that...there is no doubt..Thus

the creed is based on this a doubtless belief. The fact if anything comes from God...It doesn't need any logical proof.

That's what my point was.

peace

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Salaam

 

How can a person doubt the existence of a creator?

 

the aspect of a creator is one that makes a lot of sense to me.

this is how i think:i hope i can make things slightly clear 4 you guys.

is their any thing in this world that has made or created it self? any thing as small as a bacteria. never mind the universe. so obviously their is a creator of universe and every thing within it.

even if the big bang happened or what ever some one had to make that happen, or make the original particle from which every thing happens.

 

but a person can have doubt about the truth of a religion, but this can be solved by studying different religions, mostly people searching for truth come to the conclusion that Islam is the most true religion on earth.

 

peace

 

:D

 

I did not say a person , I said an athiest ( person ) .

 

shukran

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Atheist have allowed their doubts and Nafs to overcome them

 

Let me break it down for you Illogical.

 

The Shaydaan, the enemy of Mankind, wants you to doubt you religion, which is Islam, so that your faith hits rock bottom, and you reject your religion and Allah. Doubts of Allah, cause you to question Allah's existence, and then dangerous thoughts creep into your mind, and then you decide I am independent. I do not need/have a creator. Your nafs, which is your Ego illogical, loves the fact that you think you are independent, because now it can do anything it wants. You want, because of your ego, to have pre-marital sex, and to steal and such, so Atheists, in my eyes, have allowed their Nafs and Doubts to take control. Sorry if I offended anybody.

 

I have never seen Allah, nor has any other Muslim, so to have completely, rock-hard, concrete Faith in Allah is a gift and a privelege. and such person would not sin for one second. I only hope to attain such a state in my life. I have still have very strong Faith that Allah is there and is watching, but sometimes your faith sinks because of the Shaydaan, the devil illogical, gets to you, and you either forget, or whatever. The Muslim's faith goes up and down, the Prophet's faith rises and rises and the Angels' faith stays the same.

 

If someone finds my logic erred, please correct me.

 

Salamu Alaikum

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Peace to All. :D

Yes, I am aware of the creed of faith, but show me a perfect Muslim.

Show me a perfect person. Doesn't exist.The concept of perfection isn't practical.

is their any thing in this world that has made or created it self?

This line of thought is flawed because.. how would u explain God..didn't he create himself ?

Doubts of Allah, cause you to question Allah's existence, and then dangerous thoughts creep into your mind, and then you decide I am independent. I do not need/have a creator. Your nafs, which is your Ego illogical, loves the fact that you think you are independent, because now it can do anything it wants

This sounds more clear.

So Nafs is Ego and Ego wants to be free of any bounds.

Here is my problem than...how do u know that your ego is wrong?

furthermore the doubt arises due to lack of understanding..Not due to Ego.

If I see the blood as red, My senses confirm that it's red...considering that I am not color blind, I will

disagree with the world if the world says that it's not red. Call it ego but to me that's what I define as strong faith.And same applies for reason or logic.

You say that God exists but than there is no way to prove this... we have to take this fact as a given.

This is why doubt remains...because One can't understand God through senses, reason or experience.If that is built into the nature of God,than I am bound to not know for ever.

Under such circumstance, Doubt is immanent. If u just say, "listen llogical u are too stupid to understand the existance of God,so just take my word for it"...to me this is blind faith.

I will not Assume that Satan leads me astray because of many reasons ..the most basic one being the fact that again...I can't see,reason or experience Satan.

Things that can't be understood are only imaginative..their reality may or may not be true and to assume it that it is true....to me is not strong faith but dillusion.

Also, Based on similar thoughts and similar principle of logic that u stand for,I can prove to u that I can Fly... and we know that's not true but I can prove it.

peace :D

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[ snipped for space ]

even if the big bang happened or what ever some one had to make that happen, or make the original particle from which every thing happens.

Peace to you twinkle :D

 

You say that everything must come from something, yes?

 

Then where did the creator come from?

 

If the creator could have always existed, then so could the universe.

 

Peace. :D

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Peace alim_in_training :D

 

I know this was directed at Ilogical, but if I may:

 

[snipped for space ]

Your nafs, which is your Ego illogical, loves the fact that you think you are independent, because now it can do anything it wants. You want, because of your ego, to have pre-marital sex, and to steal and such, so Atheists, in my eyes, have allowed their Nafs and Doubts to take control. Sorry if I offended anybody.

You have not offended me, but that's because I have heard this many times before, from Christians mostly. :D

 

I will say that I have my own ethics and morals that I follow as an atheist. I do not steal. I do my best to speak truthfully, though we all know there are instances when, unfortunately, a small lie is better than the truth (normally so we do not hurt another unnecessarily with our words). I do not resort to violence for any reason except if my life or that of another is threatened directly. I did have pre-marital sex and I see no reason why it would be "wrong." I wear "regular" western attire -- t-shirt and jeans, mostly; if a man has lustful thoughts about me because I leave my neck and hair exposed, it is his mind and I do not accept responsibility for what he thinks. I make up my own mind on what is ethical and what is not, and even what floats inbetween ethical and unethical in that weird state of ethics limbo.

 

But please do not continue to say that atheists all want to steal, or murder, or cheat, or lie. Some do; many do not. I find it rude, in all honesty. It's like saying Muslims are all terrorists -- it's insulting to an entire group of people, and for no reason other than to make one feel better about oneself. I think that kind of thinking roots itself in egocentric and ethnocentric pride, honestly.

 

Peace to you, and in the spirit of better understanding. :D

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Peace Nex,

 

I understand exactly what you are saying, but what I am saying, is that there is nothing to restrict you from doing wrong. Yet no one is stopping you, you do not do it. This nature reflects the Fidtra (read above for Fidtra).

 

This Nafs exists in everybody, not just Atheists, I have thought about stealing and such, but I restrict myself because of fear of a Creator, and because of the guilt I will feel that is given to me for doing wrong. When I was small, I did not understand Laws, or Religion or a Creator, but I felt guilty for hitting my sister. This is another aspect of the human being. The Fidtra.

 

As we grow up we start to lose our true morals. The Fidtra starts to fade because there is a line that we cross, and the more we cross that line the more it fades. A person who steals his whole life will not feel guilty for stealing

 

When a book comes and tells humans to be the best they can possibly be, and the morals in it are very high, we must say this book cannot be from a human, because a human would want to do bad. Its in our nature. If a Human made that book, he would say its ok to sleep with women all you want. He justifies his desires and has others following his line of thought. Do you see where I am going with this?

 

I make up my own mind on what is ethical and what is not, and even what floats inbetween ethical and unethical in that weird state of ethics limbo.

 

I'm sorry to say this is flawed, if all humans were to choose their morals, mankind would be in a state of garbage, as is what is happening now. Mankind would adjust their morals to their desires. Tell me Nex, a person who desires someone else's $100, if he had the chance to choose morals would he say that stealing is prohibited?

 

I understand that you are pretty moral, but if we allowed everyone to choose their morals, right and wrong, where would we be.

 

Salamu Alaikum

Edited by alim_in_training

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This line of thought is flawed because.. how would u explain God..didn't he create himself ?

 

Allah always existed, don't ask me to explain it, because the only explanation I have is that Allah is not of this Universe. This universe is governed by Space and Time, Allah is not. Allah did not create Himself, for He was always there. Allah created Space and Time, and is not governed by ANY of His creations.

 

"He did not Beget not was He Begotten"

 

The Universe IS governed by Space and Time and therefore needs a beginning and an ending. Please do not bring 3d in here with his theories and logic, it makes my head hurt :D. Nothing in THIS universe created itself. Nor did the Universe. Nor could it have always existed.

 

Salamu Alaikum

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Peace alim_in_training :D

 

Pardon me for snipping your post -- I just want to cut to the chase, so to speak. :D

I'm sorry to say this is flawed, if all humans were to choose their morals, mankind would be in a state of garbage, as is what is happening now. Mankind would adjust their morals to their desires. Tell me Nex, a person who desires someone else's $100, if he had the chance to choose morals would he say that stealing is prohibited?

I don't know what he would say -- I'm not him. I can say that many times I've been tempted to steal, but I have not because I do not want to be stolen from myself.

 

I, and many atheists I have personally come into contact with, base morals on empathy. I don't want someone to steal my money, so why would I steal someone else's? I don't need god for that, just knowledge of how I want to be treated. The Golden Rule, some call it. :D

 

I understand that you are pretty moral, but if we allowed everyone to choose their morals, right and wrong, where would we be.

Everyone does choose their own morals, at least where I live (USA). The line of law is only drawn where your choice affects other people, and/or society as a whole. Some arguments can be made that some US laws impinge on private choice (abortion, drug laws), but on the whole that's not the case.

 

When it comes to morals handed down via religion, I'm pretty firmly convinced that we all choose what we believe and follow. Many people are Christian, and follow Christian morals in the way they interpret them to be. Many are Buddhist and do the same. Many are Muslim, and also follow the Islamic morals as they interpret them. You choose what you believe, including morals and ethics. To ramble on, I suspect that people choose their religion based on whether they agree with the morals taught -- as we can see, a good amount of people agree with the morals of Islam, but many agree with the similar morals of Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc. I find it interesting on a psychological level that so many religions teach that people are inherently evil when we can plainly see that people choose to follow, for the most part, morals determined by the Golden Rule -- treat others as you would wish to be treated. How can we possibly be inherently evil when we freely choose to follow the Golden Rule, in whatever religion it has been packaged?

 

To throw this long rambling post into a nutshell, you too have chosen your own morals, alim_in_training. You chose the morals neatly packaged in a religion called Islam.

 

Peace and good wishes to you, alim_in_training. Thank you for your thoughtful responses. :D

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Allah always existed, don't ask me to explain it, because the only explanation I have is that Allah is not of this Universe. This universe is governed by Space and Time, Allah is not. Allah did not create Himself, for He was always there. Allah created Space and Time, and is not governed by ANY of His creations.

 

"He did not Beget not was He Begotten"

Salamu Alaikum

U missed my point.

some one asked how can something exist with out a creator, my reply was perhaps just like

the creator exists without a creator..

I know no one can explian God..becasue God is imaginary...well, atleast our knowledge of his existance is imaginary.

Please do not bring 3d in here with his theories and logic, it makes my head hurt

LOL, I won't .. :D

 

And just to comment on the morailty thing...DO u believe that human are naturally bad? because if not than why would we need authority to tell us what to do?

There are people who do good because they feel it's right and fair by hunman standards ...not to reap the rewards of heaven etc.

So I may not believe in hell, but I will not kill people even if there were no laws because killing is bad.

bad as in something that I wouldn't want for myself ( not to steal Kant's spotlight).

peace

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There are people who do good because they feel it's right and fair by hunman standards ...not to reap the rewards of heaven etc.

 

Peace,

 

I just wanted to say, I have a very religious, pious friend who likes to say, "Atheists are good for nothing." She's right -- we're good only because we want to be. We don't expect anything for our good works. :D

 

(It's a friendly joke between us, if you were wondering.)

 

 

Peace and good wishes. :D

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Allah always existed, don't ask me to explain it, because the only explanation I have is that Allah is not of this Universe. This universe is governed by Space and Time, Allah is not. Allah did not create Himself, for He was always there. Allah created Space and Time, and is not governed by ANY of His creations.

 

"He did not Beget not was He Begotten"

 

The Universe IS governed by Space and Time and therefore needs a beginning and an ending. Please do not bring 3d in here with his theories and logic, it makes my head hurt :D. Nothing in THIS universe created itself. Nor did the Universe. Nor could it have always existed.

 

Salamu Alaikum

3D's back :D

 

what you just said was practically "Allah always existed, don't ask me to explain it, because the only explanation I have doesn't prove that Allah always existed" very convincing :D

 

"Nor could it have always existed." - this is apparently a comfort thing as you can't prove why its impossible either.

 

oh yes, and I am a soft atheist/agnostic but forget the soft stuff and just call me an atheist - it sounds cooler :D

Edited by 3dshocker

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A human is naturally good, The soul or Rooh, is the esscence of the human, and the Rooh has the desire to please Allah and return to Him with His pleasure. But the Nafs, the ego, if it is not kept in check will overrun the Rooh.

 

Layman's terms : Humans are good but are prone to evil.

 

Salamu Alaikum

 

I do good because it makes me feel good, knowing that you are being rewarded is a big motivation. I am the lazy type, if I saw a person with a broken down car on the highway, I would only stop because I could use that reward later on.

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