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fluffysteve

The Quran Is Perfect - Or As Perfect As It Could Be?

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just more minor musing.

 

if muhamed (peace be upon him (i've seen many of you write that)) had not arived, and had instead come today. would his teachings be the same?

 

the first prophets came when the written word was a new thing, then muhamed came and it was possible to record in writing notions. but since god is infininate, perhaps he could have had more written? and yet, the technology at the time would be limited. it takes a certain amount of time, to copy by hand a text and distribute it to the masses - all of gods wisdom could perhaps take up the time of an infinite number of lifetimes and so, nothing could propergate as any holy text would be uncarriable, and unwritable.

 

so could the quran be accepted as god wisdom in condensed form?

 

if muhamed had come today, he would have the ability to write in words and pictures (should he wish) both still and moving and describe all knowledge describable. Todays technologies can store texts with more data, if not information, than could ever exists in the quran due to technological limitations.

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Hello fluffysteve,

 

Islam has mainly been carried down from generation to generation through an oral tradition. So I think the technological advancement wouldn't make any major difference in your hypothetical situation.

 

As for God Almighty 'adding more' to the religion, no we can't speculate anything like that. One reason is - God Almighty Himself says in the Qur'an that He has completed/perfected the religion. Also, according to the Islamic belief, Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) is the last Messenger of God, and therefore, there will be no further texual revelation. Whatever way Islam was intended to be preserved, has been preserved by the Qur'an and the Hadith (sayings/examples) of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him).

 

And God knows best.

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without wanting to cause offense, but surely god (asuming (i half hope) he exists) is awesome, infinitely intelligent, all that.

 

how could he possibly fit in all his wisdom in nothing but the most abridged, though presumedly useful -as it was gods will - way in a time when the word of god was needed.

 

i dont get muhamed - and how he has so much esteem still as i've never been exposed to the stories of the man. but i presume he must have been a great man. mayhap the greatest even for his name to have endured so much - so obvious what he said, what he wrote, was needed and valued greatly.. so the word of god in this case was greatly needed - despite mankinds limited ability to absorb all that god could have us know.

 

what i'm getting to:

is there any room in Islam for there to be a revision. Another prophet. now with an information age, we could potentially store and so digest knowledge from god should he wish to share it. previously humanity was not ready. it could only be guided bluntly.

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Salam,

 

U must first understand the concept of prophets. They bring the message of god to the people. The massage of Allah is in the Quran, it is not corrupted, and it is perfect. So there is no need for a new message.

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is there any room in Islam for there to be a revision. Another prophet. now with an information age, we could potentially store and so digest knowledge from god should he wish to share it. previously humanity was not ready. it could only be guided bluntly.

 

1.No Islam has been perfected according to the Qura'n

"This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islaam as your religion" [5:3]

2.What exactly do u think in Islam needs revision ?(hint:start a new topic..and one topic at a time for better replies)

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Thank you fluffysteve for your important questions,

 

 

if muhamed (peace be upon him (i've seen many of you write that)) had not arived, and had instead come today. would his teachings be the same?

Yes, exactly the same. Indeed, the morals, the ethics, the relationship between God and His servants, between humans, the forms of worship... do not change. In short, "Good" is the same regardless of the period, the time, the era...

 

 

the first prophets came when the written word was a new thing, then muhamed came and it was possible to record in writing notions. but since god is infininate, perhaps he could have had more written?

We, as human beings, are limited in every aspect. It is not possible for us to know everything. Allah (the Arabic word for God) says: "Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. " [Holy Qur'an 2:255]

 

 

if muhamed had come today, he would have the ability to write in words and pictures (should he wish) both still and moving and describe all knowledge describable. Todays technologies can store texts with more data, if not information, than could ever exists in the quran due to technological limitations.

It is important to have additional knowledge, but it is far more important to implement what we already know from God throughout His last and final Messenger Muhammad (Peace and blessings be upon him)

 

 

i dont get muhamed - and how he has so much esteem still as i've never been exposed to the stories of the man. but i presume he must have been a great man. mayhap the greatest even for his name to have endured so much - so obvious what he said, what he wrote, was needed and valued greatly.. so the word of god in this case was greatly needed - despite mankinds limited ability to absorb all that god could have us know.

OK. And I invite you to read more about the Prophet Muhammad (Peace and blessings be upon him); In this forum, you will find many articles and threads about him.

 

 

what i'm getting to:

is there any room in Islam for there to be a revision. Another prophet. now with an information age, we could potentially store and so digest knowledge from god should he wish to share it. previously humanity was not ready. it could only be guided bluntly.

Why should there be a revision, when Islam is a complete religion that encompasses all aspects of life? you can re-read the verse brother al-malabari quoted.

No, there is no need for a new Prophet, all we need is to stick to the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad (Peace and blessings be upon him) that are valid anywhere, anytime.

 

 

And Allah knows best.

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1.No Islam has been perfected according to the Qura'n

"This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islaam as your religion" [5:3]

[...]

Al-Malabari, what you've quoted is called a (www.)"http://en.wikipedia/wiki/Logical_fallacies"]logical fallacy[/url], specifically one called (www.)"http://en.wikipedia/wiki/Circular_reasoning"]circular reasoning[/url]. You have, in essence, just proven that the Q'uran is imperfect, by pointing out an error within it.

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Al-Malabari, what you've quoted is called a (www.)"http://en.wikipedia/wiki/Logical_fallacies"]logical fallacy[/url], specifically one called (www.)"http://en.wikipedia/wiki/Circular_reasoning"]circular reasoning[/url]. You have, in essence, just proven that the Q'uran is imperfect, by pointing out an error within it.

 

The fallacy is in your thinking. :D

 

Can you show us where there is circular reasoning? I see very clear statements, that are independent of each other, and result in the concluding remark. :D

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Al-Malabari, what you've quoted is called a (www.)"http://%27en.wikipedia/wiki/Logical_fallacies%27"]logical fallacy[/url], specifically one called (www.)"http://%27en.wikipedia/wiki/Circular_reasoning%27"]circular reasoning[/url]. You have, in essence, just proven that the Q'uran is imperfect, by pointing out an error within it.

Its NOT ..this is NOT the only proof -this is one among the many others .

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The fallacy is in your thinking. :D
How so? Back up your claim or retract it.

 

Can you show us where there is circular reasoning? I see very clear statements, that are independent of each other, and result in the concluding remark. :D
From Wikipedia: [ http:// en.wikipedia (contact admin if its a beneficial link) /wiki/Circular_reasoning #An_example ] (remove spaces for URL)

 

For example here is an attempt to prove that Paul is telling the truth:

 

* Suppose Paul does not lie when he speaks.

* Paul speaks.

* Therefore, Paul is speaking truth.

 

These statements are logical, but they do nothing to convince one of the truthfulness of the speaker. The problem is that in seeking to prove Paul's truthfulness, the speaker asks his audience to assume that Paul is telling the truth, so this actually proves "If Paul is not lying, then Paul is telling the truth." which is nothing more than a tautology. [ http:// en.wikipedia (contact admin if its a beneficial link) /wiki/ Tautology ] (remove spaces for URL)

 

In reading the Quran, from what I can gather we are being asked to assume the veracity of the Quran, when in fact veracity has yet to be proven. It is a logical fallacy, an error within the Quran.

 

Don't fault me for pointing it out -- I was taken by surprise seeing such a blatent fallacy being touted as proof of anything. If it wasn't me pointing it out, it would have been someone else.

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Its NOT ..this is NOT the only proof -this is one among the many others .

It's not proof of anything at all.

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:D

 

In myopinioin, Allah (swt) showed us only a small portion of his wisdom. Only enough for us to lead good lives here on Earth. There is no heason for Him to write down all his wisdom, and also, his wisdom is probably beyond our comprehension. To think that computers and our puny technology would be able to store His knowledge is arrogant in a lot of ways. For example, Allah (swt) has lived forever, and will live forever. No body created Him. How can a human mind comprehand something like this?

 

I watched a program on the TV the other day. A scientist pointed out that to store all the information form our cells, you would have to stack hard drives from Earth up to the third way though our galaxy. And that is just in one body.

 

And Allah (swt) created us all different, and not just us, but the whole Universe.

 

Allah (swt) brough us Islam to keep us on the straight path, not give us some secret knowledge.

 

:D

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It's not proof of anything at all.

First i have nothing against u personally...i apologise if my comments in the other made u feel unwelcome ...i had no such intentions

Secondly..What exactly is proof for you ...what kind of proof do u want ?

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First i have nothing against u personally...i apologise if my comments in the other made u feel unwelcome ...i had no such intentions

Secondly..What exactly is proof for you ...what kind of proof do u want ?

I thank you for your apology, and extend an apology to you -- I know that the way I word things is very direct, and sometimes the things I say are taken as attacks or insults when they're not meant to be. Sometimes I forget how my words may come across in a text-only format. I'm sorry for that, and I'll try to be less blunt in the future.

 

Please understand that I read the forum much more than I post -- I have two ears and two eyes, but only one mouth, and I try to use them in the same proportion. :D

 

As for the idea of 'proof', let me give you a short backstory. I have researched, addressed, and even been a believer in many religions. Please don't think I am being closed-minded when I ask hard questions or point out logical errors -- I am doing so because I have very high standards when it comes to god, as I think we all do (or should, in my opinion). But, what is proof to a believer is not necessarily proof to a nonbeliever -- what rings true to you may only cause me to question, and an excellent example is the verse you quoted which I showed was a logical fallacy to an outsider's eyes.

 

So, with perspective ever-present in my mind, I try to hold to my high standards, and accept only proof which is not so subject to the influences of perspective. I am here out of genuine curiosity, I assure you, but my definition of 'proof', after years of searching and learning, is that of physical, repeatable evidence. This, I have yet to see.

 

The past ten years of my life I can fit into a nutshell for you -- I searched for god both inside and out, and I could not find him. So, now I wait, and perhaps he will come to me in due time. Perhaps he will do it himself, or through one of his followers -- I do not know. But, I wait, and I try to ask the questions that could bring him closer, should he even exist.

 

So, do you have proof as I have defined it?

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Ah... the verse in question has been cleared up for me thanks to Taoist. :D

 

In the thread in Answering anti-Islamic Allegations > Apostasy in Islam, Taoist posted the verse in its entirety, which is about dietary laws and restrictions. Hence, I am assuming the quote al-malabari gave us was probably about dietary laws, and not necessarily the entirety of Islam and/or the Quran.

 

(Yusufali) 5:3 Forbidden to you (for food) are: dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and that on which hath been invoked the name of other than Allah; that which hath been killed by strangling, or by a violent blow, or by a headlong fall, or by being gored to death; that which hath been (partly) eaten by a wild animal; unless ye are able to slaughter it (in due form); that which is sacrificed on stone (altars); (forbidden) also is the division (of meat) by raffling with arrows: that is impiety. This day have those who reject faith given up all hope of your religion: yet fear them not but fear Me. This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. But if any is forced by hunger, with no inclination to transgression, Allah is indeed Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

 

Mystery solved! :D

 

Peace.

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Peace Nex

 

DO NOT attempt to make your own interpretations and meanings of the verses in the Quran. The interpretations of the meanings of Quran are one of the highest sciences of Islamic knowledge amongst the Islamic scholars. People like us have who are less knowledgeable in the meanings of the verses should not interpret the verses ourselves without any full understanding. Even amongst scholars there is some debate on these issues but there is a common conscensus of these meanings. We as muslims always refer to all sources before interpreting the meanings.

The verses in the Quran were revealed to Prophet Muhammad :D in different contexts and situations. We must be careful not to take these verses at face value. The compilation of the verses is a complicated subject which Islamic scholars have more knowledge on.

 

About the ayat 5:3 you stated which is in Surat Al-Maidah,

It is different parts. One part is telling us what food is restricted to us and what is permitted to muslims, under which circumstances. I'm not sure when this part of the verse was revealed, but I can tell you that it was not revealed at the same time as the other part of the verse.

 

The part in question is...

 

This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.

 

This part of the ayat was revealed to Prophet Muhammad :D at a different timing and context compared to the first part of the ayat. It was revealed at a time close to the Prophet's death, and he was addressing the muslims. Read these 2 links to understand when this part of the verse was revealed. It contains tafseer (explanation) of the part of verse which you questioned.

 

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.ahlussunnah(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/Tafseer/surah_anNasr_110.pdf"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.ahlussunnah(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/Tafseer/surah_anNasr_110.pdf[/url]

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.almizan(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/new/article13.asp"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.almizan(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/new/article13.asp[/url]

 

Nex...do not interpret something or listen to another person's interpretation as truth without knowledge...we can question what are the meanings of these verses...in the future please ask what the verse means 1st instead of coming up with your own conclusion...

 

To my muslim brothers and sisters, if I said something wrong or made a mistake in explaining, please correct me. Allah knows best.

 

Wassalam

Edited by freedslave

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