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emel

What Do You Think?

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:D

 

A woman left infertile after cancer treatment cannot use her frozen embryos to have a baby, the European Court of Human Rights has ruled.

 

Natallie Evans started IVF treatment with her then partner in 2001 but he withdrew consent for the embryos to be used after they split up. Ms Evans went to the Strasbourg court after exhausting the UK legal process.

 

What do you think of the ruling?

 

I have my opinions, and feelings about what the Islamic stance on this would be. However I think it would be interesting to hear different views on this topic, from muslims and non-muslims.

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Assalamu alaikum

 

:D

 

why did he withdraw consent? or was there no reason?

 

:D

 

He does not wish to father a baby with his former partner.

 

I'm rather split on this particular issue. I would be interested to read opinions of others, Insha'Allah.

 

Ma'assalama

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:D

 

as if having a cancer treatment wasnt enough. poor woman. its not like the guy has to redo the whole process. :D

 

:D

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:D

 

Same as sis strider here. I saw the woman on an interview today and she looked heartbroken... :D

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:D

 

well she should be able to mother a child. i don not think she should be the denied the pleasure of that... the father would not have to do anything...

 

:D

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salaam well bit of a tricky situation......she wants a child but theres no father? is tht the only way she can have a child? is the THINGY from her ex-partner?

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:D

 

I feel it is an extremly difficult situation, specifically because this lady has gone through the trauma of invasive and harsh cancer treatment, and surived it. Her one hope throughout this time was that she could have embryo's (fertilised eggs- by her ex-fiance) implanted into her when she recovered to have children through natural means. Both parties initially gave consent for the eggs to be fertilised, and consequently stored as embryo's.

 

Now the issue is that as the relationship ended, the ex-fiance withdrew his consent to the embryo's being implanted in the woman's uterus. This went through the European Court of Human Rights and the ex-fiance won the case.

 

I feel that although this woman has gone through immense turmoil and stress and deserves more than many people to be a loving parent to her own child, the potential father also reserves the right to stop the implantation due to the following reasons:

 

1) The resulting child will grow up being 100% certain that one of its parents did not want it to be born.

 

2) The father will play no role in the child's upbringing and the child will be aware that they have a father out there who does not want anything to do with it. This will add further psychological damage to the child.

 

So although this may seem like a harsh decision, and I do feel real empathy for the lady (May Allah protect us all from ever going through such suffering), I think the right decision was made, and the lady will hopefully be able to raise children through other means such as adoption or fostering.

Edited by emel

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Assalamu alaikum

 

Interesting.

 

Legally she had no rights, both parties are able to withdraw consent. I'm sure both were aware beforehand.

 

Also if she did go ahead, wouldn't the husband be responsible for maintenance for the child?

 

Did they have to be embryos? Why not just freeze the eggs? Then it would have only been upto her.

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Assalamu alaikum

 

Interesting.

 

Legally she had no rights, both parties are able to withdraw consent. I'm sure both were aware beforehand.

 

Also if she did go ahead, wouldn't the husband be responsible for maintenance for the child?

 

Did they have to be embryos? Why not just freeze the eggs? Then it would have only been upto her.

 

:D

 

That is something that she will probably live to regret if she doesn't win her appeal case. I think at the time she was confident of the stability of her relationship, however, in hindsight it would have been sensible to freeze some embryos as well as some eggs, just in case.

 

I think this will now be used as a benchmark for any other women in her situation who would perhaps be more cautious and store eggs and not embryos.

 

PS. Welcome back!

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Thanks.

 

Yeah, because if men have cancer treatment in that area they get to store their "cells" away and have them frozen.

 

Islamically when does life start? Embryo? Or when the baby is born? I was reading various articles on abortion and how a fatwa used the example of how janaza is not said for a still born child. Janaza is said when the child is witnessed alive after birth and being separated from the mother.

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Salaam,

 

that fact remains though that the father could do what so many others do and simply leave. The child would be in a situation no different to the the thousands born to single mothers each year. Further, to know your mother had gone through cancer and then years of court battles to have you would surely compensate in this instance.

 

To put it another way: If the woman was 2 months pregnant the father does not have the right to force her to have an abortion should he decide he no longer wants to go ahead with it.

 

In this situation: women cannot freeze their eggs, the success rate is so low because eggs are very complicated and dont freeze well. Fertilized embryos do store well. When a man gives his consent to have his sperm mixed with a woman's egg then he has done this in the knowledge that it is with the full intention of having a baby later on.

 

The man need have nothing to do with the baby, the child need not be stigmatized because it is in effectively the same situation as many other babies and the woman is now having to go through a second trauma of not ever being able to have children. To me this is very selfish of the man, if he accepts he would not have the right to force the woman to have an abortion, he must ( by extension) accept he cannot stop her having a baby in this sense.

 

Peace and Love,

 

DARLA

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Heart breaking for the woman, but it's the only decision that could be made.

 

The man couldn't have forced the woman to implant the embryos against her will, so it works both ways.

 

If it was just the womans decision, what if she had stored 10 embryos and wanted ten kids?

 

He would probably be liable to contribute to their care financially.

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With peace,

 

I see where you are coming from darla, and the same points you have raised were circulating in my head too. Although I did feel that he was being quite blunt in his rejection to even think longer about his decision, I still feel he has the right to withdraw consent prior to implantation.

 

I do have to disagree with the first point you brought up. I do not think that we can extrapolate this situation to fit in with the scenario of a 'normal' conception and subsequent development of a foetus, and the ex partner demanding an abortion. Infact it isn't really comparable. Even though at this stage the embryo is a proto human-being it is not the same as an embryo that has gone through the natural stages of implantation in vivo. It is still an independant organism and in its current state has no chance of developing further until implantation. Threfore to withdraw consent at this stage would not mean withdrawing life, as in its present state it cannot survive anyway. I am aware this may seem a subtle difference, but I believe it is nonetheless a very important one, and a difference that probably pushed the European Court of Human Rights to their decision.

 

Also, I wonder if the reverse had taken place i.e a man wanting to implant the embryos created by him and his ex partner, into his new partner, after say having undergone invasive treatment for testicular cancer. I doubt a case such as this would have even reached the courtroom.

 

It would also be interesting to see the Islamic scholarly position on this, as any ramblings I post are merely my views from an ethical standpoint.

 

Peace to you all.

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Assalamu Alaikum, I read the whole thread with interest, I would like to give my opinion in the light of Islam..............

 

There has to be a Man and a Woman married to each other having children, that is if Allah wills them to have children. If by chance there is some kind of problem in concieving, then they should consult experts in that field and go through treatments or whatever as long as it does'nt go against the commandments of Allah. InshaAllah after that if they can have children Alhamdulillah, if they still cannot, then they should accept the will of Allah with patience and concentrate on other aspects. They can always help orphans and the needy.

 

In the case which is being discussed, just because someone suffered from the trauma of Cancer treatment and what not, does not give them the right to use their emotional state to get what they want. Ethically a child should be born to a Married couple not an Engaged couple more so who have broken up.

 

If and When Allah wills for a soul to come into this World, it will, no one can stop it. If Allah does'nt will, then no one can do anything about it. Not even a leaf moves without the will of Allah.

 

I think people are taking too many things in their own hands, hence all the problems in the world, and I am not talking about Political problems here, but Ethical. Take care.

 

Wassalamu Alaikum, umAhmad.

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Assalamu Alaikum, I read the whole thread with interest, I would like to give my opinion in the light of Islam..............

 

There has to be a Man and a Woman married to each other having children, that is if Allah wills them to have children. If by chance there is some kind of problem in concieving, then they should consult experts in that field and go through treatments or whatever as long as it does'nt go against the commandments of Allah. InshaAllah after that if they can have children Alhamdulillah, if they still cannot, then they should accept the will of Allah with patience and concentrate on other aspects. They can always help orphans and the needy.

 

In the case which is being discussed, just because someone suffered from the trauma of Cancer treatment and what not, does not give them the right to use their emotional state to get what they want. Ethically a child should be born to a Married couple not an Engaged couple more so who have broken up.

 

If and When Allah wills for a soul to come into this World, it will, no one can stop it. If Allah does'nt will, then no one can do anything about it. Not even a leaf moves without the will of Allah.

 

I think people are taking too many things in their own hands, hence all the problems in the world, and I am not talking about Political problems here, but Ethical. Take care.

 

Wassalamu Alaikum, umAhmad.

 

:D

 

:D aunty for sharing an Islamic perspective on this. Just one thing, I don't think I understand what you meant in your last sentence. Could you please explain it to me, barakallahu feeki.

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Assalamu alaikum, friends,

 

It is interesting to me to see how muslims address this isssue, as I have very little knowledge of the Islamic positions regarding in-vitro fertilization, abortion and the boundary between "fetus" and "human" as it relates to the inherent right to be treated as the bearer of a human "soul".

 

I would add that at no point in the process of fertilization is life absent. Life is in the spermatazoa and in the ova as well. Life remains in the ova after penetration of its cell boundary by the spermatazoa. Life continues throughout the entire process of fertilization in which the DNA is incorporated into the nucleus of the ova.

 

Life continues as the fertilized ovum divides and forms itself into the hollow ball we know as a blastula, about the same size as the original ovum. But it is clearly still alive, even though it has not yet been implanted, and so has not had a chance to grow. This is the stage at which the fertilized ovum has been frozen in the in-vitro procedure, arresting further development.

 

One should keep in mind that most fertilized ova fail to implant, whether they are introduced through after in-vitro fertilization of remain within the womb.

 

I assume this woman has suffered some form of ovarian cancer and can no longer create her own ova. But this is not a barrier that would prevent her from undergoing the entire process of motherhood beyond this point. In the US, there are many, many "orphan" blastocysts produced throught the IVF process. They become orphans for a variety of reasons, perhaps because the parents have succeeded in creating a child, or perhaps because they have given up trying.

 

Many of these "orphans" are available for "adoption" and if this woman is truly interested in giving birth, the blastocysts created with her former partner are not the only option, nor are they the ethical option, in my opinion. Any argument that she should carry one of these particular blastocysts to term must account for the fact that in doing so, she condemns another to death.

 

As ever, Jesse

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(An edit would be appreciated if a mod would be so kind ... from "introduced through after in-vitro fertilization of remain" to "introduced through in-vitro fertilization or remain".)

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Ah what about surrogacy? Islamically?

 

I thought that since a woman can breastfeed another child, through which a foster relationship is formed, a woman could then feed another child through her womb. She would also in that case develop a foster relationship.

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:D

 

To taoist: the Islamic precpective is different than the one you have. In Islam, from the sayings of prophet Mohammed (pboh) said:

 

"In every one of you, all components of your creation are collected together in your mother's womb by forty days..."

[Narreted in Saheeh Muslim, nr. 2643 & Saheeh Al-Bukhari, nr. 3208]

 

"If forty-two nights have passed over the embryo, God sends an angel to it, who shapes it and creates its hearing, vision, skin, flesh and bones..."

[Narrated in Saheeh Muslim, nr. 2645]

 

Muslim dont believe that the embryo has any life before the first forty days.

 

I thought that since a woman can breastfeed another child, through which a foster relationship is formed, a woman could then feed another child through her womb. She would also in that case develop a foster relationship.

 

Its different. I think from an Islamic prespective its not allowed to carry another baby that isnt from your husband,as it would be classified as zinna.(correct me if I'm wrong and Allah knows best) Also, the carrier mother might feel attached to the child and allot of complication come out from what I've heard.

 

:D

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But with an embryo paternity is already established. Also no zina takes place such that would require 4 witnesses to apply the shariah punishment.

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This is a tough situation. Personally, I dont think I could deny her if she was my ex. Then again, we don't really know much about these people to be a judge about anything. All we do know is that she had cancer and now her evil ex-boyfriend is denying her a baby. It's sensational, but maybe not entirely accurate. :D

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:D

 

i didnt read the above post... no time (at school.. :D )

 

but if the woman is not meant to be a mother, then no matter what she tries she wont be a mother... Allah hu alim

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