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Adam Vs. Evolution

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I didn't see this b4 :D

No use, I can't master arabic better than native arabic schlars...maybe u have.

 

but they define adam that way. A muslims is some one who submits to God remember.. that's the meaning of the word "to submit" ...U don't need prophethood or th epillars of Islam to be a mulsim...You said it not me... Jews submit to God, Jews are muslim...It's a simple logic.

Got it, Just making sure that Cousins aren't included. :D

 

 

The meaning of a MUSLIM is one who submits to GOD. To "submit" to someone u must fallow their rules, the rules written in the Quran. The world "submit" does not mean faith without practice. One must believe in the last day, Heaven and Hell, and complete the 5 pillars of Islam. Ur reasoning is very naive.

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PropellerAds

Bismillah evolution denounces God Almighty.

see www. harunyahya Darwinism refuted. I dont need to invent the wheel again.

 

 

Also Darwins said about Turks that they are a bad race because Turks stop evolution. What he actually meant was Turks are muslim and dont change their ways as in dont become like americans or europeans. :D

 

 

anyways thanks for reading :D

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Peace, Abd mumin,

 

"Variations in the frequency of alleles" is not a denunciation of any god, thank you very much. Nor do I think you'll find the assorted christians, muslims, hindus and nontheists who work on expanding the theory of evolution will be especially pleased with such a raw misrepresentation based on the words of an "innovator" like Harun Yahya.

 

Where on earth did you get that misquote of Darwin's about the Turks? And how on earth can you logically connect such a statement to "descent with modification"? Spreading misinformation isn't what I usually think of when I think of muslims. And it's a far cry from the description of Islam as the "rational religion."

 

Tsk, and tsk.

 

:D

 

As ever, Jesse

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YusufAli,Shakir -are south Asians

Pickthall is an englishman who becmae a muslim ...none of them are "native arabic scholars" ..neither am i arab .

According to my reasearch M.H Shakir was an Egyptian borned in Cairo which makes him a Native Arabic.YusafAli was from Britain, I didn't even Bother with Pickthal. :D

The point is that when it comes to translations, Even people who know the language don't agree.I honestly don't think that I can't learn arabic better than these guys ANd I don't have time to learn a new language to prove my point.

Their supposed submission is no submission [at] all rather a large number of them have transgressed among themselves and others

I can almost imagine you in a trance while syaing this..lol ( no disrespect)

Neverthless, it doesn't prove a thing. Transgress? U can't judge.

Your definition states that a Muslim is someone who submits to god and THAT ALONE is what's enought though not all to be a muslim. How u know Adam didn't transgress, the way I see it, Had he not transgressed than He would still be heaven, we wouldn't exist probably etc...

There are no ways around this..Either Adam is not Muslim Or Jews are muslims too...According to your definition that is.

Peace :D

Edited by llogical

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According to my reasearch M.H Shakir was an Egyptian borned in Cairo which makes him a Native Arabic.YusafAli was from Britain, I didn't even Bother with Pickthal. :D

Pickthall is so obvious ..his full name is Marmaduke Pickthall..is he arab .

 

The point is that when it comes to translations, Even people who know the language don't agree.I honestly don't think that I can't learn arabic better than these guys ANd I don't have time to learn a new language to prove my point.

No muslim who has read the Qura'n will disagree that prophets and those who followed them in the past were muslim because it is explicit..the translator transted the way they did to make it clear to an english readers who are mainly non-muslim

Edited by al-malabari

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Hi

I can almost imagine you in a trance while syaing this..lol ( no disrespect)

You are simply wrong.....this comment was uncalled for !

 

Your definition states that a Muslim is someone who submits to god and THAT ALONE is what's enought though not all to be a muslim.

Thats the main condition to be a muslims...but there are something actions which come under (www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.gawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showtopic=23553&hl="]"Nullifications of Islam"[/url] which makes a person Non muslim..if they are done u are a non muslims ..Jews are guilty of many of them...according to muslims Jews are non-muslims

 

How u know Adam didn't transgress, the way I see it, Had he not transgressed than He would still be heaven, we wouldn't exist probably etc...

Whats ur point in these statemtns ? Had ur mother not given birth to u ..u would be asking these questions ,...

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There are no ways around this..Either Adam is not Muslim Or Jews are muslims too...According to your definition that is.

U have already decided what u want to believe ..now u are trying to prove it ...this is not the right way to go about doing things ...ask as what we believe and how we believe and why we believe..not what u think we believe or what u would like us to believe or

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Pickthall is so obvious ..his full name is Marmaduke Pickthall..is he arab .

If it's o obvious than why even ask? my point was that Arab or Aryan, these guys are MUslims...Muslims who translated Quran...Whose translations are widely respected. But since u brought this up again...let me point out that U were wrong about the other two being asians and Non Arabic..If you are not sure about something, than why say it with such confidance.

Thats the main condition to be a muslims...but there are something actions which come under "Nullifications of Islam" which makes a person Non muslim..if they are done u are a non muslims ..Jews are guilty of many of them...according to muslims Jews are non-muslims

"Nullification has no significance in this debate'', you want to jump ship than try another one.

Whats ur point in these statemtns ? Had ur mother not given birth to u ..u would be asking these questions

 

True...just like if you wren't brainwashed, you would see my point. Let me break it down

Adam wasn't sent to earth until he disobeyed God, he could have followed God's commands and not get sent to earth and start this whole process. I had no say in my own birth.

U have already decided what u want to believe ..now u are trying to prove it ...this is not the right way to go about doing things ...ask as what we believe and how we believe and why we believe..not what u think we believe or what u would like us to believe or

I never assumed nothing, This thread was about Adam and creation.

You made the point that he was Muslim because he submitted to God. You said that Kalima and teh five pillars do not matter here since Submittance is all it takes.Adam has nothing to do with Islam and can't have anything to do with Islam because Islam Doesn't exist yet but h eis still muslim because he submitted.

If Submittance is all that it takes to be a muslim than Jews are muslims too since they submit. It doesn't matter if You think they transgress or If they Nullify whatever, they are muslims because they submit.

Maybe we need a third opinion on this....

Edited by llogical

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If it's o obvious than why even ask? my point was that Arab or Aryan, these guys are MUslims...Muslims who translated Quran...Whose translations are widely respected. But since u brought this up again...let me point out that U were wrong about the other two being asians and Non Arabic..If you are not sure about something, than why say it with such confidance.

1. I accept that I was wrong the first time .

2.It doesnt matter what these translators origin were

3.I have repeatedly shown u the fact that they translated the world "Muslim" (which the prophets are called to as "those" who submit to god" ....)

4.the translators were not wrong in what they translated ..i just made it more precise and closer to the original

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"Nullification has no significance in this debate'', you want to jump ship than try another one

It does ..I made a mistake of not elaborating on what i mean by submission..anyone who nullifies any of them with knowledge is not a muslim.

It can be compared to a scholarship..to get a scholarship u need a minimum grade and to keep ur scholarship u need to not let ur grade go below minium

 

True...just like if you wren't brainwashed,

I am starting to hate the way u attack me than my comments ..i have warned u before ..U seem to know whats in my heart and what i do regularly and then u comment on it in a sarcastic way ..tell me why are u hear ..do u have any wish to learn about Islam or understand Islam at all ?

Let me break it down

Adam wasn't sent to earth until he disobeyed God, he could have followed God's commands and not get sent to earth and start this whole process. I had no say in my own birth.

Qura'n is very clera on this ..Adam and his children were decreed to live on earth as a test ..so you cannot question or change what has already happend .. u are here on earth and what are u going to do about it ?Pretend that u were not born ?

 

I never assumed nothing, This thread was about Adam and creation.

You made the point that he was Muslim because he submitted to God. You said that Kalima and teh five pillars do not matter here since Submittance is all it takes

Look for the first reply in this post

.Adam has nothing to do with Islam and can't have anything to do with Islam because Islam Doesn't exist yet but h eis still muslim because he submitted.

Adam had everything to do with Islam .Islam is the religion of all the prophets .U can believe what u like but that doesnt change what we believe at all

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U have already decided what u want to believe ..now u are trying to prove it ...this is not the right way to go about doing things ...
Salam,

 

Forgive me, al malabari, but I couldn't let the irony in the above go unremarked. Sorry about that. Please carry on as if I never mentioned it.

 

__________

 

There are some truly stupendous evidences that all humans, indeed all life on earth, falls on a single multibranching phylogenetic tree. After asking for comments in the thread linked in my sig, I've come to understand that while evolution may be a threat to any unique intellectual primacy of religious scholars unversed in science, it is not really a threat to the spiritual principles of Islam.

 

The Qur'an does not speak of chromosomes or radionuclides, as much as it might be wished by those who insist on attempting to scoop water with a knife.

 

To be consistent, I believe muslims should accept that the Adam said to be created in the Qur'an is a spiritual Adam whose creation is represented consistently in spiritual terms. Contradictions with evolution do not enter the text of any aya of the Qur'an I've seen until adherents attempt to treat it as a science text.

 

As ever, Jesse

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I am starting to hate the way u attack me than my comments ..i have warned u before ..U seem to know whats in my heart and what i do regularly and then u comment on it in a sarcastic way ..tell me why are u hear ..do u have any wish to learn about Islam or understand Islam at all ?

So I was being a Jerk...But don;t take it personal. If you read your comments first, you'll see why.

If you take a sarcastic tone, than I'm sure to follow. I was borned muslim so I may know more about Islam than u presume.

Qura'n is very clera on this ..Adam and his children were decreed to live on earth as a test

So are you saying that Adam never disobeyed God?? My point was that If he had just followed

God, he wouldn't have to take this test, We wouldn't have to take this test.

Adam had everything to do with Islam

Seriously think about it... how can if If Islam comes after Adam.

It's like saying that I am like my great great grandson.

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So are you saying that Adam never disobeyed God?? My point was that If he had just followed

God, he wouldn't have to take this test, We wouldn't have to take this test.

No iam not Adam disobeyed ..it was God's decree that he disobeyed him ...we are destined to live on earth ..there is nothing we can do about it .

 

 

Seriously think about it... how can if If Islam comes after Adam.

It's like saying that I am like my great great grandson.

[##][/##]

thats why i siad Islam is the religion of All the prophets ..first to the last ..problem solved

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Wassalam Jesse

First ..i personally dont like or understand biology too much,its too confusing for me ..so i dont read much of this evolution stuff or harunyahya stuff which is supposed to refute it .

 

Time will tell the truth about the theory of evolution ...its not a threat to Islam..everyweek i hear or see atleast 2 non-muslims (just approx. the past few weeks) entering Islam..is it like nobody has heard about the theory of evolution u hold so dear to ur heart ?

 

Deep down everybody acknowledges a creator....imagine u were in a plane that was going to crash into the sea or similar situations ...every hardcore athiest will see those who belive in god turning to him which is the only source of hope in that situation..he simply out of desperation will turn to the Almighty ..this is NATURAL for the average-joe who dont spend their hours reading on theory of evolution or philosophy to call out to god ...sorry u simply cant change that no matter how much u use the media,money or material to tell him that u are here by accident and ur grandfather was a monkey whose grandfather was a rat and so on

 

how easy do u find it to believe that hitler and their like are not going to pay for their crimes?

...I find it hard ..there are many things in the world which testify to the existence of a creator and theory of evolution is not going to change that.

 

All the creation on earth is a mere accident ..I find that hard to digest ...is it just me ..No its not ..its the majority of the mankind in every era .

 

and Finally Qura'n is not a text of science it has been explained by the prophet ..some of what it mentioned regarding birth and other stuff agrees with reality...ofcourse those who you use english translations can twist and turn the verses and say otherwise...but some are as clear as the moon on a fullmoon day and there is nothing u can do about it .Treating it like a science text is a mistake ..its full of parables for those who think and are sicnere .Its a book of guidance and signs .

 

We believe Adam to be a real man this is the mainstream Islamic belief .you may say iam blind following and illogical thats ur choice ...i find it both easier and logical than to believe it that my great grand dad was a monkey who dad was an ant etc or iam here on this earth by a big accident .

 

Science is not anything I or anybody should submit themselves to.. In arabic there is a word called "taghoot" ..its means anything that people submit to fully other than the creator ... Ur "taghoot" seems to be science ..u seem to worship it and submit to its laws and methodology as if they are perfect when in reality they are flawed and imperfect.

 

Peace

Edited by al-malabari

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No iam not Adam disobeyed ..it was God's decree that he disobeyed him.

I didn't understand...what are you saying?

thats why i siad Islam is the religion of All the prophets ..first to the last ..problem solved

Christianity was the religion of all prophets...Problem solved.

This makes just as much sense.

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Thank you for your thoughts, al malabari, wa alaikum assalam,

 

I can't say I'm especially fond of biology myself. But I am interested in truth. Most of my interest in the theory of evolution has been piqued by debate with fundamentalist christians with little understanding of science and little commitment to truth. Certainly, I don't miss the irony of Adnan Oktar (Harun Yahya) presentations interlacing the Qur'an with the lies of these folks. We've got an expression, "go to bed with dogs, get up with fleas." These priests go one better by putting their congregation to bed in the kennel and telling them their fleas are god's will.

 

There's a consistent pattern in most of these anti-biology, anti-science, anti-knowledge preachers. They lie, and they do so in the name of their religious faiths. And as often as their lies are debunked, they move on to a new audience and repeat the same old lies again. They rely on their ability to prey on the weak, and their ability to encourage an ignorance which is an assault on humanity itself. Their teachings are a corruption of both science and faith at the same time. It's only natural that I should be offended, and wish for others to see through these lies.

 

The average Joe is perfectly capable of coming to a fair judgment when presented with evidence. But, as you say, they don't spend hours reading philosophy or science. They have jobs and families and a bit of time on the weekend to relax and tend to the spiritual needs that have been slighted in the workaday world. The average Joe is not to blame because his preacher needs a full collection plate and finds it easier to fill that plate by manufacturing enemies.

 

There is a difference between submitting to god and submitting to the words of false teachers, though they may tell you their words come from god. Nor do I see science as anything more than the best method we have of finding out about the world around us. It has little to do with my spiritual faith. At most it is useful for telling me what things are not spiritual about my world.

 

The sun shines because hydrogen atoms are busily fusing into helium. Lightning is a flow of electrons equalizing charges between the atmosphere and the ground. Earthquakes result from the movement of tectonic plates. And every human on the planet, and all of their parents and grandparents and great^500,000-grandparents, is the result of a continuing process of creation described by the theory of evolution.

 

Each of these processes is governed by physical laws, not by chance, my friend. Science is your friend in discovering this truth. Describing these laws is a job for scientists, but creating these laws is beyond their ken. "Nameless indeed is the source of creation, but things have a mother and she has a name." Deep down, I acknowledge I had parents, and I know their names. But universe creators are beyond my ability to name.

 

As ever, Jesse

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She's better known as (www.)"http://en.wikipedia/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve"]mitochondrial eve[/url].

 

Best estimates at present are that she lived around 150,000 years ago, and that her counterpart, y-chromosomal adam, lived about 90,000 years ago.

Greetings Taoist,

 

Thanks for your thoughtful response. I'm aware of the mitochondrial DNA story, as well as the corresponding Y chromosome story for males. It is true that the number of women in each generation of the matrilineal tree must become smaller as you go to earlier generations (if some women have more than one daughter); by induction, that number must eventually go to one. But it isn't clear that one must logically arrive at that generation before one arrives at a speciation boundary. That is, it might have been that the first humans had an assortment of mitochondrial DNA's inherited from their ancestors from a precursor species. In fact, it turns out that we humans all have a single human ancestor for our mitochondrial DNA, but that was not a logical inevitability. I think it's a complex function of population bottlenecks, selective advantages of mitochondrial variants, etc.

 

I don't think we're at odds about anything important. I was only trying to get away from the idea that the "mitochondrial Eve" had no female counterparts in her generation, and maybe you weren't really saying that to begin with.

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I didn't understand...what are you saying?

I mean Adam sinned because that was God's will ..u cannot question decree because there is nothing u can do about it

Christianity was the religion of all prophets...Problem solved.

This makes just as much sense.

Oh ...tell me which of the prophes worshipped a triune god ...NONE

which of the accepted "holy spirit" into his heart ...NONE

..i have on this forum repeatedly challenged quite knowledgable christian(s) to prove me otherwise..he hasnt been able to ..he simply cant because none of the prophets were polytheists and that is even clear in the OT.

 

Man Open ur eyes ..understand Islam's creed...then u will see the difference between the racist and polytheists religions in this world and Islam

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I mean Adam sinned because that was God's will ..u cannot question decree because there is nothing u can do about it

U mean it wasn't adam's will but God's will?

Here's why that makes no sense at all.

Satan seduced Adam not God.

Adam had free will..If God willed for Adam to sin than Adam's will is not free.

Furthermore this would prove that God maliciuosly doomed Adam and mankind.

This means that we are different from Adam because we DO have free will, it's a proven factor.

Oh ...tell me which of the prophes worshipped a triune god ...NONE

which of the accepted "holy spirit" into his heart ...NONE

..i have on this forum repeatedly challenged quite knowledgable christian(s) to prove me otherwise..he hasnt been able to ..he simply cant because none of the prophets were polytheists and that is even clear in the OT.

I don't know who the prophets worshipped.

Even if they worshipped one God, it still doesn't make them muslim because tons of others

Faiths worship One God not just muslims.

Based on what factor do u conclude that the prophets were muslim?

Monotheism can't be it, Submittance can't be it ...what else u got?

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I don't know who the prophets worshipped.

Only 2 scriptures talk about the prophets ..they both talk how the prophets sent by the the creator worshipped him alone and called to it alone..dont feign ignorance ..i challenge u to prove otherwise..U simply cant

 

Even if they worshipped one God, it still doesn't make them muslim because tons of othersFaiths worship One God not just muslims.

Based on what factor do u conclude that the prophets were muslim?

Monotheism can't be it, Submittance can't be it ...what else u got?

I based my conclusion on the Qura'n ...Monotheism is "IT" Submittance is "IT" ...that is the core of "IT" .The Qura'n is so clear on this that they were muslims ..why argue with me when u have simply nothing to back it up .

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U mean it wasn't adam's will but God's will?

NO i dint mean that ..Adam obeyed Satan on his on free-will hence he is responsible for his sin .But Allah forgave him for it after his sincere repentance ..which means hes no longer guilty of his sin nor can u attribute the sin to Adam because Allah the Most merciful has forgiven him .What iam saying is that u cannot say "if such and such had not been done then we would be in heaven"

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Greetings Taoist,

 

<snip>

 

But it isn't clear that one must logically arrive at that generation before one arrives at a speciation boundary.

 

<snip>

Greetings in return, clarence,

 

I would say it is logically clear on the y-chromosomal line (part of the nuclear genome) and logically unclear on the mitochondrial line (not part of the nuclear genome). The logic of mother^k (2006) requires only a finite endpoint, however, as the sequence is only non-increasing rather than strictly decreasing. The question of species boundaries does not really arise until we consider the consequences of a finiite limit greater than one, at which point we need to bring in other facts from biology to end the induction.

 

I don't think we're at odds about anything important. I was only trying to get away from the idea that the "mitochondrial Eve" had no female counterparts in her generation, and maybe you weren't really saying that to begin with.
I don't think we're at odds about anything at all, myself. At most, you've presented additional information.

 

Note how I've been careful to specify "2006". If mitochondrial eve's female counterparts were to be considered as part of a new set, mothers (mtEve generation), we could construct a new sequence that would end with a mtEve (mtEve generation), leading to a whole new metasequence ...

 

mtEve (2006) ~ mtEve (mtEve (2006)) ~ mtEve (mtEve (mtEve (2006)) ...

 

... which must cross species boundaries by necessity. Of course, species boundaries are relative as well. What is a species boundary to us, here in 2006, is not a species boundary to those living at that species boundary. It's possible to consider an average variation per generation, call it a "wallace," perhaps, (since the darwin unit is taken).

 

A species boundary measured in wallaces is then a calculable number of generations strictly greater than one and probably on the order of tens of thousands of generations relative to any fixed generation. So as we move back through the generations, the species boundary moves with us, and remains always beyond our reach.

 

Contemplating this movement of ranges is a remarkably Taoist exercise.

 

:D

 

As ever, Jesse

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:D

 

Forgive my simpleness but wasn't we created for the purpose of worshipping Allah?

Wasn't we mean't to sin so that we can ask Allah to forgive us?

Isn't there an haddith that talks about if human was perfect then Allah would destroy us and create another that wasn't perfect to repent to him?

I'm sorry but i don't have that hadith on hand May Allah forgive me if i have said it wrong.

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Only 2 scriptures talk about the prophets ..they both talk how the prophets sent by the the creator worshipped him alone and called to it alone..dont feign ignorance ..i challenge u to prove otherwise..U simply cant

Please Don't put words in my mouth, I never said prophets were polytheists...I reject your useless

challenge to prove so or otherwise. My point was.. and is... that the prophets were not muslims.

Don't try to side track the conversation.

I based my conclusion on the Qura'n ...Monotheism is "IT" Submittance is "IT" ...that is the core of "IT" .The Qura'n is so clear on this that they were muslims ..why argue with me when u have simply nothing to back it up .

Ok then Jews are muslims. Because Jews both do "ITs".

NO i dint mean that ..Adam obeyed Satan on his on free-will hence he is responsible for his sin .But Allah forgave him for it after his sincere repentance ..which means hes no longer guilty of his sin nor can u attribute the sin to Adam because Allah the Most merciful has forgiven him .What iam saying is that u cannot say "if such and such had not been done then we would be in heaven"

Flip...Flop.

First u say it was God'd will and now u say it was Adam's Will.

Is this your final answer?

And please go read Quran to understand how it explains creation b4 arguing.

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My point was.. and is... that the prophets were not muslims.

According to muslims and Islam ur point is void ..i have shown u proof from the Qura'n many times..the blind never see and the deaf cannot hear .

 

Ok then Jews are muslims. Because Jews both do "ITs".

How can u say Jews submit when the reject messengers ..i have shown u the 10 conditions to which a person submits when he submits to Islam ..u chose to ignore it .

First u say it was God'd will and now u say it was Adam's Will.

Is this your final answer?

And please go read Quran to understand how it explains creation b4 arguing.

Its both...Humans dont will anything except the Allah knows he is going to ..hes All knowing and independent of time .

"But you cannot will, unless Allah wills." (Qur'an76, 30)

 

No,its not fatalism ....humans have apparent free will ..if i type on my keyboard and press post ..its going to come up on the board ..if u dont work u are not going to get money ....so its obvious ..that its not fatalism

Islam is between free will and fatalism

and finally take ur own advice..if u did ...such questions wouldnt come up

Edited by al-malabari

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