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llogical

Adam Vs. Evolution

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According to muslims and Islam ur point is void ..i have shown u proof from the Qura'n many times..the blind never see and the deaf cannot hear .

According to Logic, your point is void. The handicap works both ways.

How can u say Jews submit when the reject messengers ..i have shown u the 10 conditions to which a person submits when he submits to Islam ..u chose to ignore it .

If the messengers are part of the 10 conditions than how could Adam follow them if they don't exist.

Its both...Humans dont will anything except the Allah knows he is going to ..hes All knowing and independent of time .

"But you cannot will, unless Allah wills." (Qur'an76, 30)

No,its not fatalism ....humans have apparent free will ..if i type on my keyboard and press post ..its going to come up on the board

Islam is between free will and fatalism

and finally take ur own advice..if u did ...such questions wouldnt come up

I guess we have no real free will than.

There is no such thing as in between will, If Allah's will is stronger than our's than we have no free will. Also than this opens a new can of worms, why am I not surprised.

It's appearantly Allah's will that I disobey him.

It's Allah's will that people steal whay cut their hands?

It's Allah's will that people are criminals, why punish them?

It's Allah will that people are jews and christians and polythiests, Why do muslims try to

preach Islam and go against Allah's will??

Not sure which advice of mines I should follow? :D

Edited by llogical

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PropellerAds

My point is not invalid at all ..My basis is the Qura'n..Qura'n calls them and the people who obeyed them muslim ..end of story

 

If the messengers are part of the 10 conditions than how could Adam follow them if they don't exist.

Adam met all the conditions he was required by Allah to .

 

I guess we have no real free will than.

Also.... it's appearantly Allah's will that I disobey him.

It's Allah's will that people steal whay cut their hands?

It's Allah's will that people are criminals, why punish them?

It's Allah will that people are jews and christians and polythiests, Why do muslims try to

preach Islam and go against Allah's will??

Not sure which advice of mines I should follow?

 

There is no such thing as in between will, If Allah's will is stronger than our's than we have no free will. Also than this opens a new can of worms, why am I not surprised.

There is no can of worms..What i say can be defended from any of the attacks u are going to make .

 

U have no free will independent of Allah's will

6. We believe in God's Divine Will - We believe that Allah knows everything, that he is the Creator, and that Allah's Will overcomes the will of humanity. Muslims believe that Allah has given humanity the ability and will to make choices in our lives. He knows the choices humanity will make before we have made them and nothing in Allah's Kingdom happens without His allowing it to take place.

ALL ur arguments are just recycled arguments of the disbelievers of old..i can only marvel at the accuracy of Qura'n in refuting them

 

And when it is said to them: "Spend of that with which Allâh has provided you," those who disbelieve say to those who believe: "Shall we feed those whom, if Allâh willed, He (Himself) would have fed? You are only in a plain error."[36:47]

 

And those who join others in worship with Allâh say: "If Allâh had so willed, neither we nor our fathers would have worshipped aught but Him, nor would we have forbidden anything without (Command from) Him." So did those before them(ie.gave similar excuses ). Then! Are the Messengers charged with anything but to convey clearly the Message?[16:35]

 

These are invalid excuses .... if u really believe what u said above ..dont type, if Allah wills the post is going to be there ,it will automagically appear with out u moving a single finger

Edited by al-malabari

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Dear Mr. llogical..

why are we talking about this any way ?

Do u have any intrest to learn about Islam at all or are u simply here to debate with me simply for the sake of it

I ask because i am going to be busy from tuesda onwards .

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My point is not invalid at all ..My basis is the Qura'n..Qura'n calls them and the people who obeyed them muslim ..end of story

Story doesn't end at Quran..not for every one. But I get ur angle.

Qurans says so and that's good enought for you.Had u said that b4, I wouldn't

ask anything else.

These are invalid excuses .... if u really believe what u said above ..dont type, if Allah wills the post is going to be there ,it will automagically appear with out u moving a single finger

I know you are jokng bcaz this argument goes againt what u say.

Unless you think will is some sort of telekenetic powers.

No one can move things on will, not average humans.

That has nothing to do with my will.

It's like I am about to submit this post and that' s my will, god can't stop me from this

only Mods can.

Dear Mr. llogical..

why are we talking about this any way ?

Do u have any intrest to learn about Islam at all or are u simply here to debate with me simply for the sake of it

I ask because i am going to be busy from tuesday onwards

You right, freewill isn't directly related at the topic.

Why I am here i suseless to answer.

I don;t intend to tie up ur time, reply when you can spare one.

Peace :D

Edited by llogical

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god can't stop me from this only Mods can.

Hi

 

"They made not a just estimate of Allah such as is due to Him. [39:67]

Really..tell me what stops ur computer from freezing just before u click ..what stops ur body from paralysing at that instant ...... ..can u live a minute without the oxygen Allah has provided u ...what happens if ur room suddenly catches fire ,there are a million other throught which the post u type wont appear on the board .The point is If Allah has intended that you dont post then u will never post.

"They made not a just estimate of Allah such as is due to Him. [39:67]

On the authority of Abu Abbas Abdullah the son of Abbas (may Allah be pleased with them both), who said:

 

If you ask, ask of Allah; if you seek help, seek help of Allah. Know that if the Nation were to gather together to benefit you with anything, it would benefit you only with something that Allah had already prescribed for you, and that if they gather together to harm you with anything, they would harm you only with something Allah had already prescribed for you.

Let me tell you the benefits of believing in pre decree ...the main benefit is that you will never ever loose hope in Allah because only what Allah has decreed will happen to u and nothing more and we also believe that no soul is tested with what it cannot handle and that any harm u incur are expation for ur sins which gives u the peace of mind

Edited by al-malabari

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Hi

 

"They made not a just estimate of Allah such as is due to Him. [39:67]

Really..tell me what stops ur computer from freezing just before u click ..what stops ur body from paralysing at that instant ...... ..can u live a minute without the oxygen Allah has provided u ...what happens if ur room suddenly catches fire ,there are a million other throught which the post u type wont appear on the board .The point is If Allah has intended that you dont post then u will never post.

The important thing is what happens, not what could've, would've or should've happen.

there is no single possibility of occurance.

We can go on forever,I carried out my will as I intended to thus my will is free.

If u still argue that iT was Allah's will , then again below is true:

People are gay because of his will.

There is pain and suffering due to Allah's will.

young kids starve to death because of his will.

The list is endless.( due to Allah's will)

Let me tell you the benefits of believing in pre decree ...the main benefit is that you will never ever loose hope in Allah because only what Allah has decreed will happen to u and nothing more and we also believe that no soul is tested with what it cannot handle and that any harm u incur are expation for ur sins which gives u the peace of mind

If that was true, I wouldn't have given up on it.

Edited by llogical

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People are gay because of his will.

There is pain and suffering due to Allah's will.

young kids starve to death because of his will.

The list is endless.( due to Allah's will)

Its true thats the only way it can be and the only thing which makes sense when u look at the bigger picture

If u are intrested u can read

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=49004&dgn=4"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=q...&QR=49004&dgn=4[/url]

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Its true thats the only way it can be and the only thing which makes sense when u look at the bigger picture

If u are intrested u can read

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=49004&dgn=4"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=q...&QR=49004&dgn=4[/url]

I just did and there are too many arabic references. I didn't get it the exact line of thoughts how this is possible. But thx any way.

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The other laws are compartively minor and change according to the conditions and time of the people.

 

 

that sounds like you wanna interpret stuff and make your own decisions. not a good idea, cos that means you dont need to kill people for apostasy, no need to have veiled women, all music is no longer haraam, taking over non muslim lands is not allowed, no need to support terrorists or call people k*ffar.

 

it means you may have to be measured on your own moral compass. a scary thought indeed.

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that sounds like you wanna interpret stuff and make your own decisions. not a good idea, cos that means you dont need to kill people for apostasy, no need to have veiled women, all music is no longer haraam, taking over non muslim lands is not allowed, no need to support terrorists or call people k*ffar.

it means you may have to be measured on your own moral compass. a scary thought indeed.

 

Hi

I dont fix the laws Allah does..what ever was Islam at the time of the prophet is Islam today ..no change !

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If the world of human behavior is everchanging than it's only Logical that laws pertaining to this change. Even Islamic laws change ..when and how..that's a brainer.

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hmmmmmmm

 

Adam :D was a muslim. He submitted to one God and was therefore a muslim. If today, a buddhist submitted to one God, in that act, he would be a muslim according to the precepts of Islam whether he acknowledged it or not. A carrot can call itself a banana all it wants.....it's still a carrot.

 

Children Let's see. God creates man. God creates woman. (neither therefore have parents). First man and woman have initially two boys.

Are you suggesting that God then forgot how to create? :D . What's to stop God creating mates for these children? They don't need to be specifically mentioned to stop one making the logical seps (If the children are hardly mentioned in the Quran, why should the partners be?). And then mates for those children? Until they no longer run the risk of begetting 7-headed offspring (at which point they can intermarry?).

 

I have discussed this very point with imams in local Masjids.

 

Incest is NOT allowed in Islam, nor ever has been, regardless of the saqim or da'if hadiths people decide to mention (even if the hadith is sahih, it doesn't tell us anything. Merely saying something existed doesn't imply it was sanctioned by God. After all, Luts people existed).

Brothers and sisters are not allowed to have sex, regardless of when they lived. :D Unlike eating pork for instance, incest is never allowed no matter what circumstances you're in (ie there are never any 'special circumstances' that allow incest)

Allah knows best

 

The point re: Quran has already been answered (and in other posts)

 

:D

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hmmmmmmm

 

Adam :D was a muslim. He submitted to one God and was therefore a muslim. If today, a buddhist submitted to one God, in that act, he would be a muslim according to the precepts of Islam whether he acknowledged it or not. A carrot can call itself a banana all it wants.....it's still a carrot.

 

U didn't give a reason..

Can some one be "muslim" without following the 5 pillars? No...mere submittance isn't enough.A muslim is a follower of Islam..Islam has Kalima nd 5 pillars

Now my question was "how can someone be muslim if the Kalima nd the pillars do not exist yet"...No one this thread was able to answer yet everyone agreed that older prophets were muslims.... It's disappointing to me bcaz people can have strong belief about something...That's good but not knowing the reason...In my opinion is blind faith.

Neverthless... I did find an acceptable answer from elsewhere.

All prophets and their followers were muslim bcaz they followed what God and the prophet in Their time asked them to do..So b4 Prophet Muhammad SW...people who followed Musa AS (for example) were muslims...but once Prophet muhammad came with Quran...His teachings replaced all previous rules and people who rejected his message were no longer following Islam..

 

Incest is NOT allowed in Islam, nor ever has been, regardless of the saqim or da'if hadiths people decide to mention (even if the hadith is sahih, it doesn't tell us anything. Merely saying something existed doesn't imply it was sanctioned by God. After all, Luts people existed).

Brothers and sisters are not allowed to have sex, regardless of when they lived. :D Unlike eating pork for instance, incest is never allowed no matter what circumstances you're in (ie there are never any 'special circumstances' that allow incest)

 

That's true as of now but wasn't always true...How can the children of Adam had otherwise reproduced??? So it's llogical to say than Incest was Allowed at some point of time until the teachings changed. It makes sense in that context but I am afraid it raises other concerns..like How can the rules outlined by a perfect being change?..As an omniscient being He must have known that certain rules will not suffice..than why not get them right the first time? Maybe I expect too much from God...but I can't blame myself bcaz since he is omnipotent, there is no such as expecting too much ..for God can satisfy every curiosity ...curiosity that he himself planted in his creation.

:D

Peace

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That's true as of now but wasn't always true...How can the children of Adam had otherwise reproduced??? So it's llogical to say than Incest was Allowed at some point of time until the teachings changed. It makes sense in that context but I am afraid it raises other concerns..like How can the rules outlined by a perfect being change?..As an omniscient being He must have known that certain rules will not suffice..than why not get them right the first time? Maybe I expect too much from God...but I can't blame myself bcaz since he is omnipotent, there is no such as expecting too much ..for God can satisfy every curiosity ...curiosity that he himself planted in his creation.

:D

Peace

Sorry Illogical but it seems you didn't read my post fully. I answered that here:

" Let's see. God creates man. God creates woman. (neither therefore have parents). First man and woman have initially two boys.

Are you suggesting that God then forgot how to create? :D . What's to stop God creating mates for these children? They don't need to be specifically mentioned to stop one making the logical seps (If the children are hardly mentioned in the Quran, why should the partners be?). And then mates for those children? Until they no longer run the risk of begetting 7-headed offspring (at which point they can intermarry?)."

 

So incest was never allowed and was not necessary.

 

Re: Adam not being muslim...au contrair mon cherie :D

I'm still not sure why you have a problem with this, but the basics (fundamentals) of Islam were followed by Adam. The most fundamental thing you need to be a muslim is to believe in one God and in Prophet Muhammed saw. But as Muhammed wasn't present at this time, people who believed in 1 God prior to this were also muslims.

 

Hope this answers your question (you're right though, probably a better explanation elsewhere :D )

 

Peace

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So if I believe in one God I am automatically a Muslim, so Christians and Jews are Muslims. What about if I believe in one god but he's a different god from yours? This is madness!

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Sorry Illogical but it seems you didn't read my post fully. I answered that here:

" Let's see. God creates man. God creates woman. (neither therefore have parents). First man and woman have initially two boys.

Are you suggesting that God then forgot how to create? :D . What's to stop God creating mates for these children? They don't need to be specifically mentioned to stop one making the logical seps (If the children are hardly mentioned in the Quran, why should the partners be?). And then mates for those children? Until they no longer run the risk of begetting 7-headed offspring (at which point they can intermarry?)."

 

:D I had to read it like 4 times to get what u are saying...

Ok if I got this right..Are u saying that God made fresh humans for adam's children to mate with?... :D If u say yes...than U know I will ask u how did u arrive at that conclusion :D

I guess I forgot that God alone owns the rights for human cloning. :)

peace :D

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:D I had to read it like 4 times to get what u are saying...

Ok if I got this right..Are u saying that God made fresh humans for adam's children to mate with?... :D If u say yes...than U know I will ask u how did u arrive at that conclusion :D

I guess I forgot that God alone owns the rights for human cloning. :)

peace :D

 

Kinda like that.

It's not "gospel truth" and isn't mentioned specifically anywhere but it's the only thing I think makes sense and, of course, isn't against Islamic teaching either (as far as I'm aware...someone please correct me if I'm wrong :D )

 

Salaam

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Kinda like that.

It's not "gospel truth" and isn't mentioned specifically anywhere but it's the only thing I think makes sense and, of course, isn't against Islamic teaching either (as far as I'm aware...someone please correct me if I'm wrong :D )

 

Salaam

WS

So it's your opinion?

Somewhat makes sense but without proper reference it's not acceptable. Bcaz one can also say that the children of Adam didn't need to mate to have Kids...so there's no incest involved..( knowing the story of Jesus, we know it's possible) :D

I feel that with any religion anything can be justified, It's useless to quarrel than other than to gain knowledge.

peace :D

Edited by llogical

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Salaam...yes you're right, it'sjust my opinion :D

 

Peace

WS

That's what I thought.still it's something to think about.

Not sure why it never occurred to me b4.

Thanks 2 u ..now I have more stuff to think about :D

(just kidding :D)

peace

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Adam and Eve were not apes for they were human beings. Charles Darwin and his followers had slandered Adam and Even by calling them apes. The reasons why Adam and Eve were not apes:

 

1) Human beings have 23 pairs of chromosones but apes have 24 pairs of chromosones.

 

2) There are no fossils that link human beings to apes!

 

3) Science is based on theories that are proven by experiments. However the so-called Charles Darwin theory that says that human beings are the descendants of apes is wrong and misleading for it has no proofs to back up its claim. Charles darwin theory is based on assumption so we cannot call it a theory! How can the so-called scientists believe in it the so-called theory since it has no concrete proofs to show us?

 

4) Why are the apes and its cousins still live as animals do? Why don't they become intelligent creatures and become professors of the universities instead of wasting time in the jungle and zoos? Even the apes in the zoo are still stupid!

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Adam and Eve were not apes for they were human beings. Charles Darwin and his followers had slandered Adam and Even by calling them apes. The reasons why Adam and Eve were not apes:

The theory of evolution does not say we descended from apes. You should really learn the fundamentals of a topic before you start discussing it :D

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The theory of evolution does not say we descended from apes. You should really learn the fundamentals of a topic before you start discussing it :D

 

 

Charles Darwin's assumption is included in the theory of evolution. Please read biology books!

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As I recall, Homo-sapiens and apes share the same ancestor. I didn't google it so don't quote me yet. This wouldn't make apes our ancestots, well maybe in a cousinish type of way. :D

But still I would doubt if Adam was an ape,but perhaps a homo (I mean belonging to the Genus homo)

 

peace

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