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Adam Vs. Evolution

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2) There are no fossils that link human beings to apes!

 

australopithecus afarensis

australopithecus robustus

australopithecus anamensis

australopithecus bahrelghazali

australopithecus garhi

paranthropus boisei

paranthropus aethiopicus

paranthropus robustus

homo habilis

homo erectus

homo ergaster

homo rudolfensis

homo floresiensis

homo antecessor

homo heidelbergensis

homo neanderthalensis

homo rhodesiensis

homo cepranensis

homo georgicus

 

 

4) Why are the apes and its cousins still live as animals do? Why don't they become intelligent creatures and become professors of the universities instead of wasting time in the jungle and zoos? Even the apes in the zoo are still stupid!

why do they need to? there is no evolutionary benefit in doing this. there was benefit in us developing bipedalism and intelligence because of the development of african savannahs, so human ancestors had to walk around and find food

Edited by Ezkerraldean

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Salam,

 

Before i reply, let me make clear that I am not any Muslim scholar or anything (to be honest i am not much religious at this stage). This is what I think regarding this issue:

 

Adam was Muslim because he followed what Allah (not god as Allah and god is not the same thing) asked him to do. A Jew can not call himself Muslim because he does not believe in Allah or even he believes in Allah, he can not be Muslim until he follows all his rules.

 

At Adam's time, Adam followed whatever rule Allah imposed (he didn’t needed prophet because he came from Allah). At Noah or Jesus’ time (i don’t know if I’ve got the names right) they followed whatever rule Allah imposed upon them. So all of the prophets are Muslim simply because they believed and followed Allah.

 

Now, a person in Mohammed's (peace be upon him) time, can be Muslim simply if he follows Allah's rule. Allah's rules require them to believe Mohammed (PUBH), the Koran, etc. Christians and Jews are not Muslims because they are not following the rules.

 

Muslim is not an exclusive title for people from Mohammed’s (PUBH) time. Anyone followed Allah before Mohammed (PUBH) are also Muslim. (and when i say anyone follows Allah means, he must follow all his rules, obey the prophet of that time, etc)

 

Is it that hard to understand?

 

 

The theory of evolution is just a theory. There's no proof of it. How can Human evolved from other species? Some of the human organs are so complex that it would require far more than coincidence to evolve and cooperate with each other. How comes no other species are not clever as us? If monkey or rat (whoever we evolved from) is our ancestor or even cousin, why are they not like us? All other animals are far away from us intellectually. If the theory is correct, there would have been (at least) some other animals that have evolved similarly to us.

 

Allah doesn't change his mind. He might give certain privilege to certain individuals. He might have given the privilege of incest to Adam’s children so that they can populate. We are not allowed to incest because we have alternatives for populating. Allah gave Mohammed (PBUH) the privilege to marry 12 times. Why normal Muslim can’t marry 12 times? Because we are not him or in his situation.

 

Human has certain degree of freedom. U can do anything within that degree of freedom. Because of such freedom, we are judged. If Allah controlled everything, there would have been no point of hell or heaven. Say For example: if someone decides to rob a person who has Allah's blessing, Allah might prevent him from robbing him in some way. People who are starving because Allah has a plan (or will) with them. Maybe he wants some generous to come and help them, maybe he wants to test the starving people's loyalty. Human have control over certain things but Allah has control over everything. Human are judged based on the things he had control over.

 

 

Now, u also have a degree of freedom. U can either agree with all of this or carry on with the argument. But of course Allah knows what both of us will do. He knows how we will use our freedom.

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Salam,

 

At Adam's time, Adam followed whatever rule Allah imposed (he didn’t needed prophet because he came from Allah). At Noah or Jesus’ time (i don’t know if I’ve got the names right) they followed whatever rule Allah imposed upon them. So all of the prophets are Muslim simply because they believed and followed Allah.

 

Now, a person in Mohammed's (peace be upon him) time, can be Muslim simply if he follows Allah's rule. Allah's rules require them to believe Mohammed (PUBH), the Koran, etc. Christians and Jews are not Muslims because they are not following the rules.

 

Muslim is not an exclusive title for people from Mohammed’s (PUBH) time. Anyone followed Allah before Mohammed (PUBH) are also Muslim. (and when i say anyone follows Allah means, he must follow all his rules, obey the prophet of that time, etc)

 

Is it that hard to understand?

Hmm...well U say that Allah's rules don't change ..but then u say that it was ok for Adam's children to have incest because Allah allowed it then but we can't do it in today's age.That sounds like change to me.

The theory of evolution is just a theory. There's no proof of it. How can Human evolved from other species? Some of the human organs are so complex that it would require far more than coincidence to evolve and cooperate with each other. How comes no other species are not clever as us? If monkey or rat (whoever we evolved from) is our ancestor or even cousin, why are they not like us? All other animals are far away from us intellectually. If the theory is correct, there would have been (at least) some other animals that have evolved similarly to us.

 

Theory? yes... but there is substancial empirical evidence to support the theory.Forget the animals and look at us, we are so different, some of us are double jointed, some extremely tall and some short etc, variation proves nothing.

More then a coincidence? maybe..everyone has one in million if not billion chances to get struck by lightening. Still people do get struck by lightening. Considering a genetic mutation a highly unprobable event, u can say that it's highly unlikely to occur but not impossible.So it's not so much the lack of proof but also the lack of disproof that counts.

 

peace

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Salam,

 

Changing the rule and getting some privilege is not the same thing. All Muslim would go to hell unless they abide by Allah's law. This is one of the fundamental beliefs of Muslim. If this is correct, all Muslim will go to hell as no one is perfect, no one is able to follow all the Allah's rules (unless they are prophet or Angels). But the question is, are we all going to hell? No, some of us get forgiven. So how is it possible that some of us commit sin yet get to heaven (according to the rule all sinner goes to hell)? Will Allah change the rule? No, the rules will be still there but Allah will merely grant him a privilege by giving forgiveness. (now dont start another argument saying that the christians (from Mohammed's pubh age) will get privelage of forgivensss. They won't becuase they are not muslim. When muslim commit sins, they are forgiven if Allah wills. But for non-muslim, it usually doesn't happen.

 

Tall, short, ugly and beautiful human or whatever, we are still human. 99% or none of the Human resemble with any animals. If getting strike by a lightening is highly unlikely but not impossible, why not one of the monkeys or any animal evolves to human (or even close to human or at least mimic a human). According to the theory (conclusion), such thing is not impossible. It might be unlikely to happen in our life time (in short period of time), but its not impossible. But than again, using your theory, people still get struck by lighting. So, there must be someone on this planet who is currently evolving to human from something else or vice versa. :D

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Salam,

 

Changing the rule and getting some privilege is not the same thing.

 

 

salamz

Ok.. :D but how is this relevant to what I said?

 

All Muslim would go to hell unless they abide by Allah's law. This is one of the fundamental beliefs of Muslim. If this is correct, all Muslim will go to hell as no one is perfect, no one is able to follow all the Allah's rules (unless they are prophet or Angels). But the question is, are we all going to hell? No, some of us get forgiven. So how is it possible that some of us commit sin yet get to heaven (according to the rule all sinner goes to hell)? Will Allah change the rule? No, the rules will be still there but Allah will merely grant him a privilege by giving forgiveness. (now dont start another argument saying that the christians (from Mohammed's pubh age) will get privelage of forgivensss. They won't becuase they are not muslim. When muslim commit sins, they are forgiven if Allah wills. But for non-muslim, it usually doesn't happen.

 

Tall, short, ugly and beautiful human or whatever, we are still human. 99% or none of the Human resemble with any animals. If getting strike by a lightening is highly unlikely but not impossible, why not one of the monkeys or any animal evolves to human (or even close to human or at least mimic a human). According to the theory (conclusion), such thing is not impossible. It might be unlikely to happen in our life time (in short period of time), but its not impossible. But than again, using your theory, people still get struck by lighting. So, there must be someone on this planet who is currently evolving to human from something else or vice versa. :D

Interesting examples u used but in my opinion atleast, there are so many problems with them.let me point out two.

1.matter of sin/blessings are not so simple as black and white.Killing can be a sin or blessing.Eating can be a sin or blessing.The way to heaven follow many other rules that are intertwined with each other.

2.U do not know if a sinner will get heaven or hell so the fact that u say"Not all of us are going to hell' is invalid.Only God knows that, U have no idea what will happen in Dooms day.

If u ever took a statistics class, U know what I mean. Using inductive reasoning ( going from specific to general) without the use of statistical data to backup spells trouble.

Lightening was a general example to point out to u what a random event is.

U saying that some one is mutating right now is probably worse then saying that some one is getting struck by lightening right now. Again due to inductive reasoning. Bcaz the probability of a lightening strike can be estimated where the p of mutation is not known.

Besides, I'm sure that u will not argue that human genes mutate. Did u not see the post about the girl borned with 3 hands? what u call that "God's Plan"?... because I won;t argue against that ....Maybe God was lending out a helping hand :D

but what about people borned as retards? God's plan? really? Maybe that was some sort of a punishment. But wait being borned retarded? did the babies can't commit sin before being borned?it's useless to argue against genetic mutation because one can't deny that it's a fact. Hence one can not deny that it may/probably have been the key factor in human evolution.

Peace :D

Edited by llogical

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Assalamu Alaikum,

 

Islam means submission. Muslims are those, who follow the word and rules of Allah.

 

Allah created adam himself, then Allah created his wife 'eve' from him.

And the marriage process for Adam's children (at that time), was also not incest relationship bcuz Adam and Eve gave birth to twin (male) at a time, then (female) twin.

 

matter of sin/blessings are not so simple as black and white.Killing can be a sin or blessing.Eating can be a sin or blessing.The way to heaven follow many other rules that are intertwined with each other.

 

-> Allah is most forgiving, no one can't tell who is going to hell, or who is for heaven. Allah can forgive the most sinner, while punish one who obey him but may doing some mistake , we don't even know !!

 

To be muslim, one must have believe in the oneness of Allah, and kalima, and follow the rule of Allah by heart and work accordingly.

 

At the time of Adam, Profet Hazrat Mohammad SW (peace be upon him) was not there, and Adam himself the first profet of Islam (who bear the withness of Allah) so , to be muslim, the kalima "La ilaha Illalahu" was enough for him and following Allah's guideline.

 

At the end, I would show you something from holy Quran, Its from Surah Yâ-Sîn. [6-10]

 

"In order that you may warn a people whose forefathers were not warned, so they are heedless.

Indeed the Word (of punishment) has proved true against most of them, so they will not believe.

Verily! We have put on their necks iron collars reaching to chins, so that their heads are forced up.

And We have put a barrier before them, and a barrier behind them, and We have covered them up, so that they cannot see.

It is the same to them whether you warn them or you warn them not, they will not believe."

 

May Allah help us all to think in straight way with true Logic :D ( :D we all have brain to think the miracle from Allah and praise Him)

 

-Assalamu alaikum.

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Islam means submission. Muslims are those, who follow the word and rules of Allah.

 

Allah created adam himself, then Allah created his wife 'eve' from him.

And the marriage process for Adam's children (at that time), was also not incest relationship bcuz Adam and Eve gave birth to twin (male) at a time, then (female) twin.

what's twins got to do with anything? :D

each twins have one set of biological parents, Adam and Eve.

It doesn't matter if triplets or septeplets are borned at the same time bcaz they will still be related to the next batch of children and thus incest.

 

I know the reasoning behind considering Adam a muslim.

Ofcource there are still unasnwered concerns which I will not get into bcaz but my point was, why not send Quran with Adam?

If Adam was a prophet, what scripture did he have? why wouldn't god give Adam the Quran or tools necessary to guide the humans instead of waiting centuries. :D

 

peace :D

Edited by llogical

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what's twins got to do with anything? :D

each twins have one set of biological parents, Adam and Eve.

It doesn't matter if triplets or septeplets are borned at the same time bcaz they will still be related to the next batch of children and thus incest.

 

> First tell me, how the concept of Incest relationship came into being ? If human are not civilized,,right ? How did you got ur brain to think all this civilization and manner ?

 

Think a situation in where getting married with sister is only permissible, and its the rule from Islam; then unbelivers would ask why not getting married with other girl Incest?

The true is , when Allah tell us, we have follow that rule.

 

 

I know the reasoning behind considering Adam a muslim.

Ofcource there are still unasnwered concerns which I will not get into bcaz but my point was, why not send Quran with Adam?

If Adam was a prophet, what scripture did he have? why wouldn't god give Adam the Quran or tools necessary to guide the humans instead of waiting centuries. :D

 

peace :D

 

> Allah sent down appropriate guideline whenever required..; And Allah must not bound to Answer us all the question. we were created, and Almighty Allah is the Creator.

And Allah knows the best.

 

 

- May Allah help you.

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First tell me, how the concept of Incest relationship came into being ? If human are not civilized,,right ? How did you got ur brain to think all this civilization and manner ?

:D not sure if i get ur point here.U want me break it down again? no problem :D

The concept of incest relationship came from observing a simple and supposively real fact of life.

-6 billion people share the same two anncestors (Adam & Eve)

- If that's true then the only possible way the first generation could have reproduced is

incest.

-If god forbids incest.

 

So now let's combine these facts and examine them.

Maybe God forbade incest after the last prophet came, so perhaps before it was ok and later god had a change of heart.

Not true because a perfect God doesn't change his mind about stuff.

So maybe Adam didn't know about this.

But since Adam was a muslim/profit, he must have known what a muslim is suppose to do. He must have received the guidelines.

Maybe the kids didn't have incest.

Not true because sharing teh same biological parents with someone make u their bro/sis.

 

Something somewhere doesn't add up in this equation.

Allah knows best is another way of saying that I do not know the reason nor care enough.Because it's a given that Allah knows everything hence it's needless to bringup.

So far the only thing i find useful was someone saying that perhaps god made more humans from scratch ( like adam eve ). But at this point it's only a speculation. Honestly speaking bro, I did'nt get the point U R trying t make :D

 

Peace

:D

Edited by llogical

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Illogical, you are so ridiculous not getting the point all this far! How about let's not keep questioning and start thinking? Something that people don't do anymore nowadays!

 

Allah communicated with Adam directly of the laws of being a Muslim. Adam acknowledged yet he sinned. He repented sincerely, knowing Allah is so merciful, so that he may be forgiven. Adam himself would be the teacher (a.k.a. Prophet) of his own children, teaching them the very simple laws that Allah had once decreed to him. Adam was the only prophet at that very early beginning of mankind until the day he died of old age. As conditions changed (such as population, which I will explain soon), Allah sent down (or made one of the children - Allah knows best) a prophet. That prophet decreed them the very same laws that Prophet Adam had decreed, but also added new laws that are necessary for their specific condition or time. This goes on the same way all the way until 1,400 years ago where societies change drastically over time, that Allah must send more prophets to remind the people of everything the previous prophets had decreeded and to add even more laws. Now Islam is the final religion of all religions and Prophet Muhammad is the final prophet of all propehts because clearly Allah sees we are now in the condition of where our laws are most fitting and most universal for every person and every situation - black, brown, or white. Now Islam has been regarded as the most complete religion of all religions. It has become considered not just a religion but a sociopolitical religion which it would become practical to follow every law Allah had provided us to become our very best. Who follows Allah's complete laws are regarded the very best of all mankind as He had noted in the Qur'an. Is this understood?

 

Now this relates very closely with your constant questioning of incest.

 

If you were Allah, and you created two human beings, how would you encourage population growth? You order them to be "fruitful and multiply". Now they give birth to many sons and daughters. How will you encourage population growth after that? You encourage them to inter-marry and that gives way to an even more explosive population growth. After a certain generations, you begin to see the population to be plentiful enough for incest to be unnecessary. You send down a prophet (or make one of them the prophet) to gently advise all people of that community to no longer inter-marry. You, being Allah, also realize there will be people who will disregard your decree, thus you add a warning. You tell them through that prophet that if they shall disobey you, they shall suffer the consequences of disfigured children and diseases among them. You choose how you wish to implement that punishment. No one but Allah knows when it comes to His wisdom among this complicated life progress. Is this understood?

 

Everything is done with a purpose. Just look at why we even have fingers. We never needed to pick up rocks or cultivate farms. We can eat off the ground with just webbed feet or something. But no, we have fingers. Why is that? Because this is a direct cause of purpose! This is why the theory of evolution sincerely fails. Evolution does not respond to a purpose. They respond "just because" or by "chance" or by "good conditions". To say this is all part of evolution is just wishful thinking... :D

 

Not true because a perfect God doesn't change his mind about stuff.

 

The fact I see you decide of what a "perfect God" is makes you look stupid. You, a human being, can NOT decide what God is. You can NOT define God. God defines YOU. To define God is an insult because you are nothing like Him. You are nothing to Him. So your pathetic statement of "...because a perfect God doesnt..." is completely refuted. Again, you can NOT define God. He defines YOU. And of course, Allah knows best of everything.

 

Peace & Grace,

Jeff.

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Illogical, you are so ridiculous not getting the point all this far! How about let's not keep questioning and start thinking? Something that people don't do anymore nowadays!

People don't think anymore? :D

:D That would mean either You yourself don't think Or you are not people.

Ridiculous? I agree

Allah communicated with Adam directly of the laws of being a Muslim. Adam acknowledged yet he sinned. He repented sincerely, knowing Allah is so merciful, so that he may be forgiven. Adam himself would be the teacher (a.k.a. Prophet) of his own children, teaching them the very simple laws that Allah had once decreed to him. Adam was the only prophet at that very early beginning of mankind until the day he died of old age. As conditions changed (such as population, which I will explain soon), Allah sent down (or made one of the children - Allah knows best) a prophet. That prophet decreed them the very same laws that Prophet Adam had decreed, but also added new laws that are necessary for their specific condition or time. This goes on the same way all the way until 1,400 years ago where societies change drastically over time, that Allah must send more prophets to remind the people of everything the previous prophets had decreeded and to add even more laws. Now Islam is the final religion of all religions and Prophet Muhammad is the final prophet of all propehts because clearly Allah sees we are now in the condition of where our laws are most fitting and most universal for every person and every situation - black, brown, or white. Now Islam has been regarded as the most complete religion of all religions. It has become considered not just a religion but a sociopolitical religion which it would become practical to follow every law Allah had provided us to become our very best. Who follows Allah's complete laws are regarded the very best of all mankind as He had noted in the Qur'an. Is this understood?

thanx for a useless summary/history lesson. :D

Now this relates very closely with your constant questioning of incest.

 

If you were Allah, and you created two human beings, how would you encourage population growth? You order them to be "fruitful and multiply". Now they give birth to many sons and daughters. How will you encourage population growth after that? You encourage them to inter-marry and that gives way to an even more explosive population growth. After a certain generations, you begin to see the population to be plentiful enough for incest to be unnecessary. You send down a prophet (or make one of them the prophet) to gently advise all people of that community to no longer inter-marry. You, being Allah, also realize there will be people who will disregard your decree, thus you add a warning. You tell them through that prophet that if they shall disobey you, they shall suffer the consequences of disfigured children and diseases among them. You choose how you wish to implement that punishment. No one but Allah knows when it comes to His wisdom among this complicated life progress. Is this understood?

Ok, If u want to disrespect God by putting me in his Shoes...it's on your head homie.

But here is my answer.

If I was in God's shoes then I would have either

1-made atleast 2 couples from scratch so their offsprings would intermarry.

OR

2- wouldn't have banned incest.

OR Else

Wouldn't claim Perfection.

Furthermore:

Like I said numerous times b4, I would have sent the Quran with Adam. I wouldn't make billions of people pay for the mistake of one....List goes On...

 

Everything is done with a purpose. Just look at why we even have fingers. We never needed to pick up rocks or cultivate farms. We can eat off the ground with just webbed feet or something. But no, we have fingers. Why is that? Because this is a direct cause of purpose! This is why the theory of evolution sincerely fails. Evolution does not respond to a purpose. They respond "just because" or by "chance" or by "good conditions". To say this is all part of evolution is just wishful thinking... :D

Yeah I'm not in a mood to defend Darwin, :D But I am sure that you will find people including muslims who do not disagree with evolution. Maybe they can put you on

The fact I see you decide of what a "perfect God" is makes you look stupid. You, a human being, can NOT decide what God is. You can NOT define God. God defines YOU. To define God is an insult because you are nothing like Him. You are nothing to Him. So your pathetic statement of "...because a perfect God doesnt..." is completely refuted. Again, you can NOT define God. He defines YOU. And of course, Allah knows best of everything.

 

Peace & Grace,

Jeff.

U serious?....do u not understand what perfect means? :D

Something that's perefct, has no more room for improvement.

Like a perefct score, 100, can't get no better.

About defining God, U just did that yourself. Do u not submit to God because u have a certain schema of God in your head.

How can u get a schema without definition?

How else can u know/understand anything without definition? :D

If God defines perfect and perefct doesn't define God then let me ask you this.

What would you do if God just threw u in hell to keep the fire going?

What can u say? But God ....that's not fair? but he knows fair better then U.He defines fair fair doesn;t define him. Your fairness is also refuted.

The only thing u can say now is that God will never do that. But if u do say that then U are claiming to God better then he himself. He doesn't need to fit your expectation of fair good or even God, he is God the definitionless being. God defines me? How? Do u know what it is? Did u ever hear him or see him or feel him or anything else him defining me? Are you on medication? just kidding :D

It's fun stuff :D but Plz, only respond if u have something useful to add. Also I know it's a long thread and it difficullt to read every post but plz try not to repeat stuff

Peace :D

Edited by llogical

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I'm sorry. All you've been doing is misunderstanding me. And BTW, you mentioned being "born a Muslim". Guess what, that doesn't mean anything. You either know Islam or you don't. And a lot of people don't.

 

That "useless" history lesson is the answer to your constant questioning of:

 

1) Adam being a prophet/Muslim.

2) Incest being allowed earlier on.

3) And so on that I don't even remember anymore. :X

 

So you disagree with the idea of changing rules/laws over time (such as banning incest afterwards)? You don't think that laws and rules can change according to population and geographical differences? Interesting.

 

Wouldn't claim Perfection.

 

Again, how can you define God's perfection? His perfection is unimaginable. We apparently have different mindsets when it comes to perfection.

 

Like I said numerous times b4, I would have sent the Quran with Adam. I wouldn't make billions of people pay for the mistake of one....List goes On...

 

Why send the Qur'an if Adam can speak with God alone? Why send the Qur'an when paper technology was non-existent? Why send the Qur'an when it'd be only one page saying "Be Fruitful and Multiply"? Why send the Qur'an when God needs to encourage natural development of language (I don't think Adam knew how to read or write at that moment) - then again I guess we could question why God didn't give him that ability at that moment but we will never know, only Allah. Why send the Qur'an when God wants to test mankind?

 

I am very sure people will defend evolution. Whether it is right or wrong, to be honest, I don't even know. It seems more like we'll have to see the Truth at the end. Getting the last laugh is not really my concern (but most Atheists do). But if Islam is the Truth, then we will have to acknowledge that Adam and Eve was true. And I don't really find it impossible to believe that. If Islam had always been a simple religion, then so will its explanation of history (which strangely is also very consistent with science). And you know what, the fact is this - there's a purpose for every little thing. Evolution just does not fit the idea. If man was to program their own world, they would utterly fail.

 

What would you do if God just threw u in hell to keep the fire going?

 

Umm, it's His choice. It is not mine. He owns me as we all can agree on. But if God made a promise (as he did in the Qur'an), then he will stick by those promises. :D

 

Take care.

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I'm sorry. All you've been doing is misunderstanding me. And BTW, you mentioned being "born a Muslim". Guess what, that doesn't mean anything. You either know Islam or you don't. And a lot of people don't.

True in the sense that some people are cultural muslims or chrsitians.

I'm too lazy to go back and see where in the thread, and why I said that. But the point probably was that I am more then well aquianted with Islam because I was borned into a practicing muslim family.

 

That "useless" history lesson is the answer to your constant questioning of:

 

1) Adam being a prophet/Muslim.

2) Incest being allowed earlier on.

3) And so on that I don't even remember anymore. :X

Ok, but u was just summarizing what we laready discussed, I didn't get the point of that. :D

 

So you disagree with the idea of changing rules/laws over time (such as banning incest afterwards)? You don't think that laws and rules can change according to population and geographical differences? Interesting.

actually, I personally feel that rules should change to keep up with the changing world.

Change= constant.

However, Quran boasts it's never changing essance, the emphasiz is on laws that are constant for 1500 years. This goes well with the idea that God doesn't change his mind, his set principles are universal, and carved in stone. Now if u say that God changed his mind prior to the existance of Quran, It doesn't make sense because the world is still changing, If God did it then, then Why not Upgrade Quran now?

It's not me, A God with changing rules is problemetic for theology.

Again, how can you define God's perfection? His perfection is unimaginable. We apparently have different mindsets when it comes to perfection.

Why send the Qur'an if Adam can speak with God alone? Why send the Qur'an when paper technology was non-existent? Why send the Qur'an when it'd be only one page saying "Be Fruitful and Multiply"? Why send the Qur'an when God needs to encourage natural development of language (I don't think Adam knew how to read or write at that moment) - then again I guess we could question why God didn't give him that ability at that moment but we will never know, only Allah. Why send the Qur'an when God wants to test mankind?

Every word means something, Perefect means something too...example... "Flawless" , something that has "no more room for improvement". If God wasn't perfect as described then he would be called something else..perhaps a new word "Agoobua" would mean perfect beyong imagination. :D

But that's not the case, God claims perfection, and we humans do know what that means.

Besides, If no one could understand God,then ho wcould humans understand their relation to God? For some people, It's a taboo to talk about God and things that don't make snese at face vlaue. Yet God gave us a brain and thoughts, what's wrong with using it then:D

About Adam not being able to read and write, Did u forget that the Prophet also couldn't read or write. paper wasn't invented till round the 3/4th century,and the first compilation of Quran didn't come about until after the caliphate of Abu Bakr.( i think)

Adam was smart enought to communicate with God and learn that he needs to stay away from the forbidden fruit etc, then why couldn't he understand and memorize Quran?People do it all the time, (Hifz), or use tree barks, papyrus even stone...yeah literally write in stone :D

It would work for his generations to come as they wouldn't be lost with out Adam and the ability to speak to God.

 

 

I am very sure people will defend evolution. Whether it is right or wrong, to be honest, I don't even know. It seems more like we'll have to see the Truth at the end. Getting the last laugh is not really my concern (but most Atheists do). But if Islam is the Truth, then we will have to acknowledge that Adam and Eve was true. And I don't really find it impossible to believe that. If Islam had always been a simple religion, then so will its explanation of history (which strangely is also very consistent with science). And you know what, the fact is this - there's a purpose for every little thing. Evolution just does not fit the idea. If man was to program their own world, they would utterly fail.

Umm, it's His choice. It is not mine. He owns me as we all can agree on. But if God made a promise (as he did in the Qur'an), then he will stick by those promises. :D

 

Take care.

Evolution is just a theory with some missing links, and there is no conclusive evidence in Quran that Flat out Goes against evolution.... So yeah, I agree it's hanging in the air/contraversial etc. Though the consistency with science can be an illusion, due to fuzzy matches. Even if not, it proves nothing becaz even when science doesn't agree, Quran is still right.

In any case, the problem remains, I am not content with the fact that adam's Children comiited incest and that God changed his mind. Also if the fact that he changed his mind back then but he will not do it anymore.

 

 

peace :D

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Like I said numerous times b4, I would have sent the Quran with Adam. I wouldn't make billions of people pay for the mistake of one....List goes On...

:D

 

Here's another answer,

At the time of the early prophets, since man's classes were very distant from one another, and their characters both somewhat coarse, and violent, and their minds, primitive and close to nomadism, the Laws at that time came all in different forms in ways appropriate to their conditions. There were even different prophets and laws in the same continent in the same century. Then, since with the coming of the Prophet of the end of time, man as though advanced from the primary to the secondary stage, and through numerous revolutions and upheavals reached a position at which all the human peoples could receive a single lesson and listen to a single teacher and act in accordance with a single Law, no need remained for different Laws, neither was there necessity for different teachers.

 

Peace

 

:D

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:D

 

Here's another answer,

At the time of the early prophets, since man's classes were very distant from one another, and their characters both somewhat coarse, and violent, and their minds, primitive and close to nomadism, the Laws at that time came all in different forms in ways appropriate to their conditions. There were even different prophets and laws in the same continent in the same century. Then, since with the coming of the Prophet of the end of time, man as though advanced from the primary to the secondary stage, and through numerous revolutions and upheavals reached a position at which all the human peoples could receive a single lesson and listen to a single teacher and act in accordance with a single Law, no need remained for different Laws, neither was there necessity for different teachers.

 

Peace

 

:D

In other words, humans around the 5th/6th century were much more civilized/evolved then the humans thousands of year back. Hence the rules changed to correspond with the the growing intelligence /evolution of the humans. I can buy that, but my question would be, why stop at 5th century? The teachings of Quran are constant.Yet human lifestyle/intelligence is ever evolving/changing. If the changing world/human behavior was the reason for changing rules,Why would the rules stop changing after the 6th century when the people have'nt stopped changing?

peace

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In other words, humans around the 5th/6th century were much more civilized/evolved then the humans thousands of year back. Hence the rules changed to correspond with the the growing intelligence /evolution of the humans. I can buy that, but my question would be, why stop at 5th century? The teachings of Quran are constant.Yet human lifestyle/intelligence is ever evolving/changing. If the changing world/human behavior was the reason for changing rules,Why would the rules stop changing after the 6th century when the people have'nt stopped changing?

peace

It hasn't stopped but for the essence of the religion of Allah, Allah put his mains with plent variables in the Quran for final and it'll never be changed again, while several schools wich we call madhabs occured because of the changing world (not human anymore I guess, because human didn't get more inteliigent or smth as you called, they got more more civilized,more cultural, more human by time but they were all the same, only time changed and there civilization got more advanced, it's nothing about there evolution I think -but you may believe as you want- 'cause this is my opinion).Anyway as we said many madhabs born because time was changing and Quran and Sunnah had be explored and explained, all the madhabs get there information from the Quran, all of them revive the religion from Quran,Quran is constant but the laws the madhabs and scholars take from it always grows and grows or gets freshed. Like Quran came and especially after the sahabiis because the people, because But because they were not all at completely the same level and did not proceed in the same sort of social life, the Schools of Law (madhabs) became numerous. If, like students of a school of higher education, the vast majority of mankind were clothed in the same sort of social life and attained the same level, then all the schools could be united. But just as the state of the world does not permit that, so too the Schools of Law cannot be the same.

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For example, since, in accordance with Divine wisdom and determining, the majority of those who follow Imam Shafi'i are closer to village life and nomadism than the Hanefis, and are lacking in social life, which makes the community like a single body. Lets say, since through forming a barrier against the assaults of nature, the Shari'a modifies it and trains the evil-commanding soul, according to the Shafi'i School, most of whose followers are villagers, semi-nomadic, and occupied in manual labour: "Ablutions are spoilt by touching a woman; the slightest uncleanliness is harmful." While according to the Hanefi School, since the great majority of those who participate in it have entered social life and become 'semi-civilized': "Touching women does not spoil the ablutions; there is licence for a small amount of uncleanliness."

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First off, I personally do not believe that there is anything wrong with pastoral or normadic lifestyles.Your posts seem to suggest that a civilized ( as in urbanized) society is more human then a primitive one, I would disagree there.

 

Second I am not sure if I understand ur answer correctly.

initially, you seemed to suggest that the divine rules change because people change, their behavior changed.

Fine, but people/their behavior is still changing. How can a constant set of rules be justified then?

I get what U R trying to say about madhabs and the split in school of thoughts, but that is the precise reason why we need more prophets and more rules to keep up with the changes. This way people would have a clear understanding of right & wrong.

 

peace

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As I said the essence of the religion is been finalized. You say they'll have a clear understanding of right & wrong if there was an new book, but understanding doesn't need any more prophets or holy books. Madhabs and scholars who has the ability to give fatwas or make ijtihad's (to comment on Quran to sentence on different subjects which isn't explained so clearly in Quran or Sunnah). What I'm trying to say is every madhabs or every scholar given fatwas looks in the Quran and the Sunnah, they take refrence from the holy book our the porphets actions (sunnah). Thats how they revive the religion, see they re-explain it as the world changes, but beacuse they always do research from Quran, you can see that Quran isn't smth taht gets old or ancient. So you can't say Quran is constant so it is likely to get old or stmh. No Quran explaines how to do things and suggests many ways to do it. Present scholars gives decision from Quran always. This is the Qur'an's youth. It preserves its freshness and youth every age as though newly revealed. Indeed, it is necessary for the Qur'an to have a perpetual youth since as a pre-eternal address, it addresses at once all the levels of mankind in every age. And that is how it is seen and appears. Even, although all the centuries are different with regard to ideas and capacity, it is as though it looks to each of them particularly, and teaches it. Man's works and laws grow old like man, they change and are changed. But the rulings and laws of the Qur'an are so firm and well-established that they increase in strength as the centuries pass. I can give so many books-refrences on Quran's youth written by the greates scholars in Islam history.

 

peace

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As a quick reply, the world wont live so long, it is believed that civilization will end as armegaddon is close. There is hadith's on this topic.

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As I said the essence of the religion is been finalized.

Ok, but what I was saying was, what's the reason that it was finalized?

If it was the changing human behavior, lik eyou pointed out then the behavior is still changing.

If God did that for no rhyme or reason or for one that's beyond human capablity to understand then to me this behavior isn't consistant with the description of a Perfect God.

You say they'll have a clear understanding of right & wrong if there was an new book, but understanding doesn't need any more prophets or holy books. Madhabs and scholars who has the ability to give fatwas or make ijtihad's (to comment on Quran to sentence on different subjects which isn't explained so clearly in Quran or Sunnah). What I'm trying to say is every madhabs or every scholar given fatwas looks in the Quran and the Sunnah, they take refrence from the holy book our the porphets actions (sunnah). Thats how they revive the religion, see they re-explain it as the world changes, but beacuse they always do research from Quran, you can see that Quran isn't smth taht gets old or ancient. So you can't say Quran is constant so it is likely to get old or stmh.

If understanding and reviving was that simple then what accounts for the endless subdivisions of madhabs and contraversies amongst scholars?

That's because message which made perect sense in the old context is vague in the new context. Example, to me drawing is not the same thing as taking a digital picture.

Where the former requires lots of time and effort and skills the latter requires very little.

How can we then that since drawing is bad , taking pictures is also bad? It's a fuzzy match.( just an example)

You mentioned the sunnah, and following the Prophet was a perfect role model.

That should mean that one should travel on horses and camels, The auto and jets may not be forbidden but Sunnah gets priority over convenience.

I'm sure some one can prove that these are innovative ideas and if the prophet can do it, we should have no problem. Maybe true Except for times have changed.

I can't complain if a perefct God could come up with aperfect scripture that's timeless in essance but I have a reason to object if he did it 4 times in the past and then just stopped. I can't justify God's action ( cause i'm dumb N all :D ) but I have a right to justify my own beliefs right.

Peace

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As a quick reply, the world wont live so long, it is believed that civilization will end as armegaddon is close. There is hadith's on this topic.

 

What is not long? It has been around for billions of years already!

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After prophet muhammed it wont be so long, thats only 1400 years and you can see how big disasters waits Earth, see not billions...Anyway, I dont like discussions with non-islams that much, so thats all for me...

 

peace

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Anyway, I dont like discussions with non-islams that much, so thats all for me...

 

peace

Not sure how can an evolution thread evolve into this but that must be the reason why i didn't get an answer :D

And i here I thought it was a "sour grapes" case, :D

But it's all good though bro, u don't have to discuss anything with "non Islams"

I wonder what made u respond on the first place :D

 

 

Stupid kafirz :D ( wait does that include me ? O well :D )

Peace

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I could give you a response not because I cant, but I've had a lot of discussions, with ateists, theists,... (i.e non muslims) and it was just a waste of time, because they dont won't to believe as you say they would like to have fun only or enjoy there lives. You cant explain someone something whos main desire is to enjoy and not to gain the truth, but only to satisfy there souls request.

 

So Peace

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