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Apostasy in Islam

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sky/skynews/article/0,,30200-13514643,00.html

 

 

if this is Islam,then Islam is wrong

 

i always thought Islam was a peaceful religion...what is happening :D

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Dear rustykaks

 

I offer as some advice to you as a former non Muslim, and that is, look at what Islam teaches and not at what Muslims practice, no where in the Qur'aan or Sunnah is it mentioned to follow the Muslims; rather, we have been commanded to follow Allaah and His Messenegr (sall-Allaahu 'alayhi wa sallam).

 

The link that you posted does not work but in the spirit of being just it may be worth noting what many non Msulims do, we as Muslims condemn all acts of injustice, whether the injustice is carried out my non Muslims or Msulims.

 

Regards

 

Aboo Uthmaan

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The link that you posted does not work but in the spirit of being just it may be worth noting what many non Msulims do, we as Muslims condone all acts of injustice, whether the injustice is carried out my non Muslims or Msulims.

 

Peace ,

 

Did you perhaps mean to write condemn ? :D

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Dear wishful thinking

 

Yes I did, thanks for the correction, I have edited my post...

 

Regards

 

Aboo Uthmaan

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Guest amani

the link

 

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.sky(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/skynews/article/0,,30200-13514643,00.html"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.sky(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/skynews/article/0,,30200-13514643,00.html[/url]

 

 

and click (www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=12406&dgn=4"]here[/url]

 

Also how does this show Islam isnt a peaceful religion? :D how can you take a part of Islam and then conclude on it?

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Greetings, sister amani,

 

I do not understand the logic in your reply. You post that this is only a part of Islam, while posting a link that says it is mainstream. But then your argument is from the fallacy of (www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.nizkor(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/features/fallacies/special-pleading.html"]special pleading[/url]. Can one say "I am honest except when I am not" and still expect another to agree that one is honest? The special pleading is that Islam should be excepted from the usual rules.

 

On the other hand, I think Rustykak's argument is not well placed. The article references the death penalty, and thus is a reference to justice not peacefulness. I would agree that the death penalty is no longer appropriate in our world. It speaks of a past time when justice meant retribution. The alternative argument that the death penalty serves as a deterrent has been debunked in many studies.

 

The death penalty is on the decline (www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.infoplease(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/ipa/A0777460.html"]worldwide[/url], and this is a reflection of a changing world. It is somewhat embarassing to find my own country is the only industrialized country to have given up the death penalty only to reinstate it. The above article is disturbing because it denies the most fundamental of religious freedoms, the freedom to change one's beliefs.

 

I think it is unlikely that he will be executed even if condemned, however. There are too many examples of judgments being reversed when subjected to the pressure of world opinion. (Excepting the Bush administration, of course. <insert hand-smacking-forehead smiley>)

 

As ever, Jesse

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Also how does this show Islam isnt a peaceful religion?
... they're killing someone for changing his mind. And it's a command straight from the Quran. I dare say that killing people is not peaceful -- it doesn't mean the whole religion is violent, of course, but this part definitely is.

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U dont use the actions of some to justify a large group of people. If u do, then UR IGNORANT. Consider what u say before posting, know the facts about Islam and please don't post about 20 people doing something to justify 1 billions peoples actions.

 

Sorry, if I am a bit "rude", but posts like this just makes me angry.

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subhana Allah,

 

how the kuffar make muslims look bad. while you lot go on preaching your peace no matter what rubbish the kuffar know that either your lying or your completely ignorant of your din.

 

the price for leaving Islam after you have accepted it is death. if the judge acts according to this then he would have acted according to the Islamic sharia.

 

Islam is the truth if leave it then there is no good left in your life.

 

your comment if this is Islam then Islam is wrong... well this IS Islam and Islam is the truth from the Lord of the worlds.

 

and i dont care which ever hippy denies it. Allah is free of all needs. Allah does not need anyone or anything. We are in need of Him and completely dependent on Him

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the price for leaving Islam after you have accepted it is death.

and you wonder why non-muslims would say Islam is a violent religion. The penalty for the dissent of a muslim is apparantly death.

 

*sidenote* - the more I learn about Islam here the more and more I see it as something that is violent, rascist and discriminatory towards non-muslims. The issue of conquering non-muslim lands, discrimination against gays has not been resolved by the Islamic side on this forum. I would appreciate some more input in those threads cuz so far it still stands that Islam promotes extortion or murder of those that refuse to convert, promotes discrimination against gays, and all the muslims who have argued in those threads thus far seem to find this perfectly acceptable.

Edited by 3dshocker

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U dont use the actions of some to justify a large group of people. If u do, then UR IGNORANT. Consider what u say before posting, know the facts about Islam and please don't post about 20 people doing something to justify 1 billions peoples actions.

 

Sorry, if I am a bit "rude", but posts like this just makes me angry.

Salam, AhQee,

 

I apologize for any hard feelings, but perhaps we can set aside our feelings for a moment and see where this disagreement arises. Death penalty issues are inherently highly emotional. I have been a proponent of elimination of the death penalty for some time, and have some familiarity with the debate and how it affects proponents on both sides. In order to communicate, we must be able to see the feelings of our opponents before we can see beyond them.

 

All of us occasionally post without thinking. The link provided by amani shows this ruling is not an exception to Islam, but is supported by al-Baqarah 2:217 and authentic hadith. I will not disagree with your sacred texts on this site, but I will note that the direct impositions of the death penalty for this offense were made at a particular time for a particular circumstance and ask you to consider whether these circumstances have changed. Moreover, I would ask why the unambiguous examples of this death penalty in the hadith are not reflected in the Qur'an itself. Is it possible that one was meant to apply on a longer time frame, across more changes in society, than the other?

 

It seems this policy is supported by tafsir. I will attempt to thread the needle between respect for the scholar and disagreement with his reasoning. As ever, if my comments are inappropriate or fall beyond the rules here, I ask any readers to accept that such is inadvertent and ask the moderators to remove this post and its continuation.

 

The fatwa amani links uses argument from reason. While I respect the scholar who has composed this, I respectfully disagree with his argument. After looking at the link, I find the arguments less than compelling. Alternative arguments might be more compelling, but those given do not suffice. Because of post length limits, it will be necessary to break up my reading.

 

__________

 

The first and fourth arguments are from deterrence. In the first case, it is deterrence from casually accepting Islam, and in the fourth from casually rejecting it.

 

"1 – This punishment is a deterrent to anyone who wants to enter Islam just to follow the crowd or for hypocritical purposes ..."

 

"4 – ... If execution can serve as a deterrent to protect man-made systems, then it is more appropriate ..."

 

It has been adequately demonstrated statistically that the death penalty does not act as a deterrent. This argument has been at the center of much of the debate about the re-instituted death penalty ...

 

<break>

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... has been re-instituted in some states, and not in others, it is possible to compare the results. No deterrent effect has been seen in death-penalty states in comparison to non-death penalty states. From this I would say that the argument from deterrence relies on a false premise.

 

__________

 

The second argument is from total commitment.

 

"2 – ... required to be completely loyal and to support it and protect it against anything ..."

 

With all due respect to the scholar, humans will always have doubts, and never achieve perfect truth. Perhaps a religion can be perfect, but adherents will never achieve this ideal. A seeker's life is spent confronting doubts, and this is a requirement for spiritual growth in any religion. Muslims disagree, even scholars, else there would be only one madhab. I admire anyone who wishes to be completely loyal to truth. But it has been found that men of good conscience will disagree, sometimes on great issues. There must be a place where respect for our common humanity overcomes our wish to compel religious beliefs or we will descend into mutual slaughter.

 

__________

 

And now we come to the heart of this ruling. Here is where my disagreement is greatest.

 

The third argument is from censorship.

 

"3 – ... So they learn from him all the doubts, lies and fabrications ... remove obstacles from the path of those who are entering the faith."

 

I do not trust information about a man when it comes from his ex-wife. I do not believe the scholar gives non-muslims credit for being able to tell when an argument is made from sincerity or spite. Above all, I believe the proposed cure is far worse than the disease.

 

If non-muslims are likely to have doubts due to what they have heard from ex-muslims, how much greater their doubts will become when they hear of an ex-muslim who has been killed to prevent them from hearing the doubts of an ex-muslim? What were these arguments that were so devastating to Islam that the only solution was to impose the ultimate censorship? In removing arguments against Islam from public debate, they make them unanswerable.

 

In killing the apostate, they transform him into a martyr in the eyes of those opposed to Islam and raise grave doubts even among those who would otherwise be willing to give Islam an unbiased hearing.

 

As ever, in peace, Jesse

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subhana Allah,

 

how the kuffar make muslims look bad. while you lot go on preaching your peace no matter what rubbish the kuffar know that either your lying or your completely ignorant of your din.

 

 

the price for leaving Islam after you have accepted it is death. if the judge acts according to this then he would have acted according to the Islamic sharia.

 

Islam is the truth if leave it then there is no good left in your life.

 

your comment if this is Islam then Islam is wrong... well this IS Islam and Islam is the truth from the Lord of the worlds.

 

and i dont care which ever hippy denies it. Allah is free of all needs. Allah does not need anyone or anything. We are in need of Him and completely dependent on Him

 

This isn't the Kuffar making Islam look bad Fussilat, this is Islam showing a pretty violent and distasteful side of itself? Killing a man for simply changing his religion is ludricous, maniacal even, and should not be tolerated by any civilized culture. This is a sickening display of barbarity and dark-age justice.

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Actually, 3d, the answer is "42", and we're quite sure. Now the question, on the other hand, is a much more difficult thing to discern. But given a world-size computer and millions of years to do the calculation ...

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Please keep on topic. Feel free to start a new, separate topic to discuss whatever you feel like discussing, like the hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy, but not here please. Going off-topic is a violation of IF rules, and is not fair to the topic starter.

Thank you for helping us better organize IF.

 

Sidenote: People who come here looking for a way of life that is inclusive of every belief system and every behavior are foolish. If everything is acceptable then there is no need for guidance. If people experience a need for guidance then clearly not everything is acceptable. There will be no reconciliation between truth and falsehood.

 

Peace,

AS

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The link provided by amani shows this ruling is not an exception to Islam, but is supported by al-Baqarah 2:217 and authentic hadith. I will not disagree with your sacred texts on this site, but I will note that the direct impositions of the death penalty for this offense were made at a particular time for a particular circumstance and ask you to consider whether these circumstances have changed. Moreover, I would ask why the unambiguous examples of this death penalty in the hadith are not reflected in the Qur'an itself. Is it possible that one was meant to apply on a longer time frame, across more changes in society, than the other?

 

yes thank you taoist for your post, i will attempt to answer it the best i can.

 

In the Name of Allah the Most High.

 

All prasie be to Allah, the Mighty, the Wise, besides Whom there is no god worthy of worship.

May the peace and blessings of Allah be on Muhammed His slave and messenger, and upon the members of his house and his compainions and all the believers until the day of judgement.

 

1.) I will note that the direct impositions of the death penalty for this offense were made at a particular time for a particular circumstance and ask you to consider whether these circumstances have changed.

 

Allah says in the Holy Qur'an:

 

This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My favor upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. 5:3

 

about this ayah imam ibn Kathir says in his tafsir:

 

This, indeed, is the biggest favor from Allah to this Ummah, for He has completed their religion for them, and they, thus, do not need any other religion or any other Prophet except Muhammad . This is why Allah made Muhammad the Final Prophet and sent him to all humans and Jinn. Therefore, the permissible is what he allows, the impermissible is what he prohibits, the Law is what he legislates and everything that he conveys is true and authentic and does not contain lies or contradictions.

 

I say that our way of life is perfect. nothing can be added or taken away. Whatever laws are therein are whatever laws that will remain until the day of judgement.

Moreover, because of the finality of prophethood and revalation, Muhammed salallahu alayhi wa sallam was sent to all people and all times.

 

Allah says in the holy Qur'an:

 

Say: "O mankind! Verily, I am sent to you all as the Messenger of Allah -- to Whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth. None has the right to be worshipped but He. It is He Who gives life and causes death. So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, who believes in Allah and His Words, and follow him so that you may be guided.''7:158

 

next post.....

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and Imam Ahmad recorded that Ibn `Abbas said that the Messenger of Allah said,

 

I have been given five things which were not given to any Prophet before me, and I do not say it out of pride. I was sent to all mankind (their) black and white alike. Allah made me victorious by fright, (by His frightening my enemies) for a distance of one month's journey. The spoils of war are lawful for me, yet it was not lawful for anyone else before me. The earth has been made for me (and for my followers) a place for praying and a thing to perform purification with. I have been given the Shafa'ah (right of intercession), and I saved it for my Ummah on the Day of Resurrection. Therefore, the Shafa'ah will reach those who associate none with Allah in worship.

 

imam ibn Kathir says about this hadeeth:

 

This Hadith's chain of narration is suitable, but the Two Sahihs did not record it.

 

I say that Islam is today as it was during the life time of Muhammed salallahu alayhi wa sallam and as it will be until the day of judgement. It is for all of mankind and therefore outside the restrictions of times and events. So that the idea that certain things (in this case the death penalty for apostacy) can be changed because they are no longer relavent is clearly false.

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All of us occasionally post without thinking. The link provided by amani shows this ruling is not an exception to Islam, but is supported by al-Baqarah 2:217 and authentic hadith. I will not disagree with your sacred texts on this site, but I will note that the direct impositions of the death penalty for this offense were made at a particular time for a particular circumstance and ask you to consider whether these circumstances have changed. Moreover, I would ask why the unambiguous examples of this death penalty in the hadith are not reflected in the Qur'an itself. Is it possible that one was meant to apply on a longer time frame, across more changes in society, than the other?

 

 

2.)Moreover, I would ask why the unambiguous examples of this death penalty in the hadith are not reflected in the Qur'an itself.

 

Allah says in the Holy Qur'an:

 

Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger; but if you turn away, then the duty of Our Messenger is only to convey clearly64:12

 

Here we learn of the order to obey the messenger salallhu alayhi wa sallam and what his role is. To obey muhammed salallhu alayhi wa sallam is to obey Allah and his job was to teach the din in a clear manner, explain its rules, and clear any doubt.

 

The example of the death penalty is not unique. Salaah, for example, is mentioned many many times in the Qur'an, however to learn how it is actually preformed one must look to the sunnah. Wudu is another fine example or the cutting of the hand of the thief (it is the sunnah that gives a min value before the cutting can be implemented). excuse me fornot showing the evidence for the above, however if one requires it i will gladly post it up.

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Peace, Fusillat,

 

Don't worry too much if your answer doesn't meet the need, as we're all less than perfect. I've opened up a thread in the comments and suggestions forum asking for the post length limits to be relaxed. The need to stay within ~500 words makes this conversation unnecessarily disjointed.

 

I've seen the perfection ayah used in all kinds of situations, sometimes in a coherent fashion, and other times, it seems to me, as an attempt to cover an irrelevant context. I had an interesting discussion elsewhere once on why the perfection verse was taken out of its immediate context to begin with.

 

(Yusufali) 5:3 Forbidden to you (for food) are: dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and that on which hath been invoked the name of other than Allah; that which hath been killed by strangling, or by a violent blow, or by a headlong fall, or by being gored to death; that which hath been (partly) eaten by a wild animal; unless ye are able to slaughter it (in due form); that which is sacrificed on stone (altars); (forbidden) also is the division (of meat) by raffling with arrows: that is impiety. This day have those who reject faith given up all hope of your religion: yet fear them not but fear Me. This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. But if any is forced by hunger, with no inclination to transgression, Allah is indeed Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

 

My original question elsewhere, (not meaning to derail here), was why I should read this as anything other than a reference to dietary laws. I have to say the explanation I was given was somewhat incoherent, but as well as I can remember it was some combination of the idea that this was the final ayah added to the Qur'an and that it was common linguistic practice at the time to address multiple subjects simultaneously.

 

Oh yeah? Really! As I said, the explanation wasn't especially coherent. If he wasn't talking about what he was talking about, then how are we tell what he was talking about? Does the prophet need a prophet? Anyway, I ended up hanging that discussion on the hook. Someday maybe someone will be able to give an explanation that makes sense to me.

 

In the meantime, we were talking about the death penalty, or state killings. Execution as a means of stifling dissent is a time-honoured practice, but no longer a practice we're willing to countenance. It goes against the interests of creating a government of law. If obedience to law is merely a question of coercion rather than reason, the government is nothing more than a police state.

 

<break>

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But to return to the immediate context, you follow a chain of argument from the perfection ayah in order to "say that our way of life is perfect". Hold on a minute there. Is it okay for diseases to go uncured, to be satisfied with our present knowledge of the universe, to fail to act in the face of environmental hazards, to give up our means of instant communication across continents? None of these were any part of the way of life of Muhammad or his companions. There was no germ theory of medicine, no standard model in physics, no finite element analysis of global climate, no internet.

 

We have communities scattered through the US, mostly around Pennsylvania, Ohio and Indiana that follow through on rejection of these modern innovations. They are the (www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_en.wikipedia(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/wiki/Amish"]Amish[/url]. Great carpenters, and they make awesome (www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_en.wikipedia(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/wiki/Funnel_cake"]funnel cakes[/url]. But they are otherwise irrelevant to the outside society, exactly because they do not live in the same world.

 

I think you see the analogy I'm trying to construct. Methods for answering doubts in a world where communication was restricted to a small community, predominantly through the means of the spoken word, lack relevance today. Were it not for the internet, I would never have heard of this Afghan, even had he been executed to keep me from hearing of him. And so, perhaps this means of silencing his doubts would have been effective.

 

This thread is pretty clear evidence that it is not effective in today's society. The reactions of non-muslims on this thread speak a fairly clear message. Whatever benefit might accrue from censorship by execution needs to be measured against the damage that accrues when word of this ultimate censorship is spread.

 

As ever, Jesse

Edited by taoist

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(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_news.ft(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/cms/s/13e63f30-b933-11da-b57d-0000779e2340.html#"]Financial Times[/url]

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The point of this thread is...? With all due respect gill, this is an IslamIC forum, here we respect and want Shari'ah law. This is not something new, the punishment for Apostasy is DEATH. Muslims (unless the dislike Shari'ah or something, :D) have no problem with it. The only people who are angry here are the ones who imposed this "Democracy" on to Afghanistan, and the usual "reformeists/modernists".

 

 

 

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_63.175.194.25/index.php?cs=prn&ln=eng&QR=696&dgn=4&dgn=2"]Islam Q-A[/url]

 

:D

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