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Apostasy in Islam

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:D

 

Abdul Rahman, 41, has been charged with rejecting Islam, a crime under this country's Islamic laws. His trial started last week and he confessed to becoming a Christian 16 years ago. If convicted, he could be executed.

 

But prosecutor Sarinwal Zamari said questions have been raised about his mental fitness.

 

"We think he could be mad. He is not a normal person. He doesn't talk like a normal person," he told The Associated Press.

 

Moayuddin Baluch, a religious adviser to President Hamid Karzai, said Rahman would undergo a psychological examination.

 

"Doctors must examine him," he said. "If he is mentally unfit, definitely Islam has no claim to punish him. He must be forgiven. The case must be dropped."

 

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.11alive(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/news/usnews_article.aspx?storyid=77628"]source[/url]

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A Western diplomat in Kabul and a human rights advocate — both of whom spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the matter — said the government was desperately searching for a way to drop the case because of the reaction it has caused.

:D

 

Police arrested him last month after discovering him in possession of a Bible during questioning over a dispute for custody of his two daughters. Prosecutors have offered to drop the charges if Rahman converts back to Islam, but he has refused.

:D How DARE he have a Bible! :D

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:D

 

To make the stance clear, that I also spoke out on Political Front here a nice report from Le Monde (in English) about the teachings of Tariq Ramadan (a Muslim scholar that I like a lot) :

 

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.truthout(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/38/10132/printer"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.truthout(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/cgi-bin/artman/exe...8/10132/printer[/url]

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:D

 

I do not understand, the man is a christian. He apostatsized from Islam. He would not come back to Islam, he refused. Then he faces the death penalty....whats wrong here? Nothing.

 

The only ones who are upset here (and I repeat) are the Westerners who wanted a "liberal" and "democratic" Afghanistan and the modernist Muslims, the ruling stands.

 

 

:D

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in discussing these issues id like to remind members not to resort to insulting each other, + remember insulting is against he forum rules

22- insult Allah/Prophet/Islam/scholar/member: disable 10

(joker :D im glad you found 'my logic persuasive' )

Thank you. It's funny, considering your screen-name, but a lot of people on this American military site I post to complain that 'suits' are in charge.

 

Oh wait, that's Armani I'm thinking of...

 

(which brings us right back to Tariq Ramadan :D)

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I do not understand, the man is a christian. He apostatsized from Islam. He would not come back to Islam, he refused. Then he faces the death penalty....whats wrong here? Nothing.

 

Bear that in mind when anyone says that Islam is the fastest growing religion on the planet

 

Not suprising when you have it imposed on you at birth by parents and then can't change your mind or you die.

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:D

 

I do not understand, the man is a christian. He apostatsized from Islam. He would not come back to Islam, he refused. Then he faces the death penalty....whats wrong here? Nothing.

 

The only ones who are upset here (and I repeat) are the Westerners who wanted a "liberal" and "democratic" Afghanistan and the modernist Muslims, the ruling stands.

:D

Yes I suppose liberalism and democracy are terrible things.

 

P.S. To be honest I think I would actually kill for the sake of liberalist ideology :D just so you know the difference between us

Edited by 3dshocker

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Maybe he was never a true muslim, just born and raised by his parents and he just did what his parents told him to do like pray etc so he prob didn't have Islam truly in his heart.

 

Better to leave Islam than pretend to be a muslim right?

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:D

 

There is no corporal punishment for apostasy in the Holy Qur`an, it is stricltly between Allah (swt) and the apostate, Allah tells us:

 

Whoso disbelieves in Allah after he has believed, excepting the case of one who is forced to make a declaration of disbelief while his heart rests securely in faith, but one who opens his mind wide to disbelief; on him is Allah’s wrath and he shall have a grievous punishment. (16:106)

 

Those who believe, then disbelieve, then again believe, then disbelieve and thereafter go on increasing in disbelief, Allah will never forgive them, nor guide them to any way of deliverance. (4:137)

 

Some ignorant muallahs may have fabricated a punishment for apostasy but, the Holy Qur`an tells us that there is no capital punishment for apostasy. Wherever an apostate was exucuted in the time of prophet Muhammad :D he/she had created disorder between the Muslims.

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Peace, friends,

 

"I like your questions they are very thoughtful."

 

Why thanks, Fusillat. The color-coded 5:3 was well done also.

 

I also note you've mentioned how this "would be very recognizable to any scholar of Qur'an and arabic, and would be nearly impossible to say with any degree of accuracy in the english language." My first thought was how this can be reconciled with Islam being for all times and peoples. Surely we're not all going to become scholars of the Qur'an and arabic? Leave that for now, but consider starting a new thread on this issue.

 

I've read your objections to my Amish illustration, but fear you've misread my point. Regarding your suggestion that I am "misleading", I remind you that I am a Taoist. To lead or to follow is not the way. Anyone following me is not following the Tao. A step I have taken can never be taken again, by myself or by any other.

 

The basic issue is how modern communications have changed the debate. To do so, I brought up an example of a community which uses more primitive communications that might be more comparable to those of the time of Muhammad and his companions. I did not mean to suggest an analogy with their beliefs, but an analogy with how those beliefs are spread and maintained.

 

In insular societies such as these, insular in relation to rapid communication, a sure method of preventing wild tales from circulating is to stop them at their source. I suggest this insularity is reflected in the reasonings given in the two tafsir we've seen on the issue of apostasy in Islam. Both have cited the wish to prevent apostates from leading non-muslims away from Islam. The premise is that if their misrepresentations are not heard, no doubts will be sown. The conclusion is that the punishment will "remove obstacles from the path of those who are entering the faith." My position is that modern communications have sufficiently altered the premise to invalidate the conclusion.

 

It is no longer possible to prevent these misrepresentations from occurring by silencing the messenger ... because it is no longer possible to do so faster than news will spread. Today the scales have shifted to the point that news of the silencing will certainly outrun the silencing of the apostate. Thus, in silencing the apostate, addressable misrepresentations which might have been countered are replaced with an amorphous air of fear associated with Islam because of the silencing. The cure becomes worse than the disease, because it does not take into account our new vectors of transmission.

 

As ever, Jesse

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I read the article that was linked "explaining" the law, but at the end it asks the question "What are the sources for these laws?" then doesn't answer the question. So, I'll ask it.

 

What are the sources for these laws? Can someone point me to the Hadiths that say to kill all apostates?

 

Also, what would the Muslim reaction be if a country were to sentence someone to death for converting to Islam?

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Salamu Alaikum

 

First of All, we are not apologetic for this is the ruling and no one has enough knowledge to argue other wise. but I came to bring you a second view, from a muslim scholar, not me. Tareq As Suwaidan.

 

This is what he said (loosely)

 

He said that some rulings the Prophet had, were done for the sake of the delicate situation of Islam at that time. Some of the rulings he had back then have been abandoned because the situation,alhadmoulilah has been settled. The call to Islam was very weak and fragile and anything devestating would totally destroy the call to Islam (not Islam). The Polytheists had come up with an idea to join Islam in large numbers and then leave in large numbers to dishearten the true believers. After seeing this, the Prophet decreed that anybody who joins Islam then leaves will be killed. This first of all, made the people think serioulsy about joining Islam, and thats why we have so many pious Sahaba (RA). AS-Suwaidan said that we should abandon it because Islam has reached a powerful state and thus the ruling should be abandoned because Islam initially allowes people to do whatever they want, they will be judged at the end. This was at the Reviving Islamic Conference 2005.

 

Salamu Alaikum

Edited by alim_in_training

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So taoist,

 

and for the moment i am only discussing with you.

 

Based on the evidences i provided, we must come to an agreement that Islamic laws can not be changed. so the idea that this is outdated with regards to Islam is wrong. you may well consider it to be outdated but that would be your opinion and nothing to do with Islam. or do you have an objections to that? im sure you dont as you have shown to be intelligent, so i will continue with our discussion.

 

Peace, Fusillat,

 

I've taken this passage out of the train for special consideration. I want to look closely at the implications of the perfection verse. (Oh, and just out of curiousity, does your screen name have any special meaning?)

 

First I would like to say your presentation of 5:3 was the clearest I've seen. Bearing in mind the addition of vowel markings in the Qur'an, I would almost go so far as to say this might qualify as an acceptable bid'ah. I've often found myself lost in trying to unwind the different threads in an ayah, and this kind of marking would be useful for separating themes.

 

Now, as to your citations. Please remember to cite the sahih in which these traditions are found or specify that they are not found in the two sahih. When references are missing, I am always at pains to make an independent verification, and this can be quite time consuming. I have searched carefully and cannot find the first, that begins "Ibn Jarir recorded that Harun bin `Antarah said that his father said ... " From previous hadith you've cited outside the two sahih, I suspect the authenticity of this hadith may be controversial.

 

The second, or very close versions of the second, however, is easily found:

 

From Sahih Bukhari:

 

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/002.sbt.html#001.002.043"]Volume 1, Book 2, Number 43
[/url]

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/059.sbt.html#005.059.689"]Volume 5, Book 59, Number 689
[/url]

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/060.sbt.html#006.060.130"] Volume 6, Book 60, Number 130
[/url]

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/092.sbt.html#009.092.373"]Volume 9, Book 92, Number 373
[/url]

 

From Sahih Muslim:

 

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/043.smt.html#043.7153"]Book 043, Number 7153
[/url]

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/043.smt.html#043.7154"]Book 043, Number 7154
[/url]

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/043.smt.html#043.7155"] Book 043, Number 7155
[/url]

 

<break>

Edited by taoist

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So, at this point, I would say there is reason to believe the perfection portion of Surah 5:3 was interpreted as standing outside the immediate context during the time of the companions. I add a caution though, that each of the above seem to be referencing the same incident, and so cannot be considered independent.

 

Theoretically, this hadith could be ascribed to just one muslim relating the ayah out of context to just one jew, with various accounts of the jew's reaction. (I actually doubt this, but Occam's razor demands that I consider it.)

 

I am not asking you to accept Islam as perfect but to accept that we muslims regard it as perfect.

 

I've never suggested, to my knowledge, that muslims do not regard Islam as perfect. My questions arise when trying to determine what constitudes the essentials of that "religion", and what may be cultural accretion.

 

Consider, were every living muslim today to follow Islam perfectly, these questions would not arise. But because they do not and because I can find no living example of a muslim who does, I must consider the possibility that no muslim ever has. Naturally, I must seriously consider whether Islam is better described as a reified religion or a platonic ideal.

 

Now, in the context of this thread, the question is whether killing apostates can fall under the umbrella of the perfection verse. Your argument, or so it seems to me, is that because the Qur'an says that religion is perfected, and because the hadith say killing apostates is part of the religion, killing apostates must be perfect. Even assuming the Qur'an represents a perfect description of Islam, this does not follow. What is missing is the correlation between the religion described in the Qur'an and the religion described in the hadith.

 

I suppose I'm asking what part the Sunnah play in defining Islam.

 

As ever, Jesse

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:D

This is part of the act of the Sharia law (HADD), yes the majority of Islamic countries believe that the dealth penalty is the way, and some more contempart countries oppose it. But when its considered sharia theres really no way around it being the law of Allah (SWT). There isnt a verse in the Qur'an that explicitly states that there is an earthly penalty for apostasy, The Qur'an states that apostasy happens and that Allah despises it

 

 

"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. " (Sura 2:256)

"Those who believe, then reject faith, then believe (again) and (again) reject faith, and go on increasing in unbelief,- Allah will not forgive them nor guide them nor guide them on the way." (Sura 4:137)

"O ye who believe! if any from among you turn back from his Faith, soon will Allah produce a people whom He will love as they will love Him,- lowly with the believers, mighty against the rejecters, fighting in the way of Allah, and never afraid of the reproaches of such as find fault. That is the grace of Allah, which He will bestow on whom He pleaseth. And Allah encompasseth all, and He knoweth all things." (Sura 5:54)

 

It seems alot of people here are being confused by Islam and our laws and taking Islam the wrong way as in these arguements and denouncing Islam as if its a hateful cruel religion, many of you dont understand that different people have their own views and some take their religion more powerfully which to there is nothing wrong with that, and there are some christians, jews and other religions that do the same, but Islam has been in the news and media alot and always denounced u never see the good things that should be shown, some but not all arab countries may have the same views as Afghanistan and some dont, but the traditional Islamic law an apostate may be given up to three days while in incarceration to repent and accept Islam again and if not the apostate is to be killed without any reservations. Many countries look towards the death penalty as reasons to

This idea is against the freedom of conscience. How can it be right to offer an apostate the gallows when he has decided to leave Islam?

A faith which people maintain because of the fear of death cannot be genuine faith. This faith will be manifestly hypocritical chosen to deceive in order to save one's life.

It is contradictory to say on one hand "There is no compulsion in religion (Qur'an 2:256)"Whosoever will, let him believe and whosoever will, let him disbelieve (Qur'an 18:30)", and on the other to threaten to punish by death who renounces Islam and moves to reject Islam.

I dont know allahu allem to the guy who is in execution for the crime he commited, but to those of you who are saying we are evil and cruel people i think u need to read more up on us because Islam is not like that :D

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but to those of you who are saying we are evil and cruel people i think u need to read more up on us because Islam is not like that :D

oh no, I don't see the people as evil :D it's just the religion itself that I don't like. As a liberal, I tend to get upset when I hear about a religion that promotes the death over what a person believes.

 

and some take their religion more powerfully which to there is nothing wrong with tha

maybe not to you if you take the religion just as powerfully but to every person who is not a part of that religion, it is just plain wrong when it kills those who try to escape from it.

 

but the traditional Islamic law an apostate may be given up to three days while in incarceration to repent and accept Islam again and if not the apostate is to be killed without any reservations.

then traditional Islamic law is evil! (unless ofcourse you believe in it at which point you'd believe letting the man go would be doing evil) :D

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:D

 

I do not understand, the man is a christian. He apostatsized from Islam. He would not come back to Islam, he refused. Then he faces the death penalty....whats wrong here? Nothing.

 

The only ones who are upset here (and I repeat) are the Westerners who wanted a "liberal" and "democratic" Afghanistan and the modernist Muslims , the ruling stands.

:D

 

:D

 

 

:D

Edited by dzenan

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The only ones who are upset here (and I repeat) are the Westerners who wanted a "liberal" and "democratic" Afghanistan and the modernist Muslims, the ruling stands.

:D

 

I'd hazzard a guess that Abdul Rahman is pretty upset about the situation too.

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It seems alot of people here are being confused by Islam and our laws and taking Islam the wrong way as in these arguements and denouncing Islam as if its a hateful cruel religion, many of you dont understand that different people have their own views and some take their religion more powerfully which to there is nothing wrong with that,

 

So when somebody chooses not to be a muslim they could face the death penalty.

 

When a non-muslim prints a few cartoons that insult a muslim they too should be sentenced to death ?

 

That's why a lot of people see Islam as out of date, hypocritical and intolerant. I don't consider myself "confused" so please, tell me exactly what I'm "taking the wrong way?"

 

many of you dont understand that different people have their own views and some take their religion more powerfully which to there is nothing wrong with that,

 

And many of you don't understand that different people have their own views and some don't take anything from Islam, or indeed any religion, to which there is nothing wrong with that !

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does the Qur'an not say "there is no compulsion in religion"?

to me, that would mean everyone is free to convert into and out of Islam, and any other religion.

 

i have no idea from where in the Qur'an this came from, but I remember being told this in my old RE lessons at school.

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Salam

 

Ok , I would like to post something off the BBC forums related to this story.

 

"So this is how Islam keeps its adherrents? Wow. I hope they include a health warning in their initiation rites. How would Moslems react to Christians passing death sentences on all those who convert to Islam?"

 

"I think the international community should really be involved in this issue. We have to send a message that religous intolerence is not acceptable to the rest of the world. If Mr Rahman is executed for changing from Islam to Christianity, would Muslims then find it acceptable for us to execute Christians who become Muslims. I doubt it very much. How totally insane this whole story is."

 

"I am a converted Muslim to Christianity. Since my conversion, I've found Islam being extremely intolerant towards me. I was working voluntarily in a Christain Book shop where I was confronted by four young Muslims with extremely foul mouth who threatened to kill me. I was taken at the back of the shop for my safety."

 

 

This is the message that People around the world are getting about Islam. Do you really want to tarnish the reputation of Islam, for killing a man who changed his personal religious views? Is it worth it? what good can it bring other than shame and outcry from the international community.

This man's religion is his business, nobody elses, there is no compulsion in religion.

 

And yes i know about the hadith ordering to kill those who convert from Islam but that was most likely a temporary fix to a critical problem at the times of the prophet pbuh.

Edited by anthony19832005

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and second of all, this man probably never was a devout muslim.

He was probably just born into a muslim family and his parents made him pray etc and he prob never believed it from the heart.

So eventually he found a religion which he liked (those sugar-coated stories from christian missionairies that jesus loves u and world peace etc) and he converted to christianity. I dont think he was a muslim in the first place...at least not from the heart.

 

Peace

Edited by anthony19832005

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I've read your objections to my Amish illustration, but fear you've misread my point. Regarding your suggestion that I am "misleading", I remind you that I am a Taoist. To lead or to follow is not the way. Anyone following me is not following the Tao. A step I have taken can never be taken again, by myself or by any other.

 

In insular societies such as these, insular in relation to rapid communication, a sure method of preventing wild tales from circulating is to stop them at their source. I suggest this insularity is reflected in the reasonings given in the two tafsir we've seen on the issue of apostasy in Islam. Both have cited the wish to prevent apostates from leading non-muslims away from Islam. The premise is that if their misrepresentations are not heard, no doubts will be sown. The conclusion is that the punishment will "remove obstacles from the path of those who are entering the faith." My position is that modern communications have sufficiently altered the premise to invalidate the conclusion.

 

It is no longer possible to prevent these misrepresentations from occurring by silencing the messenger ... because it is no longer possible to do so faster than news will spread. Today the scales have shifted to the point that news of the silencing will certainly outrun the silencing of the apostate. Thus, in silencing the apostate, addressable misrepresentations which might have been countered are replaced with an amorphous air of fear associated with Islam because of the silencing. The cure becomes worse than the disease, because it does not take into account our new vectors of transmission.

 

As ever, Jesse

 

wa alayk,

 

I point out to you taoist, that when we make statements trying to presuade we are infact attempting to lead others to our point of view.

 

It seems that you have misunderstood the term "tasfir". A tasfir is the sience of explaining the Qur'an. The most famous of these is (www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.tafsir(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/"]Tafsir Ibn Kathir[/url] , however, there are many. What we have from Q&A is a fatwa or leagal ruling. And the bottom bits is his opinion, i am not saying they are wrong or right. The second is from a shia source. While you are free to read it and regard what they say as "Islamic" opinion, i would remind you that their religion is very diffrent from the majority. I would speak against them in stronger terms however i dont think thats allowed on this forum.

 

We know in the din of Islam that everyones opinion may be rejected or accepted except that of the prophet salallahu alayhi wa sallam.

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So this shaykh has put his opinion forward that this is a means to stop the spreading of lies against the din of Islam keeping people away. You say that because you are sitting in the USA and that im in the UK disscussing an event that has not yet taken place in afghanistan that this must "clearly" be wrong.

 

I will tell you some facts, and i think i am entitled to say because i am a convert (originally from USA now residing in UK) and many of my friends are converts from usa, uk and aussie land. We are aware of this rule before we convert. we submit to it like all the other laws. Therefore i believe that the only person who hesitates to enter Islam because of this was not inclined to Islam in the first place ( i mean all you lot who said that you would never become muslim after hearing this.). So this coming to light doesnt prevent people from entering but it might keep people back who have not resolved to enter the din fully.

 

Apostates are filled with more hate for muslims and Islam than all christains jews sikhs hindus and dare i say taoist (bit of humour there) put together. and because of their knowledge of the din they are in a better place to twist and mislead and cause people to leave the din of truth. while many groups attack Islam, their words resonate very little with muslims because they lack something that can not be obtained through the causal reading of texts. moreover, if a christian who is inclined to Islam runs into this person and asks why did you leave Islam? His words would be a strong deterient for that christain.

 

in conclusion i say that while we have heard of this man we have not heard him speak. While we have heard of his refusal to return to the din of Allah, we have not heard his fabrications that he must employ to justify such a crime. and therefore killing him is less harmful than letting him live even in the age of instant communication. infact, while thinking about it, it might be more relavent today than anytime in the past due to the speed at which his lies could spread. so that now the internet has become a case against him rather than for him.

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