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Apostasy in Islam

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So a man (or woman) born as a Muslim does not have the choice of what religion he (or she) wants to belong to?

He (or she) cannot decide for him (her) self?

 

Is this for real? You have to be kidding! :D

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Now, as to your citations. Please remember to cite the sahih in which these traditions are found or specify that they are not found in the two sahih. When references are missing, I am always at pains to make an independent verification, and this can be quite time consuming. I have searched carefully and cannot find the first, that begins "Ibn Jarir recorded that Harun bin `Antarah said that his father said ... " From previous hadith you've cited outside the two sahih, I suspect the authenticity of this hadith may be controversial.

 

 

So, at this point, I would say there is reason to believe the perfection portion of Surah 5:3 was interpreted as standing outside the immediate context during the time of the companions. I add a caution though, that each of the above seem to be referencing the same incident, and so cannot be considered independent.

 

Theoretically, this hadith could be ascribed to just one muslim relating the ayah out of context to just one jew, with various accounts of the jew's reaction. (I actually doubt this, but Occam's razor demands that I consider it.)

 

 

wa alayk taoist,

 

my user name is the name of the 41st surah of the Qur'an, Surat ul Fussilat. and also my webpage is named fussilat(contact admin if its a beneficial link) that too having been named after the surah. As far as the addition of vowel markings, this can not be considered a bid'ah because it niether adds or subtracts from the meaning. it just aides people in reading. many native arab readers do not need them and often write with out them.

 

Now as far as the hadeeth go. not all of the sahih hadeeth are found in the two sahihs. there are many collections of hadeeth and they are used as evidence in making legal rulings. to limit our judgements based on the work of imam bukhari or that of imam muslim would mean to through a very large portioin of the sunnah out the window. i mean which muslim would outright reject a hadeeth from the muwatta of imam malik? which was the very first book of writen hadeeth and before imam bukhari compiled his work it was regarded as the most authentic book after the Qur'an.

 

Now to the hadeeth that i cited first. my apologies for not writing the source, i was trying to write over a wide range of subjects and simply forgot. I can only complain to Allah the Most High of my forgetfulness. The hadeeth can be found in the (www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.tafsir(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/default.asp?sid=5&tid=13252"]Tasfir of Imam Ibn Kathir[/url] under this part of the ayah.

As for the other hadeeth they have been clasified as sahih and therefore, unless you be a scholar of hadeeth, unaproachable. also keep in mind the hadeeth in this case are merely supporting evidences, the ayah is the proof.

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can you interpret the hadeeth fussilat?

 

do you stick rigidly to them in the way youre sticking rigidly to your OPINION that this man should be executed?

 

your reply would be greatly appreciated.

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I suppose I'm asking what part the Sunnah play in defining Islam.

 

taoist, i intend on ignoring what you said above this, it seems to me that you are "thinking out loud". unless you want me to comment on any thing in paticular?

 

so what part does the sunnah play? i suppose i already answered this question above.

 

Allah says,

 

Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger; but if you turn away, then the duty of Our Messenger is only to convey clearly 64:12

 

Obeying the messenger and following him are obligitory. This ayah also proves that the sunnah does not contradict the Qur'an because how can you obey someone by not following what they say? in the legal system the diffrence between a comand direct from Allah and a comand through the mouth of His messenger is very small. the former is said to be "fard" meaning obligitory and the later "wajib" meaning mandatory. and the companions did not make a diffrence between the two in the way that they carried out both of them.

 

muslims must carry out the Qur'an and the Sunnah. this is why we regard ourselves to be ahle sunnah wal jamaat, or the people of the sunnah and the jamaat.

Edited by Fussilat

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Greetings, Ezkerraldean,

 

Probably the two most cited ayat in the Qur'an on discussion boards are the "(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/005.qmt.html#005.003"]perfection[/url]" ayah 5:3, and the "(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html#002.256"]no compulsion[/url]" ayah 2:256. You can see three translations at the above link. There is also a searchable database of both the Qur'an and hadith there.

 

YUSUFALI: Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.

 

As ever, Jesse

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wa alayk,

 

I point out to you taoist, that when we make statements trying to presuade we are infact attempting to lead others to our point of view.

 

Assalamu alaikum, Fussilat,

 

The premise is faulty, I believe, as I am not trying to persuade, or at least I hope I am not. I would consider any attempt to force another to share my Tao an act of violence, and abhor it. I suggest that this impression may be partly true, as I'm certainly not perfect, but mostly projection. So let me be clear. I do not wish any to make my thoughts their own.

 

"There is no taoist."

 

It seems that you have misunderstood the term "tasfir". A tasfir is the sience of explaining the Qur'an. The most famous of these is Tafsir Ibn Kathir , however, there are many. What we have from Q&A is a fatwa or leagal ruling. And the bottom bits is his opinion, i am not saying they are wrong or right. The second is from a shia source. While you are free to read it and regard what they say as "Islamic" opinion, i would remind you that their religion is very diffrent from the majority. I would speak against them in stronger terms however i dont think thats allowed on this forum.

 

Thanks for your thoughts. Indeed, I was concentrating on the "bottom bits", the reasoning rather than the ruling, and so considered the writing as an explanation of Qur'an and hadith. So naturally I named it tafsir rather than fatwa in my thoughts, as reflected in my comments.

 

As far as sectarian differences here, the rules are clear, I believe. No, it's not allowed. Nor did I fail to note your statement that you did not originally read past your realization that the source was Shia.

 

In the interest of harmony, I'd like to mention that though there are major differences between sunni and shia, almost all relate to the position of the imamate, and relatively few to actual differences in doctrine. Those who read Islamic writings with a sharp eye for references to Ali and the ahlu bayt will know when it is likely they are seeing a major divergence in Islamic opinion.

 

We know in the din of Islam that everyones opinion may be rejected or accepted except that of the prophet salallahu alayhi wa sallam.

 

Now I've got to go seaching again. I'm sure I've seen hadith where Muhammad was asked about some specific whether he was speaking as the prophet or as a fallible man, and he answered that he was not speaking as the prophet. Certainly, the "honey" traditions suggest that he could be mistaken and later corrected.

 

As ever, Jesse

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taoist, i intend on ignoring what you said above this, it seems to me that you are "thinking out loud". unless you want me to comment on any thing in paticular?

 

Peace, Fusillat,

 

You should never feel compelled to answer every last bit of my long, drawn-out, and often rambling thoughts. Pick any thought that resonates and go with it. It's okay, I won't be offended.

 

:D

 

As ever, Jesse

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Greetings, friends,

 

Well it does look like this issue is moving toward a crisis. As I was checking out commentary, I ran into an analysis of (www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.bloggernews(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/2006/03/four-options-for-afghanistan-abdul.html"] Four Options For Afghanistan (Abdul Rahman)[/url] on the Blogger News Network. The author makes a case for following the lead of The Council on American-Islamic Relations, (www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.cair-net(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/default.asp?Page=articleView&id=2066&theType=NR"]CAIR Calls For Release Of Afghan Christian[/url]. I have to agree that if this issue is to be resolved peacefully, it would be best if the solution came from within Islam.

 

As ever, Jesse

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i dont know what to say. I dont think its fair that a person is born into a certain religion. As ive said before he was probably not a muslim, i dont think he made a choice to be muslim in the first place, he just blindly followed what his family and society were doing. There is no compulsion in religion and it seems that he was forced to act like a muslim since he was a little kid.

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subhana Allah,

 

how the kuffar make muslims look bad. while you lot go on preaching your peace no matter what rubbish the kuffar know that either your lying or your completely ignorant of your din.

 

the price for leaving Islam after you have accepted it is death. if the judge acts according to this then he would have acted according to the Islamic sharia.

 

Islam is the truth if leave it then there is no good left in your life.

 

your comment if this is Islam then Islam is wrong... well this IS Islam and Islam is the truth from the Lord of the worlds.

 

and i dont care which ever hippy denies it. Allah is free of all needs. Allah does not need anyone or anything. We are in need of Him and completely dependent on Him

Lovely, you give the rest of the world more and more amunition to wage more wars against you and soon, when the west boots all muslims out of there in a Nazi type fasion the "victims" will be asking why.

 

I pitty the true innocent Muslims who had nothing to do with this but are paying the price for what you have done.

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the price for leaving Islam after you have accepted it is death. if the judge acts according to this then he would have acted according to the Islamic sharia.

Islamic Sharia ? or interpretation of Islamic Sharia? :D

BTW, If I lived under Sharia, I would have been dead since I'm an X Muslim.

 

:D

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Islamic Sharia ? or interpretation of Islamic Sharia? :D

BTW, If I lived under Sharia, I would have been dead since I'm an X Muslim.

 

:D

 

 

 

:D :D :D :D really? try living under sharia......hmmm u wont die unless u kill urself.

 

 

 

peace and love

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:D :D :D :D really? try living under sharia......hmmm u wont die unless u kill urself.

 

 

 

peace and love

I thought that's the law under sharia...kill the apostates, I'm one but I wouldn't be harmed?? :D

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Quote from someone: "The point of this thread is...? With all due respect gill, this is an IslamIC forum, here we respect and want Shari'ah law."

 

I doubt that this individual has been deemed the official spokesperson for many Muslims on this site who do not want Shari'ah law.

 

Quote from someone else: "Bear that in mind when anyone says that Islam is the fastest growing religion on the planet. Not suprising when you have it imposed on you at birth by parents and then can't change your mind or you die."

 

I think this is quite true. When you are born into a religion and threatened with being killed if you should try to leave, I think you've got a rock-solid retention plan. :D

 

If Abdur Rahman loses his life for his confession of Christ, he will be martyred, not killed.

 

Edit: Insult directed at Allah has been removed

Edited by Allah's Slave

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:D

 

 

Abdur Rehman, you seem to be a christian, how do you view the following?

 

 

Deuteronomy 13:6-9 "If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying: Let us go and worship other gods (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other, or gods of other religions), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people."

 

Romans 1:20-32 (from the New Testament) "20. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

21. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

22. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools

23. and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

24. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.

25. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.

26. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.

27. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.28. Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.

29. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips,

30. slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents;

31. they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless.

32. Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them."

 

 

Now the difference between you and us is that you don't follow your lord and we do follow our Lords commands!

 

w/salaam

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:D :D :D :D really? try living under sharia......hmmm u wont die unless u kill urself.

 

 

 

peace and love

 

Or apparently if you convert to Christianity. The guy in Afghanistan is going to be sentenced to death for converting to Christianity. The muslims and their clerics are telling people to rip him apart if he is free'd. Hopefully we can fly him to the US, because Edit: insult against Muslims removed

Edited by Allah's Slave

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Now I've got to go seaching again. I'm sure I've seen hadith where Muhammad was asked about some specific whether he was speaking as the prophet or as a fallible man, and he answered that he was not speaking as the prophet. Certainly, the "honey" traditions suggest that he could be mistaken and later corrected.

 

I believe you are reffering to the incident before a war, I think Uhud. The Prophet(PBUH) was asked by a companion if the position he had chosen for the war was revealed to him or he is acting on his own behalf. The Prophet(PBUH) said that this is the position he chose. The Sahaba then said that maybe then we should move to a place where I think we would be better suited for this war. The Prophet(PBUH) replied in the positive. This is what I remember, may Allah forgive me if I am wrong. I will find the exact wording and Source soon Insha'Allah.

 

Salamu Alaikum

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I just realised, this is about attacking Islam think about it, they're making a big deal about this guy to attack Islam, how many people have died in afghanistan? countless, its always when its concerning christians do they make s fuss about this crap. The poor poor innocent christians :D .

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no its being done because it sells papers, controversy always sells. And yes if its a legitimate issue its worth being debated and discussed. I think this is an important issue of our times. But are there more urgent problems than this? Absolutely!

Edited by anthony19832005

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Thanks alim! Yes, that sounds like the hadith I'm thinking of, and I would very much like to find it again. Of course, it's hard for me to remember, because I read them by searching, and quite often what I find isn't what I set out to look for. For instance, I was just checking traditions about Noah this evening because I was thinking about starting a thread to see what muslims think of the flood story. (Heaven forbid I might contradict the Sunnah without knowing it, considering some of the rules here.) And guess what I ran across ...

 

WHOA!!! TIME OUT!!! The post-length limits have been dropped! Thank you, AS!!!!

 

Okay, anyway, this hadith is actually longer, but I'm only posting the part that's relevant here.

 

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/073.sbt.html#008.073.194"]Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 73, Number 194[/url]

 

The Prophet said, "Ikhsa (you should be ashamed) for you can not cross your limits." 'Umar said, "O Allah's Apostle! Allow me to chop off his neck." Allah's Apostle said (to Umar). "Should this person be him (i.e. Ad-Dajjal) then you cannot over-power him; and should he be someone else, then it will be no use your killing him."

 

I'm not sure exactly how relevant this tradition would be to executing apostates, but he's referring to a young man approaching puberty, Ibn Saiyad, who says to Muhammad that some of his companions are liars and calls Muhammad the "Apostle of the unlettered ones." But this certainly seems to me to be a direction to leave the killing over beliefs to god, as any attempt to exact truth by execution using humans, even one who would one day succeed Muhammad as a rightfully-guided caliph (I think this is the same Umar, anyway), is either impossible or useless.

 

As ever, Jesse

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Salamu Alaikum

 

Actually Jesse, the hadith you are reffering to is when Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) thought he found the Dajjal, and Umar wanted to kill him, but the Prophet said (PBUH) if he is the Dajjal you can't kill him, and if he isn't you are killing an innocent person.

 

Nice Try though

 

By the way the Dajjal is the great liar, who will cause great trials (fitna) in the future for mankind and lead many astray. That's why Umar (RA) wanted to kill him.

 

Salamu Alaikum

Edited by alim_in_training

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Salamu Alaikum

 

Actually Jesse, the hadith you are reffering to is when Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) thought he found the Dajjal, and Umar wanted to kill him, but the Prophet said (PBUH) if he is the Dajjal you can't kill him, and if he isn't you are killing an innocent person.

 

Nice Try though

 

By the way the Dajjal is the great liar, who will cause great trials (fitna) in the future for mankind and lead many astray. That's why Umar (RA) wanted to kill him.

 

Salamu Alaikum

 

Wa alaikum,

 

Nice try? I think you're giving me a bit too much credit. But thanks, anyway.

 

I was actually looking for flood stories, searching under "noah" and because of current events, it caught my eye. Oddly enough, now that you mention it, I ended up seeing hadith that said Muhammad knew the dajjal was blind in the right eye, and that it looked like a "grape" ... but maybe that was from later revelations.

 

That was the same Umar though? As in Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman and Ali?

 

Anyway, I've been going back and forth on this story across atheist, christian, shia and sunni boards, and it's really interesting to see how the opinions differ. The atheists think he's nuts either way, the christians are all up in arms, the shias are calling the sunni clerics kaffir and the sunnis ... well, I guess that's pretty much what I'm seeing here. Honestly, it's enough to make your head spin. Oh yeah, and there was one random sufi who was busiily trying to explain how all the rest of us were wrong.

 

I need to keep a scorecard.

 

From other incidents, including a very famous case involving a Cuban boy here in Florida, the international law is pretty clear. If they boot Rahman out of Afghanistan, he'll lose all rights to his kids. And that's what it'll come down to, I think. No way can Bush withstand the pressure to use any means to keep this guy from losing his head. The germans are almost as adamant and the european union is too.

 

The execution can't go ahead without Karzai's signature, and if he signs his government will have its pursestrings cut. What a mess.

 

Anyway, I think I'm just gonna kick back and grab some popcorn. But if you can find that other tradition with the war decision, I'd still appreciate a link. I want to study that one again.

 

As ever, Jesse

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From the abdul rahman "have your say" section of bbc website:

 

"Islam is a religion of peace. Its followers submit to the religion of peace and in this, their body, heart and soul makes an agreement with the Creator to live by the doctrines of peace.

 

What one believes to be true is the truth to him. When a person doesn't believe that he is a Muslim, he ceases to be one. There is no way any law in the world can make him believe what he chooses not to because submission comes from within, as does peace.

 

Aisha, Karachi "

 

I Couldn't Agree More!

Edited by anthony19832005

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Here is what Average Afghans say about Abdul rahman:

 

"According to Islamic law he should be sentenced to death because God has clearly stated that Christianity is forbidden in our land," says Mohammed Qadir, another worshipper.

 

>>> I wonder where ""God has clearly stated that Christianity is forbidden in our land"" Cause i cant find it

 

 

 

 

"What is wrong with Islam that he should want to convert?" asks an agitated Abdul Zahid Payman.

 

"The courts should punish him and he should be put to death."

 

>>>> These people should learn about Freedom of Religion a little bit in my opinion. And read my above quote maybe.

Edited by anthony19832005

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many scholars differ on this and there is no ayah in the quran that specifically says that a murtad should be killed.

would'nt Allah deal with them in the hereafter,where is the logic in killing them they will die one day and face Allah and on that day it's every man or women for themselves.

There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower-this ayah can be used in the same context yall are using those other ayahs none of them r specific to a murtad.

all i hear in the quran is he who rejecth faith and how Allah will deal with them and those accept faith and the blessings they will recieve so leave the punishment and the judgement to Allah ,i'm a 100% sure that you ppl are not a 100% sure about this because even great schlors of Islam were not

 

i'm a muslim and i'm telling yall that your not making much sense,

if christians killed all their people who converted to Islam then yall would be argueing in the same way the nonmuslims are arguing on this topic HYPOCRISY i believe Allah is just and i believe that if i as his creation can see this is unjust than he most certainly can.

again many scholars differ on this, Allah is just and Allah knows best and Allah will deal with the people who have abandoned their religion for this life is'nt that what hell and heaven are for.

i'm of to bed

salaam

Edited by arawelo16

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