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CHTHON

Do You Think Women Should Have Equal Rights?

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just to answer darlas question briefly.

 

i find it doesnt really help when someone asks a question that all replies seem to get defensive, even though its great to see people defending Islam, the question was clear that she realized the difference between Islamic law and what so called Islamic countries portray as shariah laws.

 

and when it comes to sensitive issues regarding the treatment of women in the ME as well as many other Islamic countries, we prefer to shy away from it and paint an ideal of what it should be.

 

i've lived in the ME, it concerns me the cultural traditions and practices which effect women, and which place women as second class citizens. with regards to education, work, marriage and so on. none of which is Islamically based. yet, we dont really voice our concerns over this. probably because the vast majority of us are in many was not affected by it or dont realize it happens, but we do need to voice our concerns, and get clued up on these issues, especially muslim women. when you read the Islamic history and the importance and value women had at the time it makes you wonder how mixed up some cultural values with regards to women really are.

 

and about the rape issue, just because less are reported in the ME doesnt mean it is any better, the problem with the ME is that when a woman is raped it is kept secret and not talked about let alone even reported to he police. which is a huge problem, because 1, the rapist is never found and can go and commit similar acts on other women and 2. the poor woman whose raped doesnt receive any help in dealing with what has happened to her.

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PropellerAds
:D

 

You cant argue with someone like CHTHON. He just keeps repeating the same nonsense over and over again. Have you ever lived in any Muslim countries?

I repeat myself because you fail at answering the question.

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:D

Why would you punish gay poeple have sex in a public square? And not in private?

w/salaam

I am not a Muslim, the way I was brought up is other religions are for pagans and heretics. In other words they are sins and according to our religion, technically, this is forbiddon. I distanced myself from all that, but if I was to follow it to the book I should be allowed to have Muslims and Budists alike strung up and killed for not praticing my faith.

 

You don't agree with this, you think it is wrong.

 

Well perhaps homosexuals don't agree with you wanting to hang/castraight them. What they do in the privacy of their own home is none of your concern. How can you expect to be taken seriously (Muslims as a whole) when you are bigoted and biased towards most of the world? Did I even mention that you condone murdering people for not praticing your faith? That's what it is if you concider killing homosexuals acceptable.

 

I was in a conference meeting yesterday between a very Prominant American Congressman and the top Spokes person for Hollands rulling political party. When I listened to them, they impression I got was that both Europe and the US no longer have any respect for Muslim countries. Not because of 9/11, no but because of the religious fundimentalism. They now simply want to unilaterally do what they want around the middle east without consulting those nations, becuase they feel the people there are not rational. I wonder what gave them that idea.

 

And these were the people calling the shots in the west, so I'd be pretty concerned about it if I were you.

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just to answer darlas question briefly.

 

i find it doesnt really help when someone asks a question that all replies seem to get defensive, even though its great to see people defending Islam, the question was clear that she realized the difference between Islamic law and what so called Islamic countries portray as shariah laws.

 

and when it comes to sensitive issues regarding the treatment of women in the ME as well as many other Islamic countries, we prefer to shy away from it and paint an ideal of what it should be.

 

i've lived in the ME, it concerns me the cultural traditions and practices which effect women, and which place women as second class citizens. with regards to education, work, marriage and so on. none of which is Islamically based. yet, we dont really voice our concerns over this. probably because the vast majority of us are in many was not affected by it or dont realize it happens, but we do need to voice our concerns, and get clued up on these issues, especially muslim women. when you read the Islamic history and the importance and value women had at the time it makes you wonder how mixed up some cultural values with regards to women really are.

 

and about the rape issue, just because less are reported in the ME doesnt mean it is any better, the problem with the ME is that when a woman is raped it is kept secret and not talked about let alone even reported to he police. which is a huge problem, because 1, the rapist is never found and can go and commit similar acts on other women and 2. the poor woman whose raped doesnt receive any help in dealing with what has happened to her.

When I was a kid my parents lived near a Muslim family from KZA. The women one day got sexually assulted by a group of men. When her husband found out he tried to kill her in the hospital. He ended up in Jail and she later died of the wounds he caused her.

 

From what I was told, his reason for doing so was because she had slept with other men. Apparently in the news they said the nurses hurd her trying to explain to him it wasn't her fault but he wouldn't believe her. He said she was an adulteress.

 

Hmmm.

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Salaam,

 

Thank you NoorAlHuda for your reply. Am I right in saying al-Noor is arabic for women?

 

It is good to have the perspective of a woman who lives in the ME.

 

and when it comes to sensitive issues regarding the treatment of women in the ME as well as many other Islamic countries, we prefer to shy away from it and paint an ideal of what it should be.

 

I think that's human nature all over the world. We try and remove the splinter from our neighbour's eye without fisrt trying to shift the log from our own.

 

In your opinion, do you think a state that did impose full-proper Sharia'h law would still have the societal problems towards women? Whilst some of problems in today's ME are caused by bad legislation, what part do you think societal attitudes have? Can these be overturned by Sharia'h law?

 

Peace and Love,

 

DARLA

 

ps. CTTHON, please tell me if you object, but may I give you some advice? It comes in two parts. The first is that 100% criticism is as unconvincing s 100% praise, in order to be convicing it is best to mix the two as it is then clear you have made a balanced opinion. The second is a debating trick called SExI. S- statement, Ex-example, I-inform. If you are trying to make an arguement it is best to have all three as it creates internal logic. For example: 'The current situation in the ME for women in bad.(statement). For example, the law if a woman gets raped means she could be prosecuted for adultary (example). This is bad because it is bad for the woman as it leads to the underreporting of rapes and also bad for Islam as it leads to a negative popular perception (Inform).

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Thank you NoorAlHuda for your reply. Am I right in saying al-Noor is arabic for women?

 

darla,

 

no noor actually means light, NoorAlHuda is the light of guidance, it's actually my oldest daughters name :D

 

 

 

It is good to have the perspective of a woman who lives in the ME.

 

I dont actually currently live in the ME, but i did when i was younger, and travel there pretty much on a yearly basis for holidays and to visit family.

 

In your opinion, do you think a state that did impose full-proper Sharia'h law would still have the societal problems towards women? Whilst some of problems in today's ME are caused by bad legislation, what part do you think societal attitudes have? Can these be overturned by Sharia'h law?

 

tough question, i do beleive when shariah law is PROPERLY leading a society, then the issues which women suffer from, such as arranged marriaged, domestic abuse, sexual harassment, rape and so on, will also be dealt with, it might take time for people to accept because the problem in many of these countries is that they are goverend by man made laws that are tribal and simple based on tradition and culture and nothing to do with religion. one example which i was discussing before with a friend was, that her family comes from a very big tribe in our home country and own a lot of land there, so now they decided they would share out the land and sell it and give their profits to the rest of the tribe. i asked how this money from the land was going to be shared out, and according to the tribal law the only people who get any share in the land or money are the male relatives only, all the women get nothing. now this is purely a tribal law, if this was actually sorted out under shari'ah law then it would be faily shared out to both sexes. and the problem is that when people see the way some muslims behave or how 'islamic' countries behave they automatically assume it's the done thing Islamically, when in most cases it is nothing to do with religion at all.

 

sorry for waffling!, but yes i think over time if shariah law was properly implemeted, then womens issue would be dealt with fairly.

 

CHTHON,

 

that story is incredibly sad, but you cannot base your judgement of people on what one idiot has done. the way i prefer to deal with people is as individuals, we're all different, even when we follow the same religion we are still different, just because he tried to kill his wife for being a victim of rape doesnt mean that every muslim guy is going to react this way. take darlas advice on how to discuss issues properly, because your statement is like me saying, i saw a christian guy beat up his wife, therefore all christian men must beat up their wives. it is illogical and no one is going to take u seriously with arguments that have no depth.

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:D and Peace

 

I always try to voice my disgust at the way women are treated in Muslim countries, to both Muslims and non-Muslims. Again, it is a sin not only because it's unislamic, but because it gives Islam a black eye. However, the media does inflame the misconceptions a bit.

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Salaam,

 

I can see your point (about making the issue bigger), I think it is probably worth it however if it stops the problem. It is good to hear that you speak out.

 

Peace and Love,

 

DARLA

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Dear Darla

 

Did you know dear Darla that there is a sin even bigger than homosexuality?

Regards

 

Aboo Uthmaan

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:D

 

the ones who said that women are opressed under Islam dont know a single aspect of Islam. youve just taken some story about a human being who happens to be a muslim, and said all of isdlam must be like that. go and learn Islams teachings rather than making up fairy tales about what Islam says. stop babbling.

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Salaam,

 

two things.

 

1. Muslim Mujahid, I suggest you re-read my posts. I have repeatedly drawn a line between how women should be treated under Islam and how they are treated under its current application in countries which label themselves 'Islamic'.

 

2.

Dear Darla

 

 

QUOTE(aboo_uthmaan [at] Mar 22 2006, 05:20 PM)

Did you know dear Darla that there is a sin even bigger than homosexuality?

 

Regards

 

Aboo Uthmaan

 

sounds terribly cryptic :D

 

Under Islam that would be shirk? (I that's the word for polytheism).

Thats my guess, if I'm wrong I'm sure you'll enlighten me, look forward to response.

 

Peace and Love,

 

DARLA

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Equal rights in some areas, more rights in other areas, less rights in other areas.

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Dear Darla

 

Yes, you are right, so not that cryptic after all... Ha!

 

So the rights of the Creator come before the rights of the Creation, so this leads me to ask you 2 questions:

 

1) Do you know what the rights of the Creator are?

2) Do you know what the rights of the Creation are if they fulfil the rights of the Creator?

 

Regards

 

Aboo Uthmaan

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Salaam,

 

1. The creator needs no rights. He is all-powerful, all-knowing. Rights only apply when there are equals and so rights need to be balanced. the creator has no need of rights as He has no equals.

 

2. slightly unsure as to what you mean by this question. Sorry.

 

Can I just double check that this is staying on topic?

 

Peace and Love,

 

DARLA

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Don't agree with 1.

 

Are rights on a need basis or deserve basis?

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Salaam

 

the concept of rights is innately linked with the concept of moral equality.

 

We as humans do not consider ourselves morally equal with animals so we do not speak with them on a 'rights' basis.

 

I do not consider myself to be morally equal to God, therefore the rights issue is redundant.

 

Peace and Love,

 

DARLA

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Dear Darla

 

The answers to the questions are:

 

1) That they (the creation) worship Him alone without giving him any partners or ascribing any children to Him.

 

2) If they (the creation) do that then it is their right that they are not punished, thus, they will gain entry to Paradise.

 

The above is what our Prophet (sall-Allaahu 'alayhi wa sallam) said in a famous hadeeth, and Allaah created us to worship Him, as He says in the Qur'aan, since He created us for this purpose then it is His right that we fulfil this purpose, the purpose of our creation, however, He is not in need of our worship and this will be highlighted at the end of this post in which I will post one chapter from the Qur’aan, but what is worship?

 

Shaykh-ul-Islaam ibn Taymiyyah (d.728H) said:

 

"Worship (al-'Ibaadah) is obedience to Allaah by following that which He ordered upon the tongues of His Messengers.â€

 

And:

 

"Worship (al-'Ibaadah) is a comprehensive term covering everything that Allaah loves and is pleased with – whether sayings, or actions, outward and inward." (Majmoo-ul-Fataawaa, 10/149)

 

Imaam ibn Kathir (d.774H) said:

 

"And worship (al-'Ibaadah) is obedience to Allaah by acting upon what He commands, and abandoning what He forbids; and this is the reality and essence of Islaam. And the meaning of Islaam is: istislaam (submission and surrender) to Allaah – the Most High – along with the utmost compliance, humility, and submissiveness to Him." (Tafseerul-Qur'aanil-'Adtheem, 7/402)

 

To read more about the concept of worship in Islaam refer to the following link:

 

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.qss(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/archives/uboodiyah/toc.html"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.qss(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/archives/uboodiyah/toc.html[/url]

 

Allaah (subhaanahu wa ta’aala) said:

 

“Say (O Muhammad): ‘He is Allaah, (the) One.

 

Allaah-us-Samad (The Self-Sufficient Master, Whom all creatures need, He neither eats nor drinks).

 

He begets not, nor was He begotten;

 

And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him’.†(Al-Ikhlas 112:1-4)

 

Regards

 

Aboo Uthmaan

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Equal but different is the answer. Both have be given certain qualities in life, Allah swt hasn't disadvantage one of the other. :D It our duty to uphold teh duties establish on us by the Quran and Sunnah

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Dear Darla

 

The answers to the questions are:

 

1) That they (the creation) worship Him alone without giving him any partners or ascribing any children to Him.

 

2) If they (the creation) do that then it is their right that they are not punished, thus, they will gain entry to Paradise.

 

The above is what our Prophet (sall-Allaahu 'alayhi wa sallam) said in a famous hadeeth, and Allaah created us to worship Him, as He says in the Qur'aan, since He created us for this purpose then it is His right that we fulfil this purpose, the purpose of our creation, however, He is not in need of our worship and this will be highlighted at the end of this post in which I will post one chapter from the Qur’aan, but what is worship?

 

Shaykh-ul-Islaam ibn Taymiyyah (d.728H) said:

 

"Worship (al-'Ibaadah) is obedience to Allaah by following that which He ordered upon the tongues of His Messengers.â€

 

And:

 

"Worship (al-'Ibaadah) is a comprehensive term covering everything that Allaah loves and is pleased with – whether sayings, or actions, outward and inward." (Majmoo-ul-Fataawaa, 10/149)

 

Imaam ibn Kathir (d.774H) said:

 

"And worship (al-'Ibaadah) is obedience to Allaah by acting upon what He commands, and abandoning what He forbids; and this is the reality and essence of Islaam. And the meaning of Islaam is: istislaam (submission and surrender) to Allaah – the Most High – along with the utmost compliance, humility, and submissiveness to Him." (Tafseerul-Qur'aanil-'Adtheem, 7/402)

 

To read more about the concept of worship in Islaam refer to the following link:

 

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.qss(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/archives/uboodiyah/toc.html"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.qss(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/archives/uboodiyah/toc.html[/url]

 

Allaah (subhaanahu wa ta’aala) said:

 

“Say (O Muhammad): ‘He is Allaah, (the) One.

 

Allaah-us-Samad (The Self-Sufficient Master, Whom all creatures need, He neither eats nor drinks).

 

He begets not, nor was He begotten;

 

And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him’.†(Al-Ikhlas 112:1-4)

 

Regards

 

Aboo Uthmaan

Dear Darla

 

If you have any comments on the rights of God and upholding those rights then feel free to comment, for indeed the rights of God come before the rights of anything and everything else.

 

Regards

 

Aboo Uthmaan

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Salaam,

 

I feel I have made clear my view of God having 'rights'. Only equals have rights towrds one another. We are God's subjects, so we only have obligations towards him. As you are Muslim and I am Christian we will probably share a similar view of God but we are unlikely to convince each other on the issue of the differences.

 

The obligations we have to God come first, that is the nature of an obligation over a right. Again, on what those obligations are we will probably have broad consensus but undoubtably disagree on certain issues.

 

However, I feel this is now off-topic as the topic is on the role of women in Islamic society.

 

Peace and Love,

 

DARLA

Edited by darla_1753

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Dear Darla

 

Ok, let us call it an obligation then, and an obligation is something that we must do, so we must fulfil the obligations we have towards God, and these obligations come before anything and everything, they come before my rights, they come before your rights, they come before mans rights and they come before women's rights, this much we will agree on.

 

So I ask you why you are so concerned about the rights of the creation when you have not fulfilled your obligations towards God. You will say that you have, but the reality is that you have not; you have given God a partner, a son, an equal, you have set up rivals with God and you have directed part of your worship to other than Him.

 

And they say: "The Most Beneficent (Allaah) has begotten a son (or offspring or children) [as the Jews say: 'Uzair (Ezra) is the son of Allaah, and the Christians say that He has begotten a son ['Iesa (Christ)], and the pagan Arabs say that He has begotten daughters (angels, etc.)]." (Maryam 19:88)

 

Indeed you have brought forth (said) a terrible evil thing. (Maryam 19:89)

 

Whereby the heavens are almost torn, and the earth is split asunder, and the mountains fall in ruins, (Maryam 19:90)

 

That they ascribe a son (or offspring or children) to the Most Beneficent (Allaah). (Maryam 19:91)

 

But it is not suitable for (the Majesty of) the Most Beneficent (Allaah) that He should beget a son (or offspring or children). (Maryam 19:92)

 

A few days ago I heard the reason why a former Christian became Muslim, he has only just reverted, and he said that after reading the Qur’aan he realised that he had indulged in the biggest sin of all, and that sin is Shirk, for indeed, as a Christian he had done what you are doing.

 

So he was upset and saddened by this, but as he carried on reading the Qur’aan he came to known that it is possible for God to forgive him for this gravest of sins, so he became happy knowing that there was still a chance that he could attain salvation, so he repented for his previous acts and embraced the religion of truth, Islaam, a religion that does not just claim to be monotheistic; rather, it is unlike any other religion a true monotheistic faith.

 

I invite you to explore the only true monotheistic faith…

 

Warm regards

 

Aboo Uthmaan

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