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bleachcola

I Keep Hearing That Islam Is A Religion Of Peace.

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As I said before, whether these actions are in accordance with the Quran is not an issue with me. The Muslims committing these acts are doing it in the name of Islam whether Islam condones it or not.

 

Their interpretation of Islam may be wrong, but regardless, they are doing it in the name of Islam and that is a problem for me.

 

Therefore Islam is a problem.

 

Dont contradict yourself!

 

The only reasonable solution I see is a wide scale reformation of the religion, but I don't see that happening.

 

Why should Islam have to reform??! Because Non Musims and a few so called muslims have tainted the image of Islam for the rest of the world? :D

 

You answered your own question up there..Islam does NOT advoate such behaviour, its people that end up twisting things to their personal and selfish needs. If this is a problem for you I strongly suggest you diffrentiate between what Islam advocates and what so called "followers" do.

Edited by ~mehnaz~

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PropellerAds
Dont contradict yourself!

Why should Islam have to reform??! Because Non Musims and a few so called muslims have tainted the image of Islam for the rest of the world? :D

 

You answered your own question up there..Islam does NOT advoate such behaviour, its people that end up twisting things to their personal and selfish needs. If this is a problem for you I strongly suggest you diffrentiate between what Islam advocates and what so called "followers" do.

 

This topic has already been addressed and resolved for me but I'll repeat it again for you. My issues with Islam are not based on religious ideology. It was the fact that it is being used on a wide scale as a tool of oppression and violence. I didn't care whether the true nature of Islam was being followed or not. Gunmakers don't intend for their weapons to kill innocent people, but it still happens on a daily basis. Therefore, guns are a problem just as Islam is a problem. An object or an idea that is created with good intention can still be used as a tool of destruction, some more than others. I don't think weapons should be outlawed, just as I don't believe Islam should be outlawed. But with the way things are right now, tighter restrictions and a more watchful eye need to be put into place to protect the world from people who call themselves Muslims in the ME. It sounds like a leap in logic, but it is really the same in my opinion. Tighter restrictions and a more watchful eye might sound like attacks on freedom of religion, but these tactics are currently saving people's lives. When the so-called followers of a religion are completely out of control, then their practices need major restructuring. I've come to the conclusion that Islam itself is not the problem, it's the followers of Islam that are the problem in the ME. To bring back the gun analogy: Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Just as Islam doesn't kill people, self proclaimed Muslims kill people. So how do we solve this? We can either change their minds or kill them all. Not likely that they will change their minds so that leaves one last option.

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As for my other topics. If there are already threads on jihad then I won't go there again, but I haven't seen much on the topic of israel so I'll start one for that.

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I see that as a non-Muslim I have three options:

You mean, surely, as a non-Muslim in a land ruled by Islam right? I say this because, if you live somewhere like the USA then these aren't your only options.

 

1. Convert to Islam.

Always a good option in my opinion :D

 

2. Pay a tax.

Yes, but there's no telling at this point what that tax might be like. That depends mainly on the amir, or ruler, of the Islamic state. It could be very low or very high depending on that person, whoever it might be.

 

For example a person might come to power in Iraq by upholding it as a nation under Islam...in which case they might charge very little to chaldeans and kurds to maintain unity. On the other hand, say if somehow France had become an Islamic state and the Muslims were very upset with the people who were previously in power then it is possible that those men would have a higher jizya tax. However, the example of The Prophet Muhammad (SAW) was not to bring undue hardship on the conquered peoples (ie: citizens of Mecca).

 

I said men because this tax is not charged on women or children and historically the amount varied with income. It should also be noted that people who paid jizya were not required to serve in the military and so they were under the protection of the Muslim state. In the USA a considerable portion of our taxes goes to the military budget so this aspect of jizya doesn't seem unreasonable. If your government got a new leader do you think the new leader would abolish taxes ? :D

 

Furthermore, the 4th pillar of Islam is Zakat which is a kind of regulated charity. So, every year Muslims are required to pay a fixed percentage of the value of various holdings in charity. This is not dissimilar to the jizya.

 

If the amir wanted to put finances before making people love Islam he might set the amount for jizya higher than the amount for zakat and if he wanted non-Muslims to love Islam then he might set the jizya below zakat...so that they would get to keep more of their money than Muslims do.

 

In any case it comes down to the amir and you can't say ahead of time what your tax option would look like.

 

3. Face the possibility of hostile aggression from Muslims.

I've never read in any sources of Islam that this is permissible. Self defense or retaliation for oppression are, however, acceptable.

 

Options 1 and 2 are not an option for me. Does this mean I am at war with Islam? Please clarify.

If you're not dead they are still options. It's only by closing our minds that we limit the number of things that are available to us.

 

Are you at war with Islam? I suspect that you're not unless you've come under attack recently. Why would you be???

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bleachcola,

 

(interesting choice of name btw)

 

i dont even know where to start in replying to you! you sure have been busy. i dont really have time to go through your replies this minute but i will get back to you in a day or two.

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bleachcola,

 

(interesting choice of name btw)

 

i dont even know where to start in replying to you! you sure have been busy. i dont really have time to go through your replies this minute but i will get back to you in a day or two.

 

Appreciate it. In the past Muslims have just disregarded me as a heretic and refused to have a conversation. In in return I have learned nothing.

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I've come across some scripture from the Quran on the internet. They are far from peaceful messages. Are these words not actually found in the Quran, but an anti-Islamic fabrication? Are they correct, but taken out of context? What's the deal? Seems that the Quran doesn't tolerate anyone that refuses to convert to Islam and actually advocates the killing of these "non-believers." People like myself come to the conclusion that Islam is violent and brutal when we hear/read these sorts of things.

 

ANNOUNCE PAINFUL PUNISHMENT TO THOSE WHO DISBELIEVE (9:3)

 

O Prophet! urge the believers to war; if there are twenty patient ones of you they shall overcome two hundred... (8:65)

 

Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve (8:55)

 

"Fight those who do not believe in Allah...And the Jews say Ezra is the son of God; and the Christians say Christ is the son of God; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; Allah's curse be on them; how they are turned away!" (Koran 9:29-30)

 

And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah (8:39)

 

When the sacred months have passed away, THEN SLAY THE IDOLATERS WHEREVER YOU FIND THEM, AND TAKE THEM CAPTIVES AND BESIEGE THEM AND LIE IN WAIT FOR THEM IN EVERY AMBUSH, then if they repent and keep up prayer [become believers] and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them (9:5)

 

And if they intend to act unfaithfully towards you, so indeed they acted unfaithfully towards Allah before, but He GAVE YOU MASTERY OVER THEM (8:71)

 

FIGHT THEM: Allah WILL PUNISH THEM BY YOUR HANDS AND BRING THEM TO DISGRACE, AND ASSIST YOU AGAINST THEM. (9:14)

 

FIGHT THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE IN Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, NOR FOLLOW THE RELIGION OF TRUTH, OUT OF THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN GIVEN THE BOOK [Christians and Jews], until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and THEY ARE IN A STATE OF SUBJECTION. (9:29)

 

O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination. (9:73)

 

O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil). (9:123)

 

I WILL CAST TERROR INTO THE HEARTS OF THOSE WHO DISBELIEVE. THEREFORE STRIKE OFF THEIR HEADS AND STRIKE OFF EVERY FINGERTIP OF THEM. THIS IS BECAUSE THEY ACTED ADVERSELY TO Allah AND HIS MESSENGER; AND WHOEVER ACTS ADVERSELY TO Allah AND HIS MESSENGER - THEN SURELY Allah IS SEVERE IN REQUITING (EVIL). THIS - TASTE IT, AND (KNOW) THAT FOR THE UNBELIEVERS IS THE PUNISHMENT OF FIRE. O you who believe! When you meet those who disbelieve marching for war, then turn not your backs to them. And whoever shall turn his back to them on that day - unless he turn aside for the sake of fighting or withdraws to a company - then he, indeed, becomes deserving of Allah's wrath, and his abode is hell; and an evil destination shall it be. So you did not slay them, but it was Allah Who slew them and you did not smite when you smote (the enemy) but it was Allah Who smote, and that He might confer upon the believers a good gift from Himself; (8:12-17)

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:D Here's a link to a site that publishes 3 different translations of every verse:

 

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/[/url]

 

Choose the sura and start reading. You've only mentioned 2 suras and it seems like you have a bigger concern with the 9th. I would be interested to know what you make of it when you get the context.

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I've pretty much come to a conclusion. From conversations that I've had, Muslims in the West do not agree with the words and actions of the hardline groups in the ME. But simply saying that these hardcore Muslims are not following the true nature of Islam and are therefore not representatives of Islam is something that I just can't buy. Religion is all about interpretation. There are different interpretations of the Quran throughout the world and even throughout the ME. Just as there are different interpretations of the Christian religion (although probably not as many, even among catholic and especially protestant forms, there are literally hundreds of different churches). The vast majority of Muslims are located in the ME and are under the guidance of these extremist clerics that I hear about on a daily basis. Their interpretation of the Quran may not sit well with you, but to them it is the truth. People that they hold in the highest religious regard such as the Ayatollah Khomeini say things like “Those who know nothing about Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war…Islam says: Kill all the unbelievers just as they would kill you.†Clerics in the ME spout off the same thing on Al Jazeera regularly as well. From what I know, these people are the spiritual leaders of the majority, not some small radical sect in the ME, they represent the form of Islam that is being carried out there. You may not think that Rahman, the Afghan Christian convert, should be killed, but all the clerics in the region agree that he should be torn about limb by limb. Although you disagree with their views, they are still the majority and are the representatives of Islam whether you like it or not. Therefore a person, such as myself, can reasonably say that Islam is a violent and barbaric religion. Whether your specific interpretation agrees with it or not, the vast majority of Muslims are this way. I guess I could get technical and say "Islam is violent and barbaric" with a footnote reading: "except for a minority who reside mainly in the west who do not follow the popular interpretation."

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To further my point, I will put forth this hypothetical situation. Let's say I put forth a survey asking "Should all the Jews in israel be forcefully removed, the men murdered, and the women and children enslaved, as well as any other person who does not accept Allah as the one God and Mohammed as his prophet?" I'm guessing that the majority of you would say no. Even if you despised the Jews in israel would you accept them being murdered and enslaved along with any other non-Muslim in the ME? Probably not. Now pretend I ask this question in the ME. What would the majority say? The answer is yes. That's not just speculation either. Numerous polls with similar, if not exact wording have shown this result. And these aren't just polls that are skewed by anti-Muslim westerners. Polls done by the Arab/Muslim media show the same result. Now you might come on here and say that these Muslims are not being merciful and peaceful bc they are not following the true nature of Islam. But if I asked them, they would say that YOU are being merciful and peaceful bc YOU are not following the true meaning of Islam as told to them by their clerics. These people are in the vast majority, so their view is the correct representation of the religion for all intents and purposes. Your interpretation is held by a minority and is therefore of no real importance in judging the religion. It's like saying that Christians believe in polygamy bc mormons believe in polygamy. Mormons are a small sect of Christianity and don't reflect the overall nature of the religion. This is exactly the same concept as you guys saying Islam is peaceful and merciful, while the majority of the followers of Islam believe otherwise.

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"The vast majority of Muslims are located in the ME"

 

 

LOL are you serious? You Need to do some research buddy. A minority of the total world muslim population lives in the Middle East.

 

>>> Largest muslim population is in indonesia <<<

Edited by anthony19832005

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Dear BleachCola

The vast majority of Muslims are located in the ME and are under the guidance of these extremist clerics that I hear about on a daily basis.

Very Funny...i hear that laughing is good for health

Most of ur conclusions are absurd .and are based on lies or false info like the above

I, as someone who has stayed in the middle east for quiet some time,(though iam no arab) can tell u that the "hardline" stuff u mention is a fantasy of the western media and the majority of the clerics in the ME actually pass fatwas condemning the acts of terrorists .Ofcourse u sitting in ur small box are never going to hear about it simply because ur TV or the sources u read are BIASED and have an AGENDA of misinformations

 

if u want the fatwas i mentioned GO here (www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.fatwa-online(contact admin if its a beneficial link)"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.fatwa-online(contact admin if its a beneficial link)[/url]

If u want to read the Qura'n (www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/[/url]

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_video.google(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/videoplay?docid=-995045930719046666&q=Islam&pl=true"]Does Islam=Terrorism?[/url] by some one of ur own race

If u want to get a detailed introduction to Islam Check out my signature

Edited by al-malabari

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"The vast majority of Muslims are located in the ME"

LOL are you serious? You Need to do some research buddy. A minority of the total world muslim population lives in the Middle East.

 

>>> Largest muslim population is in indonesia <<<

 

Population of Indonesia: 200 million with 87% professing Islam.

 

Population of the ME: 340 million in the upper 80's in percentage professing Islam, each country is different, and this doesn't even include Pakistan and Afghanistan

 

And the last time I checked, Indonesia isn't exactly the most civilized place on earth. What's laughable is someone using it as an example of a peaceful and productive country. The same stories come out of that area on a daily basis. While you are laughing, take the time to think about the most violent places on earth: Middle East including North Africa, southern parts of Asia, Indonesian islands. What do the majority of the citizens practice? That's right -- Islam. All you have to do now is convert the Congo and Islam will have complete dominance on barbarism. You may think it's a laughing matter, but the majority of the people in the West look at this and ask if Islam is something we want to flourish in our countries.

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There are different interpretations of the Quran throughout the world and even throughout the ME.

To me.... this is the only valid point u make.

I guess statistics is not ur thing.

:D

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Dear BleachCola

 

Very Funny...i hear that laughing is good for health

Most of ur conclusions are absurd .and are based on lies or false info like the above

I, as someone who has stayed in the middle east for quiet some time,(though iam no arab) can tell u that the "hardline" stuff u mention is a fantasy of the western media and the majority of the clerics in the ME actually pass fatwas condemning the acts of terrorists .Ofcourse u sitting in ur small box are never going to hear about it simply because ur TV or the sources u read are BIASED and have an AGENDA of misinformations

 

if u want the fatwas i mentioned GO here (www.)"http://fatwa-online"]fatwa-online[/url]

If u want to read the Qura'n (www.)"http://usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/"]usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/[/url]

(www.)"http://video.google/videoplay?docid=-995045930719046666&q=Islam&pl=true"]Does Islam=Terrorism?[/url] by some one of ur own race

If u want to get a detailed introduction to Islam Check out my signature

 

The media does contain bias, that is true. But are you seriously saying that the ME is a peaceful place? If clerics are passing fatwas condemning terrorism then the people obviously aren't listening. This stuff happens multiple times every single day. Is the media making these stories up? The area is a mess. Do foreigners feel unsafe when they visit the US and Europe? Do they have to worry about being kidnapped and beheaded? Do they have to worry about being blown up while shopping for groceries? Are they afraid of getting caught in the middle of a civil war or tribal dispute? I hope not. If so they should visit somewhere other than New York (joke to lighten the situation). And don't tell me these are isolated occurances. It happens every day! I really don't see this as a laughing matter. The people there are stuck in the Dark Ages, running around killing each other on a massive scale. If the West wanted to kill everyone there, they would simply have to put a gun in the hands of every citizen. If you are worried about innocent people dying, then don't complain about the Iraqi war, complain about the actual citizens who are incapable of living together with people who are different.

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To me.... this is the only valid point u make.

I guess statistics is not ur thing.

:D

 

Yeah, you're right. How silly of me to think that 87% of 340 million is larger than 87% of 200 million.

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Hey Mr.Bleach. .open ur eyes .

most of ME is indeed a peacful place ...

the exception are Iraq and palestine ,the rest are as peaceful as any other place on earth-both due to foreigners US and the Zionists

 

The people there are stuck in the Dark Ages, running around killing each other on a massive scale.

Hahahhahah ..u are foolish and ignorant..this is the worst stereotype i have ever come across .... when will u ever learn?

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U forget when ur forefathers went in to muslim lands and spread ur barbarism ...read the history my dear...u are just so ignorant !

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Hey Mr.Bleach. .open ur eyes .

most of ME is indeed a peacful place ...

the exception are Iraq and palestine ,the rest are as peaceful as any other place on earth-both due to foreigners US and the Zionists

Hahahhahah ..u are foolish and ignorant..this is the worst stereotype i have ever come across .... when will u ever learn?

 

Afghanistan and Pakistan are peaceful? If Iran is peaceful, why do they riot on a large scale over a cartoon printed in a foreign newspaper and call for the death of the artist? If Egypt is peaceful, then why are westerners given strict rules to prevent from being kidnapped? Rules issued by Egyptian authorities themselves.

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U forget when ur forefathers went in to muslim lands and spread ur barbarism ...read the history my dear...u are just so ignorant !

 

Are you referring to the Christian crusades? I have read history. I have translated primary sources of history explaining why they were started (I was a Latin student in college). The crusades were in response to Muslims attacking Christian pilgrims who were visiting the holy land. It was a response to Muslims destroying Christian holy places in the holy land. But most importantly it was a response to Muslims invading Europe. Now if a group of people invaded Mecca, started burning down Masjids, killing Muslims who were on their pilgrimmage to Mecca, and then started pushing into the ME, what would the Muslims do? That's right, exactly what the Christians did during the crusades. Don't be hypocritical. But this really shouldn't even be an issue. This happened centuries ago. Talk about the present. Talk about what is going on now in the world. Who cares about what happened in the past? Can you justify what Muslims are doing now by pointing out what Christians did a long time ago? As I said before, Christianity in Europe during the Dark Ages was a problem just as Islam in the ME is presently a problem. It is a tool of oppression and something that people use to justify violence. Christianity and Europe have moved past this and evolved socially. Muslims in the ME however are not.

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Afghanistan and Pakistan are peaceful?

If Iran is peaceful, why do they riot on a large scale over a cartoon printed in a foreign newspaper and call for the death of the artist?

 

If Egypt is peaceful, then why are westerners given strict rules to prevent from being kidnapped? Rules issued by Egyptian authorities themselves.

 

More ignorance ..i pity ur state ...Afghanistand and Pakistan are NOT in ME ,Pakistan has border with India ..so India must be in ME too ...

 

No riots happend in Iran ,yes they called for the death of the artist ...many people call for the death of many others ..its just speech ..there was no action .

 

Egypt has at some parts of the country terrorists attacking the country like MANY other countries in the world .had in the past

..they are a minority ,which doesnt give u a license to call the whole of ME barbaric

 

 

ps:riots happend in france too recently ..so whole of europe must be barbaric by ur logic

Edited by al-malabari

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No Iam not referring to the crusades ...iam referrring to the more recent colonalization .

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Can you justify what Muslims are doing now by pointing out what Christians did a long time ago? As I said before, Christianity in Europe during the Dark Ages was a problem just as Islam in the ME is presently a problem. It is a tool of oppression and something that people use to justify violence. Christianity and Europe have moved past this and evolved socially. Muslims in the ME however are not.

I never justified any oppression.

Islam is not the problem ..Islam is the solution .

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More ignorance ..i pity ur state ...Afghanistand and Pakistan are NOT in ME ,Pakistan has border with India ..so India must be in ME too ...

 

No riots happend in Iran ,yes they called for the death of the artist ...many people call for the death of many others ..its just speech ..there was no action .

 

Egypt has at some parts of the country terrorists attacking the country like MANY other countries in the world .had in the past

..they are a minority ,which doesnt give u a license to call the whole of ME barbaric

ps:riots happend in france too recently ..so whole of europe must be barbaric by ur logic

 

 

Well, they DID burn down some embassies. That's active enough. And the prevalence of the death sentence doesnt speak too well for Sharia Law...

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Well, they DID burn down some embassies. That's active enough. And the prevalence of the death sentence doesnt speak too well for Sharia Law...

Did Iranians burn embassy ... i am not aware of them having done that

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