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bleachcola

I Keep Hearing That Islam Is A Religion Of Peace.

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But when I look at Muslim countries, they seem to be the most violent and barbaric places on earth. I understand that the people doing these things may be in the minority, but this minority makes headlines on a daily basis. I rarely ever see Christians killing in the name of Christianity. Same with Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, etc. Only thing that comes to mind is the Christians killing abortion doctors a few years ago. Whenever I see the word "cleric" mentioned in a story, it is in reference to a Muslim cleric calling for the death of others. Case in point, the clerics in Afghanistan calling for a man to be torn apart for converting to Christianity. On a daily basis I read about them calling for the death of all Jews. Doesn't seem like a very peaceful approach if you ask me. From what I read, these men hold a lot of power over there. If the spiritual leaders that are in power resort to these violent measures, how can one justify calling Islam a religion of peace? Whether the Quran calls for these things or not is irrelevant in my mind. I don't put weight on words. I look at actions. And the leaders who practice Islam, the clerics in this case, are anything but peaceful. Please help me understand.

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PropellerAds

Do not judge the religion based on its followers, seek to understand the Theology before you seek to understand the followers. Islam does not permit these heinous actions.

 

Whether the Quran calls for these things or not is irrelevant in my mind. I don't put weight on words. I look at actions. And the leaders who practice Islam, the clerics in this case, are anything but peaceful. Please help me understand.

 

If you want to see true actions, read about the Biography of the Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) and the 4 rightly guided caliphs. Present day muslims are a disgrace compared to the Prophet (PBUH)

 

Salamu Alaikum

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As I said before, whether these actions are in accordance with the Quran is not an issue with me. The Muslims committing these acts are doing it in the name of Islam whether Islam condones it or not. They are the representation of the religion. The barbaric laws in these countries are said to be based on Islamic law. So I am coming to the reasonable conclusion that Islam is a problem for the world bc its followers commit these actions on a wide scale. Their interpretation of Islam may be wrong, but regardless, they are doing it in the name of Islam and that is a problem for me. The only reasonable solution I see is a wide scale reformation of the religion, but I don't see that happening. The Muslims who commit these atrocities are in control and don't want to change. Therefore Islam is a problem.

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I was sort of repeating the same thing over and over in circles in that post, but the basic point is that Islam is the driving force for these people. Whether they are following the true meaning of Islam is irrelevant. It is the cause of these actions and is therefore a problem.

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I'm not trying to be rude here. I would like to have a conversation. I don't see Islam doing the good that it is supposed to be doing. At one point in time, the Middle East was home to the most advanced society in the world. Their accomplishments in math, science, and art were far beyond that of the Western world. But then came Islam and these things can no longer be said about the Middle East. The Arab people are being held in the dark ages by a religion. It's sad to see. I wonder how much better our world would be right now if Arabs continued on the path of advancement that they were once on.

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Hello,

 

You ARE going around in circles.

 

1. You say that you're aware that the people doing things you don't like aren't following Islam

2. You say whether or not they're following Islam is irrelevant

2. You say Islam needs to be revised.

 

Why should Islam be revised if these people aren't following Islam and what they're following is irrelevant? :D

 

When you say you have an issue with the clerics, it appears to be a cultural/local thing because Muslims don't have these problems in the USA or China.

 

Peace,

AS

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I agree, I guess my problem is cultural. I should have worded it to say that the way Islam is practiced over there should be revised. But does anyone see that ever happening? They are happy with what they have and do not want to change. It's just hard for me to remove Islam from the argument since that is what they claim guides their actions. Since Islam has been introduced to the Middle East it has been on a steady decline. Can anyone truly say that the Arabs are a thriving society right now. With the exception of a couple wealthy countries like the UAE and Kuwait, the region is very poor and barbaric. The people in charge who have made it this way use Islam as their tool of oppression. I honestly believe that the Middle East would have been better off if Islam was never created.

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Since Islam has been introduced to the Middle East it has been on a steady decline. Can anyone truly say that the Arabs are a thriving society right now. With the exception of a couple wealthy countries like the UAE and Kuwait, the region is very poor and barbaric. The people in charge who have made it this way use Islam as their tool of oppression. I honestly believe that the Middle East would have been better off if Islam was never created.

 

Peace Bleachcola, I kindly suggest that you read about Islam before you continue, because your idea of Islam is obvioulsy obsecured. I suggest you at least pick up a history book. The statement above really showes your ignorance of Islam, no offense. Its when the Arabs abandoned Islam, that's when they lost it all. I am Arab. But most importantly I am muslim, I understand the situation more than most.

 

Salamu Alaikum

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AIT, are you saying that you society has improved since the introduction of Islam? If so I don't see it. The Middle East was the super power in the world before Islam. Whether Islam is the reason for the decline, I cannot say. What I can say is that the leaders in the Middle East are enslaving their people with the help of Islam. They may not be following the true law of Islam but it is their weapon of oppression. I want you to understand that I am not bashing Islam as a religion. Muslims in the West are doing just fine. But combine Islam with Arab culture and you have a big problem. That is exactly why I am stating that the Middle East would have been better off without the introduction of Islam.

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I agree, I guess my problem is cultural. I should have worded it to say that the way Islam is practiced over there should be revised. But does anyone see that ever happening? They are happy with what they have and do not want to change. It's just hard for me to remove Islam from the argument since that is what they claim guides their actions. Since Islam has been introduced to the Middle East it has been on a steady decline. Can anyone truly say that the Arabs are a thriving society right now. With the exception of a couple wealthy countries like the UAE and Kuwait, the region is very poor and barbaric. The people in charge who have made it this way use Islam as their tool of oppression. I honestly believe that the Middle East would have been better off if Islam was never created.

 

firstly, the main reason your arguments seems so all over the place is because you really do not have a clear picture of what Arabs are truely like, which could be due to a number of things. such as never having visited the region, or mixed with many Arabs, or that your views are just a simplistic generalisation which you formed through all the crap in the media, or all the above!

 

secondly, most Arab countries are run by regimes, which eat up all the country's wealth and resources, making people live in very poor conditions, with low wages if they're lucky enough to find a job. in the streets in Egypt you find university graduates cleaning shoes on the street because they cant find work. what the average person worries about is how they are going to survive day to day, to keep a roof over their heads and be able to feed their family, they dont sit like you and me in the comfort of our computer screens and try to decide what they should or shouldnt be doing.

 

when the ME was the most advanced society in the world, it was controlled by Islam, i am pretty sure of that. and the reason it has declined is because of the regimes that opress the people. your argument is flawed because you'd rather not accept that in actual fact Islam does not condone much of the action carried out in the name of Islam, or that leaders of the Arab world are in fact are misusing Islam in order to opress their people.

the world is not as simple as you'd like to perceive, one thing which irritates by some westerners is their belief that everyone should be living the way they do, and if they dont then they're automatically wrong. well most people dont want to live the western lifestyle, everyone has their own culture, their own beleifs, their own way of life, and should have the right to live it how they want not how you want.

 

another point, is that the action of terrorists, especially within the ME itself, like what happened in jordan and Egypt, is more of a blow to the Arabs in those countries than to the west, firstly because most of those who end up being killed are the Arabs and secondly because many of them make their living out of tourism in those areas, so if westerns stop going because theyre scared of terrorist attacks then it's those Arabs who suffer not the westerners who choose a different destination to go holidaying to the next year.

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AIT, are you saying that you society has improved since the introduction of Islam? If so I don't see it. The Middle East was the super power in the world before Islam. Whether Islam is the reason for the decline, I cannot say.

 

u might want to view this site: (www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.1001inventions(contact admin if its a beneficial link)"]www.1001inventions(contact admin if its a beneficial link)[/url]

it might give you a little more insight and let you re analyze your skewed idea that Islam was the reason for the decline in the ME.

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Noor, you reiterated my main point. The people in charge are indeed misusing Islam in making the region what it is today. We agree on that. What we don't agree on is the timing of the ME being a superpower. The ME was on the top of the world when the Egyptians were polytheistic. They were still at the top when the Babylonians were practicing polytheism. When the Greeks came into Babylon and the surrounding area they were in awe of what Arabs and Persians were doing. They realized that the Greeks weren't as advanced as they thought. They had to catch up to these great Eastern cultures. Ever since the creation of the Byzantine Empire and the advent of Islam (which I wholeheartedly believe was just an answer to the Romans growing under the banner of Christianity), the ME has not been on the forefront of accomplishment. In the beginning of Islam they still were a great culture with superior technology. But as time progressed, the West has left them far behind. Now the ME is in the state it is today while the rest of the world continues to grow and thrive. Islam worked for a time there. It united the people under a religious philosophy (the best way to unite people). But then it just became a tool of oppression. It is the natural order of religion. Christians have moved past the oppression stage of their religion (the Dark Ages, Spanish Inquisition, Witch Hunts) but the Muslims in the ME are lagging behind. They are not evolving socially. And that is a problem that the West needs to deal with.

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u might want to view this site: (www.)"http://1001inventions####"]1001inventions[/url]

it might give you a little more insight and let you re analyze your skewed idea that Islam was the reason for the decline in the ME.

 

As I stated above. Muslims continued to make scientific and social contributions to the world in the beginning. But what have they done lately? Every major step in the world of transportation, communication, and medicine has been made by the West. So back to my point: Muslims in the ME are stuck in a literal Dark Age. If I am wrong please show how. Keep this in mind when you are using the products of West where science is not restricted by religion. Thanks to us you can drive a car, fly in a plane, have this conversation with me on a computer, make a telephone call, and treat your illnesses with modern medical techniques. The only thing the ME has right now is oil. And it will not last forever.

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Noor, you reiterated my main point. The people in charge are indeed misusing Islam in making the region what it is today. We agree on that.

 

the point you miss is that is that although they may use Islam as their banner, that those leaders are far from Muslims, or are their laws Islamic. therefore, Islam in itself is not the problem, it's those who misuse it.

 

What we don't agree on is the timing of the ME being a superpower. The ME was on the top of the world when the Egyptians were polytheistic. They were still at the top when the Babylonians were practicing polytheism. When the Greeks came into Babylon and the surrounding area they were in awe of what Arabs and Persians were doing. They realized that the Greeks weren't as advanced as they thought. They had to catch up to these great Eastern cultures. Ever since the creation of the Byzantine Empire and the advent of Islam (which I wholeheartedly believe was just an answer to the Romans growing under the banner of Christianity), the ME has not been on the forefront of accomplishment. In the beginning of Islam they still were a great culture with superior technology. But as time progressed, the West has left them far behind. Now the ME is in the state it is today while the rest of the world continues to grow and thrive. Islam worked for a time there. It united the people under a religious philosophy (the best way to unite people). But then it just became a tool of oppression. It is the natural order of religion. Christians have moved past the oppression stage of their religion (the Dark Ages, Spanish Inquisition, Witch Hunts) but the Muslims in the ME are lagging behind. They are not evolving socially. And that is a problem that the West needs to deal with.

 

if you look through the site i posted above, you will see we are indeed referring to different times.

 

as your comment that the west needs to deal with it, because we're apparently not evolving socially....it's a very arrogant remark, the way in which the west helps only seems to further deepen the social divide between the muslim world and the west, and the thing you seem to not understand is that the west's involvment in the ME is not as greatly appreciated as some like to beleive. starting wars, making friends with bad regimes, giving aid to occupiers on muslim land, is not always the best way to 'deal' with those 'barbaric Arabs'.

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As I stated above. Muslims continued to make scientific and social contributions to the world in the beginning. But what have they done lately? Every major step in the world of transportation, communication, and medicine has been made by the West. So back to my point: Muslims in the ME are stuck in a literal Dark Age. If I am wrong please show how. Keep this in mind when you are using the products of West where science is not restricted by religion. Thanks to us you can drive a car, fly in a plane, have this conversation with me on a computer, make a telephone call, and treat your illnesses with modern medical techniques. The only thing the ME has right now is oil. And it will not last forever.

 

i was not referring to what the arabs have achieved recently, i was simply replying to the statement that Islam somehow stunted the growth of knowledge at earlier times.

 

you should however keep in mind that many foreigners, many of them arabs contribute a great deal in the west with regards to research and new technology.

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the point you miss is that is that although they may use Islam as their banner, that those leaders are far from Muslims, or are their laws Islamic. therefore, Islam in itself is not the problem, it's those who misuse it.

if you look through the site i posted above, you will see we are indeed referring to different times.

 

as your comment that the west needs to deal with it, because we're apparently not evolving socially....it's a very arrogant remark, the way in which the west helps only seems to further deepen the social divide between the muslim world and the west, and the thing you seem to not understand is that the west's involvment in the ME is not as greatly appreciated as some like to beleive. starting wars, making friends with bad regimes, giving aid to occupiers on muslim land, is not always the best way to 'deal' with those 'barbaric Arabs'.

 

I completely agree. The way things are being handled now are not solving any problems. But something does need to be done. I'm sorry if I came across as arrogant, bc I have no right to be. Christians went through this exact period, but have since left it behind. I hope that Muslims in the ME can move past this stage and then everyone can just get along.

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I agree, I guess my problem is cultural.

That's better. It's not just your problem though, it's my problem (and everyone else's) too. The aspects of culture that are presented as religion serve 2 purposes:

1. Muslims being misled by other Muslims into forms of oppression

2. Islam being portrayed (by western media at least) as a reflection of these cultural practices which are actually not a part of the religion at all.

 

I should have worded it to say that the way Islam is practiced over there should be revised.

Most Muslims who follow true Islam (which is many) would agree with you 100%, I'm sure.

 

But does anyone see that ever happening?

In Islam we don't believe anyone can predict the future :D

 

They are happy with what they have and do not want to change.

It's been said that crisis precipitates change :D

 

It's just hard for me to remove Islam from the argument since that is what they claim guides their actions.

That's understandable and this irritates me as well. After learning about Islam I began to see how we are told Islam is one thing, which appears very unappealing, when in reality that is NOT Islam at all. This site is a good resource for you to learn about real Islam AND Muslims :D

 

Since Islam has been introduced to the Middle East it has been on a steady decline.

 

Well I disagree with that. Islam was revealed in the early-mid 600's CE and at that point it uplifted an even MORE poor & barbaric Arabia into one of the greatest empires the world has ever known. Hard to call that a steady decline.

 

Can anyone truly say that the Arabs are a thriving society right now. With the exception of a couple wealthy countries like the UAE and Kuwait, the region is very poor and barbaric. The people in charge who have made it this way use Islam as their tool of oppression. I honestly believe that the Middle East would have been better off if Islam was never created.

 

Actually, it's the LACK of Islam that has led to this deterioration. It's said that power corrupts and it appears that's what happened. In the process real Islam was left at the way side and Muslims suffered the consequences. However, it should have been foreseen since the Quran only promises the kingdom to those who are righteous and do good deeds. If people stop acting righteously and stop doing good then they deserve nothing.

 

Peace,

AS

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That's better. It's not just your problem though, it's my problem (and everyone else's) too. The aspects of culture that are presented as religion serve 2 purposes:

1. Muslims being misled by other Muslims into forms of oppression

2. Islam being portrayed (by western media at least) as a reflection of these cultural practices which are actually not a part of the religion at all.

Most Muslims who follow true Islam (which is many) would agree with you 100%, I'm sure.

In Islam we don't believe anyone can predict the future :D

It's been said that crisis precipitates change :D

That's understandable and this irritates me as well. After learning about Islam I began to see how we are told Islam is one thing, which appears very unappealing, when in reality that is NOT Islam at all. This site is a good resource for you to learn about real Islam AND Muslims :D

Well I disagree with that. Islam was revealed in the early-mid 600's CE and at that point it uplifted an even MORE poor & barbaric Arabia into one of the greatest empires the world has ever known. Hard to call that a steady decline.

Actually, it's the LACK of Islam that has led to this deterioration. It's said that power corrupts and it appears that's what happened. In the process real Islam was left at the way side and Muslims suffered the consequences. However, it should have been foreseen since the Quran only promises the kingdom to those who are righteous and do good deeds. If people stop acting righteously and stop doing good then they deserve nothing.

 

Peace,

AS

 

Appreciate your reply. Given me a new perspective on the issue.

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as your comment that the west needs to deal with it, because we're apparently not evolving socially....it's a very arrogant remark, the way in which the west helps only seems to further deepen the social divide between the muslim world and the west, and the thing you seem to not understand is that the west's involvment in the ME is not as greatly appreciated as some like to beleive. starting wars, making friends with bad regimes, giving aid to occupiers on muslim land, is not always the best way to 'deal' with those 'barbaric Arabs'.

 

I must respond by saying that the major conflicts that the US has been involved in since Vietnam were all either started by Muslims or were in the defense of Muslims.

 

Afghan/Soviet War: Aid given to protect Afghans.

 

Gulf War I: Protect Kuwaitis from the Iraqis.

 

Somalia: Protect Muslim Somalis from violent war lords.

 

Balkans: Protect Muslims from hostile forces under Milosovic.

 

Current Operation in Afghanistan: Retaliation against Taliban support of Al Qaeda

 

Gulf War II: Oust Saddam. I know this is a hot issue right now, but can anyone honestly say that Iraq is better off with Saddam in power?

 

So my point is that your accusations are false. Everything we have been doing has had the intention of helping Muslims. Whether it is the right approach or not is debatable. And I do stick by my claims of the ME being barbaric. I don't see how anyone can debate that fact.

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Regarding "giving aid to occupiers of Muslim lands":

 

I'm guessing that you are referring to israel. If I remember correctly, it was the Jews that originally made that land a sacred holy place. Muslims then took it by force. But even the Jews took that area by force from its inhabitants before that. The land has changed hands so many times that no one can rightfully make a valid claim to ownership. Jews took it from Muslims, who took it from Christians (throw the Roman occupation in here somewhere), who took it from Jews, who took it from polytheistic local inhabitants thousands of years ago. Confusing, but get the picture? How can you sit there and call it "Muslim Land?" It's just as much Jewish, Christian, and Pagan as it is Muslim. Don't go pointing the finger of arrogance while making statements such as these. You contradict yourself and your argument then loses its credibility. The reality of the situation is that israel is a battleground that is up for the strongest to take. At this point in time, the Jews, with the backing of the West, are the strongest force, so they have ownership of the land. When Muslims become the superpower, they can have it back. That is the way it has always been and always will be.

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To be honest I still am not convinced Islam is a religion of peace. I have a better understanding of the situation in the ME now, thanks to the those who have posted. But from my readings on this site I see that as a non-Muslim I have three options:

 

1. Convert to Islam.

2. Pay a tax.

3. Face the possibility of hostile aggression from Muslims.

 

Options 1 and 2 are not an option for me. Does this mean I am at war with Islam? Please clarify.

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Peace bleachcola

 

I read your post and it seems you have a tough time differentiating between true Islam and how it is supposed to be applied in all spheres of life and society, and what you are seeing today as pracised by the muslims...

you cannot hold a religion accountable for a country's or region's shortcomings...

 

think of a different religion...lets say christianity...

many south and central american countries are catholic...and some of their countries also suffer many things because of their oppressive governments (e.g. cuba, colombia)...many other people from the region are suffering from poverty and hunger...do i judge the countries' shortcomings because

of their catholic religion?

many eastern europen countries are eastern orthodox christian...they are also still recovering from the effects of socialist regimes from the last decades...they still suffer from poverty...milosevic in the last decade was a war criminal and was oppressive to his people...do i blame their orthodox christian religion?

 

for both questions the answer is no...the fault lies in their governments and how they rule their people and not their religion...its the same thing for the ME...

 

wassalam

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Peace bleachcola

 

I read your post and it seems you have a tough time differentiating between true Islam and how it is supposed to be applied in all spheres of life and society, and what you are seeing today as pracised by the muslims...

you cannot hold a religion accountable for a country's or region's shortcomings...

 

think of a different religion...lets say christianity...

many south and central american countries are catholic...and some of their countries also suffer many things because of their oppressive governments (e.g. cuba, colombia)...many other people from the region are suffering from poverty and hunger...do i judge the countries' shortcomings because

of their catholic religion?

many eastern europen countries are eastern orthodox christian...they are also still recovering from the effects of socialist regimes from the last decades...they still suffer from poverty...milosevic in the last decade was a war criminal and was oppressive to his people...do i blame their orthodox christian religion?

 

for both questions the answer is no...the fault lies in their governments and how they rule their people and not their religion...its the same thing for the ME...

 

wassalam

 

I understand that now, but at the same time I must point out that these Christian nations are not commiting these atrocities in the name of Christianity or any other religion. While Muslims in the ME do it on a daily basis. That is what originally got me on this topic. But I will take your words for it and accept that the peole doing these things in the ME are not practicing true Islam. At this point in time I would like to discuss my previous posts on israel and my options as a non-Muslim.

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You change topics like flicking a switch...i think we can only answer your questions one at a time...

your last post has to do with the captured people of a captured region when a muslim army takes over the previously non-muslim land...i think they are many other areas in this forum, that talks about jihad...you should look at them first before commenting...before that you should find out more about the basic tenets of Islam before going on to slightly more complicated areas like jihad...

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I still insists that for the most part people use religion as a sword and not as shield.

To force personal beliefs through religion looks like a pattern.

From a historical perspective...

Saladin after the victory of crusade of Jerusalem, freed all the POWs who can pay their way out.

The one's who couldn't pay were paid through his own funds.

Given that and the fact that he was a strict muslim, one can see how personal beliefs

aren't detached from subscribed faith.

Why didnt he just take a verse from Quran and use it to justify killing all the "non believers"?

The way I see it... he forfilled what's required of him as a muslim and still managed to use his faith as a shield not a sword.

People who use Jihad to justify slaughter..they overlook the concept of Jihad-ulnafs...which is

the mental struggle to do what's right, to overcome harsh emotions and anguish is also Jihad.

To not fight someone who u have an equally good reason to fight is also Jihad.

It's unfortunate how I don't find the same sense of reason in most muslims today.

But it's not fair to say that it doesn't exist at all...for there are other people like Saladin

peace

Edited by llogical

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