Jump to content
Islamic Forum
Sign in to follow this  
open

Why Do You Think Jesus Didn't Die On The Cross?

Recommended Posts

Twice in the IF I was told Jesus dis not die on the cross. When I asked for evidence, a verse from the Qor'an was cited that stated, if You look close on it, that when Jesus died, it were not the Jews that killed Him. This is in accordings with the teaching of the Bible, so this verse is no evidence against Jesus dying on the cross.

 

After pointing it out, it seems no one could bring another verse from the Qor'an on that topic, there was just silence, if my memory doesn't betray me. So it seems there is no statement in the Qor'an that speaks against the death and resurrection of Jesus.

 

So, why do Muslim believe that Jesus didn't die on the cross? Is there a hadith about it, or is it pure invention by some Islamic scholars?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
PropellerAds

"And behold! God will say [i.e. on the Day of Judgment]: 'Oh Jesus, the son of Mary! Did you say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of God?' He will say: 'Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would indeed have known it. You know what is in my heart, though I know not what is in Yours. For You know in full all that is hidden. Never did I say to them anything except what You commanded me to say: 'Worship God, my Lord and your Lord.' And I was a witness over them while I lived among them. When You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a witness to all things'" (5:116-117).

 

"And surely they slew him not. But Allah (God) raised him unto Himself." Surah Nisaa, Verse 157-158

 

"They slew him not, nor did they crucify him but it was made dubious to them" Surah Nisaa, Verse 157

 

 

 

Allah(swta) raised Jesus(as) to Him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dear Looking by

 

Contrary to Christian beliefs, Muslims believe that Jesus was not crucified, but rather that someone else was made to resemble him and crucified instead of him. The Qur’aan states that he was raised up to the heavens where he will await until the day when he will be sent back to earth towards the end of time.

 

Allaah says: “And because of their (Jews) saying boastfully: ‘We killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, Messenger of God.’ But they killed him not nor did they crucify him, but rather the resemblance of Jesus was put in another man (and they killed that man). And those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no certain knowledge; they follow nothing but conjecture, for surely they killed him not. Rather, Allaah raised him up (body and soul) unto Himself. And Allaah is Ever All-Powerful, Most Wise. And there is none of the People of the Scripture (i.e. Jews and Christians), except that he will surely believe in Him (that he was really a messenger of God) before his (Jesus’) death. And on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them.†(Qur’aan, 4:157-159)

 

The Prophet Muhammad (sall-Allaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) has prophesied that Jesus will return and judge mankind with justice. He will descend by the white minaret in the east of Damascus, placing his hands upon the wings of two angels, and will fight against the Antichrist (Dajjaal) until he reaches him by the gate of Ludd (present day israel), where he will kill him.

 

Allaah says: “O People of the Scripture! Come to a word that is just between us and you – that we worship none but God alone and that we associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords besides God.’ Then if they turn away, say: ‘Bear witness that we are Muslims'.†(Qur’aan, 3:64)

 

Hope that helps!

 

Regards

 

Aboo Uthmaan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
"And behold! God will say [i.e. on the Day of Judgment]: 'Oh Jesus, the son of Mary! Did you say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of God?'

Of course not. A person worshipping Mary (mryam in the Original) as god is no Christian at all.

 

When You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a witness to all things'" (5:116-117).

We Christians do believe that Jesus was taken up to God (after His resurrection). Thats not my question, and Your quotation says nothing whether He died or not.

 

"And surely they slew him not. But Allah (God) raised him unto Himself." Surah Nisaa, Verse 157-158

 

"They slew him not, nor did they crucify him but it was made dubious to them" Surah Nisaa, Verse 157

Allah(swta) raised Jesus(as) to Him.

And this is in accordance to the Bible:

John 10:17. "For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again.

18. "No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father."

áåÃÇ íÃÈäí ÇáÂÈ áÇäí ÇÖÚ äÃÓí áÂÎÃåÇ ÇíÖÇ. .17

áíÓ ÇÃà íÃÎÃåÇ ãäí Èá ÇÖÚåÇ ÇäÇ ãä ÃÇÊí. áí ÓáØÇä Çä ÇÖÚåÇ æáí ÓáØÇä Çä ÂÎÃåÇ ÇíÖÇ. Ã¥ÃÃ¥ ÇáæÕíÉ ÞÈáÊåÇ ãä ÇÈí. .18

They slew Him not, He laid His life down on His own initiative. Perfect agreement (in this point), unless You come and interpret it in Your way.

 

So, where does this interpretation come from? Is it really part of true Islamic teaching? I just want to know.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Peace from our Lord,

Contrary to Christian beliefs, Muslims believe that Jesus was not crucified, but rather that someone else was made to resemble him and crucified instead of him.

Right, and I want to know why they believe so.

 

The Qur’aan states that he was raised up to the heavens where he will await until the day when he will be sent back to earth towards the end of time.

This is part of Christians teaching, but it is not the question I asked. Of course, our Lord was raised up to the heavens, the question is whether this occured after His resurrection (as we believe) or before (as You believe).

 

Allaah says: “And because of their (Jews) saying boastfully: ‘We killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, Messenger of God.’ But they killed him not nor did they crucify him, but rather the resemblance of Jesus was put in another man (and they killed that man).

Younes Ibn Abd' al-Aziz gave a different translation of this verse, which is in agreement with the translation I was given from (www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.gawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?s=&showtopic=26290&view=findpost&p=262841"]Aburafay[/url].

 

And those who differ therein are full of doubts.

As far as I know, Muslims who share Your translation are divided as who this "another man" was. And Muslims differ how to translate the sentence: was it made similar to them, or he?

 

We Christians have no doubts, and all Christians agree that Jesus was crucified. It seems this remark about people who doubt applies to Muslims, not Christians. :D

 

The Prophet Muhammad (sall-Allaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) has prophesied that Jesus will return and judge mankind with justice. He will descend by the white minaret in the east of Damascus, placing his hands upon the wings of two angels, and will fight against the Antichrist (Dajjaal) until he reaches him by the gate of Ludd (present day israel), where he will kill him.

 

Is this in the Qor'an? And BTW, it is off-topic.

 

Allaah says: “O People of the Scripture! Come to a word that is just between us and you – that we worship none but God alone and that we associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords besides God.’ Then if they turn away, say: ‘Bear witness that we are Muslims'.†(Qur’aan, 3:64)

As to associate partners, i.e. veneration of saints or angels, You may discuss that with a Catholic. We Protestants do not worship or venerate anything but the Lord our God.

 

Hope that helps!

 

[[corrected some typos]]

Edited by looking by

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As-salaamu ‘alaikum

 

As for a translation then it is not the Qur’aan, it is merely the words a translator chose to use, and many things may affect ones translation, such as the beliefs a person holds, and some Muslims have beliefs which do not conform to Islaam. So the translation of the Qur’aan is not the Qur’aan.

 

As for the proof that Jesus is not dead then that is in the verse that I quoted, Allaah said:

 

“...except that he will surely believe in Him (that he was really a messenger of God) before his (Jesus’) death...â€

 

In the books of tafsir we see that many of the companions of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said that this part of the verse refers to believing in Jesus when he returns before his death, and if this is before his death it means he has not yet died, and this is clear from reading the verse anyhow.

 

You venerate Jesus, so you do worship other than God.

 

Regards

 

Aboo Uthmaan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Peace from our Lord,

As for a translation then it is not the Qur’aan, it is merely the words a translator

I mark these words :D

 

and many things may affect ones translation, such as the beliefs a person holds, and some Muslims have beliefs which do not conform to Islaam. So the translation of the Qur’aan is not the Qur’aan.

My point was, that Muslims are divided how to translate this verse, and how to intepret the translation.

 

As for the proof that Jesus is not dead then that is in the verse that I quoted, Allaah said:

 

“...except that he will surely believe in Him (that he was really a messenger of God) before his (Jesus’) death...â€

According to your words above, these are not the words of Allah, but rather a translation. How do You know it is correct? Especially, why should "he" refer to Jesus and not to the believer?

 

In the books of tafsir

Is this a holy book? A Hadith compendium?

 

we see that many of the companions of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said that this part of the verse refers to believing in Jesus when he returns before his death, and if this is before his death it means he has not yet died, and this is clear from reading the verse anyhow.

Many companions ... that means not all. So again there is division and uncertainty. Compare this to the belief shared by all Christians, and many non-Christians, that Jesus died on the cross. There is no uncertainty in that matter.

 

And I think it is strange that a majority opinion of humans (please correct me if these companions were not humans) should outweight the Bible. :D

 

You venerate Jesus, so you do worship other than God.

:D No. I don't worship other than God. :D You speak about items You don't understand.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dear Looking By

 

You can mark the words if you wish, I could try to sugar coat things like others seem to do (and I do not mean just Muslims) or I can be honest with you and tell you truth. Not that what I said is that significant and if you come to know how we understand Islaam then you will understand why.

 

You see, with any translation it is not an explanation of the Qur’aan, it is a translation of the meanings, and the difference between an explanation and a translation can be vast. For example, someone may say something to us in English but it is possible that we may not understand what he is saying, so he explains it so we are then able to understand. Making any sense?

 

I know that the translation is correct for several reasons, one is that the translator I took that translation from is known to have correct Islaamic beliefs, unlike many other translators, and it was not just the translation that gave me that understanding, it was also the tafsir (explanation), and if you read the whole verse again (please scroll back up) you can clearly see who the “he†and “his†is referring to when read in the context of the full verse.

 

Tafsir is an explanation of the Qur’aan, and this is an important point, and it is so because if any 2 people differ in how to understand a verse of the Qur’aan we have sources which we can return back to in order to get the correct understanding, and this is known as the Tafsir, and this “Tafsir†is a science in and of itself.

 

Allaah, in His Mercy, did not leave us without guidance, but He sent a Messenger to all of mankind and over a period of 23 years He (Allaah) revealed the Qur’aan to His Messenger, the Prophet Muhammad (sall-Allaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam).

 

And the Messenger of Allaah (sall-Allaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) explained the Qur’aan to us (via his companions, who transmitted it to us), and his explanation is preserved in what is called ‘Sunnah’, and in this instance the word ‘Sunnah’ (all though it can have different meanings depending on the context it is used in) means the sayings, actions or approvals of the Prophet (sall-Allaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam).

 

So when wanting to understand the Qur’aan we turn to the Tafsir (explanation of the Qur’aan), and the Qur’aan is explained by the following:

 

1) Explaining the Qur’aan with the Qur’aan itself and with the Sunnah (i.e. authentic ahaadeeth)

2) Statements of the Prophet’s (sall-Allaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) companions (radee Allaahu ‘anhum) who learnt the Tafsir (explanation of the Qur’aan) from the Prophet (sall-Allaahu 'alayhi wa sallam)

3) Statements of the Taabi’een (the second generation of Muslims who were student of the companions of the Prophet [sall-Allaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam]) who learnt the Tafsir (explanation of the Qur’aan) from the companions (radee Allaahu 'anhum) of the Prophet (sall-Allaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam)

 

There is no other religion which has anything like this, and this is all from the preservation of the Qur’aan, and Allaah promised to preserve it, so much so that not just the text of the Qur’aan has been preserved but also the understanding of it.

 

When I said many companions it does not mean that other companions held other views at all, and the Muslim belief is well known and it is established and confirmed, when you learn more about the principles of Tafsir you will understand this issue more.

 

As for the bible then there is no chain of narration going back to Prophet Jesus to confirm that he said this or that; rather, it is a collection of books written by men, and in it there is some truth and some falsehood, there is also the slander of claiming that Jesus was God or the son of God, and mocking and belittlement of the Prophets accusing them of heinous acts, add to that the many contradictions contained it then I ask how can one be so certain that it is all the word of God.

 

And yes you do worship other than God, you worship His creation whereas I worship the One who created the one you worship.

 

Regards

 

Aboo Uthmaan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bismillahirrahmaanerraheem

 

The Quran very clearly states that 'Eesaa (Jesus) was NOT crucified, nor killed in any other way. Notice it says THEY did not kill him, rather than "jews" did not kill him (because he was NOT killed by ANYONE).

It is only the Ahmadiyyah sect who believe Jesus was killed, and this is also a hidden belief among Shiah scholars. Ahmadiyyahs are a sect who appeared only about a century ago, while the Shiahs have their own messiah and beliefs that completely contradict mainstream Islamic belief, as well as the Bible (for instance, they believe the Beast of the earth is good, and the saviour instead of Jesus-refer to revelation 13 of the Bible...).

But mainstream Muslims (over 90% of Muslims) believe that 'Eesa (Jesus) the Messiah was NOT killed nor crucified, he is still alive and would return in the ends of time to defeat Dajjal, the imposter (the false prophet).

 

Now for you Christians, there is a chapter in the Bible that clearly states that the Messiah was NOT killed. It is Revelation 12 of the Bible :

 

Revelation 12:4 and his tail doth draw the third of the stars of the heaven, and he did cast them to the earth; and the dragon did stand before the woman who is about to bring forth, that when she may bring forth, her child he may devour; 5 and she brought forth a male child, who is about to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, and caught away was her child unto God and His throne,

 

Notice the Dragon did NOT eat the child (so the Messiah was Not killed). If it was as you christians say, then it should have said that the Dragon did eat the child, but the child came out of the dragon's mouth, or something like that. But it clearly states that God took the child up, before the Dragon could eat him!

 

Also notice the whole chapter doesnt say anything about this Child (Jesus) being "God's son", but only the son of the Woman (mary/maryam).

 

The crucification/resurrection story of Jesus was taken directly from pagan religions, and this is the belief of thousands of historians (including many christian historians!).

 

May Allah bless 'Eesa al-Maseeh ibn Maryam and may He give us victory through him against the nations of Gog and Magog, and Al-maseeh ad-Dajjal.

 

Peace unto those who follow the Guidance

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Peace newnew,

 

The scripture in Revelation 12 cannot be referring to Jesus escaping death because there are other verses in Revelation that plainly state the opposite. The dragon did not devour Jesus on the cross, he rose again and lives forever more. Jesus was not "beamed up" by the Father to escape the cross, he faced it and won the victory over the devil. Revelation 12 must be understood in the context of the whole book.

 

In chapter 1, John meets the glorified Jesus, who introduces himself with these words:

"Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever!"

 

Other references to the death of Jesus in Revelation:

 

Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

Rev 5:6

 

 

In a loud voice they sang: "Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!"

Rev 5:12

 

All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.

Rev 13:8

 

How do we know who the lamb is? We look to the confession of John the Baptist:

 

The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world."

John 1:29

 

The crucifixion was witnessed by Jesus' enemies and some of his disciples. They all agreed that he died. The Roman guards testified to Pilate that Jesus was dead. The gospel of John is an eyewitness account of the crucifixion. When the body went missing from the tomb, the disciples were confused as to what it meant. Why? Because Jesus was dead. Thomas even refused to believe the other disciples who had seen the Lord. After the resurrection, the apostles devoted their lives proclaiming Jesus crucified, dead, risen and ascended. Some of them affirmed their witness to the very end while hanging on their own crosses.

 

For you, the version in the Quran is the revealed word of God setting the record straight. For Christians, it is a view of the events written 600 years after the fact, and not remotely comparable to the eyewitness accounts from the men who gave everything to preserve and spread the gospel.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Peace from our Lord,

I know that the translation is correct for several reasons, one is that the translator I took that translation from is known to have correct Islaamic beliefs,

Sounds like circular reasoning: to know what the correct Islamic beliefs are, you must understand the Qor'an correctly, and now You judge the understanding of the Qor'an by the correct beliefs of the translator ...

 

and it was not just the translation that gave me that understanding, it was also the tafsir (explanation), and if you read the whole verse again (please scroll back up) you can clearly see who the “he†and “his†is referring to when read in the context of the full verse.

No, unless I accept Your "tafsir", it not clear who will die, the believer or Jesus. If tafsir is a "science in and of itself", you may give me the scientific arguments that lead to Your conclusion.

 

So when wanting to understand the Qur’aan we turn to the Tafsir (explanation of the Qur’aan), and the Qur’aan is explained by the following:

The description reminds me of the way the Jews derive their teachings. Quite similar.

 

As for the bible then there is no chain of narration going back to Prophet Jesus to confirm that he said this or that; rather,

Oh, there are several chains:

Luke interrogated eyewitnesses, so we have in his book the chain Jesus - eyewitness - Luke.

The Gospel of John is written by an eye-witness, so we have the chain Jesus - John.

And, last but by no means least, the Spirit which told so many things to our messengers was sent by Jesus, so we have the chain Jesus - Holy Spirit - Bible.

 

it is a collection of books written by men,

Men guided by the Spirit. How do You react to someone saying the Qor'an is told by a man named Mohammad? The same way I react to Your mentioning of "men" and ommitting God's part in that matter.

 

there is also the slander of claiming that Jesus was God or the son of God,

And in the Qor'an we have the slander that Jesus is not what He said to be, namely the son of God.

 

and mocking and belittlement of the Prophets accusing them of heinous acts,

Every man is a sinner, saying there are men that do not sin is a blasphemy aginst God. You base Your judgment on a blasphemy!

 

add to that the many contradictions contained it

Not many. You should not listen to the unbelievers that think anything they don't understand is a contradiction. There is a long list of "contradictions" that turned out as not contradictory, when research found more out about the ancient world. Other "contradictions" can even be explained without listening to an historian.

 

then I ask how can one be so certain that it is all the word of God.

Because of the harmony in it. E.g., there are so many prophecies in the OT fullfilled by Jesus.

 

And yes you do worship other than God, you worship His creation whereas I worship the One who created the one you worship.

I don't worship any creation. I worship the creator.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Peace from our Lord,

The Quran very clearly states that 'Eesaa (Jesus) was NOT crucified, nor killed in any other way. Notice it says THEY did not kill him, rather than "jews" did not kill him (because he was NOT killed by ANYONE).

I saw this verse quoted several times. The context clearly shows they refers to those who say "we have killed Him".

 

It is only the Ahmadiyyah sect who believe Jesus was killed,

No. The Ahmadiyyah says he was crucified, but not killed. According to Ahmadiyyah, he died in India. Quite absurd, the arguments given for that rather spurious (to say the least).

 

And I strongly doubt what You said about Shiites is correct. I never heard anything of what You said from a Shiite. But I wonder whether this is going to lure me into a sect discussion... lets drop that point.

 

Now for you Christians, there is a chapter in the Bible that clearly states that the Messiah was NOT killed. It is Revelation 12 of the Bible :

Revelation is a book full of symbols. We may disagree on the symbolism, but to say that You can draw "clear" conclusions from what is not said in a specific chapter in that book is self-delusion.

 

Revelation 12:4 and his tail doth draw the third of the stars of the heaven, and he did cast them to the earth;

Thats about Satan (aka devil, snake, as said in verse 9).

 

and the dragon did stand before the woman

A woman in such books as the revelation (experts speak of "apocalyptic literature") symbolises a city. This city is Jerusalem, to be specific: the old Jerusalem before the destruction in AD 70 (the book was written after this), and it stands for the people God sent Jesus to.

 

who is about to bring forth, that when she may bring forth, her child he may devour; 5 and she brought forth a male child, who is about to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, and caught away was her child unto God and His throne,

Yes, Jesus ascended to heaven. If you take the words literally, this took place right after his birth. But as any reader of that book (it is adressed to Christians) knows, the ascension happened only after many other things have occured.

 

Notice the Dragon did NOT eat the child (so the Messiah was Not killed).

He was not eaten by the devil. This is more than just killing!

 

If it was as you christians say,

Not just as "we Christians" say, but as the very book You are quoting from says. In Revelation 5 you have the (symbolic) description of Jesus after he has died, was resurrected and stands before God's throne.

And if you want to read it in plain language:

Revelation 1:17. When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last,

18. and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.

ÃáãÇ ÑÃíÊå ÓÞØÊ Úäà ÑÌáíå ßãíÊ ÃæÖÚ íÃÃ¥ Çáíãäì Úáíø ÞÇÆáÇ áí áÇ ÊÎà ÇäÇ åæ ÇáÇæá æÇáÂÎÑ .17

æÇáÃí æßäÊ ãíÊÇ æåÇ ÇäÇ Ãíø Çáì ÇÈà ÇáÂÈÃíä Âãíä æáí ãÃÇÊíà ÇáåÇæíÉ æÇáãæÊ. .18

 

then it should have said that the Dragon did eat the child, but the child came out of the dragon's mouth, or something like that.

No. The dragon is not death, but Satan. Jesus "eaten" by the devil means he got a part of the devil, becoming evil - no, that never happened :D

 

Also notice the whole chapter doesnt say anything about this Child (Jesus) being "God's son", but only the son of the Woman (mary/maryam).

The woman is not Marya[m], it's the people God has prepared to send Jesus to.

 

The crucification/resurrection story of Jesus was taken directly from pagan religions,

I know of no pagan religion a crucification could be taken from.

 

and this is the belief of thousands of historians (including many christian historians!).

It has been the belief of some writers about 80 years ago or so, but this theory has been refuted even at the time when I was born :D Besides from authors who copy outdated theories, unaware of what all scholars said in the second half of the 20th century, no one believes this trash anymore. :D

 

May Allah bless 'Eesa al-Maseeh ibn Maryam and may He give us victory through him against the nations of Gog and Magog, and Al-maseeh ad-Dajjal.

Gog and Magog are first mentioned in the book of Ezekiel. ... :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The translation is as close as you will be able to get to the Quran, and various translations say:

004.157

YUSUFALI: That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

PICKTHAL: And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.

SHAKIR: And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.

 

I'm not sure it could be more clear that Isa Son of Maryam was not killed or crucified according to the Quran. What part don't you understand?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The translation is as close as you will be able to get to the Quran, and various translations say:
"We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them,

I have no objections to that statement. When Jesus died on the cross, it were not the Jews that killed Him, but so it was made to appear to them. As Jesus had said:

John 10:17. "For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again.

18. "No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father."

áåÃÇ íÃÈäí ÇáÂÈ áÇäí ÇÖÚ äÃÓí áÂÎÃåÇ ÇíÖÇ. .17

áíÓ ÇÃà íÃÎÃåÇ ãäí Èá ÇÖÚåÇ ÇäÇ ãä ÃÇÊí. áí ÓáØÇä Çä ÇÖÚåÇ æáí ÓáØÇä Çä ÂÎÃåÇ ÇíÖÇ. Ã¥ÃÃ¥ ÇáæÕíÉ ÞÈáÊåÇ ãä ÇÈí. .18

So the contradiction is not between Bible and Qor'an, but between Bible and Muslimic interpretation of the Qor'an.

I understand this interpretation is an old tradition, but how came it about? By tafsir, and what does that exactly mean?

 

I'm not sure it could be more clear that Isa Son of Maryam was not killed or crucified according to the Quran. What part don't you understand?

I rather think You don't understand that according to that verse He was not killed nor crucified by them, i.e. by the Jews. The verse does not say "He didn't die". :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Revelation 12:4 and his tail doth draw the third of the stars of the heaven, and he did cast them to the earth; and the dragon did stand before the woman who is about to bring forth, that when she may bring forth, her child he may devour; 5 and she brought forth a male child, who is about to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, and caught away was her child unto God and His throne,

 

Notice the Dragon did NOT eat the child (so the Messiah was Not killed). If it was as you christians say, then it should have said that the Dragon did eat the child, but the child came out of the dragon's mouth, or something like that. But it clearly states that God took the child up, before the Dragon could eat him!

 

There are dragons in these stories now? Does anyone actually believe in dragons anymore?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why are there dragons in these stories? Does anyone actually believe in dragons anymore?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The translation is as close as you will be able to get to the Quran, and various translations say:

I'm not sure it could be more clear that Isa Son of Maryam was not killed or crucified according to the Quran. What part don't you understand?

 

Salaam,

 

Brother I am confused as well, the Quran clearly says that he (Jessus PBUH) was not crusified. Yet, he keep asking for proof that in the Quran it says, that Jessus (PBUH) was not crusified. Its plain english, het doesn't want to understand it, why?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dear Looking by

 

If Jesus did not die and return from the dead, then why would so many of his followers die for what they knew to be a lie? The Apostles surely wouldn't have subjected themselves to torture and death had they not believed that Jesus was the Christ.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You know...there is NO PROOF even in the BIBLE that Jesus (pbuh) died! ALL of Jesus (pbuh's) diciples FLED and there was NO EYE WITNESS to the crucifixtion of Jesus (pbuh) by the diciples OR anyone else who wrote the bible. It was only from hear-say.

 

After his alleged crucifixtion, the diciples get scared because Jesus (pbuh) appears to them ALIVE. And they thought he was dead because they HEARD he died and did not see it. After that point, Jesus pbuh is taken up to heaven.

 

What God tells us in the Quran, as explained above, is that it was not Jesus who was put on the cross but only appeared to be him. God would never let such an amazing person, the messiah, Christ, one of the mighty messengers of God be disgraced, and humiliated and die in such a manner.

 

So what we say is that Jesus was never crucified. He is alive and will come back.

 

So why would many of his followers die for what they knew to be a lie? Because it was and still is sadly based on conjecture, a statement, opinion, or conclusion based on GUESSWORK.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bismillahirrahmaanerraheem

 

The "Lamb" does not only refer to Jesus. This can be proven from the Bible itself. For example, in Revelation 13 it says that the Beast (beast of the earth) will have two horns like A LAMB and the mouth of a Dragon!

So did Jesus have two horns? If not, the lamb must be referring to someone else ( I know who, but will not say so as it would change the whole topic).

 

All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.

Rev 13:8

Was Jesus slain since the foundation/creation of the world?

 

I wont go into deep discussions about the Lamb, but the lamb simply means a righteous servant of God. Jesus was a Lamb, and so was Abel, and so was Mohammad, peace be upon them all.

 

The crucifiction story in the Bible has many many problems, such as contradictions in the story, and the fact that some parts dont make sense.

 

And all those who think the Bible has not been tampered with, I can show you a recent alteration in the Bible! Read Revelation 11...it says Jesus was crucified, right? WRONG! If you read YLT (Youngs Literal Translation) you will see that this sentence is an addition that was originally a commentary by a scribe, and nothing else! So this sentence was added to the book of revelation despite the warning at the end that whoever changes this book will be condemned! And if this change has been made in the past few hundred years, how many more changes have happened before, further in the past?

Scholars agree that the New Testament was not originally in Greek, but the oldest Gospels and other NT books today are Greek... what happened to the Originals?

 

The story in Revelation 12 fits in very well with the Quran. We interpret these symbolic events using the Quran, you do so using some other parts of the Bible (parts which we dont believe in). We have a book that is purified from all errors and is perfect and cannot be changed by the pass of time. The Quran confirms what is correct in the Bible and also shows it's errors, and it is the final book of Allah. Those looking for an unaltered truth will never find any unless they come to the Quran so that they can see which parts of the previous scriptures are correct, and which parts were altered by the scribes.

 

The Bible makes it clear that it CAN be changed, because it CONDEMNS THOSE WHO WILL CHANGE IT (at the end of book of revelation) while the Quran states that none can change it, and this has been the case after 1400 years.

 

Peace unto those who follow the Guidance

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Twice in the IF I was told Jesus dis not die on the cross. When I asked for evidence, a verse from the Qor'an was cited that stated, if You look close on it, that when Jesus died, it were not the Jews that killed Him. This is in accordings with the teaching of the Bible, so this verse is no evidence against Jesus dying on the cross.

 

After pointing it out, it seems no one could bring another verse from the Qor'an on that topic, there was just silence, if my memory doesn't betray me. So it seems there is no statement in the Qor'an that speaks against the death and resurrection of Jesus.

 

So, why do Muslim believe that Jesus didn't die on the cross? Is there a hadith about it, or is it pure invention by some Islamic scholars?

 

 

There are so many contradictions of the New Testament regarding the so-called crucifixion (or cru-fiction) of Jesus so the contradictions have invalidated the so-called crucifixion of Jesus. For example the writers of the Acts claimed that Jesus was hanged on a tree but the writers of the Gospels claimed that Jesus was crucfied on the cross. How could Jesus die at the two different places at the same time? This contradiction happened because the writers and their witnesses did not witness the so-called the crucifixion of Jesus! Can you win a case by giving contradictory statements in the court? The Christians claim that Jesus was resurrected but the Bible itself say that there is to be no resurrection of the dead Job 7:9/ Eccl 9:5/ Is 26:14. The Gospel of Barnaba says that it was Judas who was crucified to death for betraying Jesus. How did it happen? God made Judas to look like Jesus!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Assalamu Alaykum wa Rahmatullahee wa Barakatu/Peace

 

God Almighty does not have to repeat every information many times. Jesus was taken completely without any injury with body and soul. No one was able to harm him, neither the Jews nor the Romans. This is a pure fact and the inevidable truth. The bible shows us the event of the crucifiction but they do not show that it was Jesus himself who was Jesus. All four accounts of his crucifiction are different. If you ever read the Apocalypse of Peter then you would know that even early Christians believed that he was not crucified.

 

You wish he died but we Muslims love and believe that he is alive and that Allah never allowed anyone to harm him at all.

 

Your problem is the Qur'an not Jesus and his Crucifixion. If the Qur'an and Hadeeth were full of evidence you would not believe. You don't accept the Qur'an as the Divine Revelation. This is your problem. If you solve this problem then the other questions would not be asked anymore. Al-Qur'an is the only Divine Book we have on earth and this book came down as a guidance for mankind. It was sent down not to approve the Babylonian falsehood of the Roman Church, which you follow, but to correct the falsehood created by the deviant Church People. The Jews say this and the Church people said that and the whole world was misguided; thus, the world was thirsty for guidance. Al-Qur'an is the Inevidable Truth and the Criterion. If you do not believe in this book you are misguided and then you cannot have a share in the afterlife except Raging Fire. The path you are chosing right now is the path toward the Raging Fire. It is a place where you wear molten copper continuously as a garment and where the punishment only gets worse.

 

You do not have any other guidance except Al-Qur'an and the Sunnah of the prophet Muhammad, salla Allahu alayhi wa sallam.

 

I urge you to believe that the is not God but Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah.

 

Additionally, you believe and say that Jesus is the Slave and Servant of God, that Paradise is True and the Hellfire is true.

 

Decide to live by Al-Qur'an and the Sunnah and abandon to follow the Bible which is full of misguiding information which was alterated by those who worshipped Mary and Jesus, and who you do not consider Christian, the Roman Latin Catholics Church and the Greek Catholic Church. The Bible is full of confusion and misinformation, and information that defamed the honour of the prophets. Those who altered the bible where those who neglected the prophets and they hated them and they would do whatever it takes to destroy the reputation of every prophet, including Jesus and John the Baptist. They were not successful, because we have Qur'an, too bad. Only Qur'an and Hadeeth preserved the honour of the prophets.

 

In the bible, the prophet Sulayman, alayhi salam, became an idol-worshipper and ran after women and they let him astray. Qur'an prove us that King Solomon never worshipped idols and he never committed a sin.

 

In the bible, King David committed adultery but Qur'an disapprove that. In Qur'an the honour of him is restored. The false story of adultery was not included habhazardly but there was a reason. If King David committed adultery or fornication, then his lineage is impure especially according to the Pharisees and Talmudians. The lineage from David to Jesus is impure and from fornication. The lineage of the Kings after David were from the fornication. All the lineage became illitimate and therefore no one has to honour the family of David. Solomon was the product of the fornication of David, astaghfirullah, so that the Pharisees do not have to follow him anymore, because Solomon would be an illitimate child, a child out of fornication.

 

Gnosticism had a great influence on perserving and editing the bible and there falsehood is included in the bible, believe it or not. I believe that the bible is more contaminated with Sethianist Gnosticism falsehood than the Gospel of Thomas or the Gospel of Philip or the Apocalypse of Paul.

 

Isn't is a crime and a great evil to believe in the bible?

You love the bible dispite these horrendous demontage of the reputation of the prophets, but you disbelieve in Qur'an which brings back the honour to the prophets that they deserve. There is no single bad news about a prophet in the Qur'an.

 

Your choice:

 

Qur'an or Bible (a folder of books selected by those people who discussed if a woman has a soul or not!!!!!!!!!/the bible is full of the Falsehood of Gnosticism)?

 

Peace

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
There are dragons in these stories now? Does anyone actually believe in dragons anymore?

The book of revelation is full of symbols, the dragon is a symbol for the devil who rules this world until he will be punished by God.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Peace from our Lord,

You know...there is NO PROOF even in the BIBLE that Jesus (pbuh) died! ALL of Jesus (pbuh's) diciples FLED and there was NO EYE WITNESS to the crucifixtion of Jesus (pbuh) by the diciples OR anyone else who wrote the bible. It was only from hear-say.

 

John 19:33. but coming to Jesus, when they saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs.

34. But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.

35. And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you also may believe.

36. For these things came to pass to fulfill the Scripture, "NOT A BONE OF HIM SHALL BE BROKEN."

[underlining added]

æÇãÇ íÓæÚ ÃáãÇ ÌÇÃæÇ Çáíå áã íßÓÑæÇ ÓÇÞíå áÇäåã ÑÃæå Þà ãÇÊ. .33

áßä æÇÃÃÇ ãä ÇáÚÓßÑ ØÚä ÌäÈå ÈÃÑÈÉ æááæÞÊ ÎÑÌ Ãã æãÇÃ. .34

æÇáÃí ÚÇíä Ôåà æÔåÇÃÊå ÃÞ æåæ íÚáã Çäå íÞæá ÇáÃÞ áÊÄãäæÇ ÇäÊã. .35

áÇä Ã¥ÃÇ င áíÊã ÇáßÊÇÈ ÇáÞÇÆá ÚÙã áÇ íßÓÑ ãäå. .36

You see, there have been people who saw it.

 

After his alleged crucifixtion, the diciples get scared because Jesus (pbuh) appears to them ALIVE. And they thought he was dead because they HEARD he died and did not see it. After that point, Jesus pbuh is taken up to heaven.

They heard it from those who were present.

 

What God tells us in the Quran, as explained above, is that it was not Jesus who was put on the cross but only appeared to be him.

Thats Your interpretation. The Pickthal translation cited by (www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.gawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?s=&showtopic=28845&view=findpost&p=295017"]Allah's slave[/url] says something different.

 

So what we say is that Jesus was never crucified. He is alive and will come back.

In the OT this was prophecied: the servant of God will suffer for our sins. Who are You to declare that God will not d9o what he has revealed to his prophets?

 

PS: I wonder why I got no notification of your post....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Peace from our Lord,

So did Jesus have two horns?

Nope, You seem not to understand figurative language.

 

Was Jesus slain since the foundation/creation of the world?

You got the wrong translation, the translation I usually cite here says:

Revelation 13:8. All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain

ÃÓíÓÌà áå ÌãíÚ ÇáÓÇßäíä Úáì ÇáÇÑÖ ÇáÃíä áíÓÊ ÇÓãÇÄåã ãßÊæÈÉ ãäà ÊÃÓíÓ ÇáÚÇáã Ãí ÓÃÑ ÃíÇÉ ÇáÎÑæà ÇáÃí ÃÈÃ. .8

From a strictly linguistic viewpoint, both translations are possible. Please chose the sensible one.

 

I wont go into deep discussions about the Lamb, but the lamb simply means a righteous servant of God. Jesus was a Lamb, and so was Abel, and so was Mohammad, peace be upon them all.

Revelation 5:12. saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing."

ÞÇÆáíä ÈÕæÊ ÚÙíã ãÓÊÃÞ åæ ÇáÎÑæà ÇáãÃÈæà Çä íÃÎà ÇáÞÃÑÉ æÇáÛäì æÇáÃßãÉ æÇáÞæÉ æÇáßÑÇãÉ æÇáãÌà æÇáÈÑßÉ. .12

The same words that are used to praise God in Revelation 4:11.

 

The crucifiction story in the Bible has many many problems, such as contradictions in the story, and the fact that some parts dont make sense.

You gave no details how am I supposed to answer that?

 

And all those who think the Bible has not been tampered with, I can show you a recent alteration in the Bible! Read Revelation 11

Which verse? I guess V.8.

 

...it says Jesus was crucified, right? WRONG! If you read YLT (Youngs Literal Translation) you will see that this sentence is an addition that was originally a commentary by a scribe, and nothing else!

I don't see anything like that in the YLT as provided on the net at the (www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_unbound.biola.edu/"]unbound Bible site[/url]. Who told You that nonsense?

 

Scholars agree that the New Testament was not originally in Greek, but the oldest Gospels and other NT books today are Greek... what happened to the Originals?

The Gospels books were originally greek, the Pauline letters were originally Greek, indeed almost all scholars agree that every book of the NT was originally in Greek. The only book I heard a different opinion (by one scholar, not by the majority) is revelation.

 

We have a book that is purified from all errors

Purified? So it did contain errors at an earlier time? Who purified the errors out of that book? Uthman?

 

PS: I wonder why I got no notification about this posting of You.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

Sign in to follow this  

×