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Why Do You Think Jesus Didn't Die On The Cross?

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Was Jesus Nailed to the Cross, but he did not Die on the Cross?

 

[...]

 

According to the "Swoon Theory" advocated by Sheikh Ahmed Deedat and discussed at length under the article The Qur'an does not say; *JESUS WAS SUBSTITUTED* on the CROSS on this web site, Jesus was nailed on the Cross but due to the short period of him being on the Cross for the reasons explained below, he simply fainted, went into a comma and did not die on the Cross .

Obviously, the Muslims are divided on this and have no clear knowledge about this subject.

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PropellerAds

Peace from out Lord,

 

somehow I missed a notification of reply, I now see there are several postings here that demand answers.

 

I refute your statements by showing the verses that say that Jesus was hanged on a tree while some Gospels claim that he was crucifed on the CROSS !!!!

There is no verse that sais what You claim.

 

King James Version (KJV) Acts 5 :30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a TREE.

The word used in the original means wood, that may denote a tree, but it may denote a wooden structure like the Roman cross.

 

It seems to me that you are lying by twisting the verses of the New Testament!

No. The version I used to cite here (American Standard version) said cross. I am a German, and I know no German version that says tree. I just told You what I have been taught my whole life long, and I added what I have learned about the original language.

 

The differences, misintepretations and mistranslations, errors and the contradictions between the Greek versions and the English versions of the New Testaments have proven that the New Testament is corrupt and unreliable! After all Jesus did not preach in Greek!

And he definitely did not preach in English. If You think the differences are important, You may call the English versions unreliable, but there is no reason to call the original they were translated from unreliable.

 

Therefore the so-called crucifixion of Jesus did not exist at all due to the contradictions of the New Testament!

By that method I could use contradictions in the German translation of Qor'an to prove Muhammad never existed :D Stange logic.

 

After all the earliest Gospel was written more than 70 years after Jesus was gone so he was not there to correct errors and contradictions of the NT!!

No, the first Gospel was written less than 70 Years after Jesus was born. Now it is You who twists the facts.

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Peace from our Lord,

 

I dont understand figurative language you say? Do YOU understand? Why havent you shown the "true" meaning of the "lamb with two horns"??

OK, you can read it in John:

John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming towards him and said, Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

29

æóÃöí Çáúíóæúãö ÇáÊøóÇáöí ÑóÃóì íõæÃóäøóÇ íóÓõæÚó ÂÊöíÇð äóÃúæóåõ¡ ÃóåóÊóÃó ÞóÇÆöáÇð: «åóÃóÇ åõæó Ãóãóáõ Çááåö ÇáøóÃöí íõÒöíáõ ÎóØöíÆóÉó ÇáúÚóÇáóãö.

The designation of jesus as lamb refers to Him being slain on behalf of our sins, so that we get forgiveness:

Romans 4:25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

25

ÇáøóÃöí ÃõÓúáöãó áöáúãóæúÊö ãöäú ÃóÌúáö ãóÚóÇÕöíäóÇ Ëõãøó ÃõÞöíãó ãöäú ÃóÌúáö ÊóÈúÑöíÑöäóÇ.

 

Just because same words are used doesnt mean the Lamb is God, because the book of Revelation itself distinguishes between the Lamb and God in Revelation 7.

It is not just same word, but the same type of worship.

 

Let me explain YLT for you. In YLT the COMMENTARIES and INTERPRETATIONS are put inside brackets or between lines, like so -- and ()

The part about Jesus being crucified is inside brackets too, which shows they were words of a scribe and not a part of the Bible. The original scribe probably didnt mean it to be part of the text, but for some reason it later became part of the text...

I usually read bibles which do not have commentaries in it. Please explain what do You mean, there are passages in the Bible that speak of crucication, that are no commentary.

 

I googled for YLt, found Young's literal translation, and verifid that it does contain the reports about the crucification of Jesus. What I did not find were your brackets...

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Peace from our Lord,

 

hang on , if the son can be killed, i.e., if the father was helpless enough to not helping his own son...then one day the father too will be killed...

You forgot that the crucification was not against the will of the father, it has been prophecied before.

 

Luke 24:25 He said to them, How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Did not the Christ have to suffer these things and then enter his glory? 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

25

ÃóÞóÇáó áóåõãóÇ: «íóÇÞóáöíáóíö ÇáúÃóåúãö æóÈóØöíÆóíö ÇáúÞóáúÈö Ãöí ÇáÅöíãóÇäö ÈöÌóãöíÚö ãóÇ Êóßóáøóãó Èöåö ÇáÃóäúÈöíóÇÃõ! 26 ÃóãóÇ ßóÇäó áÇóÈõÃøó Ãóäú íõÚóÇäöíó ÇáúãóÓöíÃõ åóÃöåö ÇáÂáÇóãó Ëõãøó íóÃúÎõáó Åöáóì ãóÌúÃöåö¿» 27 Ëõãøó ÃóÎóÃó íõÃóÓøöÑõ áóåõãóÇ¡ ãõäúØóáöÞÇð ãöäú ãõæÓóì æóãöäó ÇáÃóäúÈöíóÇÃö ÌóãöíÚÇð¡ ãóÇ æóÑóÃó Úóäúåõ Ãöí ÌóãöíÚö ÇáúßõÊõÈö.

It happened according to God's plan, so why should we think there will something happen contrary to God's will?

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But nowhere in the Bible does Jesus(AS) says that he was resurrected.

He said it:

Revelation 1: 17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades

17

ÃóáóãøóÇ ÑóÃóíúÊõåõ ÇÑúÊóãóíúÊõ ÚöäúÃó ÞóÃóãóíúåö ßóÇáúãóíúÊö¡ ÃóáóãóÓóäöí ÈöíóÃöåö Çáúíõãúäóì æóÞóÇáó: «áÇó ÊóÎóÃú! ÃóäóÇ ÇáÃóæøóáõ æóÇáÂÎöÑõ¡ 18 ÃóäóÇ ÇáúÃóíøõ. ßõäúÊõ ãóíúÊÇð¡ æóáóßöäú åóÇ ÃóäóÇ Ãóíøñ Åöáóì ÃóÈóÃö ÇáÂÈöÃöíäó. æóáöí ãóÃóÇÊöíÃõ ÇáúãóæúÊö æóÇáúåóÇæöíóÉö.

 

While they usually don't have any knowledge on the Torah and the Injeel, I infact have studied them very well.

This did not prevent You for overlooking the verse I quoted above.

 

But, You seem to ignore the verses where Jesus prophesied His resurrection. :strange:

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Assalamu Alaykum wa rahmatullah wa barakatuh

Brother, the verse clearly states that he was NEITHER killed, NOR crucified.

No, this your interpretation. The verse says the Jews did not crucify Him. This is not the same than saying he was not crucified. When You say Muslims did not kill Kennedy, You don't claim Kennedy was not killed.

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hmmm interesting....

 

So what you brothers and sisters are talking about is the fact whether Jesus (PBUH) was crucified or not?

 

before i start my answer, we all should understand that it is a common belief in Christianity ,that the person should believe in the "fact" that Jesus Christ (PBUH) was crucified in order to get Salvation. Therefore, no Crucifixion, no Resurrection, No Christianitiandom

 

In Mathew 12:40. we are told

 

"For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

 

Taking the above verse in the Bible, let us analyze the matter....

 

Let us take the 1st part..

Was Jonah Dead or Alive when he was thrown in to the sea?

Now we get an unanimous answer A-L-I-V-E-

 

A fish comes and swallows him. was he Dead or Alive. We all say A-L-I-V-E

 

From the belly of the whale, he prays to God? Does a dead man pray? NO so he was a-l-i-v-e

on the 3rd day, the fish vomits him out ... was he dead or alive again the answer is we all say he was A-L-I-V-E....

 

Miracle of Miracle, All three Jews, Christians and Muslims all say he was A-L-I-V-E

 

For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish,

 

From here, we should ask the question?how was Jonah in the belly of the whale for three days and three nights? Dead or Alive?

 

All Muslims, Christians and Jews give an unanimous answer A-L-I-V-E-

 

Now how was Jesus (PBUH) in the Tomb Dead or Alive?

 

OVER A THOUSAND MILLION CHRITIAS OF EVERY CHURCH OR DENOMINATION now give an unanimous answer that he was D-E-A-D :D

 

now was that the like Jonah or unlike Jonah in your language?

 

Jesus said that he would be like Jonah and his infatuated followers say he is Unlike Jonah :D

 

Who is lying, Jesus or his followers? I leave the answer to you!

Edited by vishah

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Peace from our Lord,

 

Allah tells us that they think they saw that. He made it appear this way to them and closed their hearts because they were in rebellion against Him and the message that He sent the prophet Jesus with.

You seem to confuse the diciples of Christ with the unbelieving Jews. The verse in the Qor'an does speak about Jews who thought they did it. This cannot be a description of diciples who never thought they did it!

 

So in this argument no one can win. You beleive what you beleive because of the Bible says so, and we beleive what we beleive because the Qur'an says so.

No, because you think the Qor'an says so. But as I said, it is ambiguious what it says. No-one in this thread made an attempt prove that the interpretation I put forward contradicted the (Arabic!) wording, some tried to refute me by citing some translations, that's all.

 

Now, I am the daughter of protestant non-denominational Christians.

"Protestant" and "non-denominotional" are a contradiction. If You were non-denominotional, you were not of the protestant denomination. Maybe you belonged to a denomination that thinks it is non-denominational (I have a specific group of denominations in mind, but I may be wrong).

 

My father was a pastor for 5 years and a missionary for 10. If any one has been thorougly emersed in Christianity, its doctrines, its history, the Bible and its commentaries it's me. And yet, here I am today a Muslim.

Before I turned to Christ, I have been "emersed in Christianity" from my easly childhood. Not as much as You, you seem to know more about church history, or commentaries, than me, if I understand your desription correctly. But I have been emersed. Yet I did not belong to Christ ...

 

Knowing is not enough, logic is not everything. A faith just by words and thoughts is a dead faith, as you may remember from the Bible. You said nothing that indicated you ever had a living faith in our Lord.

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Dear Looking By,

 

As far as I understand, both the Jews ans those of the disciples who perverted the message of the prophet Jesus believe themselves to be eye-witnesses of the prophet Jesus' crucifixion. Regardless of who wanted him crucified, both groups believe they saw the same end result (Qur'an 4:157-159). However, you are correct that the Qur'an only mentions the Jews who rejected the prophet Jesus and demanded his execution. I will check with a scholar on the issue of what the Biblical disciples saw or did not see on this account.

However, one must agree that both groups were in rebellion against God and rejected the prophet Jesus' message. The unbelieving Jews (as you call them) because they rejected that the prophet Jesus was the Messiah and a prophet of God. The disciples because they tried to deify Jesus despite the fact that he made it clear to them that he was only a prophet (Qur'an **5:116**, 4:171, 5:72-75, ). Again, when I refer to the disciples I am referring to those that are the authors of the New Testament gospels, as there were some true disciples of the prophet Jesus who did not pervert his message if I understand this correctly. (Qur'an 3:52-55, 5:111).

 

To clarify a Protestant non-denominational upbringing. It's actually quite clear. Protestant meaning that my parents were not Catholic. Non-denominational meaning that they didn't associate with a particular Protestant denomination (i.e. baptists, Presbyterians, Pentecostals, Lutherans, etc). Their beliefs were theologically closest to the baptists'.

 

 

I have always had a sincere faith in God, but what I did not have, before Islam, was a true path to Him.

.

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Salam,

 

Obviously, the Muslims are divided on this and have no clear knowledge about this subject.

 

I challenge you to find one Muslim in your neighbourhood that actually believes this nonsense. 99.9% of Muslims profess that Christ (as) was literally elevated unto his Lord and Saviour (Jehovah) without suffering a crucifixion.

 

The verse reads he (i.e Jesus) was not slayed "nor" crucified. The Arabic word used in reference to the crucifixion inherently differs from the English term "crucify." If we take Mahid's heretic interpretation, we are challenged by the presence of both "slayed" and "crucified." Observe the mention of the word "nor" in the accurate translations of the four most famous Qur'anic renderings into English:

 

04. 157. That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

 

04. 158. Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.

 

(Abdullah Yusuf Ali)

 

04. 157. And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.

 

04. 158. But Allah took him up unto Himself. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise.

 

(Marmaduke Pickthall)

 

04. 157. And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.

 

04. 158. Nay! Allah took him up to Himself; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.

 

(MH Shakir)

 

04. 158. And because of their saying (in boast), "We killed Messiah Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allah," - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of Iesa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man), and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not (i.e. Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary):

 

04. 158. But Allah raised him (Iesa (Jesus)) up (with his body and soul) unto Himself (and he is in the heavens). And Allah is Ever All-Powerful, All-Wise.

 

(Mohsin Khan)

 

 

As ever,

 

Averroes

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Peace and blessings, LB,

 

I am also curious of your commentary on Hebrews 5: 7 as referenced by Joseph.

 

Thanks,

 

Averroes

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Of course jews didn't kill Jesus. Romans did. :D

 

I skimmed through pages 2 and 3 so excuse me if this has already been addressed, but why exactly is it thought that Jesus did not die. I mean what would be the significance of him not dieing? Is there any reasoning behind it? It just seems like it defeats the whole purpose if he didn't die.

 

Another interesting point is a theory that is talked about in a book called the "Passover Plot"

 

It talks about how Jesus and some of his disciples purposely got him arrested, and then when he was on the cross gave him a drug of some sort to make him appear dead. That way they could take him down and low and behold some time later he would appear revived. Of course this plan would be foiled by a soldier who speared jesus on the cross which was quite unusual as crucified people were usually not speared or anything of that sort.

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Peace from our Lord,

 

As far as I understand, both the Jews ans those of the disciples who perverted the message of the prophet Jesus believe themselves to be eye-witnesses of the prophet Jesus' crucifixion.

Why do you think it was perverted?

 

However, one must agree that both groups were in rebellion against God and rejected the prophet Jesus' message.
No, they didn't reject His message, it's you.

 

The disciples because they tried to deify Jesus despite the fact that he made it clear to them that he was only a prophet (Qur'an **5:116**, 4:171, 5:72-75, ).

But Jesus has made clear that he was more than a prophet:

John 8:54 Jesus replied, If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55 Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and keep his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad. 57 You are not yet fifty years old, the Jews said to him, and you have seen Abraham! 58 I tell you the truth, Jesus answered, before Abrar]ham was born, I am! 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

54

ÃóÌóÇÈóåõãú: «Åöäú ßõäúÊõ ÃõãóÌøöÃõ äóÃúÓöí¡ ÃóáóíúÓó ãóÌúÃöí ÈöÔóíúÃò. áßöäøó ÃóÈöí åõæó ÇáøóÃöí íõãóÌøöÃõäöí. æóÃóäúÊõãú ÊóÞõæáõæäó Åöäøóåõ Åöáóåõßõãú¡ 55 ãóÚó Ãóäøóßõãú áÇó ÊóÚúÑöÃõæäóåõ. ÃóãøóÇ ÃóäóÇ ÃóÃóÚúÑöÃõåõ. æóáóæú ÞõáúÊõ áóßõãú Åöäøöí áÇó ÃóÚúÑöÃõåõ áóßõäúÊõ ãöËúáóßõãú ßóÇÃöÈÇð. áßöäøöí ÃóÚúÑöÃõåõ æóÃóÚúãóáõ ÈößóáöãóÊöåö. 56 ÃóÈõæßõãú ÅöÈúÑóÇåöíãõ ÇÈúÊóåóÌó áöÑóÌóÇÆöåö Ãóäú íóÑóì íóæúãöí¡ ÃóÑóÂåõ æóÃóÑöÃó» 57 ÃóÞóÇáó áóåõ ÇáúíóåõæÃõ: «áóíúÓó áóßó ãöäó ÇáúÚõãúÑö ÎóãúÓõæäó ÓóäóÉð ÈóÚúÃõ ÃóßóíúÃó ÑóÃóíúÊó ÅöÈúÑóÇåöíãó¿» 58 ÃóÌóÇÈóåõãú: ÇáúÃóÞøó ÇáúÃóÞøó ÃóÞõæáõ áóßõãú: Åöäøóäöí ßóÇÆöäñ ãöäú ÞóÈúáö Ãóäú íóßõæäó ÅöÈúÑóÇåöíãõ». 59 ÃóÑóÃóÚõæÇ ÃöÌóÇÑóÉð áöíóÑúÌõãõæåõ¡ æóáßöäøóåõ ÃóÎúÃóì äóÃúÓóåõ æóÎóÑóÌó ãöäó Çáúåóíúßóá

 

Again, when I refer to the disciples I am referring to those that are the authors of the New Testament gospels,
All four agree and write of the same Gospel in their books. This Gospel was confirmed by the miracles performed by Jesus and the apostles, and we have been warned not to leave it:

 

Galatians 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

8

æóáóßöäú¡ ÃóÊøóì áóæú ÈóÔøóÑúäóÇßõãú äóÃúäõ¡ Ãóæú ÈóÔøóÑóßõãú ãóáÇóßñ ãöäó ÇáÓøóãóÇÃö¡ ÈöÛóíúÑö ÇáÅöäúÌöíáö ÇáøóÃöí ÈóÔøóÑúäóÇßõãú Èöåö¡ Ãóáúíóßõäú ãóáúÚõæäÇð! 9 æóßóãóÇ ÓóÈóÞó Ãóäú ÞõáúäóÇ¡ ÃõßóÑøö Ñõ ÇáúÞóæúáó ÇáÂäó ÃóíúÖÇð: Åöäú ßóÇäó ÃóÃóÃñ íõÈóÔøöÑõßõãú ÈöÅöäúÌöíáò ÛóíúÑö ÇáøóÃöí ÞóÈöáúÊõãõæåõ¡ Ãóáúíóßõäú ãóáúÚõæäÇð

Apart from wishful thinking, there is no evidence that the writers of the New Testament deviated from the teachings of Jesus. And there are no other books from the time of Jesus and the apostles. All other Christian writings are younger, either dependent on the New testament (as the "Gospel harmony" by Tatian), or a sectarian deviation. If you reject the New Testament as we have it, there is no other book you can refer to as revealed through Jesus.

To clarify a Protestant non-denominational upbringing. It's actually quite clear. Protestant meaning that my parents were not Catholic. Non-denominational meaning that they didn't associate with a particular Protestant denomination (i.e. baptists, Presbyterians, Pentecostals, Lutherans, etc). Their beliefs were theologically closest to the baptists'.

Seems I learned some English: the word "denomination" is too narrow to be applied to protestantism? On the other hand, not every non-Catholic Christian is a Protestant.

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Do you see the relationship between the word 'They said, “We killed the Messiah Jesus' and 'the likeness of him was put on another man (and they killed that man)' ???

now look on this translation:

"That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of God";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) know ledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-"

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetsacred-texts(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/isl/quran/00422.htm"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetsacred-texts(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/isl/quran/00422.htm[/url]

 

Nothing of another man there, this is interpretation.

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Now how was Jesus (PBUH) in the Tomb Dead or Alive?

 

OVER A THOUSAND MILLION CHRISTIANS OF EVERY CHURCH OR DENOMINATION now give an unanimous answer that he was D-E-A-D :sl:

 

now was that the like Jonah or unlike Jonah in your language?

 

Jesus said that he would be like Jonah and his infatuated followers say he is Unlike Jonah :sl:

 

Who is lying, Jesus or his followers? I leave the answer to you!

 

Therefore, if Jesus (PBUH) died, the prophecy remains unfulfilled

Edited by vishah

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If you reject the New Testament as we have it, there is no other book you can refer to as revealed through Jesus.

 

What about the Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Phillip and all those books destroyed by the Christian Church?

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Assalamu Alaikum

 

Please watch this 3hr debate on the crucifixion by Ahmed Deedat:

 

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showtopic=36983"]Crucifixion: Fact Or Fiction?[/url]

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What about the Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Phillip and all those books destroyed by the Christian Church?

 

How many types of New testament are there? ... so even then, will any of u claim that all of those versions which we now see today are from Jesus, or from people who modified it? even if they contradict with each other

Edited by vishah

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Imagine that a God being put on the cross by humans.... lol..

 

Suppose, there was a very kind, merciful, loving King. But his servents are the worst. They steal, rapes, kills, tell lies etc... and used to do these kind of things. But he had a very nice, obedient, truthful, servent whom the king loves.. One day, the king killed him and told his servents. You all beleive that I killed him for all your sins. For anyone who beleives in his death, shall be forgiven. Imagin a King killing his most loving servent, for others sin?

THIS IS UNBELIEVEABLE.

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Assalamu Alaikum!,

 

 

The Qur'an states in Surah 4:157 that Jesus was not crucified: "And their [Jews'] boasting: 'We killed Messiah Jesus, Son of Mary the Apostle of Allah, but they [Jews] killed him not, nor crucified him ..."

 

 

Let's look at the biblical passages that support this conclusion,

 

1. On the cross, Jesus beseeched God for help: Matthew 27:46: "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" In Luke 22:42, it is recounted: "Saying, Father if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but shine, be done." (This cup is the cup of death.)

 

2. Jesus' prayer not to die on the cross was accepted by God, according to Luke, the author of Hebrews, and James. Thus, how could he die on the cross?: Luke 22:43: "And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him." It means that an angel assured him that God would not leave him helpless: Hebrews 5:7: "Who in the days of his flesh, when he [Jesus] had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared."

 

Jesus' prayers were "heard," which means that they were answered in a positive way by God: James 5:16: "... The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." Jesus himself said in Matthew 7:7-10: "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth, and to him who knocketh it shall be opened. Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?" If all of Jesus' prayers were accepted by God, including his prayer not to die on the cross, how could he still die on the cross?

 

3. His legs were not broken by the Roman soldiers: John 19:32-33: "Then came the soldiers, and broke the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him. But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they broke not his legs." Can you rely on these soldiers' assertion that Jesus was dead, or did they want to save him out of their belief that he was really innocent?

 

4. If Jesus died on the cross, his blood would clot and thus no blood would have gushed out of his body when his side was pierced. But the Gospel states that blood and water came out: John 19:34: "But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water."

 

5. When the Pharisees asked Jesus for a sign of his true mission, he answered: Matthew 12:40: "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly, so shall the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." Disregard the time factor, which was also not three days and three nights but one day (Saturday, daytime only) and two nights (Friday night and Saturday night). Was Jonas alive in the belly of the whale?

 

answer "yes"

 

Jonas still alive when he was vomited out of the belly the whale

 

Then Jesus was still alive, as he prophesied.

 

6. Jesus himself stated that he didn't die on the cross. Early Sunday morning Mary Magdalene went to the sepulchre, which was empty. She saw somebody standing who looked like a gardener. After a conversation, she realized that he was Jesus and wanted to touch him. Jesus said, as recounted in John 20:17: "Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father ..." "Touch me not" perhaps because the fresh wound would hurt him. "I am not yet ascended to my Father" means that he was still alive, because when somebody dies he goes back to the Creator. This was the strongest proof and was admitted by Jesus himself.

 

7. After the alleged crucifixion, the disciples thought that he was not the same Jesus in body but in spirit, because resurrected bodies are "in spirit."

 

Jesus himself said in the Bible: that they are equal to angels.

In Luke 20: 34-36: "And answering said unto them: 'The children of the world marry, and are given in marriage. But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and then resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage. Neither can they die any more for they are equal unto the angels, and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection."'

 

Then Jesus convinced them that he was the same person by letting them touch his hands and feet. As they could not believe him yet, he asked for meat to show them that he still ate like any living individual. Read Luke 24:36-41: "And as they [the disciples] thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them: 'Peace be unto you.' But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them: 'Why are ye troubled, and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see, for a spins hath not flesh and bones, as ye see that I have.' And when he had thus spoken, he showed them his hands and his feet. And while they yet believed not for Joy, and wondered, he said unto them: 'Have ye here any meat?' And they gave him a piece of broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. And he took it, and did eat before them."

 

8. If you still believe that he died on the cross, then he was a false prophet and accursed of God according to these passages: beuteronomy 13:5: "And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death ..."; Deuteronomy 21:22-23: "And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree: His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance."

 

To believe in his death on the cross is to discredit his prophethood. The Jews claimed that they killed Jesus on the cross in order to portray him as a false prophet. Christians believe in the crucifixion, for it is necessary for their doctrine of redemption of sin and, consequently, have to accept the accursedness of Jesus, too. This Christian belief opposes the Bible's teaching in Hosea 6:6: "For I desired mercy and not sacrifice, and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings." It also opposes Jesus' own teaching in Matthew 9:13: "But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice ..." Again Jesus said in Matthew 12:7: "But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless."

 

Paul was the one who taught the resurrection: Acts 17:18: "... And some [Jews] said: 'What will this babbler say?' To others, He [Paul] seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods, because he preached unto them Jesus and the resurrection." Paul, who never saw Jesus, also admitted that the resurrection was his gospel (II Timothy 2:8): "Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel." He was also the first one to declare Jesus the Son of God: Acts 9:20: "And straightway he [Paul] preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God." So Christianity is not a teaching of Jesus but of Paul.

 

(Source:Christian - Muslim Dialogue

by H. M. Baagil, M.D.)

 

Wassalam,

NTH.

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I dont understand how christians are so blind !

 

god is eternal and does not die, if jesus is really his son like you claim, what makes you think god's son dies ?

 

shouldnt god's son be stronger than the average man today and 2000 years ago ?

christians please think how some romans surrounded with my cousins ( jews) could undermine god's son like u claim ?

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But Jesus has made clear that he was more than a prophet:

John 8:54 Jesus replied, If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55 Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and keep his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad. 57 You are not yet fifty years old, the Jews said to him, and you have seen Abraham! 58 I tell you the truth, Jesus answered, before Abrar]ham was born, I am! 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

It also says in Exodus 3:14 it says "And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of israel, I AM hath sent me unto you."

In it says Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

And in Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

 

God didn't die but Just moved from on plan to the next. His body died not him. Just like your body will die but your soul will live on where ever you God. Also Like it is stated above Jesus is God. Made into flesh. It is said in quantum physics that the same thing can be in two different places at once. Since God is all powerful and all knowing then I think he can pull that one off with no problem.

 

Neither was Jesus undermined by the Jews it was all apart of the Plan.

In Lu 22:37 Jesus said “ For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end†He was referring to Isa. 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Matt 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. 27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; 28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.â€

Mt 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

 

 

1. On the cross, Jesus beseeched God for help: ... In Luke 22:42, it is recounted: "Saying, Father if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but shine, be done." (This cup is the cup of death.)
This is on Mount Gethsemane not on the cross and the cup did not pass from his lips because the Lords will was done. Mt 26:36 “Then cometh Jesus with them unto a place called Gethsemane, and saith unto the disciples, Sit ye here, while I go and pray yonder. 37 And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy 38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me. 39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.â€

 

2. Jesus' prayer not to die on the cross was accepted by God, according to Luke, the author of Hebrews, and James. Thus, how could he die on the cross?: Luke 22:43: "And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him." It means that an angel assured him that God would not leave him helpless:
This was also in Gethsemane on the Mount of Olives after he prayed the angles came and helped him out. "Lu 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.45 And when he rose up from prayer, and was come to his disciples, he found them sleeping for sorrow,"

 

Jesus' prayers were "heard," which means that they were answered in a positive way by God:
God hears all our prays but that doesn't mean that he says yes. I know he has heard me on a number of occasions and said NO. You must ask in the will of God which Jesus did. Matt 26:39 "And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.†So the prayers of a righteous man, which is made righteous through the grace of God, is praying in God's will.

 

3. His legs were not broken by the Roman soldiers: John 19:32-33: "Then came the soldiers, and broke the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him. But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they broke not his legs." Can you rely on these soldiers' assertion that Jesus was dead, or did they want to save him out of their belief that he was really innocent?
Prisoners legs where broken so that they could die faster. Since the convicted were unable to hold themselves up the strain on the upper body would make them suffocate. When they got to Jesus he was already dead and didn't need for his legs to be broken. This is also a part of Prophecy "Joh 19:36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken" Ex 12:46, Nu 9:12, Ps 34:20

 

4. If Jesus died on the cross, his blood would clot and thus no blood would have gushed out of his body when his side was pierced. But the Gospel states that blood and water came out: John 19:34: "But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water."
After a body is dead the blood does not clot. The bodily functions stop working. So if He was pierce in the side after He died then the wound would not try to heal itself there is not point.

 

6. Jesus himself stated that he didn't die on the cross. Early Sunday morning Mary Magdalene went to the sepulchre, which was empty. She saw somebody standing who looked like a gardener. After a conversation, she realized that he was Jesus and wanted to touch him. Jesus said, as recounted in John 20:17: "Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father ..." "Touch me not" perhaps because the fresh wound would hurt him
You are mixing things up

Mt 28:1 ¶ In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. 2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it... Mt. 28:5 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified. 6 He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. 7 And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you.Mt 28:9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him."

Or

"Joh 20:11 ¶ But Mary stood without at the sepulchre weeping: and as she wept, she stooped down, and looked into the sepulchre, 12 And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain. 13 And they say unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? She saith unto them, Because they have taken away my Lord, and I know not where they have laid him.14 And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus."

 

Was dead and in three days he rose again. He may have told her not touch him for a number of reasons, but it wasn't because his wounds would hurt him. If He was what you clam He was, spirited away from the crucifixion, then He would be in some bed trying not to bleed to death. He wouldn't be standing!. Not if they whipped him beat him and put nails through your feet he hadn't had a drink in I don't know how long.

 

Then Jesus convinced them that he was the same person by letting them touch his hands and feet. As they could not believe him yet, he asked for meat to show them that he still ate like any living individual.
If his wounds hurt why would he let them touch him and not Mary? He meet them the same day only at night "Joh 20:18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had spoken these things unto her. 19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you." So it wasn’t because he was a little better.

 

8. If you still believe that he died on the cross, then he was a false prophet and accursed of God according to these passages: beuteronomy 13:5: "And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death ..."; Deuteronomy 21:22-23: "And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree: His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance."
Jesus came to die for our sins. The only sinless person on earth took the Punishment for us. That is why he was crusified. “Isa. 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.†“Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.â€

 

Also in it says"De 13:5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee." Jesus wasn't trying to turn anyone away from God but to God.

 

This Christian belief opposes the Bible's teaching in Hosea 6:6: "For I desired mercy and not sacrifice, and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings." It also opposes Jesus' own teaching in Matthew 9:13: "But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice ..." Again Jesus said in Matthew 12:7: "But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless."
Ho 6:6 God always want you love respect and for you to submit to him before you give him offereing. Without this love in your heart your scarifies are worthless. "1Sa 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams."

In Matt 9:13 Jesus is talking to the Pharisees who are more concerned about the law than God. It says in Mt 9:9-13 ¶ And as Jesus passed forth from thence, he saw a man, named Matthew, sitting at the receipt of custom: and he saith unto him, Follow me. And he arose, and followed him.10 And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciplesMt 9:11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners? 12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. 13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Don’t you see God wants you to need him. He is showing these men Mercy but the Pharisees knew nothing about mercy. So for your sacrifices to truly be worth something to God you have to have to be striving to be more like God.

 

Paul meet Jesus on the road to Damascus. And If you see in Joh 11:25 "Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:" Jesus was the first to teach about his own resurrection.

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jehovah's witnesses believe that jesus died on a stake and not on a cross :sl:

in fact in the scriptures is used the greek word "stauròs " which means stake :sl:

in the latin version of bible this word was translated as "crux" which means torment

 

so where is written that jesus died on a cross ? :j:

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until this date, I did not receive a single reply to my post

 

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showtopic=28845&st=56"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showtopic=28845&st=56[/url]

and

 

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showtopic=28845&st=67"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showtopic=28845&st=67[/url]

Edited by vishah

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The word Stauros has more to the definition than just a stake.

 

staurov stauros, stow-ros'

from the base of histemi; a stake or post (as set upright), i.e. (specially), a pole or cross (as an instrument of capital punishment); figuratively, exposure to death, i.e. self-denial; by implication, the atonement of Christ:--cross.

 

staurow stauroo, stow-ro'-o

from stauros; to impale on the cross; figuratively, to extinguish (subdue) passion or selfishness:--crucify.

 

Here is where it said that Jesus was crucified

  • Mt 27:35 And they crucified him(Jesus), and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots
  • Mr 15:24 And when they had crucified him(Jesus), they parted his garments, casting lots upon them, what every man should take.
  • Joh 19:23 Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took his garments, and made four parts, to every soldier a part; and also his coat: now the coat was without seam, woven from the top throughout.

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