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Why Do You Think Jesus Didn't Die On The Cross?

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There is only one New Testament

 

In Mathew 12:40. we are told

 

"For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

 

 

Lets look at the verse again. Is This scripture is making a parallel. So what is it Paralleling? The duration they will be or were in something . It does not parallel what state of being (alive or dead) they will be or were in.

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There is only one New Testament

Lets look at the verse again. Is This scripture is making a parallel. So what is it Paralleling? The duration they will be or were in something . It does not parallel what state of being (alive or dead) they will be or were in.

There is no confusion at all...

It says about the time and it tells about the state? Dont you see it....

 

Now this recalls me Brother Deedat saying to the Christians after his debate with Jimmy Swaggart.He says, you read it a thousand times, but you wont find the word "Muhammed" in the bible, infact it is there.

 

Behold! READ it CAREFULLY. It says

FOR AS JONAH WAS three days and three nights IN THE BELLY OF THE WHALE, so shall the SON OF THE MAN BE IN THE HEART OF THE EARTH for three days and three nights

 

He was supposed to be like Jonah according to Bible, and should be therefore alive. Jesus says he is like Jonah, but his so called followers, says that he is unlike Jonah. Now who is lying here? And as such, he DIDNOT full fill the prophecy.

 

Even the time factor contradicts. Insha Allah, I will come to it later...

May Allah Show you the right path

Ameen

W.salam

Brother vishah

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Mt 12:39-40 He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

 

Jonah 2

Jonah’s Prayer

1 [a]Then Jonah prayed to the Lord his God from inside the fish. 2 He said, “I cried out to the Lord in my great trouble, and he answered me. I called to you from the land of the dead,and Lord, you heard me. 3 You threw me into the ocean depths, and I sank down to the heart of the sea. The mighty waters engulfed me; I was buried beneath your wild and stormy waves. 4 Then I said, ‘O Lord, you have driven me from your presence. Yet I will look once more toward your holy Temple.’ 5 “I sank beneath the waves, and the waters closed over me. Seaweed wrapped itself around my head. 6 I sank down to the very roots of the mountains. I was imprisoned in the earth, whose gates lock shut forever. But you, O Lord my God snatched me from the jaws of death! 7 As my life was slipping away, I remembered the Lord. And my earnest prayer went out to you in your holy Temple. 8 Those who worship false gods turn their backs on all God’s mercies. 9 But I will offer sacrifices to you with songs of praise, and I will fulfill all my vows. For my salvation comes from the Lord alone. 10 And the LORD commanded the fish, and it vomited Jonah onto dry land.â€

 

As you can see Jonah was in the "Land of the Dead". Still in Joh 19:33-34 it says "but when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs 34 howbeit one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and straightway there came out blood and water." So it says the Jesus died also.

 

Peace, God is Love

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I mean what would be the significance of him not dieing? Is there any reasoning behind it? I

 

 

Thanks for that question. It is the one I'm most curious about. Why would God spare his physical death?

 

kamiya

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Thanks for that question. It is the one I'm most curious about. Why would God spare his physical death?

 

kamiya

 

If Jesus is to come back again to this world, which most Muslims accept, then he must have been taken to Heaven alive, since God has promised that every (human) soul shall taste of death but once.

 

Jesus is not the only Prophet who has been spared physical death for the time being, by the way.

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Assalaamu alaikum,

 

I could waste a few hours writing a long reply here, but I wont bother since I know most of you are not interested in the truth.

 

If anyone is interested I have taken the time to provide links to the lecture:

 

Easter, a Muslim viewpoint

 

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetyoutube(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/watch?v=gKqwlSzkEt8"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetyoutube(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/watch?v=gKqwlSzkEt8[/url]

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If you go to youtube and search "Christ in Islam" (also by Ahmed Deedat) you will find his other lecture on the subject.

 

 

Peace

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So God can't raise someone from the dead?

 

There is nothing God is unable to do.

 

Salam.

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What about those people that Jesus and others have raised from the dead, they have tasted death twice wouldn't they?

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What about those people that Jesus and others have raised from the dead, they have tasted death twice wouldn't they?

 

They may not have been really dead at all in the first place. I find selective individual "resurrections" of such nature difficult to accept as a true "raising from the dead". Now if the resurrections were not so selective and involved more than one person at a time, you could have a point open for discussion.

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If Jesus is to come back again to this world, which most Muslims accept,

Thank you Yusufar,

So why does Jesus need to come back to this world again and when will that be?

 

kamiya

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god is eternal and does not die, if jesus is really his son like you claim, what makes you think god's son dies ?

 

So if Jesus doesn't die, he is eternal. Does that make him God?

 

 

kamiya

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Thank you Yusufar,

So why does Jesus need to come back to this world again and when will that be?

 

kamiya

 

Now I think this is a topic deserving of its own thread. There are quite a few reasons why Jesus needs to come back to this world, some of which have already been stated or alluded to here, not the least among which is to fulfil the prophecy that the meek (or the "Poor") shall inherit the earth, by him establishing a just rule over it in accordance with the commands of God (in Islam) after he defeats the Anti-Christ (aka "Dajjal") and his forces of evil.

 

As to when that will be, that is what everyone has been waiting for since his ascension, so I personally cannot say exactly when. What we know is that it will be near the end of the world. His return will be preceded by the arrival of a Muslim leader by the name of Muhammad Ibn Abdullah (aka "Mahdi"), a descendant of the Prophet (pbbuh).

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Now I think this is a topic deserving of its own thread. There are quite a few reasons why Jesus needs to come back to this world, some of which have already been stated or alluded to here, not the least among which is to fulfil the prophecy that the meek (or the "Poor") shall inherit the earth, by him establishing a just rule over it in accordance with the commands of God (in Islam) after he defeats the Anti-Christ (aka "Dajjal") and his forces of evil.

Thank you Yusufar, you are probably correct that a new topic is needed as my question is tangent to the original poster's purpose, but strangely enough, still relevant to the threads title. I’m still sifting through this thread and have a few question about some others quotes, however, the posts are almost a year old, it is possible those original posters are no longer here. For example,...abu athmaan stated in post#3:

The Prophet Muhammad (sall-Allaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) has prophesied that Jesus will return and judge mankind with justice. He will descend by the white minaret in the east of Damascus, placing his hands upon the wings of two angels, and will fight against the Antichrist (Dajjaal) until he reaches him by the gate of Ludd (present day israel), where he will kill him.

 

Is not God the only one who can judge mankind? Perhaps, it is just a poor choice of words above, but this verse here is what adds to my confusion:

 

"And behold! God will say [i.e. on the Day of Judgment]: 'Oh Jesus, the son of Mary! Did you say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of God?' He will say: 'Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would indeed have known it. You know what is in my heart, though I know not what is in Yours. For You know in full all that is hidden. Never did I say to them anything except what You commanded me to say: 'Worship God, my Lord and your Lord.' And I was a witness over them while I lived among them. When You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a witness to all things'" (5:116-117).

How does God not know what is in someone’s heart?

 

kamiya

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"by Allah’s leave I shall give sight to the blind man, heal the leper, and raise the dead to life." (3:48-49) The Qur'an talks about Jesus raising people back from the dead. So what do you mean that they weren't truly dead?

 

I also found that Allah said that he would allow Jesus to die " they plotted and Allah plotted. Allah is the supreme Plotter. He said: ' Jesus, I am about to cause you to die and lift you up to Me. I shall take you away from the unbelievers and exalt your follower above them till the Day of Resurrection.' (3:55) I thought Islam believes that Allah didn’t let Jesus die? Also is Jesus going to die after He comes back? If not then what is the big problem with allowing him to die?

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So if Jesus doesn't die, he is eternal. Does that make him God?

kamiya

 

Satan hasn't experienced death yet. That certainly doesn't make him God. And Jesus will come down to finish his appointed time, and then die.

 

Salam.

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How does God not know what is in someone’s heart?

 

kamiya

 

oops, I'm sorry, after I posted that, I realized that I had read that wrong...Jesus was talking, not Allah...and I'm unable to edit

 

So my question would change to...how could Jesus at his return be judge when he knows not the hearts of men?

 

kamiya

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Hello girls, mind if I intervene for a moment? :sl:

 

guerrillasaint,

 

"by Allah’s leave I shall give sight to the blind man, heal the leper, and raise the dead to life." (3:48-49) The Qur'an talks about Jesus raising people back from the dead. So what do you mean that they weren't truly dead?

 

I also found that Allah said that he would allow Jesus to die " they plotted and Allah plotted. Allah is the supreme Plotter. He said: ' Jesus, I am about to cause you to die and lift you up to Me. I shall take you away from the unbelievers and exalt your follower above them till the Day of Resurrection.' (3:55) I thought Islam believes that Allah didn’t let Jesus die? Also is Jesus going to die after He comes back? If not then what is the big problem with allowing him to die?

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you have inadvertently misquoted verse 3: 48-49 and 3: 55. Here's a link to an English Qur'an by Pickthall: (you are not allowed to post links yet)"http://######wings.buffalo.edu/sa/muslim/quran/pickthall/"]Al-Qur'an[/url]. If the link fails to display that means I don't have a right to insert links as a newbie.

 

Kamiya,

 

o my question would change to...how could Jesus at his return be judge when he knows not the hearts of men?

 

Jesus (peace be upon him) will not serve as judge on the Day of Judgment (God will), but he will at one point rule over the world in justice, peace, and wisdom. This is prophesied to occur well before the Judgment Day.

 

As ever,

 

Averroes

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As you can see Jonah was in the "Land of the Dead". Still in Joh 19:33-34 it says "but when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs 34 howbeit one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and straightway there came out blood and water." So it says the Jesus died also.

and as such it contradicts............ Jonah did not die,and he prayed to God while being inside the whale, can a dead man pray?... and this is called a miracle. Now Jesus says he would be like Jonah, but according to Christians he DIED. Is this likeness or unlikeness in ur mother tongue?

 

Peace, God is Love

 

Excuse me!!!!!???? what do u mean by that?

Edited by vishah

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So my question would change to...how could Jesus at his return be judge when he knows not the hearts of men?

 

I don't know the source of the Hadith, and what Arabic word was used in place of the English word "judge".

 

However, judging with justice could mean ruling with justice. It is very obvious that Jesus will rule, as evident in this Hadith:

Narrated by Abu Huraira:

Allah's messenger said, "The Hour will not be established until the son of Mary (i.e. Jesus) descends amongst you as a just ruler, he will break the cross, kill the pigs, and abolish the Jizya tax. Money will be in abundance so that nobody will accept it (as charitable gifts). (Sahih Bukhari)

 

However, rulers also judge people. Some judge according to man-made laws, and others according to God's laws. Judging wouldn't mean that he would decide who goes to Heaven and who goes to Hell. It would mean that he would settle disputes among the people by using the laws of God. God is the only judge in the hereafter, and it is He who knows what is in people's hearts.

 

Salam.

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I also found that Allah said that he would allow Jesus to die " they plotted and Allah plotted. Allah is the supreme Plotter. He said: ' Jesus, I am about to cause you to die and lift you up to Me. I shall take you away from the unbelievers and exalt your follower above them till the Day of Resurrection.' (3:55) I thought Islam believes that Allah didn’t let Jesus die?

 

Brother Averros has already pointed out the mistranslation in this verse. Hope it makes sense now.

 

Also is Jesus going to die after He comes back? If not then what is the big problem with allowing him to die?

 

Yes, he will return, marry, rule, then die (within a period of 40 years).

 

Jonas was saved by God in the belly of the whale, we certainly wouldn't wonder why God didn't just allow him to die. It's because he had a mission, which was to convey his message to the people until God told him otherwise.

 

And like Jonas, Jesus has a big mission; to kill Dajjal (anti-christ) who will arrive at the end of time. You might wonder what makes Jesus special enough for the job, but all messengers of God were unique and had special characteristics that set them apart.

 

Salam.

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Averroes no it didn't work. Stil thank you for the help, but I found another link.

 

Still I have a question. It says that Jesus quicken the dead so that would mean that they still tasted death twice. So I am still confused did these people die again? If so wouldn’t they be testing death twice. Also what is wrong with dieing? What is Islams definition of death? Is jesus entire body up with God? Or his soul?

 

Vishah Good day

and as such it contradicts............ Jonah did not die, and he prayed to God while being inside the whale, can a dead man pray?... and this is called a miracle. Now Jesus says he would be like Jonah, but according to Christians he DIED. Is this likeness or unlikeness in ur mother tongue?

 

The word used in Hebrew is shol which means Hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat), including its accessories and inmates:--grave, hell, pit. This word brings up images of death and the end of living on earth.

 

The belly of the fish was Jonah’s grave. So as Jesus said that Jonah would be a sign. So the earth will be Jesus's grave.

 

Mt 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

 

Don’t signs always point you in a direction? They are just a representation of something not the real thing. So the fact that the belly of the whale became Jonah’s grave directs you to the fact that Jesus grave would be the earth.

 

God is the originator of Love. The only reason we know what love is is because of him. He holds complete and absolute love for us. That is what I mean when I said that God is Love. Is this not what you believe?

 

I Corinthians 13:4-6 says “Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.â€

 

That is the love that God has for me and you. I am blessed by His love. He is Agape

May the Lord bless us with his mercy and understanding. Amen

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In answer to some queries about Lazarus dying twice, first of all let me begin by stating that the Gospel of John is historically the one accepted by most scholars as having been most changed and edited:

 

As Bernard D. Muller has stated:

 

"Many critical scholars have noticed the fourth gospel has signs of insertions, additions and reshuffling, suggesting its writing followed a long process:

"It is today freely accepted that the fourth Gospel underwent a complex development before it reached its final form." Introduction to the Gospel of John, The New Jerusalem Bible. Furthermore, it is more and more accepted its author knew about the synoptic gospels (and NOT a gospel of signs & a passion narrative, none evidenced to have existed). In agreement with these later observations, I will proceed to flag out the "smoking guns" and propose the solutions."

 

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgeocities(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/b_d_muller/jnintro.html"]Jesus, A Historical Reconstruction[/url]

 

Further:

 

"4.2 Jesus resurrects Lazarus (11:1-57):

Another passage featuring "Martha" and her sister "Mary" is 'Jesus resurrects Lazarus'.

Furthermore, let's note there is no mention of any Lazarus' resurrection story in the other gospels. However in GJohn, this alleged event is paramount. It explains the triumphal welcome:

Jn12:17-19 "Therefore the people, who were with Him when He called Lazarus out of his tomb and raised him from the dead, bore witness. For this reason the people also met Him, because they heard that He had done this sign.

The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, "You see that you are accomplishing nothing. Look, the world has gone after Him!"

It also starts the plot to kill Jesus (Jn11:45-50). Then, why did the three synoptic gospels NOT report on something so much public & important?

 

Note: the name 'Lazarus' appears in GLuke, as the beggar in a parable (Lk16:19-31).

 

The original GJohn did not have any story about the earthly Jesus resurrecting anyone. GMark features one (the little girl of Jairus Mk5:22-43), but the disciples (and parents) are told to keep it secret (against the fondness of "John" for widely witnessed signs!):

Mk5:43a "But He commanded them strictly that no one should know it, ..."

However, GLuke has a very public resurrection observed by crowd and disciples (the widow's son in Nain Lk7:11-17):

Lk7:14b-15a "... He said, "Young man, I say to you, arise."So he who was dead sat up ..."

Let's notice here some similarities with Lazarus' resurrection narrative:

Jn11:43b-44a "... He cried with a loud voice, "Lazarus, come forth!" And he who had died came out ..."

 

Conclusion: because of "Martha" & "Mary" and some similarities with GLuke 7:11-17, 'Jesus resurrects Lazarus' (11:1-57) and also 'Lazarus is remembered' (12:17-19) were added on after GLuke appeared."

 

(Those who wish to read the whole article, "Jesus, A Historical Reconstruction" may go here: (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgeocities(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/b_d_muller/index.html"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgeocities(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/b_d_muller/index.html[/url])

 

In spite of and even notwithstanding this, from Jesus' own words as recorded in John we can see that Lazarus was only "sleeping" and not really dead (see the bold parts below):

 

John 11: "1: Now a certain man was sick, named Lazarus, of Bethany, the town of Mary and her sister Martha. 2: (It was that Mary which anointed the Lord with ointment, and wiped his feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick.) 3: Therefore his sisters sent to him, saying, Lord, behold, he whom you love is sick. 4: When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not to death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby. 5: Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus. 6: When he had heard therefore that he was sick, he abode two days still in the same place where he was. 7: Then after that he said to his disciples, Let us go into Judaea again. 8: His disciples said to him, Master, the Jews of late sought to stone thee; and you go there again? 9: Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walks in the day, he does not stumble, because he sees the light of this world. 10: But if a man walks in the night, he stumbles, because there is no light in him. 11: These things he said: and after that he said to them, Our friend Lazarus sleeps; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. 12: Then his disciples said, Lord, if he sleeps, he shall do well. 13: Howbeit Jesus spoke of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. 14: Then Jesus said to them plainly, Lazarus is dead."

 

Verse 13 appears to be an editorial note or observation by the writer. The fact is still that Jesus originally said Lazarus was asleep and his saying subsequently that Lazarus was "dead" could be setting the stage for the miracle of raising him from the "dead", of course by the leave of God (as the Qur'an does state).

 

It would of course have been a better or real "miracle" if Jesus had brought back to life someone who had been really dead for a much longer time than a mere 4 days.

 

The "Secret Gospel of Mark" (not without controversy admittedly) gives the game away, however (emphasis in bold):

 

"And they came to Bethany. And there was a woman there, whose brother was dead. And she came and fell down before Jesus and said to him: Son of David, have mercy on me. But the disciples rebuked her. And in anger Jesus went away with her into the garden where the tomb was; and immediately a loud voice was heard from the tomb; and Jesus went forward and rolled away the stone from the door of the tomb. And immediately he went in where the young man was, stretched out his hand and raised him up, grasping him by the hand".

 

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetchristian-thinktank(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/qbadmark.html"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetchristian-thinktank(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/qbadmark.html[/url]

 

In the Gospel of Mark, Chapter 5 it is stated (emphasis in bold):

 

"...35 While he was still speaking, people from the synagogue official's house arrived and said, "Your daughter has died; why trouble the teacher any longer?"

36 Disregarding the message that was reported, Jesus said to the synagogue official, "Do not be afraid; just have faith."

37 He did not allow anyone to accompany him inside except Peter, James, and John, the brother of James.

38 When they arrived at the house of the synagogue official, he caught sight of a commotion, people weeping and wailing loudly.

39 So he went in and said to them, "Why this commotion and weeping? The child is not dead but asleep."

40 And they ridiculed him. Then he put them all out. He took along the child's father and mother and those who were with him and entered the room where the child was.

41 He took the child by the hand and said to her, "Talitha koum," which means, "Little girl, I say to you, arise!"

42 The girl, a child of twelve, arose immediately and walked around. (At that) they were utterly astounded.

43 He gave strict orders that no one should know this and said that she should be given something to eat."

 

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetusccb(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/nab/bible/mark/mark5.htm"]New American Bible[/url]

 

In the above example, it is not even possible to argue that "asleep" means "dead" since Jesus said clearly that she was not dead.

Edited by yusufar

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There is nothing God is unable to do.

 

Salam.

 

Can God the Creator become a creature?

Edited by yusufar

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Good day yesufar. I hope that you are doing well.

I just wanted ask you a few questions. Why do you believe in Mr. Bernard D. Muller? What are his credentials? I Googled this fellow and was about the read his critic on another fellow work about Jesus and I ran across something interesting.

Mr. Bernard D. Muller said "I am not a scholar and my knowledge of ancient languages is close to be not existent"(you are not allowed to post links yet)"http://############geocities######/b_d_muller/djp1.html"]the Jesus Puzzle, by Earl Doherty: a critizue by Bernard D. Miller[/url]

 

To answer you other question. Yes God could be a dog if He wanted to, but why would He want to? One thing I know about God is He doesn't do anything without a reason.

 

My God help us understand him more thought our discussions. This is my prayer. I his Holy and saving Name. Amen

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