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Moishe3rd

How Do You Change The Terrorism Of The Islamic World?

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Your wish is my command (sometimes! :D ). But it would also be useful in the first place to know what is it that needs to be explained, argued or defended...

 

yusufar

The last post I made responding to your posts.

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PropellerAds
:D/Peace To All

 

Look for the root causes of terrorism. Something must have triggered this wave.

 

Stop: injustice, double standards, oppression, tyranny, imperialism, invasions, occupations, interventions, supporting dictators, muzzling free speech, lack of true democracy, torture, inhumane treatment of people, the theft of the Third World, poverty, equal opportunity, etc., and terrorism will cease to exist.

 

It's a 2-way street...Actions beget reactions...

Well said.

For people who keep saying things like, US army did this and the terrorists did that, Pointing fingers will only lead to an endless discussion.

peace

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Pointing fingers will only lead to an endless discussion.

peace

 

Peace

 

a bit like where this one is going

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I would humbly suggest that discussion is better than:

BAGHDAD, Iraq - Bombs killed at least 40 people at markets in two Iraqi cities Monday, hours after key lawmakers said seven Sunni Arab insurgent groups offered the government a conditional truce.

Or it is better than other suicide attacks by disgusting perverts who call themselves Muslim.

I would humbly suggest that these perverse people who call themselves Muslims and commit digusting acts of terror might be dissuaded by real Muslims if those Muslims were to condemn and even fight against those perverse people who call themselves Muslim.

No?

 

Shalom

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Assalamu'alaykum. There is an idea that muslims are not condemning terrorism. I was appaled to see New York Times editorial by Thomas Friedman which states, "To this day - to this day - no major Muslim cleric or religious body has ever issued a fatwa condemning Osama bin Laden." Nothing could be further from the truth. Muslims around the world has denounced terrorism from America to Europe to the Middle East to Asia. This (www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.muhajabah(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/otherscondemn.php"]link[/url] elaborates on this. Peace

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I would humbly suggest that discussion is better than:

 

Or it is better than other suicide attacks by disgusting perverts who call themselves Muslim.

I would humbly suggest that these perverse people who call themselves Muslims and commit digusting acts of terror might be dissuaded by real Muslims if those Muslims were to condemn and even fight against those perverse people who call themselves Muslim.

No?

 

Shalom

 

Peace

 

Indeed discussion is better than violence and suicide attacks. Muslims who condemn and fight these perverse people could themselves also become targets (they already are at great risk of course).

 

But have they really been given the chance to do so? All it would take for the Muslim world to take its destiny into its own hands would be the complete cessation of all foreign intervention and interference in Muslim lands.

 

Can or will the West, particularly the US, do this? Having taken the iniative in the purported global "war on terrorism" do they expect to have Muslims on their side when they have in the process created even greater terrorism and killed so many innocent Muslims while dismissing such killing as "collateral damage"?

 

Yes?

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Peace

 

Indeed discussion is better than violence and suicide attacks. Muslims who condemn and fight these perverse people could themselves also become targets (they already are at great risk of course).

 

But have they really been given the chance to do so? All it would take for the Muslim world to take its destiny into its own hands would be the complete cessation of all foreign intervention and interference in Muslim lands.

Turkey; Pakistan; Libya; Sudan; Algeria; Tunis; Morocco - have all been free of "foreign intervention and interference in Muslim lands" for a very long time.

The rest of the Middle East and other Muslim countries have interacted with "foreign intervention" as they chose - whether allying themselves with the Soviets - as did Egypt and Syria; or with the US - as did Afghanistan and Iran; or against everyone - as did Iran and Afghanistan; or whatever...

If that's "all it takes," then your "Muslim countries" seemed to have dropped the ball.

 

Can or will the West, particularly the US, do this?

 

Of course. Because it has already happened.

 

Having taken the iniative in the purported global "war on terrorism" do they expect to have Muslims on their side when they have in the process created even greater terrorism and killed so many innocent Muslims while dismissing such killing as "collateral damage"?

 

Yes?

 

Yes.

It would be less than sane and quite childishly foolish for Muslims to believe that the United States dismisses killing innocent Muslims as "collateral damage," while perverts who call themselves Muslims deliberately slaughter ever larger numbers of Muslims all over the world, whether "the West, particularly the US" is present or not.

The United States has never "dismissed" killing innocent people.

Perverts who call themselves Muslims celebrate the mass slaughter of innocent Muslims.

 

So yes. The United States should expect to have Muslims on their side when they are trying to prevent the mass slaughter and destruction of in "Muslim lands" by perverts who call themselves Muslim.

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So yes. The United States should expect to have Muslims on their side when they are trying to prevent the mass slaughter and destruction of in "Muslim lands" by perverts who call themselves Muslim.

 

:D The Muslims would happily support the US if it really wanted to combat terrorism. The US President's administration in the last 6 years has been awfully incompetent, if they had the will in the first place, to fight terrorism. The war in Iraq did not stop or hinder terrorism but it certainly gave rise to an even greater terrorism. Over 100, 000 Iraqis have persihed since the beginning of the war ((www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_iraqmortality(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/100-000-the-likely-death-toll-in-iraq?PHPSESSID=171f95cc8ed2521d252802b9859b241"]source[/url]) and above 130,000 people's home have been displaced ((www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_news.yahoo(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/s/nm/20060626/wl_nm/iraq_refugees_dc"]source[/url]). I don't think anybody can call this liberation. So you could not be too surprised when other nations might be skeptical of the US's intention to fight terrorism in their country!

 

with peace

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:D The Muslims would happily support the US if it really wanted to combat terrorism. The US President's administration in the last 6 years has been awfully incompetent, if they had the will in the first place, to fight terrorism. The war in Iraq did not stop or hinder terrorism but it certainly gave rise to an even greater terrorism. Over 100, 000 Iraqis have persihed since the beginning of the war ((www.)"http://iraqmortality/100-000-the-likely-death-toll-in-iraq?PHPSESSID=171f95cc8ed2521d252802b9859b241"]source[/url]) and above 130,000 people's home have been displaced ((www.)"http://news.yahoo/s/nm/20060626/wl_nm/iraq_refugees_dc"]source[/url]). I don't think anybody can call this liberation. So you could not be too surprised when other nations might be skeptical of the US's intention to fight terrorism in their country!

 

with peace

Then why not support a fight against terrorism in your own right?

Denounce the United States, by all means.

And then, spend the same amount of time and effort looking up the statistics on the rise in terrorism perverse people who call themselves Muslims have perpetrated.

Spend the same amount of time and effort cataloguing the number of people murdered; tortured and butchered by perverse people who call themselves Muslims.

Spend the same amount of time and effort tallying the number of homes that have been destroyed by perverse people who call themselves Muslims.

Spend the same amount of time and effort tracking down and opening your eyes to what disgusting perverts who call themselves Muslims are preaching in the name of Islam.

You would then be in a position to condemn and advise on how the United States might be able to combat these perverse people who call themselves Muslim....

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Then why not support a fight against terrorism in your own right?

Denounce the United States, by all means.

And then, spend the same amount of time and effort looking up the statistics on the rise in terrorism perverse people who call themselves Muslims have perpetrated.

Spend the same amount of time and effort cataloguing the number of people murdered; tortured and butchered by perverse people who call themselves Muslims.

Spend the same amount of time and effort tallying the number of homes that have been destroyed by perverse people who call themselves Muslims.

Spend the same amount of time and effort tracking down and opening your eyes to what disgusting perverts who call themselves Muslims are preaching in the name of Islam.

You would then be in a position to condemn and advise on how the United States might be able to combat these perverse people who call themselves Muslim....

 

 

You seem to be on a roll with this "perverse people who call themselves Muslims" thing. :D

 

I suspect that there are more perverse people who are not Muslim than those who call themselves Muslim. But of course this doesn't make any difference to you, since you are obsessed with the purported "terrorism of the Islamic World" and blind to the state terrorism perpetrated by the US and israel.

 

My only advice for the US is "stay out of other countries and stop interfering with other people's lives around the world unless you have something positive to contribute".

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You seem to be on a roll with this "perverse people who call themselves Muslims" thing. :D

 

I suspect that there are more perverse people who are not Muslim than those who call themselves Muslim. But of course this doesn't make any difference to you, since you are obsessed with the purported "terrorism of the Islamic World" and blind to the state terrorism perpetrated by the US and israel.

 

My only advice for the US is "stay out of other countries and stop interfering with other people's lives around the world unless you have something positive to contribute".

Thank you.

I got the phrase from you. It seemed appropriate and I thank you for it.

I suspect that if the US stopped interfering in some basic ways, like buying oil for instance, that all the great things that Muslim governments are doing with their oil revenues might cease.

That wouldn't be good, would it? :D

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I suspect that if the US stopped interfering in some basic ways, like buying oil for instance, that all the great things that Muslim governments are doing with their oil revenues might cease.

That wouldn't be good, would it? :D

 

unless you are being sarcastic, i don't see the "muslim" governments doing any great things. why wouldn't stop buying oil be a good thing? it would break the americans' addiction to oil and it would break the middle eastern nation's dependence on oil as revenue (which is a pretty easy revenue).

 

with peace

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Then why not support a fight against terrorism in your own right?

Denounce the United States, by all means.

And then, spend the same amount of time and effort looking up the statistics on the rise in terrorism perverse people who call themselves Muslims have perpetrated.

 

You would then be in a position to condemn and advise on how the United States might be able to combat these perverse people who call themselves Muslim....

 

in post#80 i have posted a link to the diverse background of muslim leaders who have denounced terrorim. in addition, muslim majority governments have been fighting terrorism long before 9/11 and continue to do so. so, if i adhere the belief that Islam is against terrorism and denounce small group terrorism, why can't i be in a position to denounce terror by a big state?

 

peace

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Thank you.

I got the phrase from you. It seemed appropriate and I thank you for it.

I suspect that if the US stopped interfering in some basic ways, like buying oil for instance, that all the great things that Muslim governments are doing with their oil revenues might cease.

That wouldn't be good, would it? :D

 

I know you got the phrase from me. Use it by all means, but to keep on repeating it the way you do may cause it to lose any impact, if you know what I mean.

 

Read (www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.gawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showtopic=30882"]this post[/url] on the Political Forum for alternative terms. You should find it very useful.

 

The US stop buying oil? Is the world coming to an end sooner than we expect?

 

Let's be realistic. There's no harm with free trade, but to interfere in other countries merely to preserve one's trading advantages or for other economic justifications is no longer acceptable and the sooner the US realizes this all the better for the whole world, not just for Muslims.

 

Now this would be good.

 

But money has no conscience, and men with money even worse and if they have the ability to influence governments such as the US into interfering they will and have.

 

Such interference will inevitably come in many guises to hide the real reasons and will also cause much hardship, pain, suffering, death and destruction in the countries being interfered with.

 

But do these men who make money out of other peoples' misery care? The greater the misery and the greater the reaction (which they and you call "terrorism"), the more justification to carry on and all the more money to be made.

 

So how do you change this "terrorism"?

 

Simple, stop interfering!

 

But then, what's the use of having the world's biggest army, navy and airforce if not to be used to interfere? So not so simple after all!

 

Yes, power does corrupt and the downtrodden, the oppressed and deprived peoples of the world, Muslim or otherwise, will fight back until they or others overthrow such corrupt regimes and put in place more just and equitable governments which then slowly become corrupt again.

 

That is the never-ending cycle of life until the end of time as we know it.

 

What you see as "terrorism", gruesome and perverse though it may sometimes be, is part of that never-ending cycle of reaction to actual and perceived injustice and oppression committed by purportedly just regimes and which can be just as gruesome and perverse, if not more so.

 

All such injustice and oppression must be fought by right-thinking individuals and countries. Does this mean by all means, fair or foul? Can the cause of justice employ unjust means?

 

Islam says it cannot and that immediately puts Muslims at a disadvantage - how to fight perversity without becoming perverse oneself? The answer to this is the "straight way" that all Muslims pray to God to guide them to and keep them on.

 

Many stray, but what they do does not detract one bit from the essential truth of the real message and teachings of Islam, in submission to God.

 

Do you understand what I am trying to say?

 

yusufar

Edited by yusufar

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I know you got the phrase from me. Use it by all means, but to keep on repeating it the way you do may cause it to lose any impact, if you know what I mean.

 

Read (www.)"http://gawaher/index.php?showtopic=30882"]this post[/url] on the Political Forum for alternative terms. You should find it very useful.

 

The US stop buying oil? Is the world coming to an end sooner than we expect?

 

Let's be realistic. There's no harm with free trade, but to interfere in other countries merely to preserve one's trading advantages or for other economic justifications is no longer acceptable and the sooner the US realizes this all the better for the whole world, not just for Muslims.

 

Now this would be good.

 

But money has no conscience, and men with money even worse and if they have the ability to influence governments such as the US into interfering they will and have.

 

Such interference will inevitably come in many guises to hide the real reasons and will also cause much hardship, pain, suffering, death and destruction in the countries being interfered with.

 

But do these men who make money out of other peoples' misery care? The greater the misery and the greater the reaction (which they and you call "terrorism"), the more justification to carry on and all the more money to be made.

 

So how do you change this "terrorism"?

 

Simple, stop interfering!

Forgive me, but you have used that phrase several times and, in the context of what you wrote above in terms of free trade and the inevitability of the influence of money on all peoples of all religions, could you be very specific about what it means to "stop interfering?"

I would like to address or discuss this point by point, if possible...

 

But then, what's the use of having the world's biggest army, navy and airforce if not to be used to interfere? So not so simple after all!

 

Yes, power does corrupt and the downtrodden, the oppressed and deprived peoples of the world, Muslim or otherwise, will fight back until they or others overthrow such corrupt regimes and put in place more just and equitable governments which then slowly become corrupt again.

Being somewhat of a student of history, I do not know of any examples, ever, where "the oppressed and deprived peoples of the world, Muslim or otherwise," ever, "put in place more just and equitable government."

Could you provide me with such an example?

 

That is the never-ending cycle of life until the end of time as we know it.

 

What you see as "terrorism", gruesome and perverse though it may sometimes be, is part of that never-ending cycle of reaction to actual and perceived injustice and oppression committed by purportedly just regimes and which can be just as gruesome and perverse, if not more so.

Again, I am confused as to the terms you are using.

Are you trying to convey that this kind of terrorism has occurred before with positive results?

Or are you trying to convey that this kind of terrorism has occurred before against oppressive regimes with... no results?

Please give me some examples or clarification. Thank you.

 

All such injustice and oppression must be fought by right-thinking individuals and countries. Does this mean by all means, fair or foul? Can the cause of justice employ unjust means?

 

Islam says it cannot and that immediately puts Muslims at a disadvantage - how to fight perversity without becoming perverse oneself? The answer to this is the "straight way" that all Muslims pray to God to guide them to and keep them on.

 

Many stray, but what they do does not detract one bit from the essential truth of the real message and teachings of Islam, in submission to God.

 

Do you understand what I am trying to say?

 

yusufar

Unfortunately, no.

I believe that above, in the last part I quoted, you are trying to say that we should submit to the Will of G-d and never practice anything that G-d would consider unjust. Is that correct?

If so, I would agree that this is the way to live for the sake of one's soul, however, I do not see how that would prevent the unjust people from simply killing those who live this way.

Again, as a student of history, it has been my experience that when the pacifists or even moderates who do not want to fight in the manner of their enemies, live in an unjust regime, they are generally simply murdered.

I believe that this is easily demonstrable in today's world by taking the example of Sudan. There are many other examples, but it would seem that Sudan is easily the most egregious of the current crop of unjust regimes simply murdering those that they can...

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