Jump to content
Islamic Forum
Sign in to follow this  
atha

About The Apostates

Recommended Posts

Therefore, let us protect the rights of all people to have freedom to believe and disbelieve. In closing, Islam is only vulnerable when Muslims abandon its clear teaching of reason, religious freedom, tolerance, and peace.

 

Huzzah! So Islam does promote equality for non-muslims, gays, atheists, and everyone else who disagrees with Islam :D Does that mean that world domination and offering that tax/convert/war ultimatum when spreading Islam is not on the list of things to do?

 

I believe that many Muslims are reluctant to speak up because many "Islamic" cultures today encourage docility and teach to unquestioningly accept the decisions of "qualified" scholars. This is a new phenomenon; in the time of Muhammad (s), ideas were only supported after they had been proven to be in harmony with the Qur'an. Scholars could not just pull rank, as they were expected to be able to argue their cases.

 

Following a book unquestioningly is better? :D

 

Pagans are repeatedly berated for not questioning, for not using reason, even being compared to dumb animals on several occasions!

 

This is not very different from religious people my friend. Those who follow a book believing in it's absoluteness are the same as those who do not use logic and reason :D

Edited by 3dshocker

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
PropellerAds

Peace from our Lord,

1) This is the ruling of God (Allah) and His Messenger, as the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: "Whoever changes his religion, kill him." (reported by al-Bukhaari, al-Fath, no. 3017).

Do you take it literally? Do you kill everybody who changes his religion by embracing Islam? This ruling needs clarification, unless you decide to kill any non-muslim changing his religion to Islam :D

 

If the punishment for murder and espionage (also known as high treason) is death, then what should be the punishment for the one who disbelieves in the Lord of mankind and despises and rejects His religion?

Do you speak of the punishment by men, or by God? I can't see why a person following his consciousness should be punished just because we think his consciousness made an error. A person staying in Islam only out of fear, not really believing is closer to treason than a honest apostate. Does God love hypocrites, does he want compulsion in religion?

 

We have been told otherwise, not like your Islam. Remember what Yusufar has quoted: "This misconception has also presented Islam as a medieval and killer religion. Islam bashers have time and again tried to carry the point by pointing out that Islam orders the killing of a person if he or she reverts to another religion from Islam"

 

If this is no misconception, but you are right, this is indeed a strong argument against Islam.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If this is no misconception, but you are right, this is indeed a strong argument against Islam.

 

And one that the Quran supports :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

if someone gives up Islam and enters another religion and her punishment is execution then

 

certainly a person who gives up judaism and enters Islam can be exectued according to jewish law(i am not saying there is a law like that in Judaism)

 

but it just balaces everything perfectly...

 

quoting hadiths and blah blah does not still disprve the fact that there is complete sense of balance ESPECIALLY if you kill a person who has Islam and enterd another religion..

 

where is your sense of balance??? :D

 

SalaM

PeacE

LovE

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello everyone, I have been reading this post with some interest. It is obvious that like most people, Muslims are not violent. I have written some scathing critiscisms about Islam and the monotheistic religions as a whole on these very boards and you have all been very calm about it.

 

Infact I have Muslim friends and I have discussed this topic and many others with them face to face, and they dont burst into spontaneous violence. They usually clam up and close the discussion by saying it is the will of Allah or occaisionaly they respond like our learned moderater yusufar, that the Koran says the opposite. But I must say the Muslims who believe that killing apostates is part of the religion of Islam are by far in the majority.

 

And add to that yusufar's more moderate discription of bieng allowed to believe, un believe, believe and unbelieve over and over until he really angers Allah???

 

I have a problem wih this also, because a truly loving and compasionate religion of peace would teach its followers to forgive and love apostates. Islam both moderate and fundemental are totally at odds with a peacefull world for everyone.

 

If you are fundementalist you kill the apostate which is totally incompatible with a religion of peace, if you are moderate and follow the alternative teaching you refrain from striking the offending apostate down, but the teaching you follow instead would leave no doubt in the communities mind that the apostate is a worthless specimen of humanaity not worth youre respect, someone who is only fit for Allahs wrath.

 

So it's death or ostracism and opression, these teachings are not peacefull and at one with the complex world we live in.

 

The more I read of the Koran and forums like this, I see that calling Islam a peacefull religion is an untruth, it is an eroneous concept. I dont think Muslims fully understand what peacefull actually means.

 

It means letting go of youre ego, letting go of Allahs ego, allowing people to change their minds, allowing people to draw cartoons and poke fun at youre religion. Even allowing people like me to stand up in a square in Tehran or Islamabad and talk about the problems of Islam and the importance to mankind that we use our rational thought in the future.

 

(not to mention those poor adulteres and homosexuals who should also be forgiven and shown understanding-I know this grates on youre relgious understandings but this ''IS'' the definition of a peacefull religion Islam cannot be called peacefull unless it is peacefull to ''EVERYONE'' no matter what, if Muslims get rid of persecution or death for apostates but want to hold on to the teachings of killing adulteres, chopping off theives hands and killing homosexuals the term peacefull should not be equated to Islam until you refrain from such barbarity)

 

(The only time violence could be excused in a so called peacefull religion is in self defense and it should only be targeted at the agressor not at the civilians who just happen to live on the same peice of land as the agressor)

 

At the moment apostacy would either get you killied or ostracised and opressed and if I went to a Muslim country a spoke as I do here publically I would probably be beaten to death in minutes.

 

Until these facts change Islam has no right to call itself a religion of peace.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Greetings Joseph,

 

The Shari'ah (Islamic Law) is only one part of Islam. In the Qur'an and Sunnah (Examples or Way of the Prophet (pbbuh)) will be found the basis of Islam and the Shari'ah. When there is an apparent "conflict" between Sunnah and Qur'an, then depending upon the context and situation, the Qur'an takes precedence.

 

Everything in Islam is logical. Study of plain texts must always take into account the context, situation and explanation of any ruling and further purported rulings which are based on it. Rulings in Shari'ah also do take into account, among other matters, present circumstances - as long as the basics are adhered to and not changed.

 

When scholars disagree, usually the ruling with the more "merciful" interpretation is to be preferred. There is no question of any logic-chopping or white-washing in Islam, except in the fertile and futile imaginations of its detractors.

 

What passes off as Shari'ah in some Muslim countries and which defies logic is simply unIslamic. Any law purportedly in the Shari'ah which provides for death for plain apostasy (irrespective of circumstances) is unIslamic and is based on a non-logical interpretation of both the Qur'an and Sunnah.

 

Unfortunately, there do exist illogical Muslims, as with other communities as well.

 

The fact is that the basic tenet in Islam that there is no compulsion in religion has never been abrogated. If this is a myth, conqueror would not have taken on the religion of the conquered and Islam would have become a dead religion long ago. The truth is clear from error.

 

At worst, Muslims can say that anyone who leaves Islam is stupid, but they do not have the right to kill him because of that. We can only leave it to God to deal with such persons on Judgement Day.

 

Regards,

 

yusufar

 

See this article on the Islamic Forum:

(www.)"http://gawaher/index.php?act=ST&f=127&t=30070&st=0#entry309887"]The Global Insurgency Against America[/url]

 

I have to say Yusufar I find youre posts highly interesting and brilliantly written but fundementally flawed. Are you saying that the Koran is totaly logical and that it is free of contradictions?

 

Or are you saying that to really see the total and perfect logic of Islam you need to have perfectly memorized the Koran, The Hadiths, Shari'ah and then applied them without using youre inperfect mind to make youre own (and therefore flawed) interpretation of this devine logic???

 

I dont want to put words in youre mouth but I fail to see how anyone (who is not a devout Muslim) who has read the Koran could not concede that it is a far from logical book. It doesnt even go in a logical order let alone teach in a totaly logical way. It is wide open to interpretation, look at the muddle you guys are in over this subject alone.

 

If it was totally logical there would be no debate.

 

And as for memorizing the Koran, Hadith and everyother Islamic txt, far from suddenly becoming totaly logical it would by sheer mathematics become more convoluted and contradictory than the Koran on its own. Although I except youre point that in a situation where there is a conflic between Sunnah and Koran the Koran should take precedence, but I fail to see how Mohmmad can really be perfect if he contradicts in the Hadith what he was taught by Allah in the Koran.

 

As for human beings reading scripture without interpreting the prose through the prism of their own personal and un Allah like perception, this is a tall order indeed.....!!!!

 

As for calling Muslim apostates stupid, I think this is a cheap shot from somebody so well read and it only helps to convince me that in the absence of the death sentance the apostate would be treated with deep contempt not the respect that is due to a human being with a differing view to youre own...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
There is only one cure for that - education and critical thought, especially on the real basis and tenets of Islam - the path in Islam has been clearly set – worship of Allah, prayer, spirituality, righteousness, piety, knowledge, good thought, good action, good behaviour, good deeds, trust, humility, kindness, tolerance, justice, equity, legitimacy, faith, reason, rationale, charity, peace, forgiveness, compassion, mercy, brotherhood and love.

 

These are all powerful weapons against oppression, wrongdoing and injustice.

 

Muslims have to figure out for themselves where they are going wrong if they wish to avoid getting frustrated by oppressive and unjust conduct of other Muslims as well as non-Muslims - to the extent that they are willing to blow themselves up along with innocent victims and call for the killing of apostates who do Islam and the Muslim Community no harm (they only harm themselves after all).

 

Did God give any Muslim the right to do what many assume they can do in His Name and in the name of Islam, when it is only their own egos which make such assumptions?

 

Regards,

 

yusufar

 

 

What you say here is brilliant and I respect it totally, I see a conflict between faith and critcal thought but if most Muslims interpreted Islam in this way the world would be a more peacefull place, good on you Yusufar. Respect

 

Peace

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Huzzah! So Islam does promote equality for non-muslims, gays, atheists, and everyone else who disagrees with Islam :D Does that mean that world domination and offering that tax/convert/war ultimatum when spreading Islam is not on the list of things to do?

Following a book unquestioningly is better? :D

This is not very different from religious people my friend. Those who follow a book believing in it's absoluteness are the same as those who do not use logic and reason :D

 

Well said old bean. :D Many contradictions afoot in the perfect realm of Islam :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
if someone gives up Islam and enters another religion and her punishment is execution then

 

certainly a person who gives up judaism and enters Islam can be exectued according to jewish law(i am not saying there is a law like that in Judaism)

 

but it just balaces everything perfectly...

 

quoting hadiths and blah blah does not still disprve the fact that there is complete sense of balance ESPECIALLY if you kill a person who has Islam and enterd another religion..

 

where is your sense of balance??? :D

 

SalaM

PeacE

LovE

 

What are you trying to say???

 

Oh I get it, killing of apostates in Islam makes sense if Jews and Christians up the ante and kill their own apostates. Maybe it will really only be fair in the loving creators eyes if we Buddhists, Jains and Atheists kill converts too. MMM you know after reading the Old Testament, I think youre right a god like Yaweh and Allah would surely like a death soaked system like that to apease his vengefull nature.

 

Please please Sarah if that is what youre trying to say then you are deranged and you really shoudnt sign out with the words ''peace'' and ''love'' as you have no concept of the words.

 

Maybe I'm being harsh and you where actually critisising the idea of killing apostates, if so I apologise, if not what I say above still stands

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I have to say Yusufar I find youre posts highly interesting and brilliantly written but fundementally flawed. Are you saying that the Koran is totaly logical and that it is free of contradictions?

 

Yes, absolutely. All purported contradictions arise from our own failing to comprehend or our putting our own interpretations above God's logic. All fundamental flaws come about out of our own mistakes. Let us not attribute such mistakes to God.

 

Or are you saying that to really see the total and perfect logic of Islam you need to have perfectly memorized the Koran, The Hadiths, Shari'ah and then applied them without using youre inperfect mind to make youre own (and therefore flawed) interpretation of this devine logic???

 

The human condition is such that even if such perfection is attained, there is no guarantee (perhaps one may say rightfully so) that other humans will accept it for what it is, even if a fairly large number do - that is free will in action. The majority of humans will not attain any such level of perfection, but that does not mean that the standard of perfection does not exist, whether you accept it or not.

 

The human condition is such that everything is subject to human interpretation, even when a standard of perfection exists - this becomes a reference point for all human thought, intention and conduct, imperfect or flawed though it may be.

 

Humans will argue, fight and go to war even about basic concepts of right and wrong, even when the standards of right and wrong have already been set out, whether by God or human society itself.

 

I dont want to put words in youre mouth but I fail to see how anyone (who is not a devout Muslim) who has read the Koran could not concede that it is a far from logical book. It doesnt even go in a logical order let alone teach in a totaly logical way. It is wide open to interpretation, look at the muddle you guys are in over this subject alone.

 

See my remarks above. You cannot equate your logic with that of God and you cannot judge the Qur'an by your own standards. Belief is a strange thing, partly logic and partly faith, yet having as its basis its own truth - whether you accept it or not is immaterial to its relevance. All of the human condition is wide open to interpretation and this is not a peculiarity of Islam - that is what makes us human.

 

As far as I am concerned there is no muddle on the subject of apostasy, but that does not stop anyone, Muslim or otherwise, from making a muddle out of it.

 

If it was totally logical there would be no debate.

 

That is one of the main differences between God and man. There is no debate with God's logic but when it comes to mankind, everything - even that which is otherwise totally logical - is open to debate.

 

Even if Jesus (pbuh) were to descend to earth and proclaim that he is only a human being and not "Son of God", this would be subject to intense debate and many of his own so-called followers would reject it (and him), even if it were the truth and it was completely logical. Logic or perversion?

 

And as for memorizing the Koran, Hadith and everyother Islamic txt, far from suddenly becoming totaly logical it would by sheer mathematics become more convoluted and contradictory than the Koran on its own. Although I except youre point that in a situation where there is a conflict between Sunnah and Koran the Koran should take precedence, but I fail to see how Mohmmad can really be perfect if he contradicts in the Hadith what he was taught by Allah in the Koran.

 

This is a fundamental error. Only the Qur'an is perfect, since it was revealed and dictated word for word directly from God through the Archangel Gabriel to the Prophet (pbbuh).

 

There are many different types of Hadith which have been reported, not all of which may be considered authentic or "strong" based on various criteria which were applied by the early scholars of Islam, primarily the chain and quality of narration, etc. based on the overall trustworthiness of each narrator. Even those Hadith which could be considered authentic may prove to be not so upon greater examination and study, in particular those which contradict the Qur'an - these have nothing to do with the Prophet (pbbuh) and could even be fabrications.

 

As far as I am concerned, the Prophet (pbbuh) could not have contradicted the Qur'an in any way and any Hadith which appears to do so is suspect unless there are acceptable Islamic reasons for it which are based on the Qur'an.

 

As for human beings reading scripture without interpreting the prose through the prism of their own personal and un Allah like perception, this is a tall order indeed.....!!!!

 

The quest for such perception should be the main goal of human existence, thought and conduct for it will lead to nearness to God and acceptance by Him. It is not really a tall order at all, unless you want to perceive it as being so.

 

As for calling Muslim apostates stupid, I think this is a cheap shot from somebody so well read and it only helps to convince me that in the absence of the death sentance the apostate would be treated with deep contempt not the respect that is due to a human being with a differing view to youre own...

 

What would you call someone who has found the truth and then abandons it? Anyway I did say "at worst". You may call it a cheap shot if you wish, but it is certainly better than being put to death for it. I would not by any means treat anyone, even an apostate with contempt, far less deep contempt - pity perhaps, but contempt never.

 

But then again, I personally would not even jump to such a conclusion, since I could also be wrong for even thinking of such a person as being stupid. Perhaps through this experience he may even get closer to God...is still a distinct possibility if he was to sincerely repent - which he would not have the opportunity of doing if he was sentenced to death.

Edited by yusufar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Peace

 

The problem is that according to the 4 madhabs, people who apostasise from Islam are to be killed (or imprisoned for women).

 

 

So whatever we try to debate here ,...we have to keep that in mind...that is the LAW.....the question is, can we change it?

 

Peace

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Peace

 

can we agree that forcing children to adopt a certain faith against their belief(theyre too young to think for themselves) under threat of death is one of the most oppressive and unjust and criminal practices in the world?

 

Peace

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yes, absolutely. All purported contradictions arise from our own failing to comprehend or our putting our own interpretations above God's logic. All fundamental flaws come about out of our own mistakes. Let us not attribute such mistakes to God.

 

The human condition is such that even if such perfection is attained, there is no guarantee (perhaps one may say rightfully so) that other humans will accept it for what it is, even if a fairly large number do - that is free will in action. The majority of humans will not attain any such level of perfection, but that does not mean that the standard of perfection does not exist, whether you accept it or not.

 

All of this only makes any sense if you except the claim that the Koran is the written word of the creator of the universe.

 

Seeing as there is absolutely no proof of that we can only assume that you are in error and I'am right in saying that the Koran is a flawed and contradictory document.

 

Youre argument only makes sense to someone who has made the massive leap of faith that Mohhamad was visited by a winged angel who dictated the word of the creator of the universe to him.

 

There is no proof and anyone who is not a Muslim who reads the Koran could see that this claim has no basis in reality and that the logic of the Koran is not perfect unless you look at it with obedience in youre heart, youre critical mind switched off and the rose coloured spectacles of faith firmly glued on to youre eyes.

 

As for the way you would treat an apostate that is a moot point, it's the teachings of Islam that leave less humble followers than youreself in no doubt that the only way to treat an apostate is with contempt and that leads to opression.

 

Anything that leaves the door open to opression is wrong and needs to be revised.

 

That is the problem with Islam, in the eyes of most Muslims it is perfect in everyway so by definition it is incapable of being reformed into a religion where its followers can truly be at peace with people having true freedom of speach and thought.

 

If anyone in a Muslim country spoke like me they would not be welcome in that country, Am I right??

 

So through Muslims blind exceptance that Mohammad's story about being visited by the Archangel Gabriel and their un-shakeable beleif in the authenticity of the Koran you find youreselves in a position that can never be truly, totally at peace with a world in which most people do not agree and some people will actually voice their disagreement with youre religion.

 

The reactions that Islam has to counteract this dilemma is threats of hell wrpped up in scripture, opression, anger, and violence.

 

If Islam is the truth and is perfect in everyway, why does it need protecting from satire, critisism, rational argument and even insults?

 

Surely a perfect truth can stand up to everything and anything from science to cartoons?

 

The only reason I can see that Islam is so ready to defend itself by shutting people up, declaring it is so and must not be questioned or occasionaly killing people is because it is actually on very shaky ground without the total faith of it's people it turns to dust, so other ideas are dangerous to such a religion and you fear it, rightfully.

 

I dont blame you.

Edited by yusufar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Peace

 

can we agree that forcing children to adopt a certain faith against their belief(theyre too young to think for themselves) under threat of death is one of the most oppressive and unjust and criminal practices in the world?

 

Peace

 

I agree wholeheartedly

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
All of this only makes any sense if you except the claim that the Koran is the written word of the creator of the universe.

 

Seeing as there is absolutely no proof of that we can only assume that you are in error and I'am right in saying that the Koran is a flawed and contradictory document.

 

Youre argument only makes sense to someone who has made the massive leap of faith that Mohhamad was visited by a winged angel who dictated the word of the creator of the universe to him.

 

There is no proof and anyone who is not a Muslim who reads the Koran could see that this claim has no basis in reality and that the logic of the Koran is not perfect unless you look at it with obedience in youre heart, youre critical mind switched off and the rose coloured spectacles of faith firmly glued on to youre eyes.

 

You may believe so, even if it is only your own assumption for which you yourself have absolutely no proof (that Muslims are in error or that the Qur'an is a flawed and contradictory document).

 

If you feel secure in your own sense, that is entirely up to you. You may accept the claim of the Qur'an for what it is or not. The fact is that it is there, even if you are unable or refuse to understand it.

 

And your argument only makes sense to someone who has made a massive leap of faith that this was not so.

 

Your saying so is no proof that such claim has no basis in reality. You yourself may be suffering under a delusion caused by your own inability to see or accept the truth and your own flawed logic. I have looked at the Qur'an with disobedience in my heart, my critical mind switched on and whatever coloured spectacles of disbelief firmly glued to my eyes and I can still recognize the truth.

 

If you can't then you must be blind, heartless and mindless.

 

As for the way you would treat an apostate that is a moot point, it's the teachings of Islam that leave less humble followers than youreself in no doubt that the only way to treat an apostate is with contempt and that leads to opression.
I repeat that there's nothing wrong with the teachings of Islam. Less humble Muslims may be misguided as to the teachings of Islam on this matter, but that is no case to blame Islam for. Islam is not about contempt or oppression, but rather the exact opposite.

 

Anything that leaves the door open to opression is wrong and needs to be revised.

 

It is only the misunderstanding of the real teachings which needs to be revised. This is not easy, which is why there are not only unbelievers but misguided Muslims as well - all operating under the self-delusion that they are right, even if they are only making assumptions based on their own imperfect knowledge and interpretation.

 

That is the problem with Islam, in the eyes of most Muslims it is perfect in everyway so by definition it is incapable of being reformed into a religion where its followers can truly be at peace with people having true freedom of speach and thought.
Again, this is a baseless assumption. It is not Islam which is in need of reform, but rather those of its followers who are unable to be at peace not merely with non-Muslims but other Muslims as well. What you believe to be true freedom of speech and thought does not exist except in Islam.

 

If anyone in a Muslim country spoke like me they would not be welcome in that country, Am I right??

 

True freedom of speech and thought is not welcome anywhere, much less in countries which are only purportedly Muslim but where the real teachings of Islam are not welcome.

 

So through Muslims blind exceptance that Mohammad's story about being visited by the Archangel Gabriel and their un-shakeable beleif in the authenticity of the Koran you find youreselves in a position that can never be truly, totally at peace with a world in which most people do not agree and some people will actually voice their disagreement with youre religion.
To you be your way and to me mine. That is one of the fundamental teachings of Islam. I am truly totally at peace with that, even if some Muslims may not be. Voice your disagreement by all means, and I have seen many of you who will bring it to extremes that give lie to your purported tolerance and avowed freedom of thought and speech (and pretend to be surprised and even shocked that there are Muslims who will react with extremism as well).

 

The reactions that Islam has to counteract this dilemma is threats of hell wrpped up in scripture, opression, anger, and violence.

 

Personally I am of the view that those who purportedly eschew the virtues of democracy, freedom of thought and speech are the worst abusers when it comes to committing acts of oppression, anger and violence and many Muslims (and other non-Muslims as well) have become their victims over the ages right up to the present times.

 

If Islam is the truth and is perfect in everyway, why does it need protecting from satire, critisism, rational argument and even insults?
Again you are wrong. Islam does not need protection from anything at all. Islam has survived and will continue to survive any satire, criticism, rational or irrational argument and even insults. How Muslims feel is an entirely different matter.

 

I'm quite sure if I insulted you under the guise of freedom of speech, there would come a point where you would retaliate, perhaps even violently.

 

Surely a perfect truth can stand up to everything and anything from science to cartoons?

 

Absolutely. But this doesn't mean that its adherents can or will.

 

The only reason I can see that Islam is so ready to defend itself by shutting people up, declaring it is so and must not be questioned or occasionaly killing people is because it is actually on very shaky ground without the total faith of it's people it turns to dust, so other ideas are dangerous to such a religion and you fear it, rightfully.

 

I dont blame you.

 

Again, do not confuse Islam with the actions of some of its followers. Many actions of Muslims can be un-Islamic. The fact that Islam is the truth and has declared it so makes it dangerous to people who for reasons of their own do not want to accept the truth and you fear it, justifiably.

 

I don't blame you either.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yusafar said ''You may believe so, even if it is only your own assumption for which you yourself have absolutely no proof (that Muslims are in error or that the Qur'an is a flawed and contradictory document).

 

If you feel secure in your own sense, that is entirely up to you. You may accept the claim of the Qur'an for what it is or not. The fact is that it is there, even if you are unable or refuse to understand it.

 

And your argument only makes sense to someone who has made a massive leap of faith that this was not so.

 

Your saying so is no proof that such claim has no basis in reality. You yourself may be suffering under a delusion caused by your own inability to see or accept the truth and your own flawed logic. I have looked at the Qur'an with disobedience in my heart, my critical mind switched on and whatever coloured spectacles of disbelief firmly glued to my eyes and I can still recognize the truth.

 

If you can't then you must be blind, heartless and mindless.''

 

 

Hello Sir, this is quite an easy game to play. Let me start by showing you how what you say above makes no sense then I will move on to the rest of youre post.

 

Yes you are right I cant prove that the Koran isnt a magic book but I can highlight it's contradictions, flaws and the way it's teachings cause suffering.

 

I cant prove that Ganesh doesnt exist! that doesnt mean that there is a god with the head of an elephant floating around somewhere.

 

I'm afraid to say it, but the burden of proof is on you. I'm not making any supernatural claims, you are. Prove it or I rest my case.

 

It doesnt take a leap of faith 'not' to believe that the Arch angel Gabriel visited Mohammed in a cave and that Mohammed flew to heaven on a winged horse.

 

To actually come to believe myths of this nature as a logical adult takes a massive leap of blind faith. Unless of course there are angels outside youre window and flying horses in the sky.

 

The only other reason that it doesnt take a leap of faith is if you where bought up believing this stuff since childhood and know of nothing else,that is called brainwashing and a person who has undergone religious brainwashing since birth would find it impossible to see any alternative views even if they had physical proof to back them up.

 

There is nothing I or anyone could say to change youre mind, no state of the world that could budge you from youre views, that fact alone goes a long way to proving that youre religious convictions have less to do with reality and more to do with in group loyalty.

 

Even if science proved the existance of Brahma or Jesus came down to earth on a cloud and said Islam was wrong you would still be a devout Muslim.

 

Nothing on this earth can shake you from the shakles of faith and that proves that religious faith is not an act of logic and reason but a total blind obedience to unreason.

 

I do not read with disobedience in my heart you earn obedience it is not given for free, the Koran hasnt earnt my obedience. Infact anything that commands obedience from the start probably isnt worthy of youre obedience. If it is worthy of youre obedience it wouldnt need to command youre obedience.

 

I have read the Koran and there is nothing in it that a man who talked to Christians and Jews in the 7th century couldnt have imagined, there is no deep and outstanding knowledge that could only have come from the creator of the universe.

 

On the contrary, The creator of the universe seems to be obsesed with such parochial things as human sexuality and his desire to be worshiped and adored, and of course he will be angry if you act on the sexuality he gave you or choose not to adore him.

 

This is not a very convincing supreme being I have to say, he gets upset at the strangest things, I know humans who are more at peace with the world than god and he suposedly created it!! Imagine getting angry with things you already know are going to happen, The mind boggles.

 

More to the point in the Koran there is no deep wisdom of love and exceptance that transcends youre identity as a Muslim let alone actually trescending youreself to become a better person.

 

There is much to make you feel seperate from the world, the Koran gives a myriad of reasons for you to despise, fear, hate and separate youreselves from the rest of mankind.

 

There is nothing in the Koran as deeply profound and moral as Jesus's sermon on the mount, nothing like the Buddhas teaching of unconditional love for all sentient beings, no call to non violence, no teachings that encourage questioning and open mindedness.

 

Nothing that builds understanding, the Koran is just a blueprint for seperation and conquest all in the name of a god with all of the worst human qualities of anger, vengence, jealousy and wrath.

 

The Koran talks of Allah the mercifal usually after pages of wrathfull torture that he will visit on the dissobedient. (theres those contradictions again!!!)

 

 

There is alot about how sexual desire is shamefull and worthy of punishment but I'd hardly put that on the level of the eastern teachings that teach that youre sexual desires are natural, but that you should not let them rule youre life, you must control them and be skillfull.

 

The eastern traditions give you no reason to hate youreself or others because of youre desires or their sexual preferences but many logical reasons to be a skillfull, responsible human being and not let youre desires harm other people.

 

The eastern traditions from Krishnamurti, Lao Tzu, and Confucius all the way to Buddha apeal to our connection to eachother (these teachers have alot to teach us about making a better more peacefull world) in contrast Islam apeals to youre difference and encourages Muslims to feel superior to people who dont follow Islam, because we are ''the vilest of creatures only fit for the fires of hell''.

 

I use the eastern traditions to highlight the difference between the ancient teachings, Islam doesnt come close to the wisdom that these mere mortals spoke of.

 

So the Koran does nothing to prove that their is a creator god who likes to be called Allah, it does nothing to prove that the Koran is actualy the word of this god, there are no deep teachings of peace and love on the level of Jesus, Mahavira or Buddha.

 

There are no amazing scientific insights on the level of Einstien, Stephen Hawkins or Galileo, the Koran has no undisputible predictions about the future. The Koran has nothing inside it that proves it to be connected to the creator of the universe. (if it does please reveal this amazing proof)

 

Most Muslims and Christians are born to Muslim and Christian parents, if you took away all the people who where bought up to believe and only had the followers who had converted to Islam because of evidence then I dont think there would be many Muslims left.

 

It's funny how most Muslims come from Muslim countries isnt it, if you where born to Hindu parents you would be making puja to Shiva right now wouldnt you.

 

Islam and Christianity on evidence alone without childhood indoctrination would quite simply dissapear.

 

Think about the reality of death, we are all going to die. If you live long enough you will see every single person you know and love die, this is a perfect reason to love and respect everyone.

 

Islam gives you transcendental reasons not to love and respect other people. Seeing as youre god disaproves of at least two thirds of the worlds population.

 

How can you truly love people who are only fuel for youre gods devine furnace??? Or can you love us as you love the coal you warm youre feet over!

 

The Koran instead of giving us a cure for cancer or revealing cosmic insights as vivid as the Hubble telescope, (which by the way would go some way towards convincing me of some sort of supernatural conection) instead spends page after page crushing the foolish infidel.

 

Just read any of these passages 2:15, 2:24, 2:18, 2:89,2:90, 2:98, 2:105, 2:114, 2:122, 2:126, 2:154,2:162, 2:168, 2:172, 2:175, 2:176, 2:190-93, 2:216,.....................It goes on and on and on all the way through the Koran, punish, smite, hell, burn, fight, etc etc

 

No proof, evidence and a distinct lack of tolorance and compassion.

 

You would think the creator of the universe could have given us a message so profound that none could argue, the Koran brings us nothing but reasons for spiritaul superiority, fear, mysogyny, the house of war, martyrdom, lesser jihad, eternal torture, sexual represion, hacking of hands and feet, stonings, hate of gays, hate of infidels and people of the book etc etc (and please dont tell me I'm reading the books wrong, it's all in there and you know it)

 

The Hadith just turns the volume up on the warlike intolorance.

 

This is not very likely to be the will of a being that created billions of galaxies, pulsars, quarks, planets, stars, hundreds of thousands of beetle species, black holes, quasars, dwarf stars, red giants, human beings, dinosuars, bacteria, light, hydrogen, rain forests, eagles, ants, bees, spiders, volacoes, moons, oceans of mercury, gas giants and time........... wow

 

I think a supreme being could do better than the Koran.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Most Muslims would disagree with you, the death penalty stands for apostates and even you , who doesnt agree with the death penalty for apostates see them as foolish idiots. There is nothing in Islam that forbids the opression of apostates, but there is plenty to encourage the Muslim to treat them with utter contempt for nothing more than a thought crime.

 

Islam cant handle people with different world views, to use youre mind in any other way other than obedience to Islam is seen as beyond the pale, thought police and murder are a logical progression from such a world view.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Luke - for someone who claims to be a Buddhist you seem to know more about Islam than the teachings of the Buddha.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Salaams peeps,

 

the Koran isnt a magic book but I can highlight it's contradictions, flaws and the way it's teachings cause suffering.
No you can't because you have little or no knowledge of the Qur'an. Its clear to see from your posts that you are biasd against the words in the Qur'an so your understanding of its teachings are flawed.

 

I'm afraid to say it, but the burden of proof is on you. I'm not making any supernatural claims, you are. Prove it or I rest my case.

 

What's the point? You've already made up your mind. I could present the evidence to show you Islam is the true religion but you won't accept it.

 

To actually come to believe myths of this nature as a logical adult takes a massive leap of blind faith. Unless of course there are angels outside youre window and flying horses in the sky.
Your understanding of faith is strange. The teachings of the Qur'an are amazing because they confirm the true teachings of previous scriptures and clarify where they have been corrupted. Do you know anything about how the Qur'an was revealed? Bit by bit so the people could understand it. Have you read the Qur'an bit by bit and tried to understand? This Scripture has remained unaltered for over 1400 years, what other book has managed this? The Qur'an does explain things of a 'scientific' nature, not to show you how to cure cancer but to show you it is from The Creator Himself. Nothing in the Qur'an is in contradiction with modern science which is another sign for those who wish to reflect.

 

How about the Prophet (peace be upon him)? This man was comfortable and wealthy before his Prophethood came, respected and loved by everyone in his community. Maybe you should find out in what condition he lived the rest of his life. You would then wonder what was this man's motive? You could then reflect on the biographies of Prophets before him and find similar difficulties in their lives. How did the weak and banished Muslims manage to defeat the mighty Quraish who outnumbered them 3-1? These are signs. The character of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) was that of absolute honesty and integrity:

 

Encyclopedia Britannica confirms: "...a mass of detail in the early sources shows that he was an honest and upright man who had gained the respect and loyalty of others who were likewise honest and upright men." (Vol. 12)

 

The evidence is all there. When you analyse it all you will realise that to believe in angels and flying horses doesn't take much at all, and it isn't illogical either.

 

If someone gave you 100 packets of sweets and you opened 99 of them which all contained sweets, would it be illogical for you to believe that the last packet had sweets in them? Or would you refuse to believe it had sweets untill you opened the packet and looked inside? What if the person who gave you those sweets had never let you down, and never spoke a lie? I'm sure you would take their word for it.

 

More to the point in the Koran there is no deep wisdom of love and exceptance that transcends youre identity as a Muslim let alone actually trescending youreself to become a better person.

 

You have little or no understanding of the Qur'an. I could quote some verses but it would make no difference to you.

 

The sad thing is you make no effort to understand anything other than what you think you know is right. Thats why your opinions hold no weight. I read through your posts and you've got so much wrong, you have to take the first step and try to learn more.

 

Peace

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

Sign in to follow this  

×