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Arsalan

She Converted To Islam And Died....

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So your saying that the current standard of Islam by which muslims live is outdated. If that is the case then I agree and believe that the muslim world is long overdue for a liberal revolution. If Islam gets modernized much like the way almost every other religion has, then their wont be religion based conflicts. If this happens I'd also lose any and all beef I have with the current version of Islam practiced by muslims around the world.

 

P.S. Do you honestly believe you can convince other muslims to scrap the current version of the Sharia and modify it to suit the modern world?

Edited by 3dshocker

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Yes, this is happening already, its just that this modernization process has been dealt a serious setback by the iraq war, more ppl are driven towards extremism, but in a decade or so I think people and attitudes will begin to change.

 

Real Islam will be reborn after the saudis run out of money and stop promoting the wahabi'ist ideology I believe.

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The divide between west side and east side wont dissappear for a long time. If a change happens, it's gonna have to come from within the muslim community itself. The key changes that would have to be made is lifting restrictions that promote a male chauvenistic society, promoting tolerance and understanding of other cultures, promoting the idea that being a muslim does not make you better then anyone else, promoting respect for non-muslims (to the extent where they actually agree you respect em) etc, seems like alot doesn't it?

 

10 years seems waaaay to short for this to happen.

Edited by 3dshocker

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:D

 

Anthony, itjihad is only for new situations. For example, when a new product or item or technology is invented, Scholars come together and examine it because, there was not such thing during the 7th century (like cigarettes, photography, television etc.).

 

Yet (from what I can tell, and what the scholars have said) there is no itjihad for the Apostasy law. Apostasty is the same as it was 1400 years ago.

 

Also, the person is not killed outright, a good knowledgable person comes to the person and tries to convert him back for a time, AFTER that, if he does not repent or annul his renounciation of his faith, he is executed.

 

Also, if a person never believed in Islam in the first place, he is not to be executed!

 

:D

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Anthony, you seem to be on the end of a losing battle?

 

The Quran, Hadith, Sharia must all be followed absolutely in Islam ne?

 

I believe you are not suited for religion in general *just my thoughts*

 

I read on your profile that you were an atheist. Now this statement that you have made to anthony clearly shows you believe your way of thinking is superior and that you may be attempting to sway this brother into your "ungodly" way of thinking.

The divide between west side and east side wont dissappear for a long time. If a change happens, it's gonna have to come from within the muslim community itself. The key changes that would have to be made is lifting restrictions that promote a male chauvenistic society, promoting tolerance and understanding of other cultures, promoting the idea that being a muslim does not make you better then anyone else, promoting respect for non-muslims (to the extent where they actually agree you respect em) etc, seems like alot doesn't it?

 

What about promoting the idea respect for fellow man (muslim or not)

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I read on your profile that you were an atheist. Now this statement that you have made to anthony clearly shows you believe your way of thinking is superior and that you may be attempting to sway this brother into your "ungodly" way of thinking.

 

My way of thinking is strictly the rational and logical kind you'd find in the philosophy of the many great minds of the past. I do indeed see this as superior to any faith based system. My way of thinking is quite ungodly. I do not believe in god, what else would it be? If you don't like it, bite me :D

 

What about promoting the idea respect for fellow man (muslim or not)

It's much easier to respect your fellow man when you are not separating them into categories of infidels and chosen people. How can you speak of respect for ur fellow non muslim man when you can't even respect those that believe differently then you do? Don't tell people you respect them while your kicking dirt in their eye. I'll believe you respect non muslims when I see you defending gays and apostates from discrimination.

 

Yet (from what I can tell, and what the scholars have said) there is no itjihad for the Apostasy law. Apostasty is the same as it was 1400 years ago.

 

Also, the person is not killed outright, a good knowledgable person comes to the person and tries to convert him back for a time, AFTER that, if he does not repent or annul his renounciation of his faith, he is executed.

Scratch freedom of religion off the list of things offered in Islam. Sugar coating the murder of people for descent is not very...comforting.

Edited by 3dshocker

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My way of thinking is strictly the rational and logical kind you'd find in the philosophy of the many great minds of the past. I do indeed see this as superior to any faith based system. My way of thinking is quite ungodly. I do not believe in god, what else would it be? If you don't like it, bite me :D

It's much easier to respect your fellow man when you are not separating them into categories of infidels and chosen people. How can you speak of respect for ur fellow non muslim man when you can't even respect those that believe differently then you do? Don't tell people you respect them while your kicking dirt in their eye. I'll believe you respect non muslims when I see you defending gays and apostates from discrimination.

Scratch freedom of religion off the list of things offered in Islam. Sugar coating the murder of people for descent is not very...comforting.

 

When the Muslims administer a non-Muslim town/area, they don't force anyone to become Muslims. The people are free to worship as they please in their areas (with some restrictions) and if they are people of the book (Jews, Christians) they have to pay a protection tax.

 

Remember, Muslims do not forcibly convert people!

 

What do you mean sugar-coating? Whose sugar coating here?

 

If you value rationality, you must then see that Islam is the true religion. go

Chapter 1 Some Evidence for the Truth of Islam on (www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.Islam-guide(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.Islam-guide(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/[/url]. There you will see scientific facts not known 1400 years ago.

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and if they are people of the book (Jews, Christians) they have to pay a protection tax.

This contradicts any statement you can make about offering them freedom. Considering that this seems plausible and non contradictory to you, I have no interest in your way of thinking and certainly am not going to choose religion over philosophy.

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Of course Muslims are better than other people. And what other religion doesn't believe that about itself? Secularism?

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Of course Muslims are better than other people. And what other religion doesn't believe that about itself? Secularism?

Exactly, what religion doesn't believe that about itself? Secularism is not a religion and does not have the built in discrmination and notions of superiority that religion has. Which I mite add is the cause of most wars-->"in the name of god" :D

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Well I have been clear on my firm belief that the apostasy law can not be implemented today because:

 

I dont support this mostly because a lot of people are Born into a muslim family, and made to blindly follow the faith, and when some of them are old enough they realize they never really believed in Islam and it was just something they did because their parents forced them to, in this case it would be UNTHINKABLE to kill them when they never even had Islam in their heart. Do you understand?

 

HOW CAN YOU KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN REAL MUSLIMS WITH FAITH IN THEIR HEART AND MUSLIMS WHO HAVE JUST BEEN BORN IN A MUSLIM FAMILY AND CHOOSE TO BELIEVE IN SOMETHING ELSE WHEN THEY're OLD ENOUGH.

 

 

Find a way to solve this HUGE problem and i Swear I will support the apostasy ruling

 

Peace.

Edited by anthony19832005

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"The prophet's sunnah regarding apostasy I believe (as do many others) was in response to the large number of "fake" muslims who joined then left the religion of Allah in order to create confusion in the hearts of true muslims AND because back then leaving the Ummah was just like state treason."

 

Or more likely temporary converting to Islam to save thier skins.

 

Joining a religon then leaving to create confusion?!...lol wot ever.

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Well I have been clear on my firm belief that the apostasy law can not be implemented today because:

HOW CAN YOU KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN REAL MUSLIMS WITH FAITH IN THEIR HEART AND MUSLIMS WHO HAVE JUST BEEN BORN IN A MUSLIM FAMILY AND CHOOSE TO BELIEVE IN SOMETHING ELSE WHEN THEY're OLD ENOUGH.

Find a way to solve this HUGE problem and i Swear I will support the apostasy ruling

 

Peace.

 

:D

 

Even if you are born into a Muslim family, if you are "caught" apostasizing, you can say that you never believed. Theres a clear choice here: If you are a Muslim, and you said something that much warrant apostasy:i.e. "The Quran has errors" or something horrible like that, you are given time to think and repent, if you are Muslim and truly don't believe and you don't convert back, then you get executed. If you were never Muslim, you simply tell the judges that.

 

:D

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If you were never Muslim, you simply tell the judges that.

 

salaam

 

Ok but as you probably figured out by now, it's impossible to be executed for apostasy .....all you have to say is you never really believed and you just did it cause you were taught by your parents/society etc...right?

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If you are a Muslim, and you said something that much warrant apostasy:i.e. "The Quran has errors" or something horrible like that

 

Peace,

 

Here's another interesting thing that came to my mind. A true muslim could never think the Qur'an has errors or anything like that, and if a muslim actually believes that, then its because of ignorance and im sure if he is given counselling and information from a more knowleadgeable person he will realize he was under a false impression so he would never get executed.

 

Now, if its a person who just prays/fasts etc just because he was born into a muslim society and says something like "the qur'an has errors" he should NOT be killed because it's clear he's not a muslim, he can't be, right?

Edited by anthony19832005

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anthony, the problem still remains. It's like they only offer life time memberships at Islam and the penalty for leaving is death. How can it be said that there is no compulsion in religion if you can't leave when you want to?

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anthony, the problem still remains. It's like they only offer life time memberships at Islam and the penalty for leaving is death. How can it be said that there is no compulsion in religion if you can't leave when you want to?

 

Many people have confusion with this.

 

No compulsion in religion means you can't force someone to revert/convert to Islam, like saying, "Convert or I will kill you." You can't do that.

 

It does not mean however, you cannot execute people for leaving Islam.

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Many people have confusion with this.

 

No compulsion in religion means you can't force someone to revert/convert to Islam, like saying, "Convert or I will kill you." You can't do that.

 

It does not mean however, you cannot execute people for leaving Islam.

um, thats pretty much what I said. "Feel free to join, but if you try to leave we will kill you :D "

 

You're redifining no compulsion as a one way street. You're not forced to enter but once you do you're forced to stay by threat of death.

 

You might find this perfectly acceptable but the civilized world does not.

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Peace sallahudeen.

 

What do you think about my last 2 posts? I think those are relevant issues I brought up:

 

A true muslim could never think the Qur'an has errors or anything like that, and if a muslim actually believes that, then its because of ignorance and im sure if he is given counselling and information from a more knowleadgeable person he will realize he was under a false impression so he would never get executed.

 

Now, if its a person who just prays/fasts etc just because he was born into a muslim society and says something like "the qur'an has errors" he should NOT be killed because it's clear he's not a muslim, he can't be, right?

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Wouldnt it be more accurate to say a muslim isnt allowed to think the koran has errors, after all a muslim that says anything untoward about the koran is declared an apostate. An we all know what happens to them.

 

With a death penalty hanging over them its no surprise muslims believe the koran is infallible.

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:D/Peace,

 

lol, afraid of a death penalty?

 

1) That is NOT happening anytime soon.

 

2) I ain't afraid of anything, I love my religion and I choose to believe what I believe. No one forces me nor will I allow anyone to force me. I do what I do comletely willingly. I have my reasons and this is enough for me. I fear no one but God.

Edited by Haqqul_Yaqeen

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:D/Peace,

lol, afraid of a death penalty?

 

Those that wish to leave face death. That is the problem. You're being content with remaining in Islam is irrelevant to this. It's about those who do not wish to stay in Islam after becoming a muslim.

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Those that wish to leave face death. That is the problem. You're being content with remaining in Islam is irrelevant to this. It's about those who do not wish to stay in Islam after becoming a muslim.

 

I was replying to Anon's comment "Wouldnt it be more accurate to say a muslim isnt allowed to think the koran has errors"

 

I was saying how I'm allowed to think whatever I want but without a doubt I think in this way...an Islamic way and believe in Islam as the Straight Path.

 

As for "those that wish to leave face death" I don't think this is right because we are given millions of chances in this life. This life is basically a huge test. We make mistakes on this test and then we have the chance to repent. The reason I say that we have to repent is because I SINCERELY BELIEVE that Islam is the correct way.

 

But since we are given chances in this life, why should anyone have the right to cut it short? And no, there is NO compulsion in religion.

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Wouldnt it be more accurate to say a muslim isnt allowed to think the koran has errors, after all a muslim that says anything untoward about the koran is declared an apostate. An we all know what happens to them.

 

With a death penalty hanging over them its no surprise muslims believe the koran is infallible.

 

which person do you know have been tried as an apostate for saying anything against the Quran? i don't know where you get your facts from. Almost no contemporary muslim country is governed by shariah law. but muslim from these countries STILL believe in the infallibility of the Quran. europe's largest minority group are the muslims, but they still believe that the Quran is error-free. same with india and china and russia, and on and on, where there is no law condemning someone as an apostate, but the belief is still there.

 

peace

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asalamu alaikum

 

the jewish hate for the ummah of Muhammad pbuh is nothin new

 

this story jus shows how much they hate muslims and Islam

 

"The Hour will not be established until the son of Mary descends amongst you as a just ruler, he will break the cross (end christianity), kill the swine (end judaism), and abolish the Jizya tax..." [bukharee 3/656]

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