Jump to content
Islamic Forum
bartlett

Indonesia - Compulsion In Religion

Recommended Posts

Despite the religious tolerance clause in its constitution, the Indonesian government is threatening members of the Ahmadiyah sect with 5 years jail if they speak about their beliefs in public. The government has already stood by and watched as fanatics beat member of the sect, and more violence is expected to follow this move.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
PropellerAds

it has nothing to do with compulsion in religion, brindel-back

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It has EVERYTHING TO DO WITH INTOLERANCE OF ONE GROUP FOR ANOTHER , which in and of itself is a form of COMPULSION .

 

Who ya tryin to kid Yasnov ? Do you think nobody reads the papers ? And those are articles coming from your own country .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How on earth is it not compulsion in religion? Can you define compulsion in religion for us?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Indonesian officials order sect to return to mainstream Islam

The Associated PressPublished: June 9, 2008

 

E-Mail Article

 

Listen to Article

 

Printer-Friendly

 

3-Column Format

 

Translate

 

Share Article

 

Text Size

 

JAKARTA, Indonesia: Members of a moderate Muslim sect were ordered by the government Monday to return to mainstream Islam or face possible imprisonment for insulting the country's predominant religion.

 

Critics may see the step as a failure by the government of President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono to uphold the young democracy's secular values as it struggles to define its Muslim identity after decades of dictatorship.

 

The vast majority of Indonesia's Muslims are moderate, but in recent years an extremist fringe has grown louder. The government, which relies on the support of Islamic parties in Parliament, has been accused of caving in to their demands.

 

The document signed Monday by two Cabinet ministers and the attorney general "orders all Ahmadiyah followers to stop their activities" or face up to five years in prison.

 

Indonesia's constitution guarantees freedom of religion, but many in the nation of 235 million consider it offensive that the sect does not recognize Muhammad as the last prophet.

 

 

Sect in Indonesia fears attacks on its members

 

"Is it still safe for us in this country?" Ahmadiyah spokesman Syamsir Ali said in an interview with national broadcaster tvOne. "Our houses are being targeted and those who don't like us feel it is acceptable to spill our blood."

 

Ali said he hopes Indonesia doesn't "turn out to be like governments in the Middle East" where the movement is prohibited.

 

Hard-liners have attacked Ahmadiyah members and torched their Masjids since the government said in April it was considering banning the faith. Several dozen religious tolerance activists were beaten at a rally in Jakarta just over a week ago while police stood by.

 

A spokesman for the radical Islamic Defenders' Front — which has a long record of arson, stoning and vandalism against opponents and Western targets — said the decree falls short of its demands.

 

"It is not enough. We will keep up the struggle until the president orders the disbandment of Ahmadiyah," he said in a telephone interview.

 

Earlier Monday, several thousands protesters wearing white Islamic robes and caps gathered outside the presidential palace to demand that the organization be outlawed.

 

The religion needs to be defended "from people who want to destroy Islam's teachings," said demonstrator Zairin, who like many Indonesian goes by a single name. The use of violence would be justified to force reluctant Ahmadiyah members to renounce their faith and "keep Islam pure," he said.

 

Ahmadiyah, established in 1889 in Punjab, India, considers its founder Mirza Ghulam Ahmad to be a prophet and messiah, counter to traditional Islamic teaching. Ahmadiyah has millions of members around the world, with an estimated 200,000 in Indonesia.

 

"As long as they say they are Muslim, they have to follow Islamic teaching that does not recognize the existence of another prophet after Muhammad," Attorney General Hendarman Supanji told reporters in the capital.

 

Religious Affairs Minister Maftuh Basyuni, one of the ministers who signed the decree, said it "is not an intervention into someone's faith, but to maintain order and safety."

 

The decree also called on radicals "to restrain from violent acts against Ahmadiyah."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ahmadiyah are a deviant sect that claim that there was another prophet after Muhammad (saw) they have also changed the creed.

 

The Ulama have declared them illegal and thats all that should matter to the Ummah.

 

There are a small number of people who are getting violent but they dont have many supporters.

 

The no compulsion in Islam ayat is often mis-understood. It doesnt mean you can choose parts of Islam and reject other parts. If it did the Sahabi's would have never gone to war with the group who followed the four pillars of Islam (no zakat) at a time where there were other groups associating partners with Allah.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Reminder only

IF does not allow discussions of different sects in Islam. This complex issue will require more than ordinary Muslim's knowledge to engage into various theological differences and interpretations of Islam. All Muslims should make Quran and Sunnah their only source of guidance. Therefore, we advise everyone to stay away from all sects. Please read about them in our 'Avoid All Sects and Cults' forum, here:

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showforum=163"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showforum=163[/url]

 

Posting or discussing any sect-related issue is a violation of IF rules.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

do you want to know the TRUTH, brindal-back?

 

wassalam,

y

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can we still discuss the Indonesian government's legal action against this sect, without discussing sects per se?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You've cleared that with the moderator?

 

I'll assume so. So, why do you think this isn't 'compulsion'?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

because it is not.

 

Asking them to stop insulting and hijacking Indonesia's predominant religion is not compulsion in religion.

 

wassalam,

y

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yasnov, they are only "insulting" mainstream Islam by holding a different view of it. Don't Muslims regard Christianity as (in effect) a deviant sect of Islam? Why wouldn't this apply to Christians? And isn't worshipping multiple gods 'offensive' to Muslims? So why wouldn't that be made illegal as well?

 

Either you are tolerant of pepole's religion or you aren't - Indonesia currently isn't.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yasnov, they are only "insulting" mainstream Islam by holding a different view of it. Don't Muslims regard Christianity as (in effect) a deviant sect of Islam? Why wouldn't this apply to Christians? And isn't worshipping multiple gods 'offensive' to Muslims? So why wouldn't that be made illegal as well?

 

Either you are tolerant of pepole's religion or you aren't - Indonesia currently isn't.

 

People can do what ever they want except change the religion and mislead others. If you are Christian missionary there is no problem as it is clear that you are not a Muslim.

As I gave in my above example, there were people who were openly enemy's of Islam and there were others who openly associating partners with God but the Sahabi' (I think led by Abu Baker (ra)) went to war with the people who said we are Muslim and follow the four pillars of Islam, the ones who didnt want to pay the poor tax.

 

Secondly how is Indonesia not a tolerant country? They have 200 million Muslims (80-90% of the population) yet only a handful of people (50 max) are being violent.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yasnov, they are only "insulting" mainstream Islam by holding a different view of it.

it's not just that. you know that i am a Muslim. and Ahmadiyyah people said that they are also muslims. then, why can't i pray in their Masjid? and why don't they pray in our Masjid? fact is praying in congregation is a requirement for the followers of Islamic faith. you don't choose where and which Masjid you pray.

 

wassalam,

y

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All you are saying is that you don't like certain other people's religious views. That's fine, but Indonesia is not a tolerant country if the penalty for having certain religious views is 5 years in jail. That is surely compulsion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
All you are saying is that you don't like certain other people's religious views.

no, i am quite tolerant with other people's religious views as long as i am not cheated against.

 

wassalam,

y

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry, but 'tolerant' means that you allow their views no matter how much you dislike them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

zero tolerance to crimes here

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Zero tolerance to the constitution as wel, it seemsl. How is it not 'compulsion in religion' to threaten people with five years jail if they follow their religion?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

it is stated in our constitution not to insult other religions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't you think jailing people for practising their religion is "insulting other religions"? If you regard it as insulting that some people hold different views, then the problem is with you (and possibly your version of your religion).

 

I can see your argument, and it might even be a good argument, but this is undeniably a case of 'compulsion in religion'.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


×