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Basayev Martyred

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BTW ......"one man's kidnapper , hostage taker ,and MURDERER of children ....should ALSO be another mans kidnpper ,hostage taker and MURDERER of children , forget that freedom fighter trash , that don't apply here .

Edited by Makko

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:D

 

One man's terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.

Do you people remember the war of indipendence for the USA?

To the British the rebals were terrorists and to the Americans they were freedom fighters, even though the rebels murdered, pillaged and raped innocent people.

 

If you consider Shamil Basayev to be a terrorist, then you should also consider the founding fathers of America to be terrorists as well, becuse they had the similar goals and use similar tactics.

 

 

Tell me , where did you get that from ? Show me any historical record where the American revolutionaries did that . You have nmade a false accusation ....PROVIDE your link .

 

And dont go comparing such a heinous dog such as Basayev , who admitted planning the attack on the school , and planned yet others on other schools , to the American revolutionaries .

 

You don't know what you're talking about , and there is a rule on this forum dealing withg such baseless accusations .

 

And I dont 'consider " Basayev a terrorist ..HE WAS A TERRORIST , and an admitted murderer of children .

 

If you call him "martyr " then you bring religion into shame . Martyrs do not slaughter innocent children ....PERIOD .

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And say not of those who are killed in the Way of Allah, "They are dead." Nay, they are living, but you perceive (it) not

2:154

 

think not of those who are killed in the Way of Allah as dead. Nay, they are alive, with their Lord, and they have provision.

3:169

 

We know that sis, but what we are trying to figure out is if Basayev was actually fighting halal jihad in the name of Allah when his fighters took a school full of children hostage. The messenger of Allah never took children hostage, threatening to kill them if his demands aren't met, and I believe he would be firmly against that and the rules of jihad forbid it.

 

Peace

Edited by anthony19832005

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i do not support nor condemn him because i do not know enough about him

and about excuses no not really

the fact is if russia gave these ppl independence than nobody would die and nobody would be argueing about basayevs actions right now

i said i do not condemn or agree either take it as it is or believe what u want to believe if u believe i support what he did than there's not much you can do about it now is there?

so what was the point of your quoting me?

Edited by arawelo16

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"livius i do not support his actions nor do i condemn them

i could honestly careless if he was a muslim jew or hindu

like i said before you got to do what you got to do to survive

he cannot do what the russians are doing he does'nt have their technology so he's got to get his point across another way whatever works

and like omar786 said One man's terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.

he's a hero to the chechnian ppl

i did not say basayev was a hero and none of us here can be a 100% sure if he was a hero or a villain

 

 

 

-your words ?

 

 

And you say you dont know of him ? Apparently enough to make that excuse for him ...no ?

 

And that is precisely what you did .

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i did not make any excuses that's the way it is

why is it so hard for some ppl in the west to grasp something so simple

if yall stop going around killing ppl they would'nt hate yall so much and kill u too.it's so simple but so complicated for some ppl to grasp.

i did not make any excuses for him if whatever he did works for him than he should continue doing so

would it be more honourable if he killed ppl using missiles, tanks and by dropping bombs?

i will not condemn his actions because only god knows what i would do if i was in his same postion or what you would do

it's easy for us to judge sitting behind a computer screen the biggest worry to u is probably paying ur rent on time

do not judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes.

i will never know what it's like for chechnians or completely feel their pain by looking at what is happening to them on t.v so i will never judge them even if they commit the most heinous act

again i am not making excuses for nobody that's the way it is and i'm sorry if what i'm saying is'nt to your liking

salaam

Edited by arawelo16

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Also its too bad that the Chechen Mujahideen have not yet captured Vladmir Putin who is responsible for the death of over a hundred thousand civlians.

I think a trial would have been good for the people of Chechnya.

 

Well Putin is still alive so they might get chance to put him on trial..

 

Regards

 

Bowman

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livius what do you think would be the best course of action for the chechnian ppl? i'm asking u this honestly

 

Honestly, I do not know.

 

I do know, though, that taking a school full of children hostage is absolutely the wrong thing to do, both morally and politically.

 

Morally I think it is clear why children should not be used as pawns in a game of life and death. It is evil, pure and simple.

 

Politically they played into the hands of the Russians and hurt their cause. The world now looks at these men as violent people who care nothing about children, who in fact use the lives of children as bargaining chips. They are seen as animals who in no way should be governing a nation.

 

I believe the best chance they have to help their cause is a non-violent approach, although this approach is laughed at by many Muslims. It goes against their pride.

 

If the world saw the violence done to Muslims there, and then saw the Muslims being persecuted then things might change. The change would be slow, but it works. Can the people of Chechnya look that far into the future though? Or are they too impatient and too willing to resort to violence?

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"

i do not support nor condemn him because i do not know enough about him"

 

Just know this. Taking a school full of children Hostage is HARAM, so we cannot ever agree with this type of behaviour no matter what the circumstances because Islam does not allow us to agree with it.

 

If the world saw the violence done to Muslims there, and then saw the Muslims being persecuted then things might change. The change would be slow, but it works. Can the people of Chechnya look that far into the future though? Or are they too impatient and too willing to resort to violence?

 

 

If my family was being killed and I intervened to save them, I think that is closer to an act of resistance/defense than that of Violence.

 

Politically they played into the hands of the Russians and hurt their cause. The world now looks at these men as violent people who care nothing about children, who in fact use the lives of children as bargaining chips. They are seen as animals who in no way should be governing a nation.

 

 

Totally Agree. People have forgot Ghandi. However I don't blame them for resisting with weapons, it is Encouraged in the Sunnah to fight Opressors.

 

 

 

 

Peace

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If my family was being killed and I intervened to save them, I think that is closer to an act of resistance/defense than that of Violence.

 

They were not fighting for defense, they were fighting for independence, even though they have been a part of Russia for over 100 years (longer than any Chechnyan has been alive). This was a political battle, not one of defense.

 

it is Encouraged in the Sunnah to fight Opressors.

 

Even at the expense of the cause? Surely some kind of sensibility must be involved.

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:D

 

Tell me , where did you get that from ? Show me any historical record where the American revolutionaries did that . You have nmade a false accusation ....PROVIDE your link .

 

And dont go comparing such a heinous dog such as Basayev , who admitted planning the attack on the school , and planned yet others on other schools , to the American revolutionaries .

 

You don't know what you're talking about , and there is a rule on this forum dealing withg such baseless accusations .

 

And I dont 'consider " Basayev a terrorist ..HE WAS A TERRORIST , and an admitted murderer of children .

 

If you call him "martyr " then you bring religion into shame . Martyrs do not slaughter innocent children ....PERIOD .

 

AHAHAHA....touched a nerve did I :D

 

well hopefully you know know how it feels when people falsely accuse legitimate freedom fighters of being terrorists (not that I am saying that the American rebels were legitimate freedom fighters :D because I still think of them as nothing more then rich terrorists)

 

 

And since I don't Want to high jack this thread, this discussion should continue at a different place and a different time, But any one who has taken Social Studies 8 can tell you about all the stuff the rebels did to innocent people (like tar and fether them).

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I think there are too many people who know nothing about Shamil Basayev but still want to speak about him.

 

Unfortunately Shamil may be remembered for Beslan - when really he should be remembered for his military brilliance and especially for liberating the Chechen people when he retook Grozny from the Russians in a superb counter-attack.

 

Unfortunately he had his flaws - the main one being unable to control himself when saw his people being butchered in a genocdial manner.

 

Other leaders like Aslan Maskhadov were able to control their anger but Shamil could not and did things which he would regret like Beslan.

 

I think the words of people who knew him best like fellow commander Ahmed Zakayev are relevant when we talk about Beslan:

 

"There is simply no justification for what happened in the school and I know that Shamil Basayev regretted it in his heart and soul," Ahmed Zakayev

 

He made his mistakes and i pray to Allah (swt) that he forgives him for his errors.

 

Shamil will be remembered in the North Caucaus as the man who stood up for the poor Chechen in the street and defeated the massive Russian empire in battle. As a military genius albeit a flawed one.

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He made his mistakes and i pray to Allah (swt) that he forgives him for his errors.

 

Are you calling Beslan a simple 'mistake'?

 

So if he went 'oops, sorry' everything is forgiven and forgotten?

 

Bowman

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Are you calling Beslan a simple 'mistake'?

 

So if he went 'oops, sorry' everything is forgiven and forgotten?

 

Yes it was a mistake. He's human and he made a huge error in involving children.

The same way Putin made an error in re-staring this war and Bush made a mistake by bombing Iraq.

 

Unlike the other terrorists like Bush and Putin he agreed to stand trial for his actions.

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Honestly, I do not know.

 

I do know, though, that taking a school full of children hostage is absolutely the wrong thing to do, both morally and politically.

 

Morally I think it is clear why children should not be used as pawns in a game of life and death. It is evil, pure and simple.

 

Politically they played into the hands of the Russians and hurt their cause. The world now looks at these men as violent people who care nothing about children, who in fact use the lives of children as bargaining chips. They are seen as animals who in no way should be governing a nation.

 

I believe the best chance they have to help their cause is a non-violent approach, although this approach is laughed at by many Muslims. It goes against their pride.

 

If the world saw the violence done to Muslims there, and then saw the Muslims being persecuted then things might change. The change would be slow, but it works. Can the people of Chechnya look that far into the future though? Or are they too impatient and too willing to resort to violence?

taking children as hostages was wrong but yall need to remember that muslims are part of the human race

i dont condone such acts but i just dont know what they should do everything is a lose lose situation when it comes to them

maybe they should try a non violent approach i dont know it just dont seem realistic but who knows.

 

anthony yes i belive he was in the wrong but i dont know if i should condemn him

i dont believe palestinian suicide bombers will go to hell or that poor ppl will be judged for stealing Allah is just

these are desperate ppl yes they should conduct themselves Islamically but in their situation i dont think it's reality they are only human?

salaam

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Yes it was a mistake. He's human and he made a huge error in involving children.

The same way Putin made an error in re-staring this war and Bush made a mistake by bombing Iraq.

 

Unlike the other terrorists like Bush and Putin he agreed to stand trial for his actions.

 

I just dont understand it. Basayev makes a 'mistake' and is forgiven because he is sorry. I am sure that Bush and Putin are sorry that civilians are being killed too. But I have the feeling you are not going to forgive them.

 

Is it because Basayev is a Muslim he is forgiven?

 

taking children as hostages was wrong but yall need to remember that muslims are part of the human race

 

Bush and Putin are part of the human race also..

 

Bowman

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just dont understand it. Basayev makes a 'mistake' and is forgiven because he is sorry. I am sure that Bush and Putin are sorry that civilians are being killed too. But I have the feeling you are not going to forgive them.

 

Is it because Basayev is a Muslim he is forgiven?

 

No i wouldnt forgive them but they will be judged by Allah (swt).

 

The difference is that all Shamil's actions were in order to stop a war , to stop a genocide , to stop the murder and rape of the Chechen people.

 

People like Bush and Putin did all their actions in order to start war. Im sure you wont be surprised to hear that Chechnya has oil just as Iraq has oil.

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If one is to make excuses for Basayev based on defense, then how can one condemn Bush since it can easily be argued that he invaded Afghanistan because of 9/11 and Iraq because he (mistakenly) believed that they had WMD's (and Saddam made no secret of his hatred for the USA).

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If one is to make excuses for Basayev based on defense, then how can one condemn Bush since it can easily be argued that he invaded Afghanistan because of 9/11 and Iraq because he (mistakenly) believed that they had WMD's (and Saddam made no secret of his hatred for the USA).

 

Well by that logic then - since Basayev admitted he was wrong and agreed to go on trial for his actions - i assume George Bush will admit his mistake , immediately pull all troops out of Afghanistan and Iraq and announce he will go on trial?

 

Somehow i doubt it.

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I just dont understand it. Basayev makes a 'mistake' and is forgiven because he is sorry. I am sure that Bush and Putin are sorry that civilians are being killed too. But I have the feeling you are not going to forgive them.

 

Is it because Basayev is a Muslim he is forgiven?

Bush and Putin are part of the human race also..

 

Bowman

did the chechnians invade russia?

did afgahnistan invade america?

did iraq invade america?

what did afghanistan do to america?what did iraq do?

basayev was fighting for his ppls independence he did not invade another country because of his own interests and say sorry

if you go around provoking ppl tham u can expect them to fight back

why should muslims be expected to suffer in silence

if somebody hits u you'll hit them back it's in human nature

u dont start something than cry about the consequences.

muslim or no i stick up for those who deserve it

and if muslims do something wrong without being provoked than i will condemn them

salaam

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Basayev's saying he would go to trial was an empty promise. He said he would go on trial, "just not right now". If he would truly go on trial then why did he stay in hiding?

 

And let us not forget his setting off bombs in train stations, and blowing up planes full of civilians in addition to many other acts against innocent people.

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Basayev's saying he would go to trial was an empty promise. He said he would go on trial, "just not right now". If he would truly go on trial then why did he stay in hiding?

 

No it was not an empty promise. As i said earlier you seem to know little of him yet you come out with these bold statements.

 

It was not his desicion as to when the trial would take place. It was the decision of the elected presidet , Aslan Maskhadov.

Aslan Maskhadov announced that the trial would take place after the war since he didnt think it was feasible to hold a trial in the middle of the war.

 

And let us not forget his setting off bombs in train stations, and blowing up planes full of civilians in addition to many other acts against innocent people

 

The planes were blown up by the Russians , Basayev wanted to take them hostage to force the Russians to negotiate.

 

As i say that was his flaw. For all his military skills he couldnt effectively control his anger when he saw his people being butchered in such a cold-blooded manner and he would do rash things like try to "take the war back to Russia" as it was called.

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As i say that was his flaw. For all his military skills he couldnt effectively control his anger when he saw his people being butchered in such a cold-blooded manner and he would do rash things like try to "take the war back to Russia" as it was called.

 

 

 

Aw poor Basayey , couldn't stand to see his people butchered .....noble indeed....so what did he do ? Embarked on a BUTCHERY SPREE OF HIS OWN . He became the animal that taunted him . No better than the Russians but more calculating , for revenge needs calculation .

And make no mistake Basayev , had given himself over to cold revenge .

 

 

Revenge and hatred motivated this man , his actions proved it , and to confer on him the title of martyr is a blaspemy .

To attempt a rational on what he did is an insult to civilised men .

 

To make excuse for him , is to demean one's own self .

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:D

AHAHAHA....touched a nerve did I :D

 

well hopefully you know know how it feels when people falsely accuse legitimate freedom fighters of being terrorists (not that I am saying that the American rebels were legitimate freedom fighters :D because I still think of them as nothing more then rich terrorists)

And since I don't Want to high jack this thread, this discussion should continue at a different place and a different time, But any one who has taken Social Studies 8 can tell you about all the stuff the rebels did to innocent people (like tar and fether them).

 

 

No , you didn't touch a nerve ....YOU told a LIE .

 

Changing your story now ?, from raping and murdering the innocent , to "tar and fethering " ..... NOW that your lie has been challenged .

 

O, please do open a thread ! And thence you can provide proof for your accusations in the previous post you put up .

 

BTW ...it seems that YOU didn't take Social Studies 8 .

Edited by Makko

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:D

No , you didn't touch a nerve ....YOU told a LIE

 

Just like all the lies you tell in all your posts :D

 

Changing your story now ?, from raping and murdering the innocent , to "tar and fethering " ..... NOW that your lie has been challenged .

 

is that all you got?

seriusly?

if thats all you can come up with as a responce then you my friend are in trouble. Conducting and argument like that just shows how weak of an argument you have.

 

 

O, please do open a thread ! And thence you can provide proof for your accusations in the previous post you put up .

 

BTW ...it seems that YOU didn't take Social Studies 8 .

 

 

naw.....too lazy :D

 

oh btw I hope you do respond, I do get a good chuckel every time I read your post. :D

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