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Contradictions In The Koran: Free Will Or Predestination?

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Let me add that this is pretty advance issue. I wouldnt expect you to understand it, since you must have known immense knowledge or (ie) be an erudite about the topic. My replies is actually for the sisters and brothers here.

 

peace

:D Ooo.Kkkk..

I initially though that your posts weren't clear bcaz English wasn't your first language, but I'm sure yo u know enough to see the contradiction in your own post.

You say that this topic is too advance and beyond my comprehension, but then you say that I have immense knowledge and am erudite about the topic :D :D

I just hope the other brothers and sisters that your post is designated towards can understand you and wouldn't mind explaining it to me.( The part that pertains to this thread that is.)

peace

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Greetings of peace

 

I shall repeat the holy passage:

 

He causes not to stray, except those who forsake (Islam). [Al-Qur'an 2: 26].

 

It is evident from the verse as quoted above that our Lord (the gloriously exalted) misguides only the soul which decides to reject His universal message despite receiving clear proof.

 

Although the issue of Divine Decree and human freedom of will is indeed on of those "extreme cases" where man must acknowledge that he is not destined to apprehend the very inner nature of every reality, it is quite simple to grasp for those who are aware of the sublime Omnipotence belonging to God (the gloriously exalted). Surely He possesses the ability to create such a mystical truth:

 

Know you not that Allah has power over all things? [Qur'an 2: 106]

 

Among all things, He has designed human life for a holy purpose:

 

Did ye then think that We (God) had created you in jest, and that ye would not be brought back to Us (for account)? [23:115]

 

Similarly, the Qur'an states that man shall not be granted knowledge of when the Last Hour (Doomsday) will arrive. Consider the loving mercy of your Lord and rest assured His creation is far from being flawed. Life is not quite a joke; rather it is a test of faith. Theorising on this matter is no different than attempting to conceive of the 'image' of God Himself (swt).

 

Regards,

 

Joseph

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:D Ooo.Kkkk..

I initially though that your posts weren't clear bcaz English wasn't your first language, but I'm sure yo u know enough to see the contradiction in your own post.

You say that this topic is too advance and beyond my comprehension, but then you say that I have immense knowledge and am erudite about the topic :D :D

:D Alright I wrote wrong there, what I meant was, I shouldnt expect you to understand what is/was written, because inorder to understand this topic you should've be a erudite or smth (cuz even the scholars argure about the subject)

 

jumping from one idea to another, is because I didnt clearly express the part which I replied your post, and which was for the bros and sisters here. But I refuse what you say this is out topic, since I know what I posted, and it widely states a different look on the issue...

 

 

peace

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Greetings of peace

 

I shall repeat the holy passage:

 

He causes not to stray, except those who forsake (Islam). [Al-Qur'an 2: 26].

 

It is evident from the verse as quoted above that our Lord (the gloriously exalted) misguides only the soul which decides to reject His universal message despite receiving clear proof.

Greetings of Peace?? :D interesting

Ne wayz

Salams :D

 

About God straying only the chosen ones,...nothing's changed.

first off if some one rejects Islam, he's probably already strayed, yet God chooses to further misguide the poor soul?? :D Grreeaat ..I mean wouldn't such person need more guidance than misguidance ?

Second off, if some one rejects faith there is s till a good chance that such person can return back to Islam..sure in a perfect world that is... God Intervenes with the blindness veil Zrx ( the latest and greatest model) and the already bloind idiot is now doomed for eternity.

On the flip side the people who get guidance? How does one qualify for such? Speaking from experience I've mentally filled out the form for guidance many times but appearantly it never got processed...what kin dof people get guidance? if only good people get the guidence then how is that fair? I mean they are already headed to heaven , further guidance can then only turn the coach trip to first class....sounds unfair.

Third of all....no third of all :D

Although the issue of Divine Decree and human freedom of will is indeed on of those "extreme cases" where man must acknowledge that he is not destined to apprehend the very inner nature of every reality, it is quite simple to grasp for those who are aware of the sublime Omnipotence belonging to God (the gloriously exalted). Surely He possesses the ability to create such a mystical truth:

I believe there is an answer to everything, just bcaz we don't know doesn't mean we can't know. Lack of explaination can't be accepted as an explanaion in itself.

Because otherwise, anything that doesn't make sense otherwise can just meant to be that way "

Know you not that Allah has power over all things? [Qur'an 2: 106]

The verse is a question.."Know you not that i have four legs" is not the same as saying that I have 4 legs.

Among all things, He has designed human life for a holy purpose:

If he designed us to do something ( like holy stuff) , then how are we able to not do holy stuff?

Did a perfect God create an imperfect design? In other words

If God only made us to obey him, then how can we nOt obey him??? Again ..presence of Human Will is in conflict with many of the attributes of God

 

 

 

Similarly, the Qur'an states that man shall not be granted knowledge of when the Last Hour (Doomsday) will arrive. Consider the loving mercy of your Lord and rest assured His creation is far from being flawed. Life is not quite a joke; rather it is a test of faith. Theorising on this matter is no different than attempting to conceive of the 'image' of God Himself (swt).

 

What other way is there aside from inquiries to reach the truth?

It's not about theorising ( as in theory) but testing to see if theological ( as in religious) data holds up in the realm of Logic and so far it doesn't. People in the past have watched their families die and then were totured to death but didn't give up their belief in Christ as the God. They were not muslims so They were probably wrong yet they and had faith without logic...So strong faith without proper reasoning then can be dangerous also...How can one settle for no answers then.

Peace

Edited by llogical

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Greetings of Peace?? :D interesting

Ne wayz

Salams :D

 

About God straying only the chosen ones,...nothing's changed.

first off if some one rejects Islam, he's probably already strayed, yet God chooses to further misguide the poor soul?? :D Grreeaat ..I mean wouldn't such person need more guidance than misguidance ?

Second off, if some one rejects faith there is s till a good chance that such person can return back to Islam..sure in a perfect world that is... God Intervenes with the blindness veil Zrx ( the latest and greatest model) and the already bloind idiot is now doomed for eternity.

On the flip side the people who get guidance? How does one qualify for such? Speaking from experience I've mentally filled out the form for guidance many times but appearantly it never got processed...what kin dof people get guidance? if only good people get the guidence then how is that fair? I mean they are already headed to heaven , further guidance can then only turn the coach trip to first class....sounds unfair.

Third of all....no third of all :D

 

What did you do for guidance, I really want to here :D . As a reply for your question, you must try to observe and try to seek that there must be creator, an architect of the universe. For guidance (:D) , I say look carefully at the inscriptions of this vast palace (ie universe), look at all the adornments of the town, see the ordering of this whole land, and reflect on all the works of art in this world! See! If these inscriptions are not worked by the pen of one hidden who possesses infinite miracles and skills, and are attributed to unconscious causes, to blind chance and deaf nature , then every stone and every plant in this land has to be an inscriber so wondrous it can write a thousand books in every letter and include millions of works of art in a single inscription. (symbolizing dont get scared :D)

But I guess you read or heard innumerous things like these.

There is no favour for certain man, nor Allah's guidance is unfair. I wont accept such allegation, since the guy who is misguided by Allah must have chosen this fate, for example he might have chosen not to obey Islamic rules in order to satisfy his prohibited lust or his short term desires doesnt allow him to follow the path of Islam. As Prophet (asm) says (roughly);

"Jahannam is sorrounded with forbidded desires, wills (etc); and Jannat is sorrounded mostly of what the soul doesnt want"

It isnt unfair believe me...

 

If he designed us to do something ( like holy stuff) , then how are we able to not do holy stuff?

Did a perfect God create an imperfect design? In other words

If God only made us to obey him, then how can we nOt obey him??? Again ..presence of Human Will is in conflict with many of the attributes of God

 

Yet again the pretension you obtrude always :D . Let me explain the small riddle of creation (as a preliminary). You might have heard similar things. Just read it :D . One time there was a king. As wealth he had numerous treasuries in which were diamonds and emeralds and jewels of every kind. Besides these he had other, hidden and most strange treasuries. By way of attainment he had great skill in strange arts, and encompassing knowledge of innumerable wondrous sciences, and was most erudite in endless branches of abstruse learning. Now, like every possessor of beauty and perfection wants to see and display his own beauty and perfection, that glorious king also wanted to open up an exhibition and set out displays within it in order to make manifest and display in the view of the people the majesty of his rule, his glittering wealth, the wonders of his art, and the marvels of his knowledge. And also so that he could behold his beauty and perfection in two respects:

The First Respect: so that he himself could behold them with his own discerning eye.

The Other: so that he could look through the view of others.

İn other words, like mozart had the ability of composing music, van gogh had the ability of painting, Da vinci had the ability of inventing wondrous fineness; and they all turned there abilities in to real, Since a beauty that is at the utmost degree of perfection and a perfection that is at the utmost degree of beauty are loved and are worthy of love to the utmost degree, most certainly will they desire to see and to exhibit themselves through displaying their flashes and manifestations in mirrors, in accordance with the capacity of the mirrors (The mirros are we, because we are unique, excellent, marvellous creations and Allah's inventions)

To round off, He created the angels in order t be obeyed and He gave them there own flavor in there slavery. But angels obeyment is inevitable, since they see god without no obstacles, it is like a babies unavoidable love for his mother . So Allah created a higher, more noble and respectful creation,the human being by making him a independent and individual, genuine person, and a collocutor to Him. This independence of human is formed by not showing directly Himself's All Mightyness to that human, cos than it will turn to be just like an angel. Where Allah's authority is shown just clearly the goal of creating that human will be meaningless.(This is the answer, as you ask If God only made us to obey him, then how can we nOt obey him ie the difference between us and the angels, Allah can make us obedient but then as I said the independence of human being would be gone) Allah intensively would like to exhibit himself to us but for the sake of the goal, he got behind the causes, occasions and the rules of nature and he executes what ever He desires behind these curtains. (Yes these curtains is what Atheists are stuck to). And the reason why we dont do holy stuff! is because the free-will, independence human has. In one of your answers before you claimed smth like this;Since Allah can do anything He can make us obedient with our free will etc; and I replied that this is the same thing of Him interfering humans independence.

 

They were probably wrong yet they and had faith without logic...So strong faith without proper reasoning then can be dangerous also...How can one settle for no answers then.

Peace

 

yes true but you must know that senses, or the strenght of mind isnt capable of answering all questions.

 

bro, u keep jumping from one idea to another, this has nothing to do with good deeds or bad ones. Furthermore us being responsible for our actions is not same as us being responsible for our actions that were forced upon us. If you push a man off the cliff, you are responsible for his death, but If I push you and you in turn push the man off the cliff unwillingly, then Are you responsible???

What do you mean, Allah forces you into Haram, and then punishes for what you have been pushed into (!). No way!! What I said there is smth like this; Yes in the Quran it says;

It is not ye who slew them; it was Allah. when thou threwest (a handful of dust), it was not thy act, but Allah.[8:17]

This is an evidence of Allah who creates everything even your act of pushing your friend down the cliff. But as said before the cause and the request are from the soul, so that it is the soul which is responsible. And as for the creation and bringing into existence, which belong to Almighty God. He in effect says: "My servant! Whichever way you wish to take with your will, I will take you on that way. In which case the responsibility is your's!" If the comparison is not mistaken: you take a powerless child onto your shoulders and leaving the choice to him, tell him you will take him wherever he wishes. The child wants to go to a high mountain so you take him there, but he either catches cold or falls. So of course you reprimand him, saying, "You wanted to go there", and give him a slap. Thus, Almighty God, the Firmest of Judges, makes His servant's will, which is utterly weak, a condition, and His universal will has it in view. You must comprehend the thin difference and I also must say it is a abstruse topic.

Allah never ever forces you to do smth, but because he is the creator of your wills you are the one who is responsible for it, and this is the explanation of such ayaths where Allah (cc) says I did it, not you. But it doesnt say that I was the one responsible (and I will punish you for it :D), he says you wished and I made it. Such ayaths are important because; as I said before, a believer attributes everything to Almighty God, even his actions and self, till finally the power of choice confronts him and he is not saved from obligation and responsibility. It tells him: "You are responsible and under obligation." Then, so that he does not become proud due to the good things and perfections which issue from him, Divine Determining confronts him, saying: "Know your limits; the one who does them is not you." Yes, Divine Determining and the power of choice are at the final degrees of belief and Islam; the former has entered among the matters of belief to save the soul from pride, and latter, to save it from lack of responsibility. To cling to Divine Determining so that obdurate evil-commanding souls may save themselves from the responsibility of the evils they have committed, and to take pride and become conceited on account of the virtues bestowed on them and to rely on the power of choice, are actions totally opposed to the mystery of Divine Determining and wisdom of the power of choice; they are not matters pertaining to knowledge which give rise to such actions...

I hope I was intelligible...

 

peace

Edited by vdtwo

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I hope I was intelligible...

I hoped for the same b4 reading your Long post and the unfortunate answer is a NO.

Here is why.

Long stories, quotes from Quran that are not applicable to the topic at hand..and no reasoning to support any of the claims (ex. "But as said before the cause and the request are from the soul, so that it is the soul which is responsible" ??? :D )

Neways though I appreciate you trying you are not helping at all.....Sorry to be blatent and I don't mean to be rude but sometimes there is a trade off between honesty and rudeness. :D

 

Peace

Edited by llogical

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I hoped for the same b4 reading your Long post and the unfortunate answer is a NO.

Here is why.

Long stories, quotes from Quran that are not applicable to the topic at hand..and no reasoning to support any of the claims (ex. "But as said before the cause and the request are from the soul, so that it is the soul which is responsible" ??? :D )

Neways though I appreciate you trying you are not helping at all.....Sorry to be blatent and I don't mean to be rude but sometimes there is a trade off between honesty and rudeness. :D

 

Peace

 

Alright, what can I say? Only let me say that the ex. you gave was about this; you know you said If you push a man off the cliff, you are responsible for his death, but If I push you and you in turn push the man off the cliff unwillingly, then Are you responsible???. It says that actually all your acts is being created by Allah, since it is said [8:17], but your the one who is responsible for it because your the one who wanted so. This is a basic principle among scholars Ahli Sunnat, and it is explaination of your discomfiture about what you claim (ie Allah made me do it, cos He says in the Quran He does, so why me responsible--Since Allah doesnt want evilness he wouldnt make you push your friend down the cliff, ). Ie there is no responsibility if smone makes you push your friend , Allah wont do that, but you are responsible if you push the guy, in which theoretically you willed and Allah created (The main thing I tried to explain in the whole text, the discomfitures of non believers who claim Allah creates everything[8:17], and then why he throws us to Hell. The mystery of [8:17])

 

Anyway.Im tired, I think your tired too :D

Edited by vdtwo

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salamz

It says that actually all your acts is being created by Allah, since it is said [8:17], but you're the one who is responsible for it because your the one who wanted so.

bro all this says is that you are responsible for your actions, How does this quote say that our acts are create dby Allah? :D

 

if you push the guy, in which theoretically you willed and Allah created

If i wanted to push the guy off the cliff I would have kicked him off bruce lee style instead of asking god to push me to push him. I have free will and the ability to carry out that free will as long as it's in the realm of physical possibilities. (kicking is)

Besides, it's not so much our actions but rather Actions of God that intervenes with free will.

God willingly chooses to misguide whom HE wills (not in respone to the begging pleas for some one who wants to be misguided but rather just bcaz HE WILLS) I mean would wish to be misguided anyway, No one living in the sane neighborhood..I mean why woul done wish to be in hellfire risking 4th degree burns rather then chilling in the heavens enjoying the view while sipping on margaritas. (Wait met me picture...sigh)

Neways, our actions are (influenced by others) but caused by us not God. God's actions are caused by he himself alone and when combined with human will create a contradiction.

 

about the discomfitures...If you know J.P Sartre, he claimed that Theists have discomfitures about God and forelorness. The fact that they can't bear relaity without a supreme being watching over them as the can't/don't want to imagine aworld without God.I would hate to talk about sartre and forelorness but this disconfiture thing is a double edged sword ( I only brought thi sup since you mentioned this "discomfiture" thing a bajillion times.

peace onto those who follow the guidance and other ones too. :D

Edited by llogical

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I knew you all misunderstood (or didnt even understand my posts) before since you still claim If i wanted to push the guy off the cliff I would have kicked him off bruce lee style instead of asking god to push me to push him. I have free will and the ability to carry out that free will as long as it's in the realm of physical possibilities. (kicking is)...Look I am gonna try explain it in a very clear way, just read it carefully...( :D ). Since as I said before it you must comprehend the thin difference between free will and act of creating and I also must say it is an advance and abstruse topic, moreover I dont think %95 percent of bros and sisters here doesnt understand what I explicate. (Im not praising myself-I must confess that most of my sis and bros dont even bother to read, I guess, anyway)

 

It all starts with this ayath;

 

It is not ye who slew them; it was Allah. when thou threwest (a handful of dust), it was not thy act, but Allah.[8:17]

 

Major scholars and ulema of the four school of thoughts (madhabs) construes this ayath like this; you llogical have only your will, you cant kick your friend down the cliff nor allegate that you have the ability of kicking. Because your pretension of such act, even if you dont mean too, is claiming that you can create acts and have the power of such physical possibilities. What I tried to say in whole my posts is that you will things, like kicking your friend down the cliff, but you havent got the vigour the authority to do so. You my friend cant even stand up, or blink without Allah's permission. You have only your wish or desire to blink or kick or whateva, the rest belongs to Allah and if he wishes he would create it for YOU and you will blink kick or whateva you want.(He wont interfere your wishes, so if you desire evilness he would create it, but you'll be the one whos responsible). Just look from another point of view, Allah (cc) gives you food, makes you wealthy, makes you strong and gives you strenght to do smth, and if you do smth, you cant claim that I was the one, I did, Its me, since Allah made the occasion suitable for you. Thats why Allah says in the Quran your partion of acts is only your will, Im the one who creates it, so dont get proud etc. He also says yes I'm the one who created it, even your evilness,( cos I created you and made you independence) so if you do smth like kicking your friend down the cliff dont come to me and claim, your the one who created it and now your punishing how tyrant you are . Since you wanted it I created it.This refers to the thing I posted way before,read it now cos Im sure youll understand what I meant;

Divine Determining and the power of choice are aspects of a belief pertaining to state and conscience which show the final limits of Islam and belief; they are not theoretical and do not pertain to knowledge. That is to say, a believer attributes everything to Almighty God, even his actions and self, till finally the power of choice confronts him and he is not saved from obligation and responsibility. It tells him: "You are responsible and under obligation." Then, so that he does not become proud due to the good things and perfections which issue from him, Divine Determining confronts him, saying: "Know your limits; the one who does them is not you." Yes, Divine Determining and the power of choice are at the final degrees of belief and Islam; the former has entered among the matters of belief to save the soul from pride, and latter, to save it from lack of responsibility. To cling to Divine Determining so that obdurate evil-commanding souls may save themselves from the responsibility of the evils they have committed, and to take pride and become conceited on account of the virtues bestowed on them and to rely on the power of choice, are actions totally opposed to the mystery of Divine Determining and wisdom of the power of choice; they are not matters pertaining to knowledge which give rise to such actions. And also read this...

But as said before the cause and the request are from the soul, so that it is the soul which is responsible. And as for the creation and bringing into existence, which belong to Almighty God. He in effect says: "My servant! Whichever way you wish to take with your will, I will take you on that way. In which case the responsibility is your's!" If the comparison is not mistaken: you take a powerless child onto your shoulders and leaving the choice to him, tell him you will take him wherever he wishes. The child wants to go to a high mountain so you take him there, but he either catches cold or falls. So of course you reprimand him, saying, "You wanted to go there", and give him a slap. Thus, Almighty God, the Firmest of Judges, makes His servant's will, which is utterly weak, a condition, and His universal will has it in view. See Im saying that His will (act of creation, cos whateva He wills he creates it) of misguiding someone, is only because the guys will of wanting to be misguided. He may not know this and claim that no way I seeked the truth but couldnt find it bla bla, but as I said before;

the guy who is misguided by Allah must have chosen this fate, for example he might have chosen not to obey Islamic rules in order to satisfy his prohibited lust or his short term desires doesnt allow him to follow the path of Islam. As Prophet (asm) says (roughly);

"Jahannam is sorrounded with forbidded desires, wills (etc); and Jannat is sorrounded mostly of what the soul doesnt want".

And Since Allah is the most compassionate, the most clement etc he would not never ever misguide someone to Hell like a tyrant.

 

Am I clear please say yes.

Edited by vdtwo

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Im saying you dont create things or have the ability to do so, Allah creates it, with your independent wills. (Just an addendum) :D.And this my friend is the relation and contact between free-will and predestination. Yep I think I was clear enough, Im so happy :D

Edited by vdtwo

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"It is not ye who slew them; it was Allah. when thou threwest (a handful of dust), it was not thy act, but Allah.[8:17]

Major scholars and ulema of the four school of thoughts (madhabs) construes this ayath like this......

Bro this aya is taken out of context..If you read Quran , then what's being discussed here was the war with Quresh .....bottom line is that it has nothing to do with freewill.

The so called Scholars u mention can take the individual Aayat and split the hair to get what they want to get but it's beyond the realms of logic and you/they should know better then to interpreted it by itslef.. So far Not a single person seem to acknowledge what you are talking about. :D . Again..not to sound rude but your posts don't make much sense.

I dont think %95 percent of bros and sisters here doesnt understand what I explicate.

I geuess the double negation was unintended? :D

If so, then perhaps you can find one of the remaining 5% who understand..I mean there are some very intelligent people out here...some one must agree with you then ...Can some one please come forward and explain..Please?? :D

Peace

Edited by llogical

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If human free will and devine freewill are not mutually exclusive then it's logically impossible for human free will to be truely free.

Peace

 

Human freewill is exclusive, If you believe in GOD and you believe he is the creator of all things why is it so hard to believe that he knows exactly how we would think.

 

A simple analogy would be: If someone you really love asks you to go to the shop for a bar of chocolate and you come back with exactly what they like without them telling you it is because you know exactly how they feel, what they like and love etc similarly GOD the almighty knows exactly how you feel think etc.

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Salaams

Human freewill is exclusive, If you believe in GOD and you believe he is the creator of all things why is it so hard to believe that he knows exactly how we would think.

The argument is not whether he knows or how or why.

I can understand that I can make a choice with god KNOWING what I will choose and yet Not effect my choice.

The problem occurs when God "Chooses to guide whom he will and misguide whom he wills" Right there is the divine intervention with human freewill. Furthermore, If God chooses to misguide a soul...what chance does that sould stand.... ever to be guided?

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