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No it doesn't work that way. You do good because you're compassionate and kind, two concepts Islam teaches. Then you get rewarded with heaven.

Well things are "religiously correct" for a reason. I mean, the only things that are forbidden are initially harmful, and so avoiding them would only be the smart thing to do.

My point was that doing good for the sake of goddness itself is not what's emphasized when there is a constant reminder of heaven and rewards etc.Insetad, it sounds like" Keep focus on the prize and do what's necessary to get there".

I mean isn't that the entire purpose of life, try to access heaven and avoid hell.

To me that's a selfish mentality because a religious person would rather sell out his family and friends just to please "God" and access Heavens. I have seen it done plenty of times.

But the question is, what IF you will be hurt so much, to the point where you are JUST about to die, then God restores you so you can feel it all over again. And this goes on an on for eternity, so you will never get used to it, but you will feel it forever. Well, I'm asking you, what IF this is true?

Highly unprobable to me but If it is true then what else is there to do but endure all punishment. :D With that being said, Now the question is Can God forcefully make me like him? No, because , he can threaten me, punish me kill me revive me ad kill me etc but he can not have my consensual likeness for him.

Just because someone is stronger then you doesn't mean u must like him based on that. If God really was kind and good etc, then his strength would have no relevance.

Besides if all else fails then I will count on God's mercy..Every one boasts about How merciful he is, so perhaps that's plan B. :D

On the same note , let me ask u this, let's say that U are not the slefish type who does things only for rewards. Would U give up your faith and go against God IF u was threatened with eternal punishment?..Plz don't say it's not possible but just hypothetically speaking would u do that?

If u indeed do good not to get reawrds then U probably are willing to endure all punishment because u feel you are right. I hope u get my point now. :D

peace

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PropellerAds

Peace,

 

My point was that doing good for the sake of goddness itself is not what's emphasized when there is a constant reminder of heaven and rewards etc.Insetad, it sounds like" Keep focus on the prize and do what's necessary to get there".

I just don't understand why a lot of people can't comprehend the concept of mutual coexistance. It's black and white for you, and you are being a dichotomous thinker. Why don't you look at it this way: Kind and compassion is instilled in the hearts of true Muslims because Islam teaches them to be this way. Then they act out of this kindness, thinking, it is better to do so and get rewarded than to forget the prize.

 

Yes Muslims keep their eyes on the prize, but that doesn't mean that this takes away their sincerity when acting kind. And it doesn't defeat the purpose of goodness at all. It just reminds them that they will be rewarded for what they do, and encourage them to do more and more.

 

Highly unprobable to me but If it is true then what else is there to do but endure all punishment.

You can do the little bit that God asks of you now and get a reward beyond measure.

 

Now the question is Can God forcefully make me like him?

No, but you love Him because of all that He has given you. If you try to count His blessings, never will you be able to count them.

 

No, because , he can threaten me, punish me kill me revive me ad kill me etc but he can not have my consensual likeness for him.

You fear Him because of the punishment. You love Him because His Mercy prevails over His wrath, and because He is merciful enough to give you an entire kingdom. Think about it, if he created Jupiter, can He not, just the same, create a kingdom for each person in Paradise?

 

If God really was kind and good etc, then his strength would have no relevance.

His Power has extreme relevance as this is how He is able to do anything He pleases. His Power allows Him to create good things and bad things. His Power is how He is able to create the universe, not to mention Heaven and Hell. His Power is how He is able to be Just in judging who really goes to Hell at all. His Power is that He is able to forgive. Just remember to look on both sides, always.

 

Besides if all else fails then I will count on God's mercy..Every one boasts about How merciful he is, so perhaps that's plan B. :D

If you can really count on plan B, then why doesn't the whole world do that? It isn't fair to the people who actually take heed of the message for you to be pardoned.

 

On the same note , let me ask u this, let's say that U are not the slefish type who does things only for rewards. Would U give up your faith and go against God IF u was threatened with eternal punishment?..Plz don't say it's not possible but just hypothetically speaking would u do that?

"Threatened" with eternal punishment is the wrong word, the correct word is "warned." Unless of course you're referring to the Hereafter where there will be no more warnings but truly eternal punishment. Anyway if this were the case, how could I possible "go against God"? If He could do all this to me, is there anyone who could save me from the Hellfire? Rather I would plead to Him to save me, because He is the only one able to do so. And if I don't turn to Him, who else will I turn to?

 

If u indeed do good not to get reawrds

Whatever good I do, it is with the intention of helping others, but also for the sake of God. Yes the two CAN coexist. Please try to understand that.

 

then U probably are willing to endure all punishment

I would never be "willing" and neither will anyone else. The only way you can ever comprehend this is if you understood what eternal punishment really is.

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I just don't understand why a lot of people can't comprehend the concept of mutual coexistance. It's black and white for you, and you are being a dichotomous thinker. Why don't you look at it this way: Kind and compassion is instilled in the hearts of true Muslims because Islam teaches them to be this way. Then they act out of this kindness, thinking, it is better to do so and get rewarded than to forget the prize.

Dichotomous thinker :D ..whats with the name calling :D

Mutual coexistance??plz test that hypothesis for yourself by playing devil's advocate because that will save me time and trouble :D

You can do the little bit that God asks of you now and get a reward beyond measure.

A little bit :D :D , but here we go with the same mentality.

What If i can prove to you that devil is stronger then God, and he ( devil) will reward u even greater if u sell your soul to him. would u be evil?

The idea is that some poeple will still say no because they want to do what's right not what's earns them "Great Reward", except for the greedy ones :D

No, but you love Him because of all that He has given you. If you try to count His blessings, never will you be able to count them.

If I count the hardships, I will be in the same boat. Unfortunately, I am not blessed with selective sight.

I can't turn a blind eye to all the evil things that God is ultimately responsible for.

You fear Him because of the punishment. You love Him because His Mercy prevails over His wrath, and because He is merciful enough to give you an entire kingdom. Think about it, if he created Jupiter, can He not, just the same, create a kingdom for each person in Paradise?

Again, I am not greedy or materialistic, do u not see how reward oriented your arguments are. :D

 

His Power has extreme relevance as this is how He is able to do anything He pleases. His Power allows Him to create good things and bad things. His Power is how He is able to create the universe, not to mention Heaven and Hell. His Power is how He is able to be Just in judging who really goes to Hell at all. His Power is that He is able to forgive. Just remember to look on both sides, always.

Can his power force me to change my mind? No, because that will interfere with free will. That makes him a victim of his own design, neverthless omnipotence and freewill are mutally exclusive and can not coexist.( Plz refrain from bringing up any blindness veils and or "only God knows" comebacks.)

Whatever good I do, it is with the intention of helping others, but also for the sake of God. Yes the two CAN coexist. Please try to understand that.

When u say coexist, do u mean that both factors put together is what makes u do good. Now Would u help others if God didn't care?? can u see how they're independant ?

peace

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Dichotomous thinker :D ..whats with the name calling :D

Well you were seeing things as black and white...no grays.

 

What If i can prove to you that devil is stronger then God, and he ( devil) will reward u even greater if u sell your soul to him. would u be evil?

Wow, you have a very wide imagination, I can barely picture that scenario. But no I wouldn't be evil. But this isn't the case here. The case is that God is good...and we do good AND get rewarded. Maybe by using the word "and" you will get it.

 

The idea is that some poeple will still say no because they want to do what's right not what's earns them "Great Reward", except for the greedy ones :D

:D lol, I laughed at that one. I mean, c'mon, greedy or not, wouldn't you want to be rewarded for what you did? Sure your intentions are pure, but think of it this way. I have $10,000 and I give $5,000 in charity...1/2 of my money. On top of that I spend a lot of my time with the sick and the poor and I try to help them in any way I can. I do this all out of the kindness of my heart, and because I love helping people. I come home every night and I could be one of two things:

 

1) Satisfied with myself.

2) Satisfied with myself and know that I will be rewarded as well, which makes the satisfaction grow.

 

I'd choose the second option. Why do people do good deeds anyway? Sometimes it's just so that they can be rewarded by satisfaction. Are these people selfish too? Or is it that maybe these people are kind, but recieve that reward as an extra bonus?

 

It's all about intention.

 

 

If I count the hardships, I will be in the same boat. Unfortunately, I am not blessed with selective sight.

I can't turn a blind eye to all the evil things that God is ultimately responsible for.

This is a complicated issue, but it's very simple in Islam. You thank God for everything you have, because you have a lot even if it's just for being alive (although you have much more than that.) And the evil in this world, you take as a test; will you be patient through it, or will you give in to spitefulness and callousness?

 

Again, I am not greedy or materialistic, do u not see how reward oriented your arguments are.

So if you were to choose between doing something good just for the sake of goodness and not getting rewarded or getting rewarded, you would choose the former?

 

Can his power force me to change my mind? No, because that will interfere with free will.

:D LOL who is it that gave you free will in the first place?

 

That makes him a victim of his own design, neverthless omnipotence and freewill are mutally exclusive and can not coexist.

Why not? Is it not Him who has the power to judge you and send you to the place in which you deserve to be (heaven or hell), after he has given you free will to choose where you want to be?

 

When u say coexist, do u mean that both factors put together is what makes u do good.

Goodness sprouts from kindness, and if you want to say kindness only, then fine. You just have in the back of your mind, "I will be rewarded."

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Salamz

Well you were seeing things as black and white...no grays.

so now I'm color blind :D ...just kidding i was just trying to be a wise cracker. :D

Wow, you have a very wide imagination, I can barely picture that scenario. But no I wouldn't be evil. But this isn't the case here. The case is that God is good...and we do good AND get rewarded. Maybe by using the word "and" you will get it.

Aha! :D ..see now if u wouldn't be evil despite the great rewards, then u do good for the sake of good. To you then rewards are less signicant. That's what I was saying, that instead of concentrating on the rewards, shouldn't the emphasis be on cultivating character? it just bother me when people keep saying do this and be rewarded.

:D lol, I laughed at that one. I mean, c'mon, greedy or not, wouldn't you want to be rewarded for what you did? Sure your intentions are pure, but think of it this way. I have $10,000 and I give $5,000 in charity...1/2 of my money. On top of that I spend a lot of my time with the sick and the poor and I try to help them in any way I can. I do this all out of the kindness of my heart, and because I love helping people. I come home every night and I could be one of two things:

 

1) Satisfied with myself.

2) Satisfied with myself and know that I will be rewarded as well, which makes the satisfaction grow.

 

I'd choose the second option. Why do people do good deeds anyway? Sometimes it's just so that they can be rewarded by satisfaction. Are these people selfish too? Or is it that maybe these people are kind, but recieve that reward as an extra bonus?

 

It's all about intention.

laughter is the best medicine. :D

Again u kinda reinforce what i said. I am not saying that rewards and kindness of heart can not coexist. Rather what I claim is that they are statistically independant.

So rewards can make your good deed more worth a while, but even if there was negative rewards, people ( the non greedy ones) will still do what's right knowing that there is no payoffs. Similarly, I personally believe that God is not good, it doesn't matter to me if I am exempt from rewards or get negative rewards ( hell)because I am doing what's right and that itself is the payoff.

Having said that, the only way I can appreciate God is if I find evidence that he is good etc. I hope u can see why then mentioning hell and reards bear no significance.

This is a complicated issue, but it's very simple in Islam. You thank God for everything you have, because you have a lot even if it's just for being alive (although you have much more than that.) And the evil in this world, you take as a test; will you be patient through it, or will you give in to spitefulness and callousness?

Maybe i didn't want to exist, why should I be thankful for it then

about the test, Why couldn't God give us a test which is easier (I'm thinking 4 questions multiple choice open book or something along those lines )

But seriously, he (God) is nice and merciful etc,..just give us an easy test. I know what u may say,humans are lazy. If we were to get a pay check every two weeks for sittings home and doing nothing, we would complain about picking up the check :D

Still, God is unlimited, he can make the test so easy that everyone would be satisfied.

Besides, what's the test measuring? our dedication ? goodness ? Isn't the whole point to win the bet between him and iblis ( I say he should've squash that cracker called Satan at once :D instead of betting poor humans :D ) I say forget betting because god can already know the result without putting us through the painful process. Like maybe using a linear regression model or maybe testing the hpothesis ( human will make it) using a small sample size snf maybe a 99% confidence interval.. :D then again maybe god hates math and statistics.

Sorry if I rambled for too long

( not really but just being polite :D )

 

Peace

Edited by llogical

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Peace llogical,

 

:D lol, you're very funny, I amire the way you debate.

 

Just wanted to say that for now, I will reply to your post in a little while, man it's really hard replying to everything...time flies!

 

Anyway thanks for being kind...

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Peace llogical,

 

:D lol, you're very funny, I amire the way you debate.

 

Just wanted to say that for now, I will reply to your post in a little while, man it's really hard replying to everything...time flies!

 

Anyway thanks for being kind...

Thanks :D, take your time, just as long u answer b4 the end of the world bcaz after that the info will be of no use to me. I wonder if hell has internet :D

peace

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Salam llogical,

 

Sorry for the late reply.

 

Aha! :D ..see now if u wouldn't be evil despite the great rewards, then u do

good for the sake of good. To you then rewards are less signicant. That's what I was saying, that instead of concentrating on the rewards, shouldn't the emphasis be on cultivating character? it just bother me when people keep saying do this and be rewarded.

Well I think I explained quite well my position on this. Muslims do good deeds for the sake of Allah, and this is the way to get rewarded (and no other way.) Now keep in mind that Allah is Good. Is there anything or anyone more "good?"

 

Again u kinda reinforce what i said. I am not saying that rewards and kindness of heart can not coexist. Rather what I claim is that they are statistically independant.

Ok, I don't know why that is relevant though. I mean, all you really need to know is that they can coexist. The fact that you agree with this should be sufficient...

 

In the scenario you thought of, I chose to be on the side of "good" even if it meant not getting rewarded. I chose this because evil, is, well...evil. I guess to sum this topic up, and hopefully close it, is just to say, do good out of kindness, and therefore know that your Lord is pleased with you, and for this reason you do get rewarded for your good deeds.

 

Similarly, I personally believe that God is not good

Ahh...now I understand the problem.

 

Having said that, the only way I can appreciate God is if I find evidence that he is good etc.

Ok, you probably think that God is not good because He created evil, and does not stop it from happening, am I right? Then my response to you is this. Why do you blame good for evil? I mean, this is exactly like people blaming Islam for the atrocities they see. Many a time people fail to comprehend that Islam, in its truthfulness, is a religion of peace. It is the people who are corrupt... Then we can apply the same concept with God, while He is peaceful, He has given people free will, and some choose evil, it is their own choice. Then God is Just, not unfair, He punishes the oppressors, and rewards the patient. It is quite a simple concept. God is extremely balanced, punishing the evil and rewarding the good. And even more interestingly, His Mercy prevails over his Wrath. So He is far more than only Just...why is that hard to understand?

 

I have a suggestion for you. Find someone who has a convertable if you don't own one, borrow it and make sure the hood is off, and go for a drive on a cool and mostly clear night when there is a full moon out. Pass by sparkling water and beautiful trees, and look up at the night sky. Then tell me, do you have any other definition of peace? Please really try it, concentrating only on the nature around you, and not on simply driving...it is a wonderful experience, and maybe even an enlightening one. My point is, God is balanced. He created peace, so don't make Him out to be anything other than good.

 

 

Maybe i didn't want to exist, why should I be thankful for it then

Well God created you with good reason. Don't you understand that He has promised Heaven to the good? I mean, if you aren't thankful for that...what can you be thankful for? Ok, that's easy. How about your life, your health, your ability to feel, food, water, shelter, family, friends, etc. etc. etc. So you have a lot to thank God for, because without Him you wouldn't have anything. Think of it this way:

 

Say: "See ye?- If your stream be some morning lost (in the underground earth), who then can supply you with clear-flowing water?" [Qur'an, Surat al-Mulk, Verse]

 

And that is a verse in the Qu'an. I love this verse because it really gets you thinking, and this concept can be applied to much more. For example, if you lose anything, psychologically or otherwise, who will be able to give it to you? You have so much to be thankful for, so don't be stubborn and say "what if I never asked to be created?" because either way, you are created with good cause.

 

We created not the heavens, the earth, and all between them, merely in (idle) sport: We created them not except for just ends: but most of them do not understand. [Qur'an, Surat ad-Dukhan, Verses 38-39]

 

 

about the test, Why couldn't God give us a test which is easier

Easier...? Exactly how could a test of faith be easier than it is? For example, someone loses someone he loves, and autimatically he loses faith in God, thinking "how can God be good if he allows death at a young age?" etc. Well God is testing this person, will he be patient through this time? Because if he will then God will not let his patience be lost.

 

Besides, what's the test measuring? our dedication ? goodness ?

The test is of faith and patience.

 

Isn't the whole point to win the bet between him and iblis ( I say he should've squash that cracker called Satan at once :D instead of betting poor humans :D )

It's not exactly a bet, because a bet would imply that there is a possibility of God losing. If God wanted, He could have made everyone believe:

 

And unto Allah leads straight the Way, but there are ways that turn aside: if Allah had willed, He could have guided all of you. [Qur'an, Surat an-Nahl, Verse 9]

 

I say forget betting because god can already know the result without putting us through the painful process.

Right, He knows...yet He doesn't force it.

Edited by Haqqul_Yaqeen

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Walaykumasalam,

Better late then never :D no worries take ur time.

Ahh...now I understand the problem.

Ok, you probably think that God is not good because He created evil, and does not stop it from happening, am I right? Then my response to you is this. Why do you blame good for evil? I mean, this is exactly like people blaming Islam for the atrocities they see. Many a time people fail to comprehend that Islam, in its truthfulness, is a religion of peace. It is the people who are corrupt... Then we can apply the same concept with God, while He is peaceful, He has given people free will, and some choose evil, it is their own choice. Then God is Just, not unfair, He punishes the oppressors, and rewards the patient. It is quite a simple concept. God is extremely balanced, punishing the evil and rewarding the good. And even more interestingly, His Mercy prevails over his Wrath. So He is far more than only Just...why is that hard to understand?

 

U R right in the sense that I don't think that God is good because he is responsible for Evil. However religion is to it's followers is not logically comparable to God as to Evil or God as to Good. That's because good/evil are somewhat subjective. I would hate to disect this at the moment so et me know if u really need for me to back it up. .

About the balance, If God balances good with Evil then there should be some sort of equilibrium right. How is it logical then to call god Good because he can also be called evil (since he balances both). The only way God can be good is if like u said, his benevolance exceeds his wrath. I can buy that, but that would throw out the whole balance theory since now Evil doesn't balance with Good.About freewill, good point. :D but for me not u :D ..because freewill can prove that God is not Good. Because freewill means that God will let us choose. He knows what we may choose, he can intervene but he won't intervene. Now since God designed us all, he knew that some people will choose evil. Being Good , he probably would hope that those poeple would rather choose good but he knews that they will hoose evil. Let me make an analogy, Would u give an infant a knife knowing that the infant will ( not can but will) hurt himself? Forget free will of the infant bcaz u have foreknowledge and know that the infant will make his own choice of hurting himself?

WHen God created Iblis, and then men both with freewill, he knowingly gave the infant a knife. He knew what we will choose, because not only he designed us, he has foreknowledge. Thus he set us up knowingly. It's a setup because if god had designed us all to be Good by nature, (good nature+ free will = no evil) we would all be good. God can do that ,make all humans innately good so we don't do evil. But nnoooo, I bet God wanted some of the people to go to hell to make it interesting. Simply because If he didn't want, if he didn't allow, it would not be true. Thus the freewill doesn't get God off the hook but rather proves that he specifically desined some of us to suffer and go to hell. If u say no, he designed all of us to go to heaven then I will point out all the manufacturing defects (including myself) who will not make it to heaven. We are all doing what God planned to do because to go against his plan will undermind his omnipotence. Thus the free will must be an illusion.

 

According to Quran :

 

We will what Allah Wills.

Allah can choose to guide whom he wishes.

Allah can cast veils of darkness on certain people.

 

 

All these violate the freewill concept suggesting that God not an innocent bystander.

 

I have a suggestion for you. Find someone who has a convertable if you don't own one, borrow it and make sure the hood is off, and go for a drive on a cool and mostly clear night when there is a full moon out. Pass by sparkling water and beautiful trees, and look up at the night sky. Then tell me, do you have any other definition of peace? Please really try it, concentrating only on the nature around you, and not on simply driving...it is a wonderful experience, and maybe even an enlightening one. My point is, God is balanced. He created peace, so don't make Him out to be anything other than good.

 

LOL.I live in NY, not switzerland there is no sparkling water or beautiful trees. Only the dirty brown hudson river full of lumber, toxic waste, dead bodies (courtesy of Italians). Not much trees either except for the ones that could be smoked. Ok so the tree part is bit stretch:blush: But I've been in a convertable plenty of times and enjoyed nature at many times too. It's not that I don't appreciate all that stuff, I can be thankful to God for all that stuff and more, like my good looks, witts, talents etc etc (www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.nearlygood(contact admin if its a beneficial link)"]shiny.gif[/url] However, I can't overlook others that are borned retarded,with mutated limbs or in unfortunate circumstances like famine. The people who can't feel the wind going through their hair in the covertible due to male patterned baldness ( hey some people take it seriously :D ) Or the people who may look cool with black shades but can't see the beautiful trees due to glucoma. (www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.nearlygood(contact admin if its a beneficial link)"]tears.gif[/url]

Again, u see half full only and I can't disregard half empty. God has control over this situation and every other. Human actions are one thing but he can atleast control natural disasters. Besides, he is smart enough not to get himself into situation where he can't help, even if he wanted to. Everything he does is planned thus either he planned all this suffering or he maynot be as powerful as we think he is.

 

Well God created you with good reason. Don't you understand that He has promised Heaven to the good? I mean, if you aren't thankful for that...what can you be thankful for? Ok, that's easy. How about your life, your health, your ability to feel, food, water, shelter, family, friends, etc. etc. etc. So you have a lot to thank God for, because without Him you wouldn't have anything. Think of it this way:

Like i said b4, I would reject a heaven that comes at the price of my and other people's misery. You said it yourself that rewards mean nothing to you with out the good deed. God doesn't need to market the heaven, that would only motivate greedy people and as far as I knw Greed=bad. Maybe that's the real test :D , those who go for heaven get hell. But like i said, I can't say that there are many great things that one appreciates about life but the opposite is also true. I rather be realistic then choose optimism by ignoring the harsh relities.

It's not exactly a bet, because a bet would imply that there is a possibility of God losing. If God wanted, He could have made everyone believe:

Bet, wager many names, one concept.. we are the guineapigs that are here as a result.

My point was that If god doesn't need to prove something to Satan then why not let us chill in Eden. I mean not the long way.

I guess I am approaching the designated "we are too stupid to know it all" argument.

but being proactive, let me say now that people don't choose to be stupid. Rational Intelligence has a string genetic component ( scientifically proven) thus who is responsible for the people that are too stupid ( perhaps like myslef :D ) to understand that God is Good. That must be the only other reason( stupidity) because using myself as example, I do not like to make a wrong, or the least beneficial choice deliberately.

something doesn't add up somewhere unless...God is Evil. :D

 

 

Peace

Edited by llogical

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Peace,

 

I have to say your points are interesting and thought provoking.

 

good/evil are somewhat subjective.

I don't quite understand. Morality and simple conscience should make them objective, no? I mean, everyone in the world can tell evil from good...

 

How is it logical then to call god Good because he can also be called evil (since he balances both).

What I meant by "balance" is that He can reward good and punish evil. He doesn't punish anyone unjustly. And since, like I said, His Mercy prevails over His Wrath, He can let people enter heaven, even if they do not deserve it.

 

The only way God can be good is if like u said, his benevolance exceeds his wrath.

According to this, God is good, because the bold statement is true.

 

Would u give an infant a knife knowing that the infant will ( not can but will) hurt himself?

Let me tell you why this analogy is not valid. The baby, like you said, WILL hurt himself. But the human can choose IF he wants to hurt himself.

 

Forget free will of the infant

But this is the only thing that is significant.

 

bcaz u have foreknowledge and know that the infant will make his own choice of hurting himself?

Maybe if you gave me another analogy...because a baby can't choose. This is what's relevant...if the baby is able to choose.

 

he set us up knowingly.

You act as if God is out to get you, lol. If this were true then He wouldn't have gave you free will in the first place, rather He could have put everyone in hell. This is what evil would be, not huge mansions in gardens of eternity given to people who choose the right path.

 

It's a setup because if god had designed us all to be Good by nature, (good nature+ free will = no evil) we would all be good. God can do that ,make all humans innately good so we don't do evil.

If we were good by nature, we wouldn't need free will at all.

 

But nnoooo, I bet God wanted some of the people to go to hell to make it interesting.

LOL, "to make it interesting?" :D Anyway this would interfere with the idea of free will. If God influenced the inhabitants of hell, just so that they would go to hell, then there is no point of free will at all...yet He didn't influence anyone.

 

If u say no, he designed all of us to go to heaven then I will point out all the manufacturing defects (including myself) who will not make it to heaven.

He designed us to think for ourselves, and choose. It is really as simple as that. Whoever chooses heaven, can work for that, and whoever chooses hell, can work for that.

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We are all doing what God planned to do because to go against his plan will undermind his omnipotence. Thus the free will must be an illusion.

We have a circle called 'free will.' You have to know to put this circle inside a bigger circle which is called 'God's Will.' Yet the bigger circle doesn't interfere with the smaller, and so both can exist. While the concept of free will is full and complete, still it cannot go against God's Will.

 

We will what Allah Wills.

Ok, but just because Allah wills something doesn't mean He likes it. He gave us the choice, He knows best, and if we choose evil, he doesn't like it, but allows it to happen, so it is in his Will, yes.

 

Allah can choose to guide whom he wishes.

Yes, but what, you think He just chooses random people saying "hey you can go to heaven and uhh.. oh yeah, you go to hell," just like that?? He guides those who actually want to be guided. And guiding isn't forcing. BIGGG difference here.

 

Allah can cast veils of darkness on certain people.

Certain people who are so extremely against His existence, etc. He knows best who those people are, for He is God.

 

All these violate the freewill concept suggesting that God not an innocent bystander.

God is not a "bystander" for He is tending to His people every day and night. He gives those who ask, and guides those who ask, and tests people to judge their patience, then if they do not act accordingly, He gives them a chance to repent. If, like in your eyes, He is just out to get you, He wouldn't even allow repentance.

 

LOL.I live in NY

I know...what are you doing online at almost 5 AM??

 

not switzerland there is no sparkling water or beautiful trees.

Are you kidding me? I live in NY too and it's beautiful...look at the Verrazano Bridge. I was referring to it when its lights reflect on the water and make it sparkle. :D And what do you mean no beautiful trees...haven't you been to Central Park in June? Ok, so NY isn't Switzerland, but still you can see beauty here too. Anyway now I'm going way off topic. :D

 

It's not that I don't appreciate all that stuff, I can be thankful to God for all that stuff and more, like my good looks, witts, talents etc etc However, I can't overlook others that are borned retarded,with mutated limbs or in unfortunate circumstances like famine. The people who can't feel the wind going through their hair in the covertible due to male patterned baldness ( hey some people take it seriously :D ) Or the people who may look cool with black shades but can't see the beautiful trees due to glucoma.

But there is a reason for everything, bad or good. And then we go back to what good can come out of seemingly bad situations. "Fair is foul and foul is fair."

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Again, u see half full only and I can't disregard half empty.

I see the good, and appreciate it, then the bad, I can just accept it and God's reasons.

 

Besides, he is smart enough not to get himself into situation where he can't help, even if he wanted to.

He is able to do anything, and everything.

 

Like i said b4, I would reject a heaven that comes at the price of my and other people's misery.

I think you may need to learn more about heaven and hell.

 

Greed=bad. Maybe that's the real test :D , those who go for heaven get hell.

haha I hope you're not serious. lol, God isn't out to get you, nor is He tricking you in any way. :D

 

But like i said, I can't say that there are many great things that one appreciates about life but the opposite is also true. I rather be realistic then choose optimism by ignoring the harsh relities.

No one is saying ignore them, just realize that they have a reason.

 

My point was that If god doesn't need to prove something to Satan then why not let us chill in Eden. I mean not the long way.

So basically you're asking, why are we living here on earth anyway? If we were to be created, then why weren't we created good, so that we can just all be in Heaven enjoying ourselves. Well our answer to the reason for existence is:

 

I have only created Jinns and men, that they may serve Me. [Qur'an, Surat adh-Dhariyat, Verse 56]

 

I guess I am approaching the designated "we are too stupid to know it all" argument.

I think you're very intelligent, it's not that we're stupid, but we don't have the capacity to know everything. But yes, there is a reason for everything, and God knows best.

 

 

P.S. Sorry for the multiple replies...I must have exceeded the limit for one post.

Edited by Haqqul_Yaqeen

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I don't quite understand. Morality and simple conscience should make them objective, no? I mean, everyone in the world can tell evil from good...

Not every one because people have different definitions of Good.

Even Socrates couldn't fully describe what good is. I bet Illl fumble but lemme try. Good is subjective because good ( as adjective or feeling) doesn't exist in a physical form or substance. It may have an object reality but since we each perceive reality based on our own subjective eye, (being objective is hypothecical) There is no way to empirically understand good.

Let me ask you this, Do u believe that people are naturally good and it's the society/satan that makes them bad or do u think that people are naturally bad , and the religion, society make them good?

Regardless of what u say there are people who will disagree, we are not talking about doing good but determining good. If there is an objective good then why are people so blind to see? LEmme give u one simple reason for which alone God can't be good.

He is perfect. He is good. Does that mean he is perfectly good. Because we know god has choice over this, he doesn't have to be half good an dhalf bad, there is no rules, he makes hi sown rulez. They only two three things tht u can say are

1. He is perfectly good.

2.he is partially good and partially bad and that combination in itslef is good.

3.We don;t know.

#3 don't help so we down to 1&2.

It can't be number one bcaz he is not always good ( even .0001% of wrath counts)

Now down to #2. Maybe half good and half bad is what's necessary to be good... Fine but who made that rule? ...God right ncaz he alone had the choice to choose 100% good as oppose to more good then bad?

Sorry to be so tedious but the existance of evil proves that good is not good.

Free will aside, he has the choice to be the root cause of all good vs some good and some bad, he chose the later.Sorry for being too tedious. :D

 

 

What I meant by "balance" is that He can reward good and punish evil. He doesn't punish anyone unjustly. And since, like I said, His Mercy prevails over His Wrath, He can let people enter heaven, even if they do not deserve it.

I was talking about the physical world only.heaven and hell can we balance but does the same apply to the existing world?

people who are borned paralized or with diseases,how is it their fault.

I guess that's where the test comes in.

But why is that we all are taking a different test?. Does god suspect we will cheat hence the different versions?

How is it fair? (In this world ofocurce)

If u say that he may not be fair in this world but that's the point and in the hereafter he makes up for it, I will say that he had a choice to make be fair in both worlds.

 

Let me tell you why this analogy is not valid. The baby, like you said, WILL hurt himself. But the human can choose IF he wants to hurt himself.

 

the human will hurt himself too.

Think outside the time.

Let's say that I make a choice by my own will only. Now it's in the past. But since it happened , God must have known it first since he knows future. God has foreknowledge, even though he doesn't effect the chouce he already knows how many people will do good and how many bad. Now the fact that he knew this before and he made us anyway would suggest that he knowingly created us to our doom. Think of it like this. U want to design a good car.

U make design a virtual prototype and through computer simulation realize that this car has problems.

If you go ahead anyway, U purposely want to create a bad car.

U can either redesign ....or accept the fact that the car u made was not perfect or good.

If God was good then he would have let us all be in heaven.

Let me sum up with one last explanation.

 

No one (sane) would choose hell over heaven.

People don't choose hell and heaven and act in order to get there rather our acts determine where we (supposively) go.

treat this as a true mathematical function to understand what i mean.

 

If god really wanted something to happen X then, it will happen Y

Since this is true , Y is the only result given X then it don't matter what u add or substract to the result will be Y

that's what power is, Thus all the pain and suffering, God has control over and people suffer only bcaz he wants them to. If god really wanted me to go to heaven, blind veils, Satan himself, and all my stupidity would get in the way for me to realize that God is good.

Edited by llogical

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We have a circle called 'free will.' You have to know to put this circle inside a bigger circle which is called 'God's Will.' Yet the bigger circle doesn't interfere with the smaller, and so both can exist. While the concept of free will is full and complete, still it cannot go against God's Will.

If my will can't go against God's will then My will can only be what god's will is.

My will is to disobey him because he is evil, then this must also be Allah's will.

Ok, but just because Allah wills something doesn't mean He likes it. He gave us the choice, He knows best, and if we choose evil, he doesn't like it, but allows it to happen, so it is in his Will, yes.

On contrare, God has no ne to answer to he can do whatever he wants, why would he then do things that he hate? Why would he do things against his will? If God wanted to be evil, who would stop him? Isn't it true is that whatever god does is automatically good, thus good is judged by what god does since he can't logically do bad.

Yes, but what, you think He just chooses random people saying "hey you can go to heaven and uhh.. oh yeah, you go to hell," just like that?? He guides those who actually want to be guided. And guiding isn't forcing. BIGGG difference here.

true guiding is helping. Misguiding is forcing casting black seals is forcing and that isn't fair.

I know...what are you doing online at almost 5 AM??

Are you kidding me? I live in NY too and it's beautiful...look at the Verrazano Bridge. I was referring to it when its lights reflect on the water and make it sparkle. :D And what do you mean no beautiful trees...haven't you been to Central Park in June? Ok, so NY isn't Switzerland, but still you can see beauty here too. Anyway now I'm going way off topic. :D

I know it;s late but I'm an insomniac :D ( seriously, I have sleeping diorder ..it's not funny :D ).

Ok I 'm busted about the trees I was exhaggerating :D

But I'm in Queens, I've been to verrazano, trust me the 7 dollar toll will get in the way of me enjoying water. U probably in brooklyn, staten island or otherwise probably rich :D .... anyways shouldn't u keep your eyes on the road instead of starring at the water? :D Anyways I think u must be getting a high reception of God in your area because I've been looking for him for a minute and no signal. I have tried several signal boosters like yourself but no luck. :D

Because when it comes to the God depicted by abrahamic faiths, his chracteristic contradict lots of stuff.

 

Peace

Edited by llogical

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I see the good, and appreciate it, then the bad, I can just accept it and God's reasons.

But u do that bcaz u confide in him, u have strong belief, the reasons for bad are not important bcaz based on my speculation , u will not question God. Becaz iblis questioned God and desputed his rationale,(Qiyas) and he was damned.

U may call that good rationale, but to me it's Subliminal conditioning. Bcaz the moral of this story is "stay away from questioning God (or Qiyas)"

It's a big handicap in respect to free thought.

Besides The thought, "God is good even when he is bad" is beyond understanding as it contradicts logic.

 

Well our answer to the reason for existence is:

 

I have only created Jinns and men, that they may serve Me. [Qur'an, Surat adh-Dhariyat, Verse 56]

I think you're very intelligent, it's not that we're stupid, but we don't have the capacity to know everything. But yes, there is a reason for everything, and God knows best.

P.S. Sorry for the multiple replies...I must have exceeded the limit for one post.

I am familiar with that answer and simply, I don't find it comforting. I was created so I can submit myself and worship god only? That's my life's worth?

Plus that must not be it because i am not worshipping god, thus this puts my circle W outside god's circle G. how can I not do something that God desined me to do? Thus free will itself conflicts with this purpose. again I mean in this world only.

 

 

Sorry if I am making u write essays :D

It's probably better not to split the posts by quotes though. :D

 

 

Salamz

Edited by llogical

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Peace llogical,

 

I must be known for my late replies by now... :D Sorry, I didn't have internet access for a couple of days. Anywaaaaaay...

 

Not every one because people have different definitions of Good.

Even Socrates couldn't fully describe what good is. I bet Illl fumble but lemme try. Good is subjective because good ( as adjective or feeling) doesn't exist in a physical form or substance. It may have an object reality but since we each perceive reality based on our own subjective eye, (being objective is hypothecical) There is no way to empirically understand good.

Maybe this is true sometimes, with very technical situations...but let's not be melodramatic...anyone in the world (sane) no matter what religion, or no religion, will know that, for example, lying isn't good, stealing is bad, etc. Our conscience alone tells us what good or bad is, and no one can argue with this because everyone feels it.

 

Let me ask you this, Do u believe that people are naturally good and it's the society/satan that makes them bad or do u think that people are naturally bad , and the religion, society make them good?

Do you mean naturally as in, what they are born as? If so, I believe that everyone is born pure. It's extremely clear that a baby is born pure, I think anyone can see this...then his desires take over. It's not that he's evil, as this is a very general and strong word, it's just that people are weak against their desires...yet strong enough to control themselves, they can be good if they choose to be, and bad if they choose to be...I hope that answered your question.

 

If there is an objective good then why are people so blind to see?

Sometimes people are influenced by their beliefs, for example, some people support Zionism saying that it is good, while people like me oppose it saying that it is evil. However, everyone knows that killing innocent people isn't good. I guess I'm talking about the "general good" while you are incorporating beliefs, etc. Universally, though, people know what is good, yet are tempted to do otherwise, sometimes it isn't that they are blind but they let their desires get in the way...some realize what they did, some are still caught up with their desires to see it.

 

It can't be number one bcaz he is not always good ( even .0001% of wrath counts)

He is good, He is perfect, He is perfectly good. Wrath my friend doesn't make someone "not good" IF it is justified. Now Allah has justified everything He did/does/will do, so, for example, punishing a murderer will be justified. But again, with His boundless mercy, He can forgive all sins.

 

Sorry to be so tedious but the existance of evil proves that good is not good.

The existence of evil proves nothing but that some people are extremely corrupt, using their desires to lead their way instead of true guidance.

 

Sorry for being too tedious. :D

You're not being tedious at all. :D

 

But why is that we all are taking a different test?

I can't give you a 100% complete answer here, but I will say that Allah knows best who should be tested with what. I know this is probably not the answer you're looking for, in your eyes this probably doesn't prove anything. But what I mean by Allah knows best is that we are all tested differently, yet He never burdens anyone with more than he/she can bear. Also, Allah tests believers a lot, because He wants to make sure they will keep believing no matter what.

 

Let's say that I make a choice by my own will only. Now it's in the past. But since it happened , God must have known it first since he knows future. God has foreknowledge, even though he doesn't effect the chouce he already knows how many people will do good and how many bad. Now the fact that he knew this before and he made us anyway would suggest that he knowingly created us to our doom.

Don't you realize that by saying this you are limiting our free will?

 

Yes, Allah has foreknowledge of everything. So He could have stopped us from the beginning, but He chose not to. He chose to give us the freedom to do whatever we want, and then be held accountable for it. Now let me ask you this. Why did you choose to look at the only one side by saying He created us to our doom? Why didn't you say, He chose to create us to our reward? And this is just using your own method of thinking...but in fact you shouldn't ask yourself this at all. Can't you just accept that everyone has free will, and that God knows what we will choose? It isn't because of God's knowledge that we choose what's bad...it's our own selves, our own inner desires, etc.

 

I just don't think there are as many complications as some people like to point out. In fact everything falls into place with Islam, every piece fits together, and the harmony is so amazing that it cannot be found anywhere else.

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If my will can't go against God's will then My will can only be what god's will is.

My will is to disobey him because he is evil, then this must also be Allah's will.

What is meant by your will being inside His will is that there are some things you are not able to do (for example, you cannot create a leaf of grass) but you can do things as a human that Allah will not interfere in. So even though what you do may be what Allah wills, this doesn't interfere with your own free will, so you can decide what to do.

 

On contrare, God has no ne to answer to he can do whatever he wants, why would he then do things that he hate?

For one thing, it isn't Him who does things He hates, it's the people. Yes He can stop them, but why should He? Why don't they stop themselves? He gave them that choice, and then He offered boundless reward in return? What more do they want?

 

Why would he do things against his will? If God wanted to be evil, who would stop him? Isn't it true is that whatever god does is automatically good, thus good is judged by what god does since he can't logically do bad.

I have to say you ask the deepest questions...you would make a great philosopher if you aren't one already. However, we are living in a particular world, so there's no need to think "if God wanted to, good can be evil" because that is ultimately what you are saying. And this doesn't really matter because the fact of the matter is, good is good and evil is evil. God's Plan is complete and perfect, there are absolutely no flaws in it.

 

true guiding is helping. Misguiding is forcing casting black seals is forcing and that isn't fair.

Oh but it is fair. God doesn't forcibly seal a heart by random. In fact it is people who want Allah to seal their hearts. They will openly challenge Him, "I don't believe in you and never will, I don't want to be guided, etc. etc." these people don't deserve to be guided, they do not believe in Allah, nor are they open to.

 

I am familiar with that answer and simply, I don't find it comforting. I was created so I can submit myself and worship god only? That's my life's worth?

What do you want to do with your life? Maybe this will help clear this question.

 

P.S. Even after all this, I don't know if you believe in God. I mean, you talk about Him a lot, but I don't know if you're just patronizing me or do you really believe in Him?

Edited by Haqqul_Yaqeen

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Peace Illogical,

 

I must be known for my late replies by now... :D Sorry, I didn't have internet access for a couple of days. Anywaaaaaay...

Maybe this is true sometimes, with very technical situations...but let's not be melodramatic...anyone in the world (sane) no matter what religion, or no religion, will know that, for example, lying isn't good, stealing is bad, etc. Our conscience alone tells us what good or bad is, and no one can argue with this because everyone feels it.

Salamz

U should pray 2 xtra nafals for every lateness :D .. Just kidding life's a busy task, no need to apologize. :D

Do you mean naturally as in, what they are born as? If so, I believe that everyone is born pure. It's extremely clear that a baby is born pure, I think anyone can see this...then his desires take over. It's not that he's evil, as this is a very general and strong word, it's just that people are weak against their desires...yet strong enough to control themselves, they can be good if they choose to be, and bad if they choose to be...I hope that answered your question.

U did indeed, though it wasn't needed since I mentioned the question in a rhetorical sense.

Sometimes people are influenced by their beliefs, for example, some people support Zionism saying that it is good, while people like me oppose it saying that it is evil. However, everyone knows that killing innocent people isn't good. I guess I'm talking about the "general good" while you are incorporating beliefs, etc. Universally, though, people know what is good, yet are tempted to do otherwise, sometimes it isn't that they are blind but they let their desires get in the way...some realize what they did, some are still caught up with their desires to see it.

I did incorporate beliefs into Good. Because we are talking about God who is the product of Belief. If I get u correct then people only deliberately do bad since they are the victim of their desires. People who can control the desire do good.

But didn't God give us those desires? Satan can only influence them, but he didn't create them. That's why I think God set us up. If he didn't give us desires, we would have 0 chance to do bad. I know he gave us free will and the strength to over come those desires but that's takng chances.

It's like throwing me inside a lion's cage with a sword.

With a little struggle I can probably kill the beast but why throw me in the cage at all?

Throwing me in the cage is not better than not throwing me in the cage.

The sword can guarantee my survival fo rup to 99% but the left over 1 % could haven been eliminated.

He is good, He is perfect, He is perfectly good. Wrath my friend doesn't make someone "not good" IF it is justified. Now Allah has justified everything He did/does/will do, so, for example, punishing a murderer will be justified. But again, with His boundless mercy, He can forgive all sins.

According to my definition of perfection, It is a state that can't be further improved.

.0001 % wrath can be improved to 0% wrath. That's an improvement.

I don't think wrath is good or beneficial and I hope u agree, thus the total absense of wrath is what's perfectly good. I agree that justice and wrath has a trade off, that's exacty why the concept of a perfectly just/merciful God is paradoxical.

A Merciful God would forgive murderers, but a Just god would punish them.

A all knowing God could have stopped the murder to begin with, But restraint from divine intervention wouldn't let him.

What makes good sense independantly, makes no sense when put together.

You're not being tedious at all. :D

I can't give you a 100% complete answer here, but I will say that Allah knows best who should be tested with what. I know this is probably not the answer you're looking for, in your eyes this probably doesn't prove anything. But what I mean by Allah knows best is that we are all tested differently, yet He never burdens anyone with more than he/she can bear. Also, Allah tests believers a lot, because He wants to make sure they will keep believing no matter what.

Not tedious? I was hoping u would agree :D caz it's cool to be tedious. :D

Sorry, i often get these urges to say dumb things :D

NE ways, God doesn't burden a soul more then it can bear.

I like this Classical quote that Glorifies God, but there is no way to test this.

I mean what would be an example of such a soul? I would say that sinners are overburdened souls, people who commit suicide are over burdened souls, I am an over burdened soul :D. Ofcource there is no way to prove my claim or yours.

Don't you realize that by saying this you are limiting our free will?

 

Yes, Allah has foreknowledge of everything. So He could have stopped us from the beginning, but He chose not to. He chose to give us the freedom to do whatever we want, and then be held accountable for it. Now let me ask you this. Why did you choose to look at the only one side by saying He created us to our doom? Why didn't you say, He chose to create us to our reward? And this is just using your own method of thinking...but in fact you shouldn't ask yourself this at all. Can't you just accept that everyone has free will, and that God knows what we will choose? It isn't because of God's knowledge that we choose what's bad...it's our own selves, our own inner desires, etc.

I did , in regards to freewill, I was trying to point out that there are mixed messages.

U are right about me only bringing the negative side of things but I already agree with the postive stuff that God does. It's useless to bring it up. Besides the point I'm trying to prove is that God can't be perefctly Good. There is no need for me to compare good with bad because 1 bad will disprove that God is not perfectly good.

Not that I am out to prove that God is bad but I must be critical in order to satisfy all the concerns.

 

Peace

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What is meant by your will being inside His will is that there are some things you are not able to do (for example, you cannot create a leaf of grass) but you can do things as a human that Allah will not interfere in. So even though what you do may be what Allah wills, this doesn't interfere with your own free will, so you can decide what to do.

In other words, we can do things like eating the apple or orange, because his want is nuetral.

We can also do things that he wants us to do, but can we Not do the things that he wants us to do? Probably not. That's what I meant by illusory freewill or illusary omnipotence, because free will and omnipotenec can't co exist.

For one thing, it isn't Him who does things He hates, it's the people. Yes He can stop them, but why should He? Why don't they stop themselves? He gave them that choice, and then He offered boundless reward in return? What more do they want?

The lacking knowledge or power.

lack of knowledge, lack of strength (to control the desires), lack of judgement, lack of sanity, lack of self control etc.

It's not logical for some one sane to voluntarily Do bad if he is not lacking something.

It's not likely for people to miss prayers just to anger the God. I know, it can be the good ole Satan Whispering stuff in people's ears. But Who Unleashed Satan?

How can we separate him from the figment of our imagination?

Why should we struggle just to please God who claims to be Good/merciful while watching us suffer? It's like being in an abusive relationship where no matter what we do, it's our fault. Being a Human is an endless guilt trip. Sorry to flood u with all these Y's but It feels as if I am like a seals that just does tricks for the master in return for measley rewards.

I have to say you ask the deepest questions...you would make a great philosopher if you aren't one already. However, we are living in a particular world, so there's no need to think "if God wanted to, good can be evil" because that is ultimately what you are saying. And this doesn't really matter because the fact of the matter is, good is good and evil is evil. God's Plan is complete and perfect, there are absolutely no flaws in it.

 

 

Oh but it is fair. God doesn't forcibly seal a heart by random. In fact it is people who want Allah to seal their hearts. They will openly challenge Him, "I don't believe in you and never will, I don't want to be guided, etc. etc." these people don't deserve to be guided, they do not believe in Allah, nor are they open to.

What do you want to do with your life? Maybe this will help clear this question.

 

P.S. Even after all this, I don't know if you believe in God. I mean, you talk about Him a lot, but I don't know if you're just patronizing me or do you really believe in Him?

Thanks , some of my friend call me a fool-osopher :D ( minor in psychology and philosophy)

But U are good :D and I'm not saying that to be polite but bcaz u

always seem to infer the correct message.

God is Good, God is merciful etc, is a premise that's taken by believers.

According to this it's not logically possible for God to be something else but good or merciful etc. Thus even if he does evil, Evil becomes good.

A firm believer would rather jump from a cliff then even Consider the Fact that God may not be as projected.

I am saying that since I've been on both sides of the fence.( I know, llogical? a believer?, u don't say :D ). When some one told me anything that deviated from the Schema of God, My line of thought would be..." allright buddy, here is why u are wrong", instead of "let me see if you are right".

According to the projected image of God,( if u r familiar with epicurean paradox) It's not logically possible for a good God to exist. Thus if he still does, he i snot good , or worthy of my prayer. That's where I stand thus far.

Sorry if I'm driving u up the wall but I have no intention to patronize.

With that said, I am open to the possibility that I am dead wrong , Because it already happened once.

However I must clear every ounce of doubts and can't rely on anything but strong Logic.

Just like i am sure that 2+2=4....not an ounce of doubt.

In Quran, God says that he will guide whom he chooses to and abandon whom he chooses to. He is the master of his own free will.

If praying and trying to obey God makes people exempt from his "misguidance" then why are so many practicing muslims misquided while insisting that they are not?

We can blame them, but I personally know people who pray 5 times and try to do what's right according to Islam, yet terribly fail at other things and wordly matters due to lack of intelligence. God is obviously playing favorites then for no rhyme or reason.

 

About my life , U're not a career advisor are U? :D

Just kidding, U mean my goals? or u wanna know if I'm suicidal or something?

Are u planning to send me anonymous hate mail . :D

Hey, I'm not a weirdo :D

 

Peace :D

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I must have a very intense case of sleep writing/typing because I really have no recollection of starting this thread :D

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Peace llogical,

 

I must have a very intense case of sleep writing/typing because I really have no recollection of starting this thread :D

You're not getting amnesia, lol, I've split this topic from the original, "If Islam Suddenly Disapeared..." because I realized how irrelevant it was over there!

 

Anyway, I'm glad you still check this, which means I still have time to respond. By the way I just wrote, like, a novel for this, and then lost it, (I hate AOL!!) and I have to type this all over, and I will, since, "Allah loves that when anyone of us does a job he should perfect it."

 

So you better read every single word!

 

Alright, let me take this one point at a time.

 

That's why I think God set us up. If he didn't give us desires, we would have 0 chance to do bad. I know he gave us free will and the strength to over come those desires but that's takng chances.

"Taking chances"...hmm, that's one way to look at it. On the other hand, you can view this in the way it is meant to be viewed, i.e., God gave us the ability to do good, and at the same time, the ability to do evil, and, most importantly, the ability to choose.

 

It's like throwing me inside a lion's cage with a sword.

It's not like throwing you in a cage with a lion at all! The lion is much stronger than you, and you wouldn't be able to take him on.

 

The sword can guarantee my survival fo rup to 99%

That is, if you're superpowered. (Or if the lion is really a cub.) :D

 

but the left over 1 % could haven been eliminated.

Actually I'd think in reality, we deal with a 50-50 "chance," because we choose what we want, correct me if I'm wrong.

 

According to my definition of perfection, It is a state that can't be further improved.

.0001 % wrath can be improved to 0% wrath. That's an improvement.

Your definition of perfection is correct, but you have used it in the wrong way. God is Perfect because He has the Power to show His wrath whenever He pleases. He also has the Power to withdraw His wrath, and always be pleased with mankind. However, this goes against the magnificent system of Justice which He created. Now you may be thinking, "well, in that case, that's a contradiction" but let me show you why it is not.

 

God, with His Might, chose to create an incredible system in which He may show His wrath only to those who deserve it, and show His Mercy to those who deserve that. He can just as easily show mercy to everyone, but then that wouldn't be fair, would it? And God does know more than we do, and He has not created this world in mere idle sport. And we believe that, so we look at the system as justified, especially because of how perfect and harmonious it is.

 

I agree that justice and wrath has a trade off, that's exacty why the concept of a perfectly just/merciful God is paradoxical.

I don't see how it is paradoxical at all. God is perfectly Just. He is perfectly Merciful. And He also shows His wrath whenever He pleases. He is perfect, He chose to do this, and with His power, by all means, He can.

 

It's like, when you are given an exam in college or school. Sometimes, the teacher would say to me, "you gave yourself that low grade" and I'm like "huh? But you're the one who gave it to me." However, in all respects, she was absolutely correct. I gave myself the grade because I was the one who slacked off, and I deserved that grade. The teacher could just have easily given me a good grade that I didn't deserve. She could have, but she didn't simply because that wouldn't be fair to the students who did work hard.

 

Now let's imagine the other side. I struggled a lot to get a good grade, and it pays off in the end. Now a fair teacher would give me the good grade that I deserve. And a kind teacher would give me an excellent grade, one that's even better than what I should have got.

 

Allah is so Merciful that He gives great reward to those who just tried, and didn't do as much as they could have. Now to further describe His Mercy, He would also forgive the one who slacked off, if that person sincerely asked for forgiveness.

 

You just can't tell me that Wrath makes God imperfect. He is perfect, and so is His system, which, with His Power, He created in its entirety.

 

I mean what would be an example of such a soul? I would say that sinners are overburdened souls, people who commit suicide are over burdened souls, I am an over burdened soul . Ofcource there is no way to prove my claim or yours.

Well, you can handle everything you're going through, can you not? Also, I have no sympathy for those who commit suicide. They aren't overburdened, they are just burdened with what they can bear. Instead of facing their problems, they become cowards looking for a quick escape.

 

In other words, we can do things like eating the apple or orange, because his want is nuetral.

Well, that is the simplest of examples, lol, but I guess it's somewhat valid here...

 

We can also do things that he wants us to do, but can we Not do the things that he wants us to do? Probably not. That's what I meant by illusory freewill or illusary omnipotence, because free will and omnipotenec can't co exist.

God forbid you get hit by a car. This event, which happened to you, was the Will of God. You couldn't have possibly chosen if you wanted to get hit by a car, and at what time, etc. because you don't hold knowledge of the future. So that is God's will carried out.

 

About your free will.

 

You can choose, for example, who to marry, what job to have, what to do with your life, and what religion to be in, your beliefs in general, etc.

 

There's God's will, and yours. So can they coexist or not?

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lack of knowledge, lack of strength (to control the desires), lack of judgement, lack of sanity, lack of self control etc.

God gave humans every single one of those, but limited them.

 

Lack of knowledge? God gave you the means to increase it.

Lack of strength? God gave you enough.

Lack of judgement? Only if you're stubborn.

Lack of sanity? No...

Lack of self control? A skill to be learned, and God gave you the means to do so.

 

You have every resource to do what God commanded you.

 

It's not logical for some one sane to voluntarily Do bad if he is not lacking something.

Then let him obtain what he is lacking. What is his excuse?

 

Why should we struggle just to please God who claims to be Good/merciful while watching us suffer? It's like being in an abusive relationship where no matter what we do, it's our fault. Being a Human is an endless guilt trip.

Ok, you seriously need to look at things under a different light. I think, even though you "agree with the good things" and are just "putting them aside" for now, you are being way too negative about this whole issue. The other side, the good side, is relevant, so don't put it aside. It all contributes and makes up a huge system created by the Almighty. I think if you ever truly experience Islam you'd understand what I mean. Sorry for not answering every single question individually, but these posts are already long!

 

Then again, you said:

I've been on both sides of the fence
So I just know that when you were born into a Muslim family, you didn't truly understand Islam in a way that made you follow it correctly. (By the way this is totally irrelevant but I'm just curious...where are you from?)

 

If praying and trying to obey God makes people exempt from his "misguidance" then why are so many practicing muslims misquided while insisting that they are not?

You mean in worldly matters? The "guidance" which you are talking about, refers to belief.

 

About my life , U're not a career advisor are U?

Just kidding, U mean my goals? or u wanna know if I'm suicidal or something?

Are u planning to send me anonymous hate mail .

Hey, I'm not a weirdo

No, lol, I meant, since you weren't exactly fond of the idea that your life would be dedicated to worship, I thought, well, what do you want to do with your life that you couldn't do under submission to God (i.e. Islam)?

 

Anyway, I really hope your doubts are all cleared. I hope I am not going in circles in my posts. I really don't want to be repetative. But it's like, when you care about the wellbeing of someone, so you tell him what to do, but he just refuses to listen to you.

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Peace llogical,

You're not getting amnesia, lol, I've split this topic from the original, "If Islam Suddenly Disapeared..." because I realized how irrelevant it was over there!

 

True.

 

 

Anyway, I'm glad you still check this, which means I still have time to respond. By the way I just wrote, like, a novel for this, and then lost it, (I hate AOL!!) and I have to type this all over, and I will, since, "Allah loves that when anyone of us does a job he should perfect it."

 

So you better read every single word!

 

 

lol..I will. So your post got deleted..maybe it was a sign.. :D just kidding, I hate when that happens.

 

 

Alright, let me take this one point at a time.

"Taking chances"...hmm, that's one way to look at it. On the other hand, you can view this in the way it is meant to be viewed, i.e., God gave us the ability to do good, and at the same time, the ability to do evil, and, most importantly, the ability to choose.

 

Yes but about "free will", my problem is that this ability to choose is only a mirage.

Submit or Suffer.... is not a choice but more like a threat/warning.

Like I said b4 ( i think) if u have a choice to pick blue and get $100 or pick red and die, you would probably pick blue. Technically u can still pick red but do u really have a choice given the consequences?

Bcaz again, people act to avoid pain and suffering and or acquire pleasure and happiness. Not sure why but that seems to be the design of most humans.

 

I know..we have limited freewill. But that limit to me simply means we can't cook the moon. (I know weird :D) but the point is that the limitation only applies to physical impossibility. Caz if not then we might as well open a new can of worms ( predestination, fatalism) just to reach a mutual understanding first.

 

It's not like throwing you in a cage with a lion at all! The lion is much stronger than you, and you wouldn't be able to take him on.That is, if you're superpowered. (Or if the lion is really a cub.)

Why must u mock my bravery :D .

Actually I've heard of real cases where a man single handedly killed a lion with a knife. :D

 

Actually I'd think in reality, we deal with a 50-50 "chance," because we choose what we want, correct me if I'm wrong.

Your definition of perfection is correct, but you have used it in the wrong way. God is Perfect because He has the Power to show His wrath whenever He pleases. He also has the Power to withdraw His wrath, and always be pleased with mankind. However, this goes against the magnificent system of Justice which He created. Now you may be thinking, "well, in that case, that's a contradiction" but let me show you why it is not.

 

Statistically speaking it would be almost impossible to calculate...But I wasn't talking about the Probability of us choosing right vs wrong. What I was saying was...to be perfectly merciful, God can't be 1% unmerciful bcaz otherwise he is not perfectly merciful. Regardless of reasoning. Reasoning has 0 significance bcaz God can manipulate everything. If being Just requires one to show wrath then that right there is another reason why Omnipotence/mercy and evil create a paradox.

100% merciful god wouldn't harm a single atom, if the need for justice calls for such, then he can either be just or merciful but not both.

 

I don't see how it is paradoxical at all. God is perfectly Just. He is perfectly Merciful. And He also shows His wrath whenever He pleases. He is perfect, He chose to do this, and with His power, by all means, He can.

 

ok..If you are perfectly good, would you do bad to some one who deserves it?

A yes would be justified buu standards of fairness but not by stanndard of Mercy.

Because u can choose to let it go and that is mercy.

Thus Justice and mercy are often not compatible. You may say ..that makes no sense but that's the whole point, it makes no sense bcaz it's outside the scope of logic.

It's like, when you are given an exam in college or school. Sometimes, the teacher would say to me, "you gave yourself that low grade" and I'm like "huh? But you're the one who gave it to me." However, in all respects, she was absolutely correct. I gave myself the grade because I was the one who slacked off, and I deserved that grade. The teacher could just have easily given me a good grade that I didn't deserve. She could have, but she didn't simply because that wouldn't be fair to the students who did work hard.

Now let's imagine the other side. I struggled a lot to get a good grade, and it pays off in the end. Now a fair teacher would give me the good grade that I deserve. And a kind teacher would give me an excellent grade, one that's even better than what I should have got.

 

Good analogy and to split hair i can argue that the teacher can't force knowledge into our heads where God can.

But avoiding that path, I can say that the teacher is fair....... but the teacher is not perfectly merciful, because as absurd as it may sound , otherwise she would have passed everyone with an A+.

 

 

You just can't tell me that Wrath makes God imperfect. He is perfect, and so is His system, which, with His Power, He created in its entirety.

Well, you can handle everything you're going through, can you not? Also, I have no sympathy for those who commit suicide. They aren't overburdened, they are just burdened with what they can bear. Instead of facing their problems, they become cowards looking for a quick escape.

 

Let me ask u this, what is an example of being overburdened?

I think there is none... bcaz whether people cry, complain, breathe or die, it's still their fault somehow. If there is no way to prove that people can be over burdened then no matter what I say my argument will be self refuting. To me overburden is when people become clinically depressed, commit suicide or just go nuts.

One of my good friends back in HS was suicidal,(not because of typical teenage issues like girls/drugs but he had real family issues) and being the last person to see him Alive b4 he went missing, I can empathize. He maybe a coward but if so then only bcaz God abandoned him when he needed him the most.

Let me reiterate the point that I was initially arguing.

It's not logically possible for an entity to be perfectly strong and perfectly merciful due to the presence of evil.

There maybe perfect explaination to why evil exists but that explaination exists outside the argumnet that God is perfectly merciful since otherwise it would be a big contradiction. It would be like saying "it's raining everywhere yet everything is dry.

 

 

I thought, well, what do you want to do with your life that you couldn't do under submission to God (i.e. Islam)?

Good question.... as a muslim, I couldn do pretty much anything....except for anything that's fun. :D. But honestly, it wasn't about fun. I would give up all pleasures as long as truth is at stakes and as it turned out this wasn't the case for me.

Anyway, I really hope your doubts are all cleared. I hope I am not going in circles in my posts. I really don't want to be repetitive.

As much as I appreciate your responses, I have to be honest and muster up the courage to say that we are going in circles. :D

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But it's like, when you care about the wellbeing of someone, so you tell him what to do, but he just refuses to listen to you.

 

 

U mean I? :D , U really did have my well being in mind :D ..aww thanx..wait! ..does that mean I have to undo the evil spirits I casted after u :D aa bummer :D

So I just know that when you were born into a Muslim family, you didn't truly understand Islam in a way that made you follow it correctly. (By the way this is totally irrelevant but I'm just curious...where are you from?)

I would say that I did truely understand Islam, but again I can't blame u if u don't believe me.

And I'm from Iceland.....

Just kidding, I'm from nYC borned in Pakistan.

Hobbies include driving Cab, pumping gas at Mobil, and

eating halal hot dogs at the local 7-11.

Tank You cummagain :D :D

(sorry, I can'tt help getting carried away sometimes)

peace

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I just realized how popular you are on the allegations threads, and only now do I see how many times you've heard the same thing, yet you chose to take the time to respond to almost everything I said. :D

 

You said I was going in circles, and maybe that's true :D so I guess there's no use in trying (now I feel that I've wasted all this time, please give me the peace of mind and tell me you got something out of it.).

 

But, since you're open-minded enough to change your mind if you find that you are wrong, insha'Allah, God willing, (oh wow this relates to our little discussion :D) I will think and research more about every question you want answered. If I can't find a way with which to shed some light on all these issues, I will try to find a scholar who will.

 

See, a scholar just for you! :D If my words aren't getting through, maybe someone more knowledgable will do a better job.

 

In any case, it's not over pal. :D

 

By the way, how in the world did I know you were from Pakistan before you told me? :D

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