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Pete

My Debate With Craig Winn

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Bold = me

 

Italics = Craig Winn

 

==============================

=========

 

You used the 5 of the most popular english translations so of the Quran to

get your version, is that correct? So it would be easy to understand?

Well in that case I have one question about your interpretation of 2:191.

 

Ahmed Ali: And fight those (who fight you) wheresoever you find them, and

 

expel them from the place they had turned you out from. Oppression is worse

 

than killing. Do not fight them by the Holy Masjid unless they fight you

 

there. If they do, then slay them: Such is the requital for unbelievers.

 

 

 

Khan: Once they start the fighting, kill them wherever you meet them, and

 

drive them out from where they have driven you out; for aggression is more

 

heinous than killing.

 

 

 

Pickthall: And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the

 

places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter.

 

And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first

 

attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is

 

the reward of disbelievers.

 

 

 

Yusuf Ali: And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from

 

where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than

 

slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Masjid, unless they (first)

 

fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of

 

those who suppress faith.

 

 

 

Shakir: And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from

 

whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not

 

fight with them at the Sacred Masjid until they fight with you in it, but

 

if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the

 

unbelievers

 

 

 

Prophet of Doom: And kill them wherever you find and catch them, and drive

 

them out from where they have turned you out; for Al-Fitnah (polytheism,

 

disbelief, oppression) is worse than slaughter.

 

 

 

Out of all those translations, why is it that yours is the only one that

 

says "polytheism" or "disbelief" is yours when you apparently got your Quran

 

from those other sources? The others say "aggression" "oppression" "persecution." They say

 

nothing about polytheism or

 

disbelief being worse than killing, so why does yours? I would like a response back please.==============================

=================

 

Peter,

 

 

 

That is not entirely correct, but it is close. I said in the introduction

 

To the book that I used 10 to 12 translations of the Qur'an. Two are very old

 

but not comprehensive, those being the Qur'an verses quoted in Hadith

 

collected by Ishaq in the Sira and by Tabari in the Ta'rikh. Further, the 5

 

English translations that I relied upon the most heavily aren't necessarily

 

the "most popular;" they instead represent the 5 most trusted translations

 

of the Qur'an prepared by Muslims. That was a more important criterion. Of

 

them, Ahmed Ali is the most contemporary and the Noble Qur'an is the most

 

literal.

 

 

 

With regard to your primary question, my translation of Qur'an 2:191

 

includes "polytheism and disbelief" because that is what the Nobel Qur'an

 

says.

 

 

 

So that you can verify this for yourself, I am using the Noble Qur'an in

 

The English Language by Dr. Muhammad Taqi-ud-Din Al-Hilali, Professor of

 

IslamicFaith and Teachings at the Islamic University of Al-Madinah and Dr.

 

Muhammad Muhsin Khan, Director of the Islamic University of Al-Madinah. The

 

translation was published by the King Fahd Complex for the Printing of the

 

Holy Qur'an, Madinah, Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. The date of the printing

 

isn't included or I'd share it with you, but it is the Qur'an found in most

 

Masjids. And most importantly, it is the printed version so it comes

 

complete with footnotes and Bukhari Hadith. The Noble Qur'an on the site

 

set in parallel with the other four doesn't have the footnotes or Hadith

 

becauseit would destroy the parallel comparison.

 

 

 

If you have access to a printed version open it to page 40. There you will

 

find: "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where

 

they have turned you out. And Al-Fatnah[1]is worse than killing.." The "[1]" is obviously there

 

to provide a

 

translation of the Arabic word. >And as such, the footnote is found directly underneath

 

the verse. It reads: >"[1](V.2:191)

 

Al-Fitnah: polytheism, to disbelieve after one has believed in Allah, or a trial or a

 

calamity or an affliction."

 

 

 

While I try to be careful, I make mistakes like everyone else. However, you

 

didn't find one. Nor has anyone else with regard to the Prophet of Doom

 

translation of the Qur'an.

 

 

 

That said, my guess is that you wrote this email over a very minor, almost

 

nitpicky point in the overall scheme of things, in order to ascertain

 

whether my research could be trusted. And for that I applaud you especially

 

since you went to the trouble to look up the five primary translations and

 

compare them. I'm impressed.

 

 

 

If you find an error of substance in Prophet of Doom as you read further,

 

please pass it on to me and I'll make a correction. The fact that no one

 

has found one thus far doesn't mean that one doesn't exist. I don't much care

 

for Allah, Muhammad, Islam, or the Qur'an so I was content to do the job

 

and move on.

 

 

 

Craig

 

==============================

=================

 

Craig,

 

 

 

The Koran which I have a published copy of also comes from the King Fahd

 

Holy Quran Printing complex. It is the version that was compiled by the

 

Presidency of Islamic Researches. But even in this version it reads:

 

 

 

"And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they

 

turned you out; for persecution is worse than slaughter; but fight them not

 

at the Sacred Masjid unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight

 

you, slay them. Such is the reward for those who reject faith."

 

 

 

There is a footnote on this as well, it reads as follows:

 

 

 

"This passage illustrated by the events that happened at Hudaibiya in the

 

sixth year of the Hijra, though it is not clear that it was revealed on that

 

occasion. The Muslims were by this time a strong, influential community.

 

Many of them were exiles... etc."

 

 

 

The point is it says nothing of polytheism or disbelief. I do not have a

 

copy of the Koran you mentioned you got it from, but don't you think that

 

considering that the 5 most trusted, as you have said, translations do not

 

mention disbelief or polytheism in that context, that it was a form of very

 

selective choosing on your part? This is essentially true in the case of

 

your commentary:

 

 

 

"Slaying them “wherever you find and catch them†is clearly offensive, not

 

defensive. So the prior verse has already been abrogated. And there is no

 

moderation when one says that a belief, or even verbal abuse, is worse than

 

slaughter."

 

 

 

The thing is, this only makes sense with your translation. This claim would

 

fall through if the meaning were "aggression is worse than killing" or

 

"oppression is worse than killing," as many other translations suggests the

 

meaning to be.

 

 

 

The reason I am debating this verse is because someone posted it to me on a

 

forum. I checked the other versions of the Quran and they all said

 

oppression or aggression, not polytheism, so I asked which translation she got

 

it from. She said she got it from your translation, and understandably I

 

got skeptical that the worst and most malicious version would come from

 

someone who's goal in life is to discredit Islam.

==============================

========

 

 

Peter Wolfe,

 

 

 

 

The POD translation is a blend of the five translations I used and it is word for word identical to the Noble Qur'an

 

translation, which is the most literal, with the addition of the "catch them" from YA, "drive" from S, and "oppression"

 

from YA and/or AA and “slaughter†from P and/or YA and/or S. Thus, it perfectly conforms to my disclosed procedures of

 

creating a blended version based on the Nobel, Amed Ali, Pickthall, Yousuf Ali, and Shakir translations. So the problem you

 

seem to be having is your own, not mine.

 

 

 

 

 

I accurately conveyed the verse: “And kill them wherever you find and catch them, and drive them out from where they have

 

turned you out; for Al-Fitnah (polytheism, disbelief, oppression) is worse than slaughter.â€

 

 

 

While you seem to like averages and prefer other translations, a little research might be worth while. The Concise

 

Encyclopedia of Islam defines fitnah as: rebellion and strife, any sedition or rebellion against the rightful ruler is

 

fitnah.â€

 

 

 

 

In the context of the Qur’an, “aggression†and “persecution,†which I left out, would both be poor choices using this

 

definition or using the known context of the relationships that existed between Muhammad and the Meccans at the time of the

 

second surah. The Meccans were never the “aggressors†when it came to their dealings with Muhammad and the first Muslims.

 

They were prey.

 

 

 

 

While today’s imams like to recreate history and say that Muhammad was “persecuted†in Mecca, there is absolutely no

 

evidence of it in the earliest Islamic sources. The Meccans teased Muhammad and called him a fraud, but nothing more. I

 

covered this in the “Satanic Bargain†chapter of Prophet of Doom. Therefore, “persecution†would be errant in this context.

 

 

 

 

 

“Rebellion†against Allah and Islam would be synonymous with “polytheism and disbelief†from an Islamic, Qur’anic, and

 

contextual perspective which is why the Noble Qur’an defines fitnah as such. This theme lies at the heart of the first 90

 

surahs revealed chronologically. Moreover, “strife and sedition†can lead to “oppression.†This remains a potential meaning

 

for fitnah in this context because Muhammad/Allah was speaking about the “polytheism and disbelief†of the Meccans which led

 

to the Muslims being “oppressed,†at least from Muhammad’s perspective. It was his stated justification for attacking his

 

home town along with their polytheism and disbelief.†His real reason was ego and money.

 

 

 

 

 

My process wasn’t to use averages, but instead to create the most accurate meaning possible within the context laid out by

 

the Sira and Ta’rikh and within the textual confines of the five translations I prioritized. My translation of fitnah is

 

thus in complete harmony with the formula I announced in the Prologue.

 

 

 

So that the choices are known, here is what the five translations I used the most often say:

 

 

 

Noble Qur'an: “And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out.

 

And Al-Fitnah[1]is worse than killing….â€

 

“[1](V.2:191) Al-Fitnah: polytheism, to disbelieve after one has believed in Allah, or a trial or a calamity or an

 

affliction.â€

 

 

 

Ahmed Ali: And fight those (who fight you) wheresoever you find them, and

 

expel them from the place they had turned you out from. Oppression is worse

 

than killing. Do not fight them by the Holy Masjid unless they fight you

 

there. If they do, then slay them: Such is the requital for unbelievers.

 

 

 

Pickthall: And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the

 

places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter.

 

And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first

 

attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the

 

reward of disbelievers.

 

 

 

Yusuf Ali: And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from

 

where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than

 

slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Masjid, unless they (first)

 

fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of

 

those who suppress faith.

 

 

 

Shakir: And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence

 

they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not

 

fight with them at the Sacred Masjid until they fight with you in it, but if

 

they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

 

 

 

I didn’t use the online version of Khan our your printed version but here it is anyway. Khan: Once they start the

 

fighting, kill them wherever you meet them, and

 

drive them out from where they have driven you out; for aggression is more

 

heinous than killing.

 

 

 

 

 

Your concluding comment is incorrect since “polytheism and disbelief†are the first words listed in the Nobel Qur’an.

 

They are also the best choices in context. And they eliminate the use of words that fit neither the context nor the Islamic

 

definition of fitnah—aggression and persecution. And I haven’t a clue as to why you see “polytheism, disbelief, and

 

oppression†as “the worst and most malicious version†compared to “persecution and aggression.â€

 

 

 

Therefore, I don’t appreciate your snippy “selective choosing†comment based upon the evidence at our disposal. In the

 

context of bringing the research contained in Prophet of Doom to light, and risking my life to do it, it makes you look

 

very bad.

 

 

 

Also, contrary to your conclusion, in the context of what was happening to prompt this verse, all of my comments regarding

 

it are accurate. Once again, the problem isn’t with Prophet of Doom’s accuracy but instead with your attitude.

 

 

 

Lastly, “my goal in life isn’t to discredit Islam.†I invested 10,000 hours in this project in an attempt to save Muslims

 

from Islam and to save non-Muslims from the terror it inspires. If you want to know my “goal in life†you can read

 

Ibn Hisham

==============================

====

Relax, by worst and most malicious, I meant that it made the Muslims seem the worst and most malicious.

 

I was not accusing you of being malicious.

 

 

Another thing I call to question is that you say Muhammad was only teased. In Ibn Hisham it says that Abu Lahab

 

himself took initiative to fling rocks at Muhammad, forcing Muhammads sons to get divorced, gloating over his sons death

 

(I guess you could call that teasing, but it isn't your run of the mill playground teasing)

 

, it is also in Ibn Hisham 1/335 that Umm Jameel bint Harb, the sister of Abu Sufyan, used

 

to tie bundles of thorns with ropes twisted palm-leaf fiber and throw them in his path.

 

She is referred to in the Koran as "the carrier of firewood". When she heard this she

 

proceeded to the Masjid to hurl stones at him. Also there is the fact that there was an

 

assassination attempt made against him, that can't be left out.

 

But I admit that most of the tortures were not on Muhammad, being that he was protected

by his tribe and Uncle Abu Talib.

 

Most of the tortures were against other Muslims. Uthman was wrapped in a mat of palm

leaves, and a fire was set under

 

him. He was also starved and then expelled. His skin got wizened, and he assumed a

horrible physical appearance.

 

Bilal, the slave of Omaiyah bin Khalaf, was severely beaten for his conversion is Islam.

Sometimes a rope was put around

 

his neck and street boys were made to drag him through the streets and even across the

 

hillocks of Mecca. At times he was

 

subjected to prolonged deprivation of food and drink. At others, he was made to lie down

 

on the burning sand and under the

 

crushing burden of heavy stones. Similar other measures were resorted to force him to

 

recant. Another victim of the

 

highhandedness of the Quraysh was Ammar bin Yasir, a freed slave of Bani Makhzoum. He,

 

along with his mother and father,

 

embraced Islam in its early phase. There were repeatedly made to lie on the burning

 

sand of Arabia and were beaten

 

several. Ammar was at times tossed up on embers. Another victim was Abu Fakeeh.

 

The oppressors used to fasten his

 

feet with a rope and drag him in the streets of Mecca. Khabbab bin Al-Aratt was also an

 

easy victim to similar outrages

 

on every possible occasion. He experienced exemplary torture and maltreatment. The

 

Meccan polytheists used to pull his

 

hair and twist his neck and make him lie on burning coals with a big rock on his chest to

 

prevent him from escaping.

 

Even the women converts were not spared, and the list is too long to include all of them. Zanirah, An-Nahdiyah and her

 

daughter, Umm Ubais and many other had their full share of oppression.

 

 

 

This is all in Ibn Hisham 1/320 and Rahmat-ul-lil' alameen, 1/57.

 

 

 

I do not really understand what you are getting at. You do agree that neither the

 

Ahmed Ali, Khan, Pickthall, Yusuf Ali,

 

and Shakir versions do not say "polytheism" in them, don't you? And even the definition

 

you gave of "Fitnah"

 

 

is not polytheism. So by this conclusion do you assume that the Ahmed Ali, Khan,

 

Pickthall, Yusuf Ali, and Shakir

 

versions are flawed? As I understand it, you got "polytheism" from another version,

 

which was printed by the King

 

Fahd Holy Quran Printing Complex. But the version I have by them says nothing about

 

polytheism. In fact, that only

 

version that I have yet found that says polytheism is worse than killing is yours, and

 

that makes Islam look genocidal,

 

when that verse was not talking about actively killing all polytheists.

 

 

 

Thank you for your responses so far, I really am impressed that you took the time to answer

 

my questions.

 

 

 

 

 

-Peter-==============================

=============

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PropellerAds

Greetings of Peace

 

His (Muhammad's) real reason was ego and money.

-Craig Winn

 

The laughable statement above belongs in the Just For Fun section of the forum, no? :D

 

It is like stating Mahatma Gandhi desired fame and wealth, despite the ascetic's evident detachment from this world. Craig Winn has failed to conceal his lack of knowledge on the life of God's final Apostle (upon him be peace).

 

Let not their wealth nor their (following in) sons dazzle thee (O Prophet): in reality God's plan is to punish them with these things in this life, and that their souls may perish in their (very) denial of God. At-Tawbah: 55)

 

Regards,

 

Joseph

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With the name of Allah (swt) -The Bestower Of Unlimited Mercy, The Continously Merciful

 

Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of Allah be upon you)

 

&&&

 

 

thanks bro Pete for ur debate with that liar . May Allah bless u.

 

U wrote : ...forcing Muhammads sons to get divorced,

-----Is this a typo error ? Did u mean son-in- law ?

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