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vdtwo

Criticism Of Atheism And,

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:D

 

Some questions for the non believers of this forum and some thoughts, I dare you to read it with me...

 

The representative of the people of misguidance : "I consider happiness in this world and life's pleasures, and the progress of civilization and perfection of arts as all lying in refusal to think of the hereafter and to know God, in love of this world, in absolute freedom and licence and in relying exclusively on myself. And in so doing I have drawn most men onto this path, through the assistance of Satan, and continue to do so."

 

The Answer: We say, in the name of the Qur'an: O wretched man! Come to your senses! Do not listen to the representative of the people of misguidance. If you do listen to him, your loss will be so great that your intelligence, spirit, and heart will shudder even to imagine it. There are two paths in front of you.

 

The First: The path of wretchedness laid out in front of you by the representative of the people of misguidance.

 

The Second: The path of happiness defined for you by the All-Wise Qur'an.

 

So, note and understand now one of those thousands of comparisons which is suitable to this discussion.

 

The path of assigning partners to God, misguidance, dissipation and vice causes man to fall to the lowest degree. Afflicted with infinite pains, he is forced to bear an infinitely heavy load on his weak and powerless shoulders. For if man does not recognize God and place his trust in Him, he becomes extremely weak and impotent, needy and impoverished, a suffering, grieving and ephemeral animal, exposed to endless misfortunes. Suffering continuously the pain of separation from all the objects of love and attachment, he will ultimately abandon all of his loved ones and go alone to the darkness of the grave.

 

Throughout his life, he struggles vainly, with an extremely limited will, slight power, a short lifespan and dull mind, against infinite pains and hopes. To no avail, he strives to attain innumerable desires and goals.

 

Even though he is unable to bear the burden of his own being, he takes the load of the vast world onto his wretched shoulders and mind. He suffers the torment of Hell before even arriving there.

 

Indeed, in order to avoid feeling this grievous pain, this awesome spiritual torment, the people of misguidance have recourse to a drunkenness that is like a form of stupor and thus are temporarily able to avoid feeling their pain. But when they do feel it, they suddenly feel the proximity of the grave. For whoever is not a true bondsman of God Almighty will imagine that he owns himself. But with his partial and limited will and his petty power and strength, he is unable to administer and control his being in this tempestuous world. He sees thousands of different sorts of enemy attacking his life, from harmful microbes to earthquakes. In an awesome state of painful fear he looks towards the door of the grave, that at all times appears dreadful to him.

 

While in this state, man will also be troubled by the state of the world and of mankind, for as a human being he is attached to both. But, he does not imagine them to be in the control of One All-Wise, All-Knowing, All-Powerful, Merciful and Generous, and has attributed them instead to chance and to Nature. And so, together with his own pains, he suffers also the pains of the world and of mankind. Earthquakes, plagues, storms, famine and scarcity, separation and decease; all of this torments him in the most painful and sombre fashion.

 

But such a man is not worthy of pity and sympathy, for he himself is responsible for it.

 

There is a comparison between two brothers who entered a well. One was not content with a refreshing, sweet, reputable, pleasant and licit drink at a splendid feast with pleasant friends in a beautiful garden and so drank some ugly and unclean wine in order to obtain illicit and impure pleasure. He became drunk and then imagined himself to be in some foul place in the middle of winter surrounded by wild beasts, and trembling cried out.

 

But such a man is not worthy of pity, for he imagined his honourable and blessed companions to be monsters, and thus insulted them. He also imagined the delicious foods and clean dishes at the feast to be impure and filthy stones and began smashing them. And the respected books and profound writings there to be meaningless and banal designs, and so ripped them up and trod on them.

 

Such a person is not merely unworthy of sympathy, rather, he deserves a good beating.

 

In exactly the same way, a person who, through incorrect choice and the lunacy of misguidance, is intoxicated with unbelief, imagines this hospice of the world, which belongs to the All-Wise Maker, to be the plaything of chance and natural forces. He fancies the passage of creatures into the World of the Unseen, that is in fact renewing the manifestation of the Divine Names, to be execution and annihilation. He supposes the echoes of those creatures' glorification of God, who are accomplishing their duties with the passing of time, to be the lamentations of death and eternal separation. He deems the pages of created beings, which are inscriptions of the Eternally Besought One, to be meaningless and confused. He imagines the door of the grave, which opens onto the world of mercy, to be the entrance to the darkness of non-existence. And he deems the appointed hour, which is in reality an invitation to join his true friends, to be the onset of separation from all of them.

 

Such a person both brings upon himself grievous and ghastly torments, and denies, denigrates and insults all beings and God's Names and His inscriptions. He is, therefore, not only unworthy of compassion and sympathy but also deserving of severe punishment. He is not in any way worthy of pity.

 

And so, Oh wretched people of misguidance and dissipation! What accomplishment of yours, what art, what perfection, what civilization, what progress, can confront this awesome silence of the grave, this crushing despair? Where can you find that true consolation that is the most urgent need of the human spirit?

 

What nature, what causality, what partner ascribed by you to God, what discovery, what nationality, what false object of worship, in each of which you place so much trust and to which you attribute God's works and His sustaining bounties, which of them can deliver you from the darkness of death that you imagine to be eternal annihilation? Which of them can enable you to cross the frontiers of the grave, the boundaries of the intermediate realm, the marches of the plain of resurrection, the Bridge of Sirat? Or can bring about your eternal happiness?

 

But know that most definitely you will travel on this path for you cannot close the door of the grave. And a traveller on such a path ought to rely on one whose control and command embraces all this vast sphere and its extensive boundaries.

 

Oh wretched people of misguidance and neglect! In accordance with the principles that 'the consequence of an illicit love is suffering a merciless torment', you are suffering a fully justified punishment, for you are unlawfully employing your innate capacity for love, knowledge, thanks and worship that relate properly to the essence, attributes and Names of God Almighty, on your own soul and the life of this world.

 

You have lavished the love that belongs to God Almighty on yourself. Your own soul has become your beloved and will cause you endless suffering: you are not giving true peace to that beloved. You are suffering constantly because you do not hand it over to the Possessor of Absolute Power Who is the only true beloved and you do not trust wholly in Him.

 

You suffer further misfortunes because you give to the world the love that belongs to God Almighty's Names and attributes and divide up the works of His art among causes in the world. One group of those innumerable beloveds of yours will turn their backs on you and leave you without even saying good-bye. Another group will not even recognize you, or if they do, they will not love you. Or if they love you, their love will be of no use. You will constantly suffer from innumerable separations and farewells without hope of return.

 

This, then, is the essence and true nature of what the people of misguidance call life's happiness, human perfection, the advantages of civilization and the pleasure of freedom. And dissipation and intoxication are but a veil; they temporarily block all feeling. So, say, "I spit on the intelligence of those who follow such a path

Edited by vdtwo

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PropellerAds
Straw Man Argument; a logical fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw-man argument" is to create a position that is easy to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent. A straw-man argument can be a successful rhetorical technique (that is, it may succeed in persuading people) but it is in fact misleading, since the argument actually presented by the opponent has not been refuted.

 

One can set up a straw man in the following ways:

 

1. Present a misrepresentation of the opponent's position, refute it, and pretend that the opponent's actual position has been refuted.

2. Present someone who defends a position poorly as the defender, refute that person's arguments, and pretend that every upholder of that position, and thus the position itself, has been defeated.

3. Invent a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs that are criticized, and pretend that the person represents a group of whom the speaker is critical.

 

You, sir, are a master of the medium.

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What is your cristicism about the article brother, what made it to you to define the article a straw man argument? Be specific and I will answer...And since your muslim I'm suprised of such post, (sorry if i misunderstood)

Edited by vdtwo

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What is your cristicism about the article brother, what made it to you to define the article a straw man argument? Be specific and I will answer...And since your muslim I'm suprised of such post, (sorry if i misunderstood)

Salams

I think the 1st definition seem to apply to your post since u generalize what an Atheist is like.

peace

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The essence of the article focuses on the main discomfitures about being Atheist. What are you claiming, about generalization of Atheism. What is written there refers to all Atheists, thus they dont believe in God. I think this is a logical generalization ha?

 

Anyway, I would like to have a satiated reply, Where can you find that true consolation that is the most urgent need of the human spirit?

 

Since you believe most definitely you will travel to that dark soil for you cannot close the door of the grave...

Edited by vdtwo

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Salamz

In other words?? :D

I read your posts a couple of times but I don't get what you are trying to say/prove collectively?

peace

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Alright logical and readers,

 

Here let me try to explain it again;

The article is about the discomfitures about being an atheist as I said, yes indeed, I m critisizing the belief (or non belief) on its lack of happiness (if I generalize it), just as I said;. For if man does not recognize God and place his trust in Him, he becomes extremely , a suffering, grieving and ephemeral animal, exposed to endless misfortunes. Suffering continuously the pain of separation from all the objects of love and attachment, he will ultimately abandon all of his loved ones and go alone to the darkness of the grave. .

Moreover you will separate your beloved ones no matter what! If atheists weren't drunk so much in there illicit world they would've recognize this. Infact I'm asking you doesn't it disturb you, the ultimate seperation from your loved ones, or the discomfort of even imagining the possibilities you might face to face in the existing world; as said He sees thousands of different sorts of enemy attacking his life, from harmful microbes to earthquakes. This is an short explaination, I mean being a non believer makes him so weak and impotent...You confront yourself with such huge misery.

 

 

peace

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The article you posted (I don't know wether you wrote or not) makes absolutely no sense. The author submits a blanket persona of athiests ( in the form of "The representative of the people of misguidance") which is completely innacurate and even foolish in its simplicity and then goes on to discredit this fabricated persona to create his thesis. Like I said; "straw man argument."

 

It is quite obvious that you have no idea how to feel tolerance for beliefs outside your own, and thus you refuse to try to properly understand these belief systems, instead creating in your mind an innacurate and even offensive version of these outside beliefs which make it easier for you to feel no compassion towards; ei "He is, therefore, not only unworthy of compassion and sympathy but also deserving of severe punishment. He is not in any way worthy of pity"

 

I have no patience for people as closed minded and bigoted as yourself.

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"He is, therefore, not only unworthy of compassion and sympathy but also deserving of severe punishment. He is not in any way worthy of pity"

 

I have no patience for people as closed minded and bigoted as yourself.

:D

 

 

That whats said in the Quran right :D ? I mean where does the non believers go to, eternal punishment without any compassion ie hell...In the article it tries to explain why these kind of believers are not worthy and deserve such suffering. Yes I dont give an respect for there choice, like Allah (cc),indeed I can show you how unworthy they are among Allah with hadeeths and ayaths also). Let me finish with this, I say as Abraham (as) says;

There is for you an excellent example (to follow) in Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people: "We are clear of you and of whatever ye worship besides Allah. we have rejected you, and there has arisen, between us and you, enmity and hatred for ever,- unless ye believe in Allah and Him alone": [60:4]

 

Me bigoted... :D what can I say?

 

Peace

 

:D

Edited by vdtwo

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"I mean being a non believer makes him so weak and impotent..."

 

lol

 

Isnt that wot muslims believe the uma (spelling?) has become.

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VDTWO

If non believers were so worthless, then why would the prophet waste his life preaching non believers? Also how would the obligation of giving Dawa be justified? Let God be the judge of who gets what in the end and if u have real knowledge then use it to help people instead of pointing finger and criticizing.

Further more Speculations such as "non believers or atheists are not happy folks or have discomfitures about their belief, makes as much sense as calling muslims terrorists, yet appearantly your entire argument is built around it. It's a baseless generalization.

Starw man argument, I think the brother hit the nail on the head :D

peace

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VDTWO

If non believers were so worthless, then why would the prophet waste his life preaching non believers? Also how would the obligation of giving Dawa be justified? Let God be the judge of who gets what in the end and if u have real knowledge then use it to help people instead of pointing finger and criticizing.

Further more Speculations such as "non believers or atheists are not happy folks or have discomfitures about their belief, makes as much sense as calling muslims terrorists, yet appearantly your entire argument is built around it. It's a baseless generalization.

Starw man argument, I think the brother hit the nail on the head :D

peace

 

I dont see any link between preaching non believers and respecting there beliefs or them being worthless. Let me express that Ouran states out clearly that human being is the most respectful, the most noble, and the most eminent creature of universe and he is thats why capable of arising above the angels by believing that there is a God Almighty, but also He is capable of tumbling down, being more worthless than a animal;

Many are the Jinns and men we have made for Hell: They have hearts wherewith they understand not, eyes wherewith they see not, and ears wherewith they hear not. They are like cattle,- nay more misguided: for they are heedless (of warning).[7:179]

Being worthless and insignificant is about this, they themselves is the most valuable creature among creatures but they also fell into such vanity position if they do not recognize God.

Again as I said the article explains the reason of eternal punishment as explained in ayats such;

When Our Clear Signs are rehearsed to them, thou wilt notice a denial on the faces of the Unbelievers! they nearly attack with violence those who rehearse Our Signs to them. Say, "Shall I tell you of something (far) worse than these Signs? It is the Fire (of Hell)! Allah has promised it to the Unbelievers! and evil is that destination! [22:72]

...announce to him a grievous Penalty. [32:7]

Let not the Unbelievers think that our respite to them is good for themselves: We grant them respite that they may grow in their iniquity: But they will have a shameful punishment. [3:178]

and more ayaths...

But the essence or the article is what Atheist or non believers are confronting, yet they are unaware of such situation, it also declares this awareness of being in a position of such absence. If it was to say that they all are suffering from the thought of death etc, like you understood and claimed, your statement would be true and I would have been asserting an wrong argument and generalizing all non beilievers which truelly doesnt suffer and think about such things, but what it explains and what you wont reliase is the unavoidable trip to dearth. And it also adds that the reason of non believers not feeling such sensation is;

Indeed, in order to avoid feeling this grievous pain, this awesome spiritual torment, the people of misguidance have recourse to a drunkenness that is like a form of stupor and thus are temporarily able to avoid feeling their pain..

Thus your or any other guys pretension about the article being a straw man argument is mistaken as your wrong comprehension towards the article.

Edited by vdtwo

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lol, you a preacher or something? I was expecting to find something interesting and instead I find ignorant rabble..

 

tip ~ citing religious passages simply wastes time, as you may attach alot of significance to them, but it's completely meaningless to anyone who doesn't believe the same things you do.

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Let me express that Ouran states out clearly that human being is the most respectful, the most noble, and the most eminent creature of universe and he is thats why capable of arising above the angels by believing that there is a God Almighty, but also He is capable of tumbling down, being more worthless than a animal;

 

Quran also clearly states that we should follow the ways of the prophet... let me ask you then what's the name of your horse? :D Then again maybe you are relying on "don't do as I do but do as I preach argument"

You maybe trying to help non believers or atheists which is good, but Like 3d said, It's useless to quote verses from scriptures bcaz not every one believe in them. Furthermore stop insisting that you know the fate of non believers /atheists and let God be the judge.Do you rather mock people that are hellbound or try to help them?

If god can forgive sins that are equivalent to grain of sand in the desert, then you better then to speculate on who's going to hell and who's worthlesss. Also, You can't bully people or threat them with "Afterlife" punishment" if they don't believe in such. The only other way to convey your message in this case is through logic and resoning that exist outside pure belief. If there is no way to do it then find one or don't bother bcaz it would be a waste of time.

peace :D

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hehe :D Brother, where ateisths go is Hell :D that clear, see I dont say it Quran says it. So dont claim that Im asserting such thoughts. If YOU insist that this up to God, I say that, yes it is but God already declared that He wont accept disbelievers beliefs. What I allegate is based on this, dont make me show you several ayaths and dozens of hadiths about this. And since were talking about the view of Atheism from an Islamic point, you cant say dont just quote ayaths...

 

In your comment were you say; since Allah forgives equivalent to grain of sand in the desert...If you knew the whole part of if the hadith you wouldnt say; dont pretense that Atheists will go Hell, they may not etc...I thought you were more informed and wise about Islam...

 

Anyway I guess this was my last comment here since I'm misunderstood invariably, let me say that the article belongs to a very famous scholar here in my country which is believed to be a sayyid (ie descend from the Prophet (asm))

 

peace

Edited by vdtwo

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hehe :D Brother, where ateisths go is Hell :D that clear, see I dont say it Quran says it.

Ok, for the argument's sake, hell it is.But if you want to help then , get a guest pass and come and get us instead of pointing and laughing :D

In your comment were you say; since Allah forgives equivalent to grain of sand in the desert...If you knew the whole part of if the hadith you wouldnt say; dont pretense that Atheists will go Hell, they may not etc...I thought you were more informed and wise about Islam...

Yeah , yeah I know..atheism is borderline shirk etc, but my point was that you shouldn't predict people's fate based on present and past..bcaz you are missing the future which only God knows and therefor only he should judge.. Like the example I gave above, A hard athesit today can revert tomorrow and Bam..open the gate of heavens for him (don't forget the guest pass :D )

Anyway I guess this was my last comment here since I'm misunderstood invariably, let me say that the article belongs to a very famous scholar here in my country which is believed to be a sayyid (ie descend from the Prophet (asm))

Descend from the prophet don't impress me and neither should it impress you since Taqwa isn't heredity based. But then again it's just my opinion. :D

Also don't stop posting on the cacount of this thread, just try to be more clear and cohesive....maybe you are too smart for us..so just try to speak in laments terms..

 

Peace

Edited by llogical

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B)

The First: The path of wretchedness laid out in front of you by the representative of the people of misguidance.

 

The Second: The path of happiness defined for you by the All-Wise Qur'an.

 

Sir, what in the WORLD are you talkng about? Do you even know any atheists personally? What is this wretchedness of which you speak? I have been atheist for all 39 of my years in a society of all kinds of religions, and I cannot say I have seen wretchedness distributed more to any particular faith than others, including non-believers.

 

 

Throughout his life, he struggles vainly, with an extremely limited will, slight power, a short lifespan and dull mind, against infinite pains and hopes. To no avail, he strives to attain innumerable desires and goals.

 

Even though he is unable to bear the burden of his own being, he takes the load of the vast world onto his wretched shoulders and mind. He suffers the torment of Hell before even arriving there.

 

Seriously, who writes this stuff? This scholar, has he ever gotten out of his homogenous hometown? The above words do not represent reality in any fashion I have ever experienced. To hear such ignorant assertions about a class of people is an insult to intelligence; to hear such things said about your OWN group of people is an insult period. :D If we are to have peace on this earth, ALL humans will have to learn respect for differing cultures. It is human nature to feel that your own group is "better" than the rest; within limits it can be good and motivating. Taken to extreme, and with little real-world checking, it results in the ugly side of religion or nationalism or even football attendance- one side becomes so convinced of its righteousness and the "other side's wrongness" that malaise starts to form, which turns to hatred and indifference, which proceeds to break peaceful co-existence apart in favor of violence, strife, and war. To me, it sounds like hell on earth, of our own making. THIS is the culmination of following a path of rightreousness?????

 

I beg of you, try to open your mind a little. B)

 

Peace,

-Neo

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If we are to have peace on this earth, ALL humans will have to learn respect for differing cultures. It is human nature to feel that your own group is "better" than the rest; within limits it can be good and motivating. Taken to extreme, and with little real-world checking, it results in the ugly side of religion or nationalism or even football attendance- one side becomes so convinced of its righteousness and the "other side's wrongness" that malaise starts to form, which turns to hatred and indifference, which proceeds to break peaceful co-existence apart in favor of violence, strife, and war.

 

Hear Hear!!! Well said. Very well said.

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C'mon now..it was just a dose of ethnocenterism. :D, nOthing unanticipated. :D

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A great succinct way to put it, Illogical.

 

What bizarre accusation next? That Atheists go around putting burning question marks on believers' front lawns? :D

 

Still, I'm glad it was posted. It helps give insight into the mindset of certain groups, and their (stated) reasons for thinking the way they do. A similarly inaccurate mindset exists in some Americans and their view of Islam. Knowing why people think the way they do is an important step toward educating them so they can make better decisions, and thence choose leaders who support more enlightened policies. Individuals talking to individuals of other groups bypasses the agenda-driven sources of inaccurate information, be it media, religious leaders, politicians, etc. It makes me think of the efforts of peace activists in the '80s, working to defuse tensions between the USSR and USA by getting common citizens in contact with one another through "sister city" programs and such. This is one way that sites like Gawaher have the potential to be such peacemaking forces in the world! B)

 

Peace,

-Neo

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What bizarre accusation next? That Atheists go around putting burning question marks on believers' front lawns? :D

 

you just gave me an idea!....too bad people mite think I'm the riddler though....

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I said that the previous post was my las post here but I must add another

 

But such a man is not worthy of pity,...
Such a person is not merely unworthy of sympathy, rather, he deserves a good beating.
and similar sentences isnt about this world. It is an explaination of the reason of ultimate and eternal punishment hereafter. It doesnt state nor it requests Atheists to be beaten. The following sentences and mainly the essence of the article explains the real concern and the question marks of -especially- Atheists and non believers discomforts about such punishment hereafter without any pity. And it also states how big disasters confronts such non believers (you may not anticipate). It is also a tempt to such persons to really think what they'll are up to... Edited by vdtwo

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Atheists and non believers discomforts about such punishment hereafter without any pity.

 

Think long and hard about whats wrong with this sentence.

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Yeah I know your gonna say we dont believe herafter etc, but I'm not asserting that, since the article looks at your beliefs in an Islamic view, and what I tried to say that Atheists has question marks with this Islamic view, ie why does Islam claims that we deserve such punishment etc. The article mainly answers this and also it explains how many disasters waits if you dont believe in God and moreover...(As I said you may not anticipate)...

Edited by vdtwo

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Yeah I know your gonna say we dont believe herafter etc, but I'm not asserting that, since the article looks at your beliefs in an Islamic view,

 

Yes, and this is the whole problem with the article. Telling athiests about their OWN beliefs from a perspective which they don't believe in in the first place is not only completely redundant but also arrogant and counterproductive. A Christian could just as easily tell YOU how you are going to burn in eternal hell from his own religion's point of view. Not only would this not do anything to change your belief system to his side, it would also probably just get you pretty mad (as you have done to the athiests in this thread)

 

Yes, the Quran clearly states that these people will burn in hellfire. I accept that. But the Bible, Torah, etc. clearly states that YOU (and all Musilms) will burn in hellfire. What say you about that? Would you want to be preached to by a non Muslim trying to give YOU salvation from their religions point of view? You have to factor in the fact that we are all corrupted by ethnocentric beliefs when trying to get a point across to someone of another faith. Telling someone who they are based on your own belief system, not theirs, will simply alienate them, and then you will never get through to them.

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