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Pope Sorry For Offending Muslims

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:D

 

I find it upsetting that people *in the goldfish bowl of the muslim world* are not allowed to criticise Islam, or say what they want, without someone complaining. Just grow up guys, why should people apologise if they dont like Islam, their just saying what they want, our religion is our responsibility, if people criticise our history or what we're doing why should you care if you know the truth already. Just pick your battles.

 

With all due respect, the pope can say what he wants, their just words. It depends on whether i'd want to get into a discussion with people of that particular viewpoint(s).

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Notice how he said he was sorry for the reactions in some countries of his address?

Sorry for Islamic reactions, not his statements.

 

Funny. :D

Why should he apologize for his statement? He quoted an Islamic professor Khoury, who referred to some byzantine emperor. To explain the background, the Pope started by quoting the emperor, using words that strongly show that he did not approve that quotation.

 

The main theme of the speech was the question whether Gods acts logically, or whether the statement "if God wants us so, we have to commit idolatry" is true.

 

Why should he apologize for that? He apologized that the point he made was not clear enough to avoid the reaction, whats wrong about that?

 

When I read Your post I got the impression you never read the speech.

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what about the Crusades ? Christian world apolized for Crusades....for the ethnic cleaning of Muslims in the past & the present?

Yes, at least the Catholic Church apologized.

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I will never understand why muslims seem to think that just because they revere "the prophet" as the perfect example, that everyone else should have to respect this and not ridicule it.

There is a psychological explanation to that ... they are subconciously unsure wheteher it is true or not, and therefore they can't stand any hint of a doubt.

 

If they were wholly convinced their belief was true, they would persuade with words.

 

And not to forget: not every Muslim ist that kind.

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they are subconciously unsure wheteher it is true or not, and therefore they can't stand any hint of a doubt.

 

oh, how insulting, oh my god what shall we do now :D

 

Well when people take the mikey out of you lot you cant even stand up for yourselves... all you do is have a grumble and wish....

 

Now us lot, we take action (some go overboard) but simply dont insult people, watch your mouth and you'd be okay... but noooooooo mr infi has to open his mouth, excercise his right to freedom of speech so you must just accept a reaction and please stop moaning....

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Now us lot, we take action

 

:D

 

Which is precisely our problem, that we dont pick our battles, we're constantly on the defensive.

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Then you tell me who is another pope that you are asking...

Since Mako did not tell, i do:

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.wwrn(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/article.php?idd=21273&sec=46&cont=3"]A News from Egypt[/url]

Just search for "Pope" on that Page.

 

There is a German Homepage of that Person using the German word for pope ("Papst"), but I can't find an English one.

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name='shaidmahmood' date='Sep 25 2006, 01:09 PM' post='352472']

oh, how insulting, oh my god what shall we do now :D

 

Well when people take the mikey out of you lot you cant even stand up for yourselves... all you do is have a grumble and wish....

 

Now us lot, we take action (some go overboard) but simply dont insult people, watch your mouth....

 

Please do not take tolerance and the lack of violent reprisals as a sign of weakness. Just be thankfull that you live in a society that affords you such concepts, and be thankfull that "your lot" and your "action" have not as yet brought this civil outlook to a grinding halt.

 

Why is it that when "your lot" take "action" it is a justified response, yet "action" taken against "your lot" would be considered Islamophobic?

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but noooooooo mr infi has to open his mouth, excercise his right to freedom of speech so you must just accept a reaction and please stop moaning....

I'm not "Mr Infi", I do believe. I suppose You should apologize for calling a believer an infidel.

 

And I don't have to accept an unjustified reaction (You used the euphemism "going overboard").

 

And if You think that arguing with words instead of hitting and rioting is weakness - thats the Nazi way of thinking. Nothing that any believer - of what religion whatever - should think. You should repent - no, not apologize to me, that did not hurt me, but You should repent from this sin.

 

Unless you think that is no sin because there is compulsion in Islam :D

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Please do not take tolerance and the lack of violent reprisals as a sign of weakness. Just be thankfull that you live in a society that affords you such concepts, and be thankfull that "your lot" and your "action" have not as yet brought this civil outlook to a grinding halt.

 

Why is it that when "your lot" take "action" it is a justified response, yet "action" taken against "your lot" would be considered Islamophobic?

 

it is not tolerance or lack of violent reprisals at all... you know as a fact that there is plenty of violence towards muslims in the uk, most of it goes unreported.... only the other day three guys tried attacking my mate who was with his wife at the time, when he found them later on thier own they where nothing.... is that what most westerners are like? do you represent these poeple? should you apologise for them? i dont think so and vice versa.....

 

the MAJORITY of muslims did not get violent and start rioting at all, i didnt and neither did anyone i know, the only people who got violent where the ones the media was watching... strange eh....

 

i never said violence was justified, im just making it clear that there will be no sorrys from me... i didnt harm no one, neither did anyone i know so if you want appologies once again look elsewhere...

 

also regarding Islamaphobia, who said?

 

And if You think that arguing with words instead of hitting and rioting is weakness - thats the Nazi way of thinking. Nothing that any believer - of what religion whatever - should think. You should repent - no, not apologize to me, that did not hurt me, but You should repent from this sin.

 

i never said dialogue is weakness, i do apologise if i mislead you, all i say is that when you go round offending people not everyone is going to talk.... people who can talk and are good at it will, people who arent educated much and maybe a little hot tempered will hit out...

 

just like after 9/11 a muslim woman got attacked in birmingham, why? obviously the guys emotions and hatred got the better of him.... simple as :D

Edited by shaidmahmood

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With the name of Allah ( God Almighty ) -The Bestower Of Unlimited Mercy, The Continuously Merciful

 

Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of Allah be upon you)

 

Listen to the holy Quran

 

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.islamicity(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/MOSQUE/ARABICSCRIPT/AYAT/1/1_1.htm"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.islamicity(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/MOSQUE/ARABICSCRIPT/AYAT/1/1_1.htm[/url]

 

&&&

 

Ask a Vatican Official

 

Father Thomas Michel

 

 

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.islamonline(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/english/index.shtml"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.islamonline(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/english/index.shtml[/url]

 

 

 

 

 

visitor -

Profession

 

 

Question Respected Sir, There are some people who says that the statement about Islam was prsented to the Pope without his approval or knowledge, how correct is this?

 

 

 

 

Answer No, the text was made by the Pope himself. One report (by Ian Fisher of NY Times) says that some unnamed Vatican officials said that they had seen the Pope's text beforehand and had expressed some reservations about the Paleologus passage. The decision to use the reference was the Pope's.

 

 

 

 

 

Name ameena -

Profession student

Question Good day. I would like to know if the comments of the Pope were the general view of the Vatican as a whole or was it a personal view point. If so, are these addresses to the public not proofread or approved by all members of the Vatican? I don't condone the violence/repercussions thereof but I do believe that these actions could have been prevented.

 

 

 

 

I have many Christian friends who never felt ill toward my religion. However, those words have sown seeds of disrespect and hate toward my religion. How can the Pope with knowledge of the current state of the world against Islam not know what his words would cause? I would appreciate it if all my questions would be answered as truthfully as possible.

 

 

Answer Dear Ameena, I will try to answer your questions truthfully. First of all, the Pope's comments were his personal viewpoint. No doubt that there are some in the Vatican who agree with the Pope, but there are many in the Vatican who do not agree with the Pope's personal views. I used to work in the Vatican in the days of Pope John Paul II (1981-1994).

 

 

 

 

 

He always passed his speeches to those of us who knew Muslims well to proofread and make sure there was nothing offensive. On the few occasions I found phrases that I felt were offensive, I noted them and the Pope always changed them before delivering his speech. I think one of the lessons the new Pope has learned is the need to have his words checked or proofread lest something like this happen again. Yes, I believe that using an ill-informed and prejudiced author like Manuel Paleologus has sown seeds of disrespect.

 

 

 

 

I believe the Pope when he says that he never intended disrespect towards Muslims, nevertheless that is the result of such an ill-chosen example. I feel that we Christians owe Muslims an apology. The Pope was probably thinking as a scholar and did not realize that so many people would be hearing what he said. I think that in this case, the Pope should have had better advisors who could have told him that his words would break down years of trust and openness between Christians and Muslims.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Name Anon -

Profession

Question Dear sir I hope you are fine and happy. I say our rights should stop when it affect others' rights. Although humans have been given the freedom but they have to use it positivly. Talking against prophets or against religions in such a way to show them bad and saying false is really hurting others. What is your opinion? Thanks

 

 

 

 

Answer Dear Anonymous, I agree with you. The right to free speech is limited by the responsibility not to speak against prophets or against people's religions. I was not in favour of the scurrilous cartoons that appeared some months ago, and I wrote publicly against them. Thomas Michel, sj

 

Name Tamer -

Profession Engineer

Question How does the Vatican look at Islam? Do you see it as a violant relegion? How do you see Islam's image in the Western media? Is it a reflection of its values?

 

 

 

Answer The Second Vatican Council is the Church's highest teaching authority. In its document "Nostra Aetate," it says that "the Church looks on Muslims with esteem," and goes on to say why. Muslims worship God, seek to do His will by prayer, alms, and fasting. It asks that Muslims and Christians should work together to build peace, social justice, moral values, and true human freedom before God.

 

 

 

 

I wish I could say that all Christians follow this teaching. It takes a long time to overcome prejudices and stereotypes. The image of Islam in the Western media is very negative. Islam is pictured as xenophobic, prone to violence, and backward.

 

I believe that the Western media is unfairly obsessed with Islam. Part of this is that Islam is seen as being strongly opposed to secular and humanist values. I think that all religious believers, including Christians, should be grateful to Muslims for raising questions of God and faith in our secular societies.

 

 

 

Name Aysha -

Profession Student

Question Hi, I just want to ask: If the Pope didn't believe in the statement he gave or quote, then why did he use that notorious statement in his speech?

 

 

 

Answer Dear Aysha, I don't know. It was a bad idea. I guess that the Pope felt that it made his point about the need for rationality in religion. My own view is that whenever we use a negative example, we should take it from our own history rather than from someone else's. The Pope could have used the Crusades, for example, if he wanted to criticize religiously-inspired violence and it would not have given offence to others.

 

 

 

 

Name Kunhimon -

Profession Engineer

Question We muslims believe that there is a book given to Prophet Isa by God called Injeel. Do you believe Christ prieched such a book? If yes, where is it appearing in the bible?

 

 

 

Answer Injil (or Injeel) is the Arabic word for "Gospel". Among the 72 books that make up the Christian collection of Sacred literature called the Bible, four of those books are called "Gospels."

 

 

We Christians do not believe that Jesus brought any revealed book from God. Rather, we believe that he embodies God's revelation for humankind.

 

 

 

bluesky: Attn: Any Christian , can u pl. explain this comment ?

 

 

 

he Four Gospels (and the other books of the Bible) point to Jesus to tell us who he is, what God has been teaching us and doing for us in the life of Jesus. So our Christian understanding of God's revelation is different from the Islamic understanding on this point.

 

 

 

Name Omar -

Profession

Question In light of the twisted fundamentalist ideas some terrorists have, how wise do you think the Pope's remarks were? Don't you think it just added fuel to an already raging fire? Now the terroists will feel justified in killing civilians. With this in mind, how did the Pope's speech seem wise at the time it was written and reviewed?

 

 

 

 

Answer I do not believe that the Pope's remarks were wise. I believe that someone in the Vatican should have told him that before he ever delivered his remarks. I feel that all this could have been avoided if the Pope's advisors and assistants had been doing their job correctly. I hope that the Pope's remarks, which were not wise, does not fuel more violence. I hope that Muslims will accept his apology and forgive.

 

Name Aloysius -

Profession Rocket Scientist

Question Are you pessimistic about Islamic terrorists launching another misguided attack upon the Vatican?

 

 

 

 

 

Answer No, people don't seem to be thinking about that. I haven't seen any added security around Vatican City. I'm hopeful that the Muslim ambassadors' meeting today with the Pope will be a step toward reconciliation. It will take a long time to rebuild the trust that was there with Pope John Paul II but I believe that Pope Benedict can still do that. The Muslims I've been in contact with since this crisis started seem confident that after a real apology, we will be able to move forward again.

 

Name Mohammad - Egypt

Profession

Question Is there a way for interfaith dialogue and mutual respect to stop future misunderstanding?

 

 

 

 

Answer Dear Mohammad, I believe that dialogue and mutual respect can stop future misunderstanding. In families, we are always getting into arguments, and someone says the wrong thing and others are angry. The important thing is to keep the lines of communication open. I'm convinced that what we Muslims and Christians together

 

For both of us, God is at the center and root of our lives, the basis of our morality. In a world where many people do not care about God or God's will for us, sincere Muslims and Christians must engage in dialogue in order to come to a common understanding of the witness we must give to our world.

 

Name Abdullah - Jordan

Profession

Question Has Pope Benedict XVI held meetings with Vatican officials and explained what he really meant in his speech? Or was his message clear to all Vatican officials from the start?

 

 

 

Answer Dear Abdullah, I really don't know. As I explained in an answer to another question, I worked in the Vatican as Head of the Office for Islam for 13 years, between 1981 and 1994. I don't work there any more, but I am a "consultor." Friends in the Vatican told me that the Pope has not called them together to explain what he meant in his speech.

 

 

 

His message was not clear to all Vatican officials from the start. The vast majority of them did not even see the text until they read about it in the newspapers. A few who were close to the Pope told reporters anonymously that they had expressed reservations about the text.

 

Name Ali - Kuwait

Profession

Question What efforts are exerted on the Vatican's side to decrease the gap between the angered Muslims and the Pope?

Answer Dear Ali, A week ago Sunday, during his noonday audience, the Pope said he was sorry for the offence given to Muslims. His Secretary of State, Cardinal Bertone, said basically the same thing, that the Pope never intended to offend Muslims.

 

 

Then today (25 September) the Pope invited all the Muslim ambassadors to the Vatican to his residence in Castel Gandolfo, and there he gave a good speech in which he repeated the words of the Second Vatican Council: "The Church looks upon Muslims with respect." In addition, many of us have been trying to do what we can to build reconciliation. I have written my own apologies in Muslim journals in several countries. If you are interested I can send you what I have written.

 

 

Name Alaa - Egypt

Profession

 

 

Question Has the Pope considered travelling to certain Muslim states and clear away the clouds?

Answer Dear Alaa, The Pope intends to travel to Turkey in late November. I haven't heard of any other visits to Muslim countries that are planned. Of course, as a head of state (the tiny "Vatican City") the Pope cannot visit any country without an invitation from that country.

 

Name anonymous -

Profession

 

 

 

Question Why does the the Pope keep making semi-apologies, one after the other -- no real apologies, but rather saying that it is Muslims who misunderstood him or that the contorversial statement was made by the Bezantine Emperor and that the Pope only quoted him, semi apologies from this sort. By doing so, the Pope makes it seem to the West like he is the one who compromises and who keeps "apologizing" whereas Muslims insist on making trouble. Whereas, in reality, what Muslims asked for was ONE clear-cut, direct apology, nothing more.

 

 

 

 

 

Answer I agree with you. In human life, what start out as apologies often turn into self-justifications (e.g., "I'm sorry I'm late, but I didn't get your message until late, and then you didn't tell me very clearly where we were supposed to meet etc." Such "apologies" tend not to be accepted and the bad feelings continue.) I would like to see exactly what you asked for: a clear-cut direct apology.

 

Name J.D. -

Profession

Question The Vatican talks a lot about "reciprocity" in regard to Islam. Can you explain what this means?

Answer It means that the Vatican hopes that the same religious freedoms and privileges that are given to Muslims when they are minorities in Christian-majority countries will be given to Chritian minorities in Muslim-majority nations: The right to have their own schools, build their own churches, carry out charitable works, change religions freely, ...etc. In one country, Christians cannot have churches to worship God in. In some countries, it is not permitted to change religion. The Vatican says that their should be mutual or reciprocal recognition of each other's rights.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Below, please read Fr. Michel's bio in full:

 

Fr. Thomas was born in 1941. After studies in philosophy and theology, he was ordained a Catholic priest of the Archdiocese of St. Louis in 1967, and took vows in the Society of Jesus in 1971 in Yogyakarta, Indonesia and is a member of the Indonesian province of the Jesuits.

 

After Arabic and Islamic studies in Egypt and Lebanon, he completed a doctoral dissertation on the thought of the 8/14 Century Muslim scholar Ibn Taymiyya and received a Ph.D. in Islamic Thought from the University of Chicago in 1978.

 

Between 1978-1981, he taught at Sanata Dharma University in Yogyakarta, Indonesia.

 

In 1981, he was appointed to the Asia Desk of the Vatican's Pontifical Council for Inter-religious Dialogue and in 1988, he became Head of the Office for Islam in the same Vatican department.

 

Between 1994-1996 he served as Executive Secretary of the Office for Ecumenical and Inter-religious Affairs of the Federation of Asian Bishops' Conferences (FABC-OEIA), in Bangkok, Thailand.

 

Fr. Thomas Michel is currently Secretary of the Jesuit Secretariat for Inter-religious Dialogue in Rome, Italy, and Ecumenical Secretary for the Federation of Asian Bishops’ Conferences.

 

 

 

 

Fr. Michel is on the Academic Council of the "Center for Muslim-Christian Understanding" of Georgetown University, Washington, USA. He is on the International Advisory Board of the Khalidi Library, Jerusalem, and the Editorial Board of the journal Islam and Christian-Muslim Relations in Birmingham, UK. He is on the International Advisory Panel of the International Movement for a Just World in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia and the International Advisory Committee of the Center for World Thanksgiving, Dallas, Texas, USA and on the Advisory Board of the Centre for Civilizational Dialogue at the University of Malaya in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia.

 

 

 

He has taught at Northwestern and Columbia Universities in the U.S.A, at Sanata Dharma University and Driyarkara Institute of Philosophy in Indonesia, at St. Paul’s Major Seminary, Dansalan College, and Euntes Asian Center in the Philippines, at Ankara, Dokuz Eylül, Seljuk, and Harran Universities in Turkey, at the Pontifical Institute for Arabic/Islamic Studies in Rome, at St. Peter's Major Seminary in Malaysia, at St. Paul’s Seminary in Albania, and at the University of Birmingham, in England. In 2000, he delivered the D’Arcy Lectures at Oxford University in Oxford, England, on Christian-Muslim relations.

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Peace from our Lord,

 

bluesky: Attn: Any Christian , can u pl. explain this comment ?

 

Yes. God's revelation was in quite different ways, not just books:

Hebrews 1:1. God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,

Çááå ÈÚà ãÇ ßáã ÇáÂÈÇà ÈÇáÇäÈíÇà ÞÃíãÇ ÈÇäæÇÚ æØÑÞ ßËíÑÉ .1

The book called Gospels got their name because theay contained the Gospel. The Gospel is a message, a short version of the Gospel is, e.g.

Acts 17:29. "Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man.

30. "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,

31. because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."

ýÃÇà äÃä ÃÑíÉ Çááå áÇ íäÈÛí Çä äÙä Çä ÇááÇåæÊ ÔÈíå ÈÃåÈ Çæ ÃÖÉ Çæ ÃÌÑ äÞÔ ÕäÇÚÉ æÇÎÊÑÇÚ ÇäÓÇäý. .29

ýÃÇááå ÇáÂä íÇãÑ ÌãíÚ ÇáäÇÓ Ãí ßá ãßÇä Çä íÊæÈæÇ ãÊÛÇÖíÇ Úä ÇÒãäÉ ÇáÌåáý. .30

ýáÇäå ÇÞÇã íæãÇ åæ Ãíå ãÒãÚ Çä íÃíä ÇáãÓßæäÉ ÈÇáÚÃá ÈÑÌá Þà Úíäå ãÞÃãÇ ááÌãíÚ ÇíãÇäÇ Çà ÇÞÇãå ãä ÇáÇãæÇÊ .31

In such a short version of the Gospel, there are, of course, some aspects of the Gospel ommitted, these sentence were preached to pagan philosophers, who did not believe in resurrection and interrupted the preacher. If You are interested, I can post other "versions" of the Gospel in short form we can find in the Bible.

 

The English word "Gospel" is a sort of translation, the word originally meant "Good News" ("good spell" in Old English). The Greek word it is translated from is euaggelion (good or joyful message), the "gg" pronounced like "ng". The Arab word Ingil is derived from euaggelion, the pronunciation of the "gimel" sound has changed from "g" in Muhamads time to "dj", hence the common spelling Injil.

 

The Muslims are wrong when they think the Gospel was a book. The Gospel is mentioned several times in the Qor'an, but it is never called a book (at least no one in this forum could show me verse where it is said the Injil was a book).

 

And in the deeper sense that mesage is a person, the word of God, namely Jesus. In Christ, God himself visited us. To quote the catholic priest:

The Four Gospels (and the other books of the Bible) point to Jesus to tell us who he is, what God has been teaching us and doing for us in the life of Jesus

 

We do not narrow down God's revelations to books, we know God is greater and has given greater revelations.

 

[[mended a typo]]

Edited by looking by

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Oh my , religious quotes , religious platitudes , man's habit of writing volumes over a single sentence ......such is the TRAP of religion , so pitifull .

 

Look ......to all the geniuses , apologists , would be theologians and psuedo-philosophers .....

 

The Popes statement was quite clear and utterly simple ....so take off your religious -lensed glasses , put away your pride and ego's , or the faux-religious zeal .

 

 

The Pope wants christians to be treated with the same tolerance in muslim nations as muslims are afforded in western nations .

 

Now if that is unreasonable to anyone , then choke on his words , you will never hear him apologize for that . In fact you have'nt heard him apologize for that .

 

That is the message in the speech that causes you so much trouble , and that is what you hear in his subsequent explanations .

 

And it obvious that , no doubt , there are many to whom, THAT is unacceptable .

 

THAT IS ,and HAS BEEN , the bone of contention between muslims and christians for the past millenia .

 

DUH .

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The Pope wants christians to be treated with the same tolerance in muslim nations as muslims are afforded in western nations .

 

are non muslims really treated harsh in muslim countries? if so give examples

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only the other day three guys tried attacking my mate who was with his wife at the time, when he found them later on thier own they where nothing.... is that what most westerners are like? do you represent these poeple? should you apologise for them? i dont think so and vice versa.....

Oh so violent crime is only against muslims in the UK?

It's quite a common phenomenon actually, I got mugged and beaten a few years ago, you know why? because they could. Do you know why it went unreported? Because I didn't report it.

It happens, get on with it.

Most westerners are not like that, but most westerners (your mate included) will experience that behaviour at some point.

If you stop playing the victim all the time, and stop crying foul when things aren't going your way then the people that don't like you might have more time for you. So much moaning.

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I tire of your game Shaimahmood . Maybe you've been living in a cave ....WHY DON'T YOU GIVE EXAMPLES OF HOW THEY ARE NOT .

 

Or does the pope " got it all wrong " .

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are non muslims really treated harsh in muslim countries? if so give examples

A non-muslim religion may lose some of its members by conversion to Islam. But if a Muslim wants to converse to another religion (be it theistic or atheistic), he will soon get into trouble, and experience harsh treatment.

 

Thats just one example, one that is valid for virtually every Islamic country.

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Thats just one example, one that is valid for virtually every Islamic country.

And not just in Islamic countries, even in the West a convert has to be cautious, because there are extremists that want to kill him.

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it is not tolerance or lack of violent reprisals at all... you know as a fact that there is plenty of violence towards muslims in the uk, most of it goes unreported.... only the other day three guys tried attacking my mate who was with his wife at the time, when he found them later on thier own they where nothing.... is that what most westerners are like? do you represent these poeple? should you apologise for them? i dont think so and vice versa.....

 

the MAJORITY of muslims did not get violent and start rioting at all, i didnt and neither did anyone i know, the only people who got violent where the ones the media was watching... strange eh....

 

i never said violence was justified, im just making it clear that there will be no sorrys from me... i didnt harm no one, neither did anyone i know so if you want appologies once again look elsewhere...

 

 

I think you'll find it was you that was defending violent reprisals with all your big talk about "your lot taking action", whilst "my lot simply moaned and grumbled"

You've changed your tune quickly.

Now you are claiming that violence is wrong, and "my lot" actually do a lot more than just "moan and grumble".

Make your mind up, and come back when you can form a opinion by which you can stand.

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I tire of your game Shaimahmood . Maybe you've been living in a cave ....WHY DON'T YOU GIVE EXAMPLES OF HOW THEY ARE NOT .

No, it's you who should give examples. Don't even try to shift the burden of proof.

 

Or does the pope " got it all wrong " .

Why not, he is just a human being after all. Even bush with his top consultants and staff got wrong reports bout Iraq WMD.

 

Wassalam,

Yasnov

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are non muslims really treated harsh in muslim countries? if so give examples

 

Christians and Jews are attempting to leave Iran in droves. They would leave faster but Iran makes it harder for Jews to leave than Muslims.

 

Why, in Egypt, do Christian churches have to deal with Hamayouni restrictions, while Masjids do not?

 

I won't even get into Saudi Arabia and Sudan.

 

Why, if the nation is majority Muslim, do they often feel the need to treat other religions as second class citizens? Why must a distinction be made between people based on their religion and why must the laws be different for them?

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With the name of Allah ( God Almighty ) -The Bestower Of Unlimited Mercy, The Continuously Merciful

 

Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of Allah be upon you)

 

Listen to the holy Quran

 

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.islamicity(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/MOSQUE/ARABICSCRIPT/AYAT/1/1_1.htm"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.islamicity(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/MOSQUE/ARABICSCRIPT/AYAT/1/1_1.htm[/url]

 

 

&&&

 

A non-muslim religion may lose some of its members by conversion to Islam. But if a Muslim wants to converse to another religion (be it theistic or atheistic), he will soon get into trouble, and experience harsh treatment.

 

Thats just one example, one that is valid for virtually every Islamic country.

 

 

 

 

 

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.beliefnet(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/story/82/story_8281_1.html"] From a Western Minaret[/url]

 

Michael Wolfe

 

 

..... about being a Muslim in America. How does it feel?

 

 

 

When you become a Muslim here, unless you keep it secret, the perks have a way of disappearing right before your eyes.

 

 

***

 

thanks a lot for ur explanation (Post #112) , I will Insha Allah write next week.

Edited by bluesky

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Peace from our Lord,

 

Michael Wolfe

..... about being a Muslim in America. How does it feel?

When you become a Muslim here, unless you keep it secret, the perks have a way of disappearing right before your eyes.

***

Ever been interrogated by the secret police (in US, it may be the FBI) because You accepted Islam? Accused of being a collaborator to Iran or Lybia?

 

I have heard stories of persons who converted from Islam to Christianity, people in Morocco, Egypt, Turkey, and Iran were accuswed of being CIA agents just because they converted. Not by "perks", by the government's secret police. And I don't claim these are all countries where such things happened.

 

And as to reaction of the personal environment, in Islam this is not a matter of "disappearing perks", but rather a matter of life and death. In one attempt to kill a convert even the own mother collaborated with the assasssins.

 

May be there are parrallels to this in the US (sometimes rather strange stories arrive Europe), but even then the majority of Christians will protest against it, while in many Muslim communities, people don't care about that. A convert deserves to die, that's normal.

 

There are web links where You can find stories of converts, I am sure I am not allowed to post them here. Because reading them might be devastating...

 

Can You tell me a country where an interview with a convert from Islam (I don't require the convert to be a Christian, any other faith including atheism will suffice) could be seen on tv? I can't count how many interviews of Muslim converts I have seen on German tv...

 

Truth is defended by arguments, it is the error that has to be defended by violence.

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Peace from our Lord,

 

No, it's you who should give examples.

There are a lot of examples. In one of my (www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.gawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showtopic=33359&st=120&p=352922?entry352922"]answers to you[/url] I mentioned one passing by. I could even take some from Your "christian aggression" site, there are examples on it where it is obvious that the facts are distorted.

 

Show me an Islamic country, where a Atheists, Buddhists, Christian, Deists, and so on have the same rights than Muslims.

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Peace from our Lord,

 

The Pope wants christians to be treated with the same tolerance in muslim nations as muslims are afforded in western nations .

....

THAT IS ,and HAS BEEN , the bone of contention between muslims and christians for the past millenia .

No, that's not true, at least not true in the way You write it. Some months ago, I read a book about how the catholic church changed its mind from intolerance ("there is nothing like a right to cling toan error") to tolerance. The book covered the time from the mid-19th century to the second council of the vatican about 40 years ago. The decisive step from intolelerance totolerance is about 50 years ago.

 

Up to the 16th century, the catholic churched approved violence against heretics. After the slaughter of the protestants in France (bartholomew's night) the Pope emitted a coin celebration the "slaughter of the hugenots" (as the latin inscription said).

 

This attitude changed in the 17th century. If You think of the Pope, the kind of treatment of unbelievers,infidels and heretics can only have been a dispute for at most 400 years.

 

There were Christians who thought otherwise, mennonites rejected the use of violence since their very existence (it was rejected in bookled written about 1535), another example is Franciscus from Assissi (whose adherents were persecuted and "tamed" by the Catholic church), one of the "crusaders" that came peacefully (and the only peaceful one I know of that arrived palestine).

 

You might say that true Christians differed from Muslims on the questions of violence over a millennium (I would prefer to speak of 1400 years), but if You mention the Pope or the catholic church, You have to use a smaller number.

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