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How Long Before Someone Takes A Shot At Benedict Xvi ?

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Muppet, im not going to go into who's harder waffle as we can argue all day long and wont get anywhere

 

Shahid, Jersay wasn't talking to you or arguing with you. He was making a seperate point and I think you misunderstood.

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PropellerAds
You mean its actually not 'One nation, indivisible under God?' :D

No, it's not. The US is far from any sort of collective. It seems you know very little about the US.

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Way too much censorship going on on this site.

 

I'll agree with diverdown on this. The title of his xyz taliban dead post should not have been changed. Changing a title doesn't change the content or the intention.

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No, it's not. The US is far from any sort of collective. It seems you know very little about the US.

 

Actually I'm intimately familiar with the US of A. Was being facetious there.

Edited by Ozymandias

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I don't think Muslims want a real holy war. They will lose, terribly.

I think you sound so sure because you've got bombs. I think Vietnam should serve a lesson for you. Just because you think you are big and powerful, it won't always be like that in reality. History is full of unexpected things like this. Modest Muslims conquered two superpowers a few centuries ago. Why cannot history repeat itself?

 

Wassalam,

Yasnov

Edited by Yasnov

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Yep, they do happen everywhere. But it's usually over something substantial, like a Super Bowl victory, not the words of an old man. :D And they're certainly not directed at a certain group of people. :D

 

It's not the motive what matters, but the consequences and the fact, that you actually also do the same thing. Maybe you'll also say that you are proud that you only kill civilians by bombs, not by sword.

 

Wassalam,

Yasnov

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Muslims claim to be part of the "Ummah". Do you see Christians make any claim like this? No. Christianity is a personal religion. Islam is like a collective. By definition, you are more responsible for the actions of other Muslims.

 

No religion is ever an entirely personal affair. If that were the case would there ever have been an inquistion or the persecution of Arians and so on and on? Would the Christian nations have rallied together for the crusades if not for a collective sense? Why then would anyone say 'brothers and sisters in Christ?' And using your favourite device...why would you yourself care for a dead nun? Its not purely out of a sense of humanity because then you'd have to mention all the dead, everywhere. Yes, Islam is meant to be a collective, but in actual fact muslims are far more disunited than the Christians are, we're just a lot louder. Am I responsible for a muslim who commits murder? No I am not, or at least no more responsible than you are for the actions of someone who may share your creed but not your values. In the end we must all account to our Creator, whatever we may name Him, as individuals. I have no problem if you choose to criticise me, my country or even my religion, but don't be blind to the truth even if it is tempting to do so.

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Muslims claim to be part of the "Ummah". Do you see Christians make any claim like this? No. Christianity is a personal religion. Islam is like a collective. By definition, you are more responsible for the actions of other Muslims.

 

Funny how you interpret the concept of Ummah for Muslim people. Then how will you explain that in Islam, one Muslim is not responsible for the sins committted by another Muslim?

 

Doesn't your secular country say anything about, one for all, and all for one? unity in diversity? brotherhood? and etc

 

Wassalam,

Yasnov

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If that were the case would there ever have been an inquistion or the persecution of Arians and so on and on? Would the Christian nations have rallied together for the crusades if not for a collective sense? Why then would anyone say 'brothers and sisters in Christ?' And using your favourite device...why would you yourself care for a dead nun? Its not purely out of a sense of humanity because then you'd have to mention all the dead, everywhere. Yes, Islam is meant to be a collective, but in actual fact muslims are far more disunited than the Christians are, we're just a lot louder. Am I responsible for a muslim who commits murder? No I am not, or at least no more responsible than you are for the actions of someone who may share your creed but not your values. In the end we must all account to our Creator, whatever we may name Him, as individuals. I have no problem if you choose to criticise me, my country or even my religion, but don't be blind to the truth even if it is tempting to do so.

Christianity has evolved, quite a bit, since the Middle Ages. Christinianity was a terrible thing, back then.

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Funny how you interpret the concept of Ummah for Muslim people. Then how will you explain that in Islam, one Muslim is not responsible for the sins committted by another Muslim?

 

Doesn't your secular country say anything about, one for all, and all for one? unity in diversity? brotherhood? and etc

Are Muslims allowed to have different beliefs regarding Allah? No.

Are Americans allowed to have different beliefs regarding democracy? Yes.

 

Muslims say they're supposed to have come to the defense of Muslims who are oppressed. But when Muslims are the oppressors, you want to wash your hands of it? You can't have it both ways.

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I think you sound so sure because you've got bombs. I think Vietnam should serve a lesson for you. Just because you think you are big and powerful, it won't always be like that in reality. History is full of unexpected things like this. Modest Muslims conquered two superpowers a few centuries ago. Why cannot history repeat itself?

 

Wassalam,

Yasnov

Look, I don't want a holy war, but it seems like Muslims do. And if it came down to a situation where one side, or the other, had to be exterminated, do you honestly think Muslims would have a chance? I'm not talking about occupation (like Vietnam and Iraq), here. I'm talking about extermination.

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I'm talking about extermination.

 

When it comes to extermination, the guy with the most nukes wins, no question. I'll answer your holy war comments later.

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Are Muslims allowed to have different beliefs regarding Allah? No.

Like what? Most Muslims have same beliefs regarding Allah, otherwise they are not Muslim.

 

Are Americans allowed to have different beliefs regarding democracy? Yes.

Like what?

 

Muslims say they're supposed to have come to the defense of Muslims who are oppressed. But when Muslims are the oppressors, you want to wash your hands of it? You can't have it both ways.

When Americans are oppressed abroad, your country (through your representatives) will urge your secular government to come to their defense, another example, hours before the execution of convicted christians, your pope comes to their defense by sending a letter to our president to ask for postponemet of the execution or maybe a cancellation. Your argument does not hold any water I am afraid.

 

Wassalam,

Yasnov

Edited by Yasnov

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Look, I don't want a holy war, but it seems like Muslims do. And if it came down to a situation where one side, or the other, had to be exterminated, do you honestly think Muslims would have a chance? I'm not talking about occupation (like Vietnam and Iraq), here. I'm talking about extermination.

 

LOL, what a dream. If you talk about nuking a whole country. Then it means you risk murdering the minorities other than your target, Muslims. You can't be too sure that you'll win when you are so afraid of death and so comfortable with your lives.

 

Btw, what kind of discussion is this? :D

 

Wassalam,

Yasnov

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When Americans are oppressed abroad, your country (through your representatives) will urge your secular government to come to their defense, another example, hours before the execution of convicted christians, your pope comes to their defense by sending a letter to our president to ask for postponemet of the execution or maybe a cancellation.

 

The Pope is not American, and he wrote the letter partially based on the international finding that said the trial was not fair. The Pope did not promise nor imply any negative consequences to Indonesia for carrying out the executions. It was simply a request.

 

You make way too much out of this letter.

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You know, we are comparing apples and oranges here. You cannot compare a religion with a country. You could compare Islam and Judaism, or the USA and Iran, but not China and Hinduism.

Since this whole line of argument itself is based on false premises, nothing can come out of it except maybe a few gratuitous insults. Agreed?

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The Pope is not American, and he wrote the letter partially based on the international finding that said the trial was not fair. The Pope did not promise nor imply any negative consequences to Indonesia for carrying out the executions. It was simply a request.

I think you don't really follow this discussion, it's not about whether the pope is american or not, but it's about the earlier statement made by the Real Mega, please read what he wrote below:

 

Real Mega wrote:

Muslims say they're supposed to have come to the defense of Muslims who are oppressed. But when Muslims are the oppressors, you want to wash your hands of it? You can't have it both ways.

So, it is hard to say that what the pope did was not intended to help his christian brothers. Because he should also have sent letters to my president asking to spare the lives of Amrozi and friends, if it is really for humanity grounds, opposing death penalty

 

Btw, why do you think the trail was not fair? Were you at the court room when the evidence were presented and witnesses gave their testimony and the defendants admitted their crimes? It would be much better if you can give me the link bout the international findings.

 

Wassalam,

Yasnov

Edited by Yasnov

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When Americans are oppressed abroad, your country (through your representatives) will urge your secular government to come to their defense, another example, hours before the execution of convicted christians, your pope comes to their defense by sending a letter to our president to ask for postponemet of the execution or maybe a cancellation. Your argument does not hold any water I am afraid.

 

Wassalam,

Yasnov

What is more constructive, writing a letter, or rioting, threatening death, and burning effigies?

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Short of an air-strike on Vatican City, i think the Pope's pretty well protected, hence the bullet-proof Pope-Mobile and his own personal army of Vatican Swiss Guards who, aside from wearing very silly uniforms, are exceedingly well trained.

Dan Browns book "Angels and Demons" is a good source if you want to find out about the goings on in Vatican City, and is also a good story too.

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What is more constructive, writing a letter, or rioting, threatening death, and burning effigies?

 

I think the original issue is this:

Real Mega wrote:

Muslims say they're supposed to have come to the defense of Muslims who are oppressed. But when Muslims are the oppressors, you want to wash your hands of it? You can't have it both ways.

So did your secular country not come to the defense of American people when it decided to invade Afghanistan and Iraq which were considered to pose a threat to American people and interests? I think that's the point here.

 

Wassalam,

Yasnov

Edited by Yasnov

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You know, we are comparing apples and oranges here. You cannot compare a religion with a country. You could compare Islam and Judaism, or the USA and Iran, but not China and Hinduism.

Since this whole line of argument itself is based on false premises, nothing can come out of it except maybe a few gratuitous insults. Agreed?

 

As some non-Muslims have pointed out here, it is only valid to compare Islam religion with a country. Because in our religion, politics affairs are included. Islam is also a political system, IMHO

 

Wassalam,

Yasnov

Edited by Yasnov

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So did your secular country not come to the defense of American people when it decided to invade Afghanistan and Iraq which were considered to pose a threat to American people and interests? I think that's the point here.

I have never supported either war. The war is just a red herring. The US government has been very hypocritical in this respect.

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As some non-Muslims have pointed out here, it is only valid to compare Islam religion with a country. Because in our religion, politics affairs are included. Islam is also a political system, IMHO

 

Wassalam,

Yasnov

Yes, it's an unfortunate truth. Islam will never be seperate from politics. :D

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I think people get very confused in terms of the actions of a persons country compared to the wishes of the massive majority of its citizens.

We didn't vote to go to war, it was done DESPITE the pleadings of the people and there still exists a huge body of people that is completely against the wars in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

 

The so-called "War On Terror" is an attempt to cover up the fact that America is falling quickly into recession.

Wars are very good for the economy.

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I have never supported either war. The war is just a red herring. The US government has been very hypocritical in this respect.

No, if I use the mindset of some people here, you are still wrong and guilty whether you support the war or not, because you share bush's ideology who believe in secularism, not to mention that you share his faith too. Double faults.

 

Wassalam,

Yasnov

Edited by Yasnov

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