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Pope Quotation In English And German

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Was this pure negliance, or are there some guys in the Vatican that wanted to let the speech appear a provocation to muslims?

 

Considering the lengths that the Church has been going to improve relations with Muslim, even planning a trip to Turkey, I don't see this happening.

 

This is simply a case of a statement being blown completely out of proportion to its significance.

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First the Source I got the german qoutation from:

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_212.77.1.245/news_services/bulletin/news/18792.php#DISCORSO%32DEL%32SANTO%32PADRE"]Vatican source of speech[/url]

There is also an English translation there.

 

When I first heard about the reactions, it seemed to me that there was another campaign like the exaggerated cartoons, and this time clearly irrational: there was no reason rerason to believe the pope had identified hinself with the quotation, given the strong words he described it:

 

German original (I had to transcribe some umlauts)

Ohne sich auf Einzelheiten wie die unterschiedliche Behandlung von „Schriftbesitzern" und „Unglaeubigen" einzulassen, wendet er sich in erstaunlich schroffer, uns überraschend schrofferForm ganz einfach mit der zentralen Frage nach dem Verhaeltnis von Religion und Gewalt überhaupt an seinen Gespraechspartner. Er sagt: „[ quote ommitted]". Der Kaiser begründet, nachdem er so zugeschlagen hat,dann eingehend, warum Glaubensverbreitung durch Gewalt widersinnig ist

My translation (emphasis added):

"Without meddling with details on different treatment of "infidels" and "people of the book", he simply turns in a an astonishingly brusque way, embarassing brusquely for us, to his interlocutor on the central question about the relationship between religion and violence in general, saying [...] The emperor, after having hit so that way, goes on to explain in detail the reasons why spreading the faith through violence is something unreasonable."

 

And then I found a rather different translation:

"Without descending to details, such as the difference in treatment accorded to those who have the “Book†and the “infidels,†he turns to his interlocutor somewhat brusquely with the central question on the relationship between religion and violence in general, in these words: [...]

The emperor goes on to explain in detail the reasons why spreading the faith through violence is something unreasonable. Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul."

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.cwnews(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=46474"]CNW translation[/url]

 

Now this sounds rather different from the German original, where the strongs words leave no doubts that the Pope considered the words of that emporer as rude.

The English translation on the vatican page is somewhat between the German version and the CNW translation.

 

Was this pure negliance, or are there some guys in the Vatican that wanted to let the speech appear a provocation to muslims?

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Intentions will no doubt be question ad infinitum .

 

However it is common knowledge that the truth always offends .

 

And what is that truth ?

 

Is is what you want it to be ? Or the actual sentiment that the Pope was expressing ?

 

it is easy to take the qouted words of the Emperor , out of their context , and pretend THAT is the Popes message to muslims .

 

In fact that is exactly what happened , and is no surprise .

 

The popes message however was quite simple and basic , and should not have offended anyone but the guilty .

 

And that message was one that muslims themselves are familiar with ..... " religion should not compel ". Nor should it be propagated by fear or violence .

 

 

That was the message . If it offended , then ....oh well .

 

And it was relevant to the vatican, which has been complaining forever ,regarding the treatment of christians .

 

But obviously there are those who took what they chose out of that statement .

The Pope apologized not for the statement , but apologized to those who took it the wrong way and got offended , and had offered the explanation .

 

And that in my opinion was enough .

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This thread is suprisingly unpopular considering it exlains why the Pope did nothing wrong and why the muslim reaction was ridiculous. I would have thought this would be buzzing with activity as everyone realised what fools muslim leaders had been...

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Considering the lengths that the Church has been going to improve relations with Muslim, even planning a trip to Turkey, I don't see this happening.

"The" church is somewhat misleading: for many people, this expression denotes all Christians, not just one specific church. You meant the roman Catholic church.

 

And a church consist of humans, it is not altogether impossible that there are men in the vaticans who wanted a harsher tone in the speech. I don't say they wanted riots - that kind of plot seems to be rather strange to the Catholic church, it sounds more like CIA.

 

What is certain that there a lot of people on the Muslim side that want confrontation. Whether it were the Danish cartoons (a case not altogether harmless, but blown up to a dimension that cannot be justified by the cartoons themselves), the denial of the holocaust (an absurd provocation: if Ahmadinedschad believes what he says he is outing himself as a duped victim of antijewish propaganda), or the many riots that were stirred up after someone tried to use Mohammad and his words as an argument for his case - people get the impression that they are denied to say what they want, while Muslims continue to criticiese and ridicule anything they want.

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This thread is suprisingly unpopular considering it exlains why the Pope did nothing wrong and why the muslim reaction was ridiculous.

 

Well it really doesnt come to much of a surprise to me, people dont like to admit that their wrong. Anything outside of the common muslim viewpoint or comfort zone on this forum is ignored/not touched upon, we're only fed news about what we want to hear and what we'd want to see, and all notions of being objective and the "bigger picture" are thrown out the window. I think you have to understand, that on this forum most of the time people arent looking for the bigger picture, they just want to be fed something they want to know.

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Double "thumbs up " to the two previous posts ! :D :D

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I am curious to hear what the Imams of the members of forum told them at the Masjid about the Pope.

 

Was it brought up by them? If so, what did they have to say?

 

If it was negative, what does reading this thread make you think or feel?

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I am curious to hear what the Imams of the members of forum told them at the Masjid about the Pope.

 

Was it brought up by them? If so, what did they have to say?

 

If it was negative, what does reading this thread make you think or feel?

 

I know we may sound smug on this thread, but Livius makes an interesting point. I would also like to know what you think happened to blow this speech out of all proportions. Was it careless readings by Muslim leaders? A victim culture which led many to just assume the Pope said something disgraceful when he in fact didn't?

 

Like the cartoons, what happened?

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Interesting to say the least. Why isn't this bigger news is what I want to know, and why is looking by the only german speaker to point this out?

As I recall there was also a thread claiming that the original Farsi version of Ahmedinejad's speech did not call for israel to be 'wiped off the map'. Funny how that didn't garner any comment from those now wondering why we aren't taking note of this. Could it be that there are actually people on 'your' side that want conflict with Iran?

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I am curious to hear what the Imams of the members of forum told them at the Masjid about the Pope.

 

I'll answer that one. Mine had nothing to say at all. But then, he's completely apolitical and never comments on international affairs. He is what you might call a moral Islamist in that he only concentrates on rectifying the mistakes we commit in practising Islam and on how to correctly conduct our daily affairs etc. Am not personally a big fan of political Mullahs. On a related note, I don't think too many people even noticed the Popes comments out here. The usual political malcontents took out a smallish rally with the usual unemployed rent-a-mob but that was all. There were also some indignant editorials and such.

 

p.s Looking by, where is the quote on your sig from?

Edited by Ozymandias

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why we aren't taking note of this. Could it be that there are actually people on 'your' side that want conflict with Iran?

 

LOL....are you kidding ? Ahmadinejab went out of the way , and on several occaisions to make crysatal clear what he meant . Plus ,he has repeated it like a broken record ever since .

There is no question amomgst intelligent people as to what Ahamadinejab said , nor what the Pope said , sorry but abrogation , and "interpretation of interpretation " does not work well in the modern world .

 

 

I Think again ,that's typically childish of you Ozz , to even attempt a comparison .

 

But then again , that's all you man .

 

Could it be that you are sure of nothing in life except the conspiracies you digesat daily ?

 

You cant even conclude who did 9/11 , so your credibility on any srtatement is questionable at best .[LOL....even after the criminal himself admits it ] .

 

As far as any Farsi translation ? well you must take that from where it comes , fortunately there are other people in the world besides the Iranian media that speak farsi , and can render dead accurate translation . Which I 'm sure YOU would question , but hey ....so what .

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