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God's Existence

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Salaams

using pure logic, hume disproved everything except that God exists. Logic is only a tool that the mind can use, in itself it neither 'proves' nor 'disproves' anything, because it is always based upon predicates that humans decide upon themselves.

Let me point out that The God being discussed here is the theological God belonging to Abrahamaic faiths.

Plz do point out Where exactly does Hume prove that the such God exists?....Hume may have commented on the classical ontological/cosmological arguments...but those arguments didn't incorporate the Key divine attributes into the main schema so they are exempt from the function/point I am trying to make.

the only proof that you require for the existenceof god is your own existence.

Sounds more philosophical/poetic then rational and though I can see/agree where u comming from, I'm trying to steer clear of causality. :D ( bcaz that leads somewhere else)

by accepting you have existence and that you have free will, it is easy to see the 'rules' for a greater god, one in which you are a component. God is bound by the same rules that all consciouness is bound by, and that changes depending upon the realm you are looking in.

I am also trying to steer clear of metaphysics as well :D ... ..ok so u must say..."what's with all these stupid rules?...this llogical dude seems full of it"...but all I am trying to do is to simplify the equation for a quick answer. SO again, I am not referring to God as the creator/primary cause ...but the theistic God of Muslims/people of the books....who has a set of assigned attributes.( the 3 omni's)...SO

If god wants something It will happen...NOTHING ELSE MATTERS...that's what the function tries to show...Simple :D. So one step at a time :D bcaz

Once we understand the function, the rest is easy bcaz all we have to do it plug in the values.

Peace

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:D

 

Like it says in 36:7 in the Quran

"7. The Word is proved true against the greater part of them: for they do not believe."

 

I think it doesn't sound as clear in english. In arabic it makes more sense. Basically what I have interpretted from it is that the majority of us (the people) have realized the truth, yet we still don't become true Muslims. Why? The world has too much of a hold on us.

 

In 89:20 in the Quran

"20. And ye love wealth with inordinate love!"

The worldly wealth has such a hold on us. A lot of us WANT to be good, and we start each day in the morning saying 'today I will do my best' and by night time Satan has us back in his dirty grasp!! And we ask for forgiveness from Allah and start another day.

 

__

So you might say 'if God is all powerful how come He doesn't just send us all to Heaven, why even create Hell? Simple. Why should a man who spent all his life doing good deeds get the same fate and the most evil tyrant? This world is a test, every single thing is a test for us.

 

Those who TRULY seek guidance, Allah will guide them. So no matter what religion you are, if you acknowledge that there is someone up there, and just pray every night before you sleep. Say something like 'God, if you're up there, guide me to the straight path,' and mean it with all your heart. Allah will not let your prayers go unaswered.

 

:D

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using pure logic, hume disproved everything except that God exists. Logic is only a tool that the mind can use, in itself it neither 'proves' nor 'disproves' anything, because it is always based upon predicates that humans decide upon themselves.

 

the only proof that you require for the existenceof god is your own existence.

 

by accepting you have existence and that you have free will, it is easy to see the 'rules' for a greater god, one in which you are a component. God is bound by the same rules that all consciouness is bound by, and that changes depending upon the realm you are looking in. i

 

in the physical realm, then the material body is transient, just as the matter of the universe is transient - the material world is the body of God. However the sum total of energy in the universe cannot change, and matter is merely solidified matter (e=mc2)

 

in the intellectual realm, then ideas are permanent - any idea can be thought of and transmitted, and can last forever. Thus the concept of God is also permanent, although just as concepts change so does the individual/group minds temporary choice of ideas about God change - but the true idea of God is permanent, and only requires sufficient level of spirituality in an individual to realise it again.

 

in the spiritual realm, then God is the ultimate restriction - He is the masculine morality written upon every soul, every soul understands the concepts of freedom, justice, fairness, love - this is the core of God's message to us, and how we can know He exists, because outside of people raised in such a way as to prevent these internal messages coming through, then it is the natural birthright of every creature.

your error is for assuming and then looking for a God that is external to yourself - this is entirely false, and indeed must be as every spiritually minded person has pointed out God has no limits - but then you claim that you are not part of God?

 

you are the hand of God, how you behave, what you think, how you feel, how you intereact with other living creatures - all this is a part of God. If you choose evil, if you choose to deny the Godness in all living creatures, then you are cutting yourself off from God - this can only be temporary, and beleive me you will always pay for such acts (and not in the catholic sense of buying your way to heaven by handing over your money to the Church), but you must be free to choose in such a manner, just as your heart can choose to stop beating, even though *you* might wish it not to.

 

just as *you* have free will, so too your body has, so too your mind has, so too your heart has, so too your soul has - think about this, and then you will realise that above you too, you have free will, but God hopes you will do the right thing.

oh, and you cannot 'prove' the existence of god, except through manipulation of your own predicates. It really does come down to faith, just as to anyone who has learned of (www.)"reference/browse/wiki/Solipsism"]solipsism[/url] then a beleif in the reality of an external world is also a mater of faith.

 

neither can be proved.

 

hope that helps.

You've said alot of things without backing any of it up with reason? Is this because you seem to be saying there is no reason?

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Salaams

:D

 

Like it says in 36:7 in the Quran

"7. The Word is proved true against the greater part of them: for they do not believe."

 

I think it doesn't sound as clear in english. In arabic it makes more sense. Basically what I have interpretted from it is that the majority of us (the people) have realized the truth, yet we still don't become true Muslims. Why? The world has too much of a hold on us.

The world has a hold on us...true.

Satan has a hold on us...true

Our Nafs has a hold on us...true..

Assuming all true..the fcat remains that God's hold

should still be greater.

Why should a man who spent all his life doing good deeds get the same fate and the most evil tyrant? This world is a test, every single thing is a test for us.

Life is a test...fine :D

3 multiple choice questions on a sheet of paper is also a test..

why give us apainful test then? why O God of mercy ? Why?

Those who TRULY seek guidance, Allah will guide them. So no matter what religion you are, if you acknowledge that there is someone up there, and just pray every night before you sleep.

So first we acknowledge and that there is someone upstairs right?

Now how do we do that? :D

Be specific please

Peace

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Salaam to all,

 

The following are just a few verses fom the Quran. The quran itself is a sign from Allah....and in it are mentioned numerous signs of the existence of Allah. The life of the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) itself is full of signs and miracles. The answers are all there. And what is the point of applying your human theories to question the Creator when you hardly know anyhing beyond what He wills to reveal to you? He made it clear that it is His will that one should worship Him alone and since He is the creator, He made it clear HOW one should worship him - so submit if you agree and if you dont agree then go your way - up to you. He made it clear to you what happens if you believe and what happens if you don't. No one else will be responsible for one's own final destination except themselves. The belivers only have the duty of conveying the message and after that it is up to the individual.

 

May Allah guide us all and have Mecy on us.

 

Al-An'am (The Cattle)

6:117 Verily, thy Sustainer knows best as to who strays from His path, and best knows He as to who are the right-guided.

 

Al-Anfal (The Spoils of War)

8:53 This, because God would never change [56] the blessings with which He has graced a people unless they change their inner selves : [57] and [know] that God is all-hearing, all-seeing.

 

An-Nasr (The Help)

10:20 NOW THEY [who deny the truth] are wont to ask, "Why has no miraculous sign ever been bestowed upon him from on high by his Sustainer?" [30] Say, then: "God's alone is the knowledge of that which. is beyond the reach of human perception. [31] Wait, then, [until His will becomes manifest:] verily, I shall wait with you!"

 

Al-An'am (The Cattle)

6:157 or lest you say, "If a divine writ had been bestowed from on high upon us, we would surely have followed its guidance better than they did." [158] And so, a clear evidence of the truth has now come unto you from your Sustainer, and guidance, and grace. Who, then, could be more wicked than he who gives the lie to God's messages, and turns away from them in disdain? We shall requite those who turn away from Our messages in disdain with evil suffering for having thus turned away!

 

Al-An'am (The Cattle)

6:158 Do they, perchance, wait for the angels to appear unto them, or for thy Sustainer [Himself] to appear, or for some of thy Sustainer's [final] portents to appear? [159] [but] on the Day when thy Sustainer's [final] portents do appear, believing will be of no avail to any human being who did not believe before, or who, while believing, did no good works. [160] Say: "Wait, [then, for the Last Day, O unbelievers:] behold, we [believers] are waiting, too!"

 

Al-Imran (The Family of Imran)

3:154 Then, after this woe, He sent down upon you a sense of security, an inner calm which enfolded some of you, [112] whereas the others, who cared mainly for themselves, entertained wrong thoughts about God - thoughts of pagan ignorance - saying, "Did we, then, have any power of decision [in this matter]?" [113] Say: "Verily, all power of decision does rest with God" [114] - [but as for them,] they are trying to conceal within themselves that [weakness of faith] which they would not reveal unto thee, [O Prophet, by] saying, "If we had any power of decision, we would not have left so many dead behind." [115] Say [unto them]: "Even if you had remained in your homes, those [of you] whose death had been ordained would indeed have gone forth to the places where they were destined to lie down." And [all this befell you] so that God might put to a test all that you harbour in your bosoms, and render your innermost hearts [116] pure of all dross: for God is aware of what is in the hearts [of men].

 

Al-Baqara (The Cow)

2:255 GOD - there is no deity save Him, the Ever-Living, the Self-Subsistent Fount of All Being. Neither slumber overtakes Him, nor sleep. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is on earth. Who is there that could intercede with Him, unless it be by His leave? He knows all that lies open before men and all that is hidden from them, [247] whereas they cannot attain to aught of His knowledge save that which He wills [them to attain]. His eternal power [248] overspreads the heavens and the earth, and their upholding wearies Him not. And he alone is truly exalted, tremendous.

 

Al-Baqara (The Cow)

2:256 THERE SHALL BE no coercion in matters of faith. [249] Distinct has now become the right way from [the way of] error: hence, he who rejects the powers of evil [250] and believes in God has indeed taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way: for God is all-hearing, all-knowing.

 

Al-Baqara (The Cow)

2:284 Unto God belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is on earth. And whether you bring into the open what is in your minds or conceal it, God will call you to account for it; and then He will forgive whom He wills, and will chastise whom He wills: for God has the power to will anything.

 

Al-Imran (The Family of Imran)

3:66 Lo! You are the ones who would argue about that which is known to you; but why do you argue about something which is unknown to you? [52] Yet God knows [it], whereas you do not know:

 

An-Nisa (The Women)

4:17 Verily, God's acceptance of repentance relates only to those who do evil out of ignorance and then repent before their time runs out: [15] and it is they unto whom God will turn again in His mercy - for God is all-knowing, wise;

 

An-Nisa (The Women)

4:26 God wants to make [all this] clear unto you, and to guide you onto the [righteous] ways of life of those who preceded you, [35] and to turn unto you in His mercy: for God is all-knowing, wise.

 

An-Nisa (The Women)

4:147 Why would God cause you to suffer [for your past sins] if you are grateful and attain to belief - seeing that God is always responsive to gratitude, all-knowing? [160]

 

An-Nisa (The Women)

4:148 God does not like any evil to be mentioned openly, unless it be by him who has been wronged (thereby) [161] And God is indeed all-hearing, all-knowing,

 

Al-An'am (The Cattle)

6:2 He it is who has created you out of clay, and then has decreed a term [for you] - a term known [only] to him. [2] And yet you doubt –

 

Al-An'am (The Cattle)

 

 

6:59 For, with Him are the keys to the things that are beyond the reach of a created being's perception: none knows them but He. And He knows all that is on land and in the sea; and not a leaf falls but He knows it; and neither is there a grain in the earth's deep darkness, nor anything: living or dead, [49] but is recorded in [His] clear decree.

 

Al-An'am (The Cattle)

6:80 And his people argued with him. He said: "Do you argue with me about God, when it is He who has guided me? But I do not fear anything to which you ascribe divinity side by side with Him, [for no evil can befall me] unless my Sustainer so wills. [67] All things does my Sustainer embrace within His knowledge; will you not, then, keep this in mind?

 

Al-Anfal (The Spoils of War)

8:17 And yet, [O believers,] it was not you who slew the enemy, [18] but it was God who slew them; and it was not thou who cast [terror into them, O Prophet], when thou didst cast it, but it was God who cast it: [19] and [He did all this] in order that He might test the believers by a goodly test of His Own or daining. [20] Verily, God is all-hearing, all-knowing!

 

At-Tauba (The Repentance)

9:115 And God would never-after having invited them to His guidance -condemn people for going astray [150] ere He has made [entirely] clear unto them of what they should beware. Verily, God has full knowledge of everything. [151]

Al-Baqara (The Cow)

2:3 Who believe in [the existence of] that which is beyond the reach of human perception, [3] and are constant in prayer, and spend on others out of what We provide for them as sustenance; [4]

 

Al-A'raf (The Heights)

7:40 VERILY, unto those who give the lie to Our messages and scorn them in their pride, the gates of heaven shall not be opened; [31] and they shall not enter paradise any more than a twisted rope can pass through a needle's eye: [32] for thus do We requite such as are lost in sin.

 

Al-Anfal (The Spoils of War)

8:2 Believers are only they whose hearts tremble with awe whenever God is mentioned, and whose faith is strengthened whenever His messages are conveyed unto them, [3] and who in their Sustainer place their trust -

 

An-Nasr (The Help)

10:24 The parable of the life of this world is but that of rain which We send down from the sky, and which is absorbed by the plants of the earth [37] whereof men and animals draw nourishment, until -when the earth has assumed its artful adornment and has been embellished, and they who dwell on it believe that they have gained mastery over it [38] -there comes down upon it Our judgment, by night or by day, and We cause it to become [like] a field mown down, as if there had been no yesterday. [39] Thus clearly do We spell out these messages unto people who think!

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Peace gnuneo,

 

by accepting you have existence and that you have free will, it is easy to see the 'rules' for a greater god, one in which you are a component.

 

And if you don't accept that you have free will? (I.e. incompatibilism)

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Salaams

And what is the point of applying your human theories to question the Creator when you hardly know anyhing beyond what He wills to reveal to you? He made it clear that it is His will that one should worship Him alone and since He is the creator, He made it clear HOW one should worship him - so submit if you agree and if you dont agree then go your way - up to you.

Ok..so what you are saying is.."here is the deal..take it or leave it".(am I right? :D )

Because my goal is not knowing that the answer exists...but rather, I want to know what the answers is. because like i've mentioned numerous times, If people just did what they are told, no one would revert to Islam.

Observe...

pagan child: Mommy, how can our God be a squirrel named twitchy paws?

Pagan mom: what?... repent child..repent at once, for we question

not the authority of twitchy paws. His saga is beyond your tiny brains to grasp.

pagan child: : But mommy, how can uncle Tom run over a twitchy paws with his mopad?

Pagan mom: Because twitchy with all due greatness, let Tom do that...just to test our faith, and to see if people believe their eyes, or pure wisdom..the great twitchy paws can never die you see....never..............NEVE

.

pagan child: : but mommy...

Pagan mom: Smack!...here is the answer to all your questions, you demonic child, now go about your business little Socrates.

 

The end :D

Also...

I respect Quotes from Quran...but to list them without explaining their relevance to the topic :D ...They just take up space that way.

Peace

Edited by llogical

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Salaams

Peace gnuneo,

And if you don't accept that you have free will? (I.e. incompatibilism)

Don't mind the interjection ...but you are the second person mentioning freewill on this thread....so i'm going to open a thread.

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.gawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showtopic=34969&hl="]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.gawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showtopic=34969&hl=[/url]

 

See you there. :D

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okay then, now lets say for a second that the big bang theory is true, but before there was a big bang what was there?

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God is One! God is True! :D

 

Mathematics:

 

1*1=1 Allah is One

it's sad what passes amongst the religious these days as valid proofs of god. aren't there any intelligent religious ppl that are gonna call him on stuff like this?

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salaams

okay then, now lets say for a second that the big bang theory is true, but before there was a big bang what was there?

The smart answer: Perhaps the same thing that was there before God :D

The more humble one: No one Knows........YEt.

Peace

Edited by llogical

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it's sad what passes amongst the religious these days as valid proofs of god. aren't there any intelligent religious ppl that are gonna call him on stuff like this?

LOL...Be easy..I think that Letzebuerg just reverted on I.F. recently.

I don't know how to defend his logic though :D

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I am One! God is One! God is True! yes.gif

 

Mathematics:

 

1*1=1 God is One! But I am One! Therefore I am God!

 

I have proven that I am God!

 

some of these posts leave me very frustrated....these ARE adults on the forum right? educated ones I hope?

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Mathematics:

 

1*1=1 God is One! But I am One! Therefore I am God!

 

I have proven that I am God!

Let's take it one equation at a time ..shall we :D

Sooo, any more thoughts.......any one ? :D

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I'd say your best bet of finding a proof of gods existence is one that doesn't come from religious people who rely on faith. A man who believes in god without relying on faith would have much more intellectually stimulating things to say.

Edited by 3dshocker

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I'd say your best bet of finding a proof of gods existence is one that doesn't come from religious people who rely on faith. A man who believes in god without relying on faith would have much more intellectually stimulating things to say.

True..but If I wanted true stimulation, I would have joined the philosophy Blog. :D

I just want to know why 3/4 of the world believes on an entity, who's existance can't be

proved logically...and who's Non existance can't be refuted. How can there be so many

"dumb" people in this world :D ..something doesn't add up.

If I am wrong then I will tell God to hold every person on this blog responsible for being stingy with their knowledge and not showing me the light :D ( watch this work like a charm :D )

Peace

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I don't beleive 3/4 of the world are 'dumb' n i dont think you do either. Perhaps a logical proof is not the way to find God. Logic will tell you that everything around you is a creation, therefore there is a Creator. Everything around you has design - so there must be a Designer. Although this isnt the logical proof you are looking for, combined with other types of proofs the existence of God becomes logical. I think what I'm getting at is you're ignoring the deeper spiritual side of things. Finding an 'entity' or 'The Entity' is part of our fitrah. That's y ur on this blog!

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Greetings llogical

Being one of those 'dumb' people, as you call us :D , allow me to ask you: why do you want to prove it logically in the first place?

 

Do you think everything can be proven logically? if you do, think again.

Take yourself for example, you consist of body parts, and a soul that makes those parts in a living state. Take away the soul, and you turn into a piece of meat and bones. They can view and subject your body parts to full examination, as in morgues, but they can't do so when it comes to your soul, where did it go? more so, where did it come from in th first place?, what is it made of? We Muslims know the answer, but that's another story.

 

There are stuff that goes far beyond our tools of logic. Logic has elements that we know of and use in our quest. These elements fail us when we examine something beyond our limits of knowledge.

 

Its not right to think by logic all the time. Its so tiring. Its as if you took it on yourself to be responsible for proving the whole universe. Take it easy man. There is a God, some call it 'nature', some call it 'science' and some call it God. We call Him 'Allah'. The name makes no big difference. Something created this universe, and that something is our God, yours and mine and everyone's. Whether you realize Him or not is your own choice.

He takes care of you, and of everything in this universe, so play it cool, and depend on Him. It makes a world of difference when you realize that someone is taking care of you. And its not just anyone, its your Creator. And He asks nothing of you, except to submit to him, and be good.

 

Very simple.

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If I am wrong then I will tell God to hold every person on this blog responsible for being stingy with their knowledge and not showing me the light :D ( watch this work like a charm :D )

Peace

 

Peace llogical!

 

:D Blame it on somebody else. You have been on a Islamic site for ages, have posted more than 1500 times, read God knows how many posts containing Islamic knowledge about the Creator, His Books, His Prophets and Messengers, His ANgels, the Day of Judgement, etc. You deny all this and say that we have been stingy? Tell you what. Tonight, before goingto sleep, believe for a few momentsthat there is a Creator, and ask Him sincerely to guide you. Really guide you. I am sure, if you are sincere, you will see the truth, and will believe what your limited logic cannot see.

 

Peace out

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Salaams

I don't beleive 3/4 of the world are 'dumb' n i dont think you do either. Perhaps a logical proof is not the way to find God.

Hey what u know..u r a n00b :D ..(just kidding).

The design--> designer thing has been brough up a gazillion times and is self refuting (bcaz who designed the designer?).The spiritual thing...hower got me all ears :D ..now how do I do that..( I mean how do I summon my spiritual side to understand this? :D )

 

Being one of those 'dumb' people, as you call us , allow me to ask you: why do you want to prove it logically in the first place?

I think U picked up the touch of Irony there :D ...but Just For the record...my implication was that 3/4 of the World can't be Dumb ( or So I would suppose)

 

Do you think everything can be proven logically? if you do, think again.

Take yourself for example, you consist of body parts, and a soul that makes those parts in a living state. Take away the soul, and you turn into a piece of meat and bones

But what other way is there to define things other then logic? :D

So how do things make it into our cognition?...

Spekaing for myself, Let me take u inside my head :D ( plz don't break things and don't be alramed if u find things out of order...bcaz that's normal :D )

 

We can understand things through:

1- empirical senses ( mainly the 5 senses)

2-Sixth sense, ESP or hunches etc.

3-Rationale ..or Logic

 

NowI say to myself (figuratively speaking ofcource) which one..or which combination is more reliable.

Empirical senses?

NO bcaz God exists outside their reach

Hows About ESP or hunches then?

No bcaz hunches and ESP are unpredicatble/unreliable

and the reason why some people pray to rabbits.

So that leaves us with rationale only.

 

Take away the soul, and you turn into a piece of meat and bones. They can view and subject your body parts to full examination, as in morgues, but they can't do so when it comes to your soul, where did it go? more so, where did it come from in th first place?,

But I don't even know if a soul exist?

Because the people who are in Coma, they have a soul right? Bcaz some do come back... but they are like meat and bones while in Coma :D ..So maybe no one can find soul it bcaz it doesn't exist..Again, How can I tell without having to rely on logic?

 

Different religions have different takes on this an so many other things, So how do I decide?

I thought it made sense to start at the bottom...Start with God? Fine... but there is a logical contradiction in the portrayed schema of God..so how can I continue until some one explains that? I mean I have one life to spare, it's only fair I ask for rationale before submitting and all.

Peace

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We humans are limited in knowledge and understanding of things, right?

Then, how can we judge a concept that we never encountered before? Starting from nothing is a concept beyond our brain's limited ability to imagine.

 

However, there are ways to prove to yourself that God do exist.

Take the Quran, for example. Get a copy of this ebook: (www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.gawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showtopic=7165"]it is truth[/url]. Read about some of the (www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.gawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/show.php/showtopic/31684/"]scientific wonders[/url] in it. Pure scientific facts that we knew of only recently, yet was reveled to prophet Muhammad in the Quran 1400 years ago.

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However, there are ways to prove to yourself that God do exist.

Take the Quran, for example. Get a copy of this ebook: (www.)"http://gawaher/index.php?showtopic=7165"]it is truth[/url]. Read about some of the (www.)"http://gawaher/show.php/showtopic/31684/"]scientific wonders[/url] in it. Pure scientific facts that we knew of only recently, yet was reveled to prophet Muhammad in the Quran 1400 years ago.

 

Yeah that's baloney, there are no scientific wonders in the Quran which are specific enough to be considered predictions. I am open if you have any interesting ones, but I've seen the video about the orbits and stuff. That was funny...

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Salaams

Peace llogical!

Tell you what. Tonight, before goingto sleep, believe for a few momentsthat there is a Creator, and ask Him sincerely to guide you. Really guide you. I am sure, if you are sincere, you will see the truth, and will believe what your limited logic cannot see.

I've tried it b4..but followed your advice anyways....No luck, All I got was a nightmare :D ...Now what?

 

We humans are limited in knowledge and understanding of things, right?

Then, how can we judge a concept that we never encountered before? Starting from nothing is a concept beyond our brain's limited ability to imagine.

True...but right here, I am not asking where and how God came from.

( not here at least :D )

Rather what I am asking is that theologists assign certain attributes to God.

He is powreful, all knowing and merciful.

What I am trying to show here is that the presence of all three qualities present s a logical contradiction. That's teh whole purpose of the function I drew :D Bcaz If there is no way out then I can't progress.

I know what you mean by limited knowledge, but, there MUST be a way for us to distinguish facts from fiction. Because again, If the next guys can tell me that the Magic dragon created the universe and I would have no way of knowing If I can't apply intellect.

Belief alone is very dangerous and logic doesn't work then what other way is there?

 

(P.S thanx for the file, I will go over the whole thing by end of this week :D)

 

Peace

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I'm sure you've gone over the works of hume and come to the realization that we can't really know anything? Aside from our own vague existence anyway.

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