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iftikharalam

Some Questions For Non Muslims Who Claims That Islam Spread

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Asalam Alikum,

 

 

1. What is your view about the muslims in indonesia ( The largest muslim population) ,Malaysia, Brunei,Thailand,Phillipines? Quote me one war that Muslims launched against these countries.

 

2. Why there is still Hindu Majority in subcontinent, despite the dact that it was under control of Muslims for 800 years.

 

3. And above all, How did Mongols become muslims when they were the one who were victorious, and one who destroyed almost 90% of the muslim world in 13th century.. How can Muslims make them convert with sword when they were defeated?

 

4. What did Christians did with the local people in jerusalem after capturing it in first crusade? and what Muslims did when they retook Jeruselam after 100 years?

 

5. What did Prophet Muhammad SAW did with His enemies when Muslims entered Makkah?

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I don't need a source; It is common knowledge that Islamic governance was often spread by the sword and sometimes Islam has been spread by coersion. But I also know that Islam has done a very good job of adhering to "there is no compulsion in religion", so it isn't the rule.

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Although Islam was spread by the sword (in the sense that it was Muslim rule and conquest that helped spread it), that does not mean that there are not exceptions.

 

You had a Muslims minority that conquered, militarily, a large chunk of the world. They then put in place laws that favored Muslims. For example, Muslims were not allowed to be slaves, but non-Muslims often were. If a slave wanted to be free they often would convert.

 

If a non-Muslim wanted to pay less taxes, all they had to do was convert to Islam.

 

A non-Muslim was encouraged to convert to Islam. If someone converted from Islam to another religion he faced persecution by the state.

 

So while there may have been little compulsion in religion, there was quite a bit of coercion in religion in Muslim nations.

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Although Islam was spread by the sword (in the sense that it was Muslim rule and conquest that helped spread it), that does not mean that there are not exceptions.

 

You had a Muslims minority that conquered, militarily, a large chunk of the world. They then put in place laws that favored Muslims. For example, Muslims were not allowed to be slaves, but non-Muslims often were. If a slave wanted to be free they often would convert.

 

If a non-Muslim wanted to pay less taxes, all they had to do was convert to Islam.

 

A non-Muslim was encouraged to convert to Islam. If someone converted from Islam to another religion he faced persecution by the state.

 

So while there may have been little compulsion in religion, there was quite a bit of coercion in religion in Muslim nations.

You are wrong when you say that Islam spread by sword, and an example from History, recorded history refute all of your claims, and it is " Islam in South east Asia" , The country with most number of muslims, so if people can convert to Islam in south east Asia didn't require the reasons you mentioned for conversion to Islam, so why rest want these reasons for their conversion, I don't know what is your thinking, on one hand we have a example that people convert by their choice, and example of Mongols also refute your accusations, as at the time of their conversion , they were rulers, so History and logic, both refute your accusations.

Now, actually, it was not your reasons that make half of the world muslim so fast, it was the movement of enlightement, it was movement of "new Thinking", that spread so fast, It was byzantines and persians who were capturing each other terroteries, and when they capture one , the result id destruction, but when People of Africa, persia and byzantine met with people , who when enetered into thier land, don't kill men, don't burn crops, don't run into their houses, don't rape their women, than it wa a totaly new thing, they carry new ideas. Infact, it is your own western historians who claimed that when Islam was prevailing in every field of life , rest of the world was living in dark ages. Islam was enlighement, a movement of new ideas, that humanity require that time, the new ideas , the theory that can provide peace to them, the idea of equality in that unjust world, it was perfectly alright to believe that Islam was choice of the people of that time, because they don't have anything better to believe. If Islam says that worship only one GOD, love your Parents, be good with your neighbours, help poor people, don't kill your girls( common practice of that time), give woman equal right(just search about the condition of women before Islam) than only the ignorant can stay on their course.

Now second reason, most of the arab world ,north africa and persia were idol worshiper and persia with people who think Fire is God, so these believes making no sense to people when collide with the solid, beautiful, logical, and complete systematic ideology of Islam, than it just fallen apart, only Judaisem, and christanity survived in the war of ideas because they have something at their back, both have books by God, and proper ideology, but Fire as god, and idols as God, no proper ideology,than how can it stand in front of Islam, a complete system.

 

Now, if we see your claims, we know that christanity and judaisem lived along muslims throughout 1400 years, still they are living with muslims in Islamic countries, but idol worshipping and fire worshipping just vanished, so are you saying that your claims only applied for these two, and not for Christians and Jews? if it applied on both than why christian and jews are still there but not others? Livius, you keep on reapeating same thing again and again when history and logic proves you wrong, Islam in south east Asia, Muslim rule in India, Sullahudin coming back to Jeruslam, Conversion of Mongols to Islam, Islam in Central Asia are not EXCEPTIONS, these are the Major events In Islamic history.

I know it is hard to believe that People embrace Islam by choice, but it is true, and conversions, and converted muslims from present world are living examples of this.

 

So in anut shell, Islam spread because it was the most enlighted thought (And still is) of that time, it appealed to people, Major religions of that area, idol worshipping and fire worshiping, just collapse against the strong Islamic ideology, The teachings of love and Peace make sense for the people, the change of attitude of the Muslim Army, than Persian, or byzantine Army amazed people, it was new thing, making sense, very natural, enlightened, and easy to follow.

 

May Allah SWT increase our knowledge. AMIN.

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I can just turn into

is the fact that I didn't murder the nieghbour on my left proof that I murder the neighbour on my right?"

 

I Think We are disscussing something about false and ignorant accussations against Islam, with the help of logic and references from history here...

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You're trying to say that because the spread of Islam was peaceful in Indonesia, that proves it was peaceful everywhere else. I have given you two analogies that show why your logic is flawed.

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You're trying to say that because the spread of Islam was peaceful in Indonesia, that proves it was peaceful everywhere else. I have given you two analogies that show why your logic is flawed.

 

Hopefully he can understand your analogy and why it is irrelevant that many choose to convert to Islam of their own choice. For every hundred people that converts willingly there are surely a substancial number in the past who have done so because of social and economic pressures.

 

Also when everbody around you is Muslim, then the human instinct is to go with the herd.

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You're trying to say that because the spread of Islam was peaceful in Indonesia, that proves it was peaceful everywhere else. I have given you two analogies that show why your logic is flawed.

No, I am not saying ONLY this, i don't think you read my long post in reply of livius.

 

So you are saying that Islam can be spread in indonesia without sword and it cannot anywhere else? is this what you want to say?

If Islam can spread without sword in Indonesia than why not others, just a question, anyway, I posted 5 different scenarios, and than I posted a long post about the reasons for bulk conversions, and you are quoting only One example of Indonesia, even in this case, Why do you think that Islam cannot spread without Sword anywhere else than "south east Asia" (Not only indonesia, but whole malaysia, brunie, parts of Thailand and phillipines")

 

Also when everbody around you is Muslim, then the human instinct is to go with the herd.

 

very right, but what is the point, so you are neglecting that Islam spread through sword. Anyway, I 100% agree with you, there were such conversions in Past, that people become muslims when they see others around them converting to Islam.

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Assalam Alaikum

 

Yah! this topic has been discussed in other Threads also..

 

Anyways, very informative thread.. Jazaak Allah Khair for sharing this :D

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This is just odd. Even buddhism was and is spread by force in some cases. There are always fanatics and zealots. Of course some of Islam was spread by force.

 

And, BTW, why are there still hindus in india? if Islam is so great, why didn't they all convert? do you think they just haven't heard about it? trust me, we're all just completely sick of hearing about it. i've had christianty presented to me in dozens of ways, and i've always rejected it. i read the qu'ran long before becoming a buddhist, and rejected that.

 

there are people who just WILL NOT convert to Islam. we'd rather die. if your theology is so utterly perfect, then you need do nothing to spread it. this is the way buddhists think - we are absolutely FORBIDDEN to convert or try to convert others (though it does happen, it's not supposed to happen).

 

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda or even education. However, through compassionate dialogue, help others renounce fanaticism and narrowness" -Thich Nhat Hahn

 

Now, who does a non-muslim want for a neighbor, a muslim or a buddhist?

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:D/Peace To All

 

This is not a political topic. It's new location will be in the "Islamic-Western Dialogue."

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And, BTW, why are there still hindus in india? if Islam is so great, why didn't they all convert? do you think they just haven't heard about it? trust me, we're all just completely sick of hearing about it. i've had christianty presented to me in dozens of ways, and i've always rejected it. i read the qu'ran long before becoming a buddhist, and rejected that.

 

Reading the Quran is not the only thing that should be done but you should also understand it :D

 

The point to note is that Islam cannot be spread by force as all muslims believe that Allah :D guides who he wills so no sensible muslim would try to impose Islam by force and neither will they try to convert anyone by force.

 

Wa'ssalaam

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:D

 

Sheikh Ahmed Deedat had some pretty good points to make on this topic. You guys can check it out on Youtube. It was very interesting indeed. :D

 

:D

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Islam was spread "peacefully" in some places, by the sword in others. Why do people argue this?

 

I live in a part of the world (near Nice, southern France) that was at the receiving hand of the so called "sword".

 

The coastal strip from Spain to Italy was regularly raided by Arab Muslim warriors (Saracens/Moors/Pirates) for over 600 years and the cruelty is still present in the memory of many people.

 

Having said that, people of the Old belief (not completely disappeared) were persecuted also by Pope Innocent III who actually called a Crusade against our people: the Albigensian Crusade remembered to this day because the leader of the Holy Army, an Abbott, when reminded of the fact that in the battle he would also have killed Christians he gave the order: "Kill them all, God will know his own."

From 1208, forty years of war was waged against the indigenous population. During this period an estimated 500,000 Languedoc men women and children were massacred - Catholics as well as Cathars. The locals and their allies were dispossessed and humiliated, and their lands annexed to France.

 

The language of the sword in those days was a fairly common interaction and I too do not understand why people argue this.

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From 1208, forty years of war was waged against the indigenous population. During this period an estimated 500,000 Languedoc men women and children were massacred - Catholics as well as Cathars. The locals and their allies were dispossessed and humiliated, and their lands annexed to France.

 

The language of the sword in those days was a fairly common interaction and I too do not understand why people argue this.

:D/Peace To All

 

Weren't the Merovingians also Cathars?

 

So you are a descendant of the Cathars?

 

Welcome to the community :D

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and arab moslem's also invaded southern africa and took many thousands of slaves for centuries. This is a historic fact.

 

i think some idealogues wish that the history of the movement they belong to was whiter than the whitest rose, but until they accept that the movement is composed of people and people are often brutal, stupid and ignorant, no matter what movement they claim to belong to, then theyre simply not going to understand the true nature of history.

 

as tantric said:

 

This is just odd. Even buddhism was and is spread by force in some cases. There are always fanatics and zealots. Of course some of Islam was spread by force.

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The point to note is that Islam cannot be spread by force as all muslims believe that Allah sw.gif guides who he wills so no sensible muslim would try to impose Islam by force and neither will they try to convert anyone by force.

 

 

You are right, however in the past there were many exceptions where muslims would go and invade and conquer and subdue non-muslim tribes/nations which did not want to go to war with muslims. They were given 3 choices: Convert, pay jizya or face War.

 

Why do my fellow muslims fail to understand this? This is the reason non-muslims see Islam in a bad light.

 

 

Peace

Edited by anthony19832005

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