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greeneydgirl

Australian Outcry Over Muslim Cleric's Comments

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Good afternoon/morning to all (g'day),

 

Yesterday there was Australian public outcry over comments made by cleric Sheik Taj Din al-Hilali (sik?) in a sermon performed a month ago. In the sermon the cleric referred to uncovered women as 'pieces of meat' and then suggested that they were partly to blame for being raped (2000 sydney rapes).

 

(www.)"http://theaustralian.news#####.au/story/0,20867,20646437-601,00.html"]theaustralian.news

#####.au/story...437-601,00.html[/url]

 

Australia is in uproar over his comments, many people at my school were discussing the issue today. People are demanding that the cleric be deported, or at least apprehended for his comments.

 

My questions in regards to this issue include:

 

1) Do you agree or disagree with his comments?

2) Do you think they are out of line?

3) Should the muslim community make more of an effort to 'fit in' whilst living in Australia?

4) Are muslim women punished for being raped under Islamic law (cant remember the name for it)? (eg. are they believed to be as responsible as the male?)

5) Finally, do you believe Australia's repsonse is reasonable to the comments made?

 

I would appreciate any feedback on this issue and I hope it has not already been discussed somewhere else (I looked through the forum to see if there was already a topic on the issue).

 

- Greeneydgirl

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I saw a news report which said that most Australian Muslims were shocked by his comments. Didn't his own Masjid eventually suspend him?

 

Anyway, let the Muslims have their say...

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1) Do you agree or disagree with his comments?

 

Partly, I think its more likely for any female not just a muslim who is dressed inappropriately to be attacked, or to be seen by her attacker as "asking for it". But this obviously doesn’t justify such actions taking place. Nor does it mean that everybody muslim and non-muslim should be frightened into wearing the hijab.

 

2) Do you think they are out of line?

 

Well I assume it’s just his opinion. There are a lot of opinions that are out of line, such as asking a woman to remove her veil. To some it will seem out of line, to others normal its just the way in which you perceive different aspects of life.

 

3) Should the muslim community make more of an effort to 'fit in' whilst living in Australia?

 

I think that if a community abides by the rules of the land they shouldn’t necessarily be forced to fit into what that particular country assumes to be "normal". Again its a matter of understanding what is normal for some and what isn’t for others.

 

4) Are muslim women punished for being raped under Islamic law (cant remember the name for it)? (eg. are they believed to be as responsible as the male?)

 

No. In fact i think the perpetrator gets a death penalty for rape.

 

5) Finally, do you believe Australia's response is reasonable to the comments made?

 

I don’t really know the extent of Australia's response. I heard that the Prime Minister refuted the comments, which I think is a bit much given the fact that its not a particular dogma, just someone’s opinion. Just as Jack Straws comments were his opinion, and the muslim community didn’t need to get up in arms concerning them.

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Its really a bad display of a countrys intelligence, when they are unable to tolerate or understand a metaphor that is not religously offensive to them or is not racists, but is acutally used by some of their own conservative thinkers too.

 

Sad.

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:D / Greetings to All

 

The "meat analogy" is questionable and controversial, only Allah knows what his intentions were. Either way, although I knew what he was trying to convey, it was a bad choice of words, and it was tactless...

 

His statements about rape and women are not accurate...

 

His past statements condoning terrorist attacks are also definitely not in line with Islamic teachings...

 

Just clarifying...Who put this guy in charge of the matters of Australian Muslims anyway? What are his credentials? Was he chosen by John Howard, the Australian PM or by the Australian Muslim community themselves?

 

:D / Peace

Edited by freedslave

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He was chosen by, according to my source, "Australia's top Islamic body". I don't believe the Australian government has a hand in selecting any religious leaders.

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It seems to be pretty common for Muslims to call Westerners meat/pigs/etc, very common. This isn't surprising. Though, I wonder why the guy lives in Australia if he finds what Australian women do so offensive.

 

Should he be deported? No. He should voluntarily leave. He obviously hates what Australia stands for.

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1) Do you agree or disagree with his comments? I agree

 

2) Do you think they are out of line? No. It's the truth. I know many non-muslim that beleive a woman can be partly to blame for being raped. Each rape case is of course differeent. Personally, I think that a woman who goes to nightclubs scantily-dressed is looking for the wrong attention. However, if a school girl wearing a mini-skirt is on her way to school and she's raped. The girl can in no way be blamed.

 

3) Should the muslim community make more of an effort to 'fit in' whilst living in Australia? "Fit-in"? What do you mean by that? What constitutes as fitting-in?

 

4) Are muslim women punished for being raped under Islamic law (cant remember the name for it)? (eg. are they believed to be as responsible as the male?) No! Actually the rapist is killed, under Islamic law. Islam hold women in high esteem.You know how precious jewels are covered in fabric and not left laying around? Well Islam sees women as jewels that need to be covered up.

 

5) Finally, do you believe Australia's repsonse is reasonable to the

comments made? NO

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as a moderate, i was disgusted by these comments.

 

I don't care what a woman is wearing, where she is, she can be entirely nude upon a beach and it does not in the slightest justify her being attacked. Not in the smallest, eeniest little bit.

 

there was a british judge many years ago who also uttered some stupidity along these lines, with women wearing shirt skirts "asking for it", and IMHO he should have been immediately dismissed from the Bench, and quite possibly prosecuted under "language intended to inflame illegal actions" laws.

 

we are no longer living in medieval times where men are considered beasts to their passions, and women as property that has no rights and must be aware that men are insensate beasts - we are living in modern times, and men must realise they are no longer free to do to women as they wish. Comments like this belong in the Dark Ages, and that is a message that must be sent.

 

the pope was forced to apologise for his recent medieval comments, and i see no reason why this guy should be spared this punishment.

 

if i were the australian govt, then i would demand this supposed 'leader' goes on TV and either finds passages in the Qoran that supports the right of women to wear whatever they wish without fear of molestation, and that goes for ALL women or non-moslem, moslem, or else he should admit that such beleifs have no place in a modern western society - IN PUBLIC. If he refuses to do this, then he should be expelled.

 

Frankly, i don't think that many moslem's in australia would be entirely unhappy with this, it is wahhabist sponsored extremism like this that is giving Islam, which has no inherent bias towards this, a severely bad name.

 

 

every rape in australia now by moslem youths will be blamed upon Islam, when the fact is sociopathic behaviour amongst young men is the same across the board, race, colour or creed notwithstanding - and this needs emphasing, if necessary by the Islamic community disavowing this guy.

 

i strongly hope the british public also uses their power to remove blair and his bunch of happy civil rights removers from power as well, in an equal reaction to *their* rejection of the principle of tolerance and free speech and dress, its a shame we can't expell them, preferably unarmed into the middle of fallujah.

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In my opinion:

 

1) Do you agree or disagree with his comments?

I agree with his comments.

 

 

 

2) Do you think they are out of line?

No.

 

 

 

3) Should the muslim community make more of an effort to 'fit in' whilst living in Australia?

No.

 

 

 

4) Are muslim women punished for being raped under Islamic law (cant remember the name for it)? (eg. are they believed to be as responsible as the male?)

No. The rapist is punished.

 

 

 

5) Finally, do you believe Australia's repsonse is reasonable to the comments made?

No.

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I personally don't really get what all the fuss is about. He was simply stating a line of thinking that is reasonably prevalent among most Muslims. In fact, they should be accusing him of plagiarism; the Imam at the Masjid I go to said pretty much the exact same thing no more than a week ago, I can even remember him using the meat analogy. Not that I'm agreeing with what he said (very very very much to the contrary) I just don't get why people are reacting like this to one instance of something that is going on in so many Masjid's and so many of these "scholars" head's today. Its just not news to me anymore.

 

Bottom line: a woman is NOT in any way responsible for her own harrasment. Not one little bit. It doesn't matter what she's doing, where she's doing it and what she's doing it in. She recieves no question of even a fraction of the blame.

Edited by MajidM

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1) Do you agree or disagree with his comments?

2) Do you think they are out of line?

3) Should the muslim community make more of an effort to 'fit in' whilst living in Australia?

4) Are muslim women punished for being raped under Islamic law (cant remember the name for it)? (eg. are they believed to be as responsible as the male?)

5) Finally, do you believe Australia's repsonse is reasonable to the comments made?

 

1) A similar topic has been discussed (www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.gawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?&showtopic=23934"]here[/url]. Following a l(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4453820.stm"]ink[/url] from the first page reveals a disturbing attitude towards abused women, from non-Muslims(presumably).

 

A third of people believe a woman is partially or completely responsible for being raped if she has behaved flirtatiously

 

Amnesty says the "shocking" findings show government policies are failing.

 

Combined with a high frequency of rapes in the UK and a virtually non-existant prosecution rate, it's time to stop pointing fingers and to start analyzing attitudes on a larger scale.

 

Britain ignores issues of domestic violence, abuse and rape. Even if abusers were convicted, there's no where to keep them - the prisons are all full! When Amnesty released this report, they could have used the magic word, "Muslim", to bring out the drama queens. On it's own merit, the report wasn't enough for widespread condemnation.

 

2) I've not read the speech, though I don't agree with blaming victims for being abused. Being crass and manly is ok with your mates after a pack of XXXX... but infront of a public audience with hidden journalists and spies?

 

3) Certainly. All immigrants to Australia should respect the customs of the indigenous peoples and make an effort to build relations with the aborigines.

 

4) No, a victim is a victim. Pakistan pretends to be an Islamic country and some of their laws are viewed as such, which has confused the international perception towards Islamic rape laws.

 

5) Drama queens cannot be reasoned with.

 

 

 

Australia's Islamic council should look to appoint Imams who base their sermons on Islamic teachings and not personal observations.

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Peace MahidM,

 

Is this view based on a lack of non-Muslim social knowledge among Imam's? The reason I ask is that cases of women 'scantily clad' going to a nightclub and being raped are so few and far between that they don't statistically make it any more likely that the women dressed this way will be raped over women who do not dress in this way. 97% of people who have been raped knew their assailant before the attack and the most common perpetrators of rape are husbands or partners. (www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.cer.truthaboutrape.co.uk/3.html"]Source[/url]

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habiba19, iraq11, you have both stated you agree with the comments.

 

i wonder if you would clarify for me?

 

you say that you agree that a woman's dress justifies her being attacked, so what level of dress do you think justifies it? If her hair is uncovered? If she is wearing a skirt? If her ankles are showing? If more than her eyes are showing? If she is wearing red? If she is dressed in tight clothing?

 

what level of clothing do you think a women should be wearing after which any rapist is in the wrong?

 

and if for instance you *don't* think she could be raped for showing some ankle, as for instance would be the Taliban position, then what do you think about people who are more extreme than yourself? Should their views be tolerated?

 

what i'm getting at, if a woman wants to feel completely secure, should she therefore dress in the manner that the most conservative possible element of society regards as respectable?

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Is this view based on a lack of non-Muslim social knowledge among Imam's?

 

Its based on the teachings really I think. People try and find real world examples to fit what they already believe, even when in most cases there aren't any. Instead of reassessing their mindset to fit reality they just look harder trying to find evidence to reaffirm their preconceived notions. If an example comes up that goes against what they believe they simply ignore it. Its kind of thinking that makes Muslims point fingers at rape rates in the West and virtually ignore the ones in Islamic countries. It should, of course, be the other way round but if theres one thing I've come to realize about religion its that everything is backwards and upside down. I mean what this guy said was simply a politically incorrect, non sugar coated and invariably accurate portrayal of what the religion as a whole has to say about this issue. I don't believe this is some personal opinion held by this one character and him alone. Its fairly widespread.

Edited by MajidM

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Peace

 

these were just the imams thoughts, and they were stupid but lets forget about it shall we? I have many non-muslim friends who consider women as pieces of meat and subservient to men, regardless of how they are dressed.

 

Peace

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so because you have some retarded non-moslem friends, its ok for this AUTHORITY FIGURE to say what he did?

 

i'm sure i could dredge up some idiots to support what the Pope said about Islam recently, because i can do that then his comments should be forgiven without an apology?

 

no more, i say no more.

 

 

peace and love.

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and they were stupid but lets forget about it shall we?

 

No, we shan't. Some obscure Danish paper publishes one measly cartoon and Muslim's call for death. The Pope states a dissenting opionion Muslims go on a riot. But when a Muslim cleric gives rapists a free pass and indicts and entire gender of "asking for it" in a culture that isn't his own we should just "forget about it." Given all thats happened in the past year or so the "lets all just pretend like it didn't happen" card isn't available for use anymore.

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Peace

 

so because you have some retarded non-moslem friends, its ok for this AUTHORITY FIGURE to say what he did?

 

I am currently a student at a large University and my European History Professor frequently glamourizes the Crusaders which killed tens of thousands of people in Jerusalem. He is a christian and he considers them holy warriors and I can tell from his speech that he is glad they killed many muslims.

 

For this, do I have a reason to hate all christians who say stupid ignorant things even though they might be in a place of authority?

 

Peace

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No, we shan't. Some obscure Danish paper publishes one measly cartoon and Muslim's call for death. The Pope states a dissenting opionion Muslims go on a riot. But when a Muslim cleric gives rapists a free pass and indicts and entire gender of "asking for it" in a culture that isn't his own we should just "forget about it." Given all thats happened in the past year or so the "lets all just pretend like it didn't happen" card isn't available for use anymore.

 

Brother I agree, but we should all (muslims and non-muslims) the world over give less media attention to these people (on both sides) who seek to inflame hatred and intolerance.

 

Peace

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I am currently a student at a large University and my European History Professor frequently glamourizes the Crusaders which killed tens of thousands of people in Jerusalem. He is a christian and he considers them holy warriors and I can tell from his speech that he is glad they killed many muslims.

 

For this, do I have a reason to hate all christians who say stupid ignorant things even though they might be in a place of authority?

 

hate? no.

 

i pity such fools that have lost their way. I certainly do not think they are worth emulating. They are also denying the true teachings of christ, who regarded such imperial thinking with loathing, and no doubt would reject a cretin such as this as being no better than a propagandist of Rome.

 

the advantage of free speech is that you can show how idiots like this contradict themselves - he cannot have you burned at a stake or stoned to death for contradicting him, anymore.

 

use allahs gift of wit to defeat such a man, and laugh about his stupidity - laughter is the best medicine for such as his illness, not anger. Make sure you do not fall into the same trap of 'clash of civilisations' however, else your argument becomes much weaker.

 

he is a fool, you know it, and probably so do most other students. Laugh at him, sometimes it is the hardest thing to do - that is why it is an inner jihad. Jihad is NOT the easy path.

 

 

Peace and Love.

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Peace

 

Brother, I really admire your way of thinking. You seem very unbiased and your posts are very intelligent.

 

Jihad is NOT the easy path

 

I know what you are trying to say, but I dissagree with your views on Jihad and I think we should leave it at that :-) .

 

Peace

Edited by anthony19832005

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Hi,

 

Thankyou to everyone who responded with honest opinions. Yes, some of these opinions did not agree with my own (and were sadly not surprising) but it was..interesting to gain other perspectives on the issue. So far, to my knowledge, no action has been taken against the cleric. According to Australian newspapers, he is coming to Brisbane (capital of Queensland, Australia) to attend an Islamic function.

 

- Greeneydgirl

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