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Australian Outcry Over Muslim Cleric's Comments

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1) Do you agree or disagree with his comments?
Assalam Alaikum/Peace

 

Yes, I do agree with his comments BUT still he shouldn't be so Open as he's living in Non-Islamic country.

 

And this is true, tht if girls will safeguard there Body thn there'll be less rapes etc..

 

You can compare Islamic & Non-Islamic countries for Rapes & for other crimes. You'll find tht Islamic countries are lesser in Crimes thn Non-Islamic countries.

 

Jazaak Allah Khair/Thnx

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Peace subhaanallaah,

 

Yes, I do agree with his comments BUT still he shouldn't be so Open as he's living in Non-Islamic country.

And this is true, tht if girls will safeguard there Body thn there'll be less rapes etc..

You can compare Islamic & Non-Islamic countries for Rapes & for other crimes. You'll find tht Islamic countries are lesser in Crimes thn Non-Islamic countries.

 

It's an odd occasion that I disagree with absolutely everything somebody else says but you've proven the exception! :D

 

I think it's much better that he has come out and aired his opinion rather than hiding behind some mask of good community relations when in secret riling against what he publically pretends to tolerate. Granted it was offensive for him to say what he did, but not because it's insulting to non-Muslim's but because it's insulting to all the people who've dedicated years of their lives to researching the nature and causes of sexual abuse.

 

I'll start at the beginning here, and in large part I'm sure I'm preaching to the converted however it is apparent that there are still many people living in Western nations who are not familiar with either the facts or the reasoning which accompanies those facts.

 

Contrary to popular myth, (or what used to be a popular myth though some obviously still fall foul of it) rape is not something which generally occurs down a back alley at night involving some crazed psycho. Indeed the number of occasions where strangers are involved is far less statistically significant (3% - 8%) than other forms of rape. By far the single largest group of people named as culprits of rape are husbands and long term partners. (45%+) You might wish to note that in 'Islamic' countries there is no Spousal Rape crime as sex is considered a mans 'right' with his wife. The complete myth among some Muslim's that rape rates are higher in Western nations than 'Islamic' ones is partly down to this distinction. Though off topic it might be pertinent for people who hold such a high opinion of 'Islamic' countries to do some research into Western definitions of rape, they might also want to consider that in most if not all Islamic countries victims of rape are punished socially for coming forward - particularly if they lost their virginity in the process - with the possibility of being stoned to death for being adulteresses if they lose the case. It should also be noted that the next most likely group of assailants are close family members of the victim. Given the closed society nature of the Arab world good luck to any Arab women who want to come forward to accuse their uncle. Western countries have support networks, professional counsellors to help the victims of rape provided by the police and what's more and perhaps most telling: Western countries take their statistics of sexual abuse from completely anonymous and totally representative surveys of women. 'Islamic' countries take theirs from those reported to the police. To claim that 'rape rates' are lower in the Islamic world than the Western world in light of the above knowledge is to be foolish. There can be no fair comparison. While Western women may go out and drink themselves to oblivion and women in the Islamic world do not, Western families do not hire women from the developing world, take their passports and lock them in the house all day at the mercy of their patrons moral conscience. Likewise it is not customary for non-Muslim's in the West for parents to arrange marriages for their children, with the significant minority of cases classed as 'forced marriages' where the unlucky bride is put under excessive pressure or tricked into marrying somebody they would not consent to of their volition. In the West the consumation of these marriages is considered rape, in 'Islamic' countries the law is rather more ambiguous. I hope subhaanallaah that in light of the above you might be prepared to modify your opinion somewhat.

 

However I've digressed slightly from the topic at hand. This Imam thinks that women are partially to blame for being raped if they are wearing skimpy clothing. This forum's favourite method of proving somebody wrong is to show a hypocrisy so that's the route I'll go down. Here's the logical progression.

 

1. The Imam relies on the claim that women are more likely to be raped if they dress 'immodestly'. (I've seen no evidence of this but for the sake of argument I'll accept it.)

2. The Imam claims women are therefore partially to blame for their own rape should they be dressing immodestly.

3. The Imam must also accept that statistically women are far more likely to be raped if they get married. (British Crime Survey 1998-2000)

4. The Imam must then also claim that women who get married are partially to blame for getting raped.

 

Let's not also forget that those people who get mown down by speeding drunk drivers are also "partially to blame" for crossing the road, nevermind the children who get abused being "partially to blame" for stepping outside the front door and of course the Palestinian's who are "partially to blame" for their own deaths after looking at an israeli tank.

 

Of course the above were uttered completely sarcastically, however they make a point. There is a gaping difference between establishing a causal factor of an event and ascribing a degree of 'blame'. If there is any link between the way in which a woman dresses and her likelihood of being raped (and even on that I'm very skeptical given the circumstances rape normally occurs in) then the blame in no way lies with the woman. It is the result of the highest degree of ethno-centricity for this Imam to think otherwise.

 

Sources:

 

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/r159.pdf"]Findings from the British Crime Survey (1998/2000)[/url]

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_en.wikipedia(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/wiki/Spousal_rape"]Wikipedia entry: Spousal Rape[/url]

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2001/nea/8296.htm"]US Department of State entry for Saudi Arabia[/url]

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:bows to eoin:

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:bows to eoin:

 

 

....

 

This is why I fear the Islamicization of my society more and more everyday. The fact that a high-profile spiritual leader can say these things and get away with it, the fact that enough muslims agree with him to keep him saying it, the fact that some of you are twisted enough to be offended when we say that we don't want any of that garbage in our society.... that brings the bile to the back of my throat and a clench to my fist.

 

This is disgusting, vile, dangerous and unacceptable. Men like this are the same as the Nazi's and the Blackshirts. They need to be shut down NOW, with as much mercy as you'd extend to a rabid dog, so we don't have to fight them later, when they are stronger and better established. It seems like Fascism has simply traded its Jackboots for Jihad, and rises again from the grave.

 

 

I thank the moderate muslims for abstaining from this idiotic doctrine, and I fully realize that this is not a mindset shared by all muslims. I fear though, that the moderates aren't numerous or strong enough to keep this Beast on the leash, or better yet, Kill it.

 

Death before Dhimmitude,

Lee

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Before this discussion carries on, read Sheikh Taj's Official Press Release

 

Explanatory Statement by the Mufti Al-Hilaly

Regarding the Recent Media Campaign

I would like to outline clearly and plainly some of the facts and basics that formulate my faith, belief and my understanding of the teachings of the true religion of Islam:

 

1-The crime of rape against any woman is an abominable crime; it has no justification, and the perpetrator deserves the severest punishment and would not deserve to belong to a religion or to humanity.

 

2-Women in Australia or any other western society are free to wear what they like, and no Muslim has the right to dictate the rulings of his religion on others. While non-Muslim women can cover or reveal whatever they choose of their bodies, Islamic Shari’a made it incumbent upon Muslim men to lower their gaze. It is prohibited for them to stare at the beauty of strange women.

 

3- It is my duty as a religious leader to advise Muslim women to adhere to and abide by the Islamic dress code. Having said that, Muslim women are free to comply with or reject my advice, and their reckoning will be with Allah the Almighty.

 

4-By saying the “exposed meat†displayed in a degrading way is a simile for a woman, making herself subject to abuse by men with diseased souls whose animalistic instincts will overcome them whereby they would abandon their humanity, mind and religion. These men are responsible for their crime.

 

5-The metaphor I used of the “exposed meat†was not appropriate for the western mentality. It has been quoted and misinterpreted by some groups with ill intentions. This metaphor was used in a private lesson given inside the Masjid after the Taraweeh (optional night) prayers on the fourth day of Ramadan. It was meant for the Muslim attendees at the Masjid and not the general public and particularly not the general women of our Australian society.

 

Apart from the above-mentioned facts, I would like to make it known to all my brothers and sisters in and out of Australia that:

 

After the Taraweeh (optional night) prayers on 27/09/2006, at the Lakemba Masjid in Sydney, Australia, I gave a lesson to the members of the Islamic community of Australia, the title of which was: “Why did Allah, the Almighty, mention ‘man’ before ‘woman’ in the crime of theft? as is quoted in the Quran: {[As for] the thief, the male and the female, …} [Al-Ma’idah 5.38] while He mentioned ‘woman’ before ‘man’ in the crime of adultery?, as is quoted in the Quran: {The woman and the man found guilty of adultery or fornication, …} [An-Nur 24.2]â€.

 

This lesson lasted approximately 15 minutes; 10 minutes of these were spent on explaining the meaning of the first verse, and the remaining time was spent on giving advice and guidance relating to the way a woman dresses and the methods of seduction and the beauty given to her by the Almighty Allah. I emphasised that exceeding the limits in this regard is dangerous to both men and women; and that the devil exploits these charms of seduction to tempt both men and women to commit adultery and fornication. In this case, both men and women are committing a sin. So the topic did not deal with the crime of rape.

 

At the end of the lesson when I was explaining the reason why ‘woman’ was mentioned before ‘man’ in the verse dealing with the crime of adultery, I said it was because she possessed the charm, the methods of seduction and all similar devices given to her by Allah to tempt the man. For that I borrowed a metaphor used by an author called Ar-Rifa’i. He said exposing the meat in an illicit way would encourage the cats to devour it. I didn’t mean by that to humiliate the immodest women; I meant to censure the person who would abandon his humanity and turn into a vicious animal; and there’s a big difference between a cat’s behaviour and that of a human’s, as the latter is commanded and responsible for their actions.

 

I confess that this analogy is inappropriate and unacceptable for the Australian society and the western society in general.

 

I am deeply saddened and distressed by the acts of some devious groups which lurk in the dark watching me, and who cannot tolerate the moderate balanced way which I adopt to advocate for women’s issues, national harmony and co-existence, and to hold fast to the love of our Australian home, to protect it from all forms of extreme thoughts and to reject all acts of violence and any act that breaches the rule of law.

 

Yes, I feel deeply saddened that such an ordinary lesson has been used to slander and defame me after it had been translated with the ill intention of a dubious media that wishes to incite and they present an unfair campaign, the aims of which are very well known.

 

Once again, I turn to all the women of Australia and the world. You are the shining lights of the world, you are more than half of the society, and you are the daughters, the sisters, the mothers and the aunts. How could any sane person think of humiliating you?

 

You are the cherished pearls, the dearest thing in the world. So don’t be taken as offerings at the temples of the merchants of pleasure, or advocates of decadence and corruption.

 

Each one of us is responsible for accounting for his or her own actions before he or she is asked about them by the almighty Allah (on the Day of Judgment). Once again I am very sorry and apologize for what resulted from an unintentional analogy.

 

With all my respect to the women of the world.

 

In due course I will take the necessary decision that shall lift the pressures that have been placed on our Australian Muslim community and that which will benefit all Australians.

 

The pressure of the last couple of days has had an obvious effect on my health and well-being. I ask the public to give my family and I some privacy, time and space to recover. I have also asked for indefinite leave from my duties at Lakemba Masjid.

 

Sincerely

 

Sheikh Taj El-Deen El-Hilali

Mufti Of Australia

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1) Do you agree or disagree with his comments? I agree

Why?

 

2) Do you think they are out of line? No. It's the truth. I know many non-muslim that beleive a woman can be partly to blame for being raped. Each rape case is of course differeent. Personally, I think that a woman who goes to nightclubs scantily-dressed is looking for the wrong attention. However, if a school girl wearing a mini-skirt is on her way to school and she's raped. The girl can in no way be blamed.

In a way, the school-girl can be "blamed": victims to rapes are usually women that look weak, or helpless. A self-confident "scantily-dressed" women is safer than a "correct dressed" shy girl that obviously has no means to defend herself.

 

Any thought the victim is guilty is nonsense. No man is under obligation to rape a woman when he sees a naked one, unless he is rather uncivilized. To blame the woman means to say that all men are uncivilized (or maybe only all Muslim men, since we don't expect the Mufti to know much about Non-Muslim men).

 

4) Are muslim women punished for being raped under Islamic law (cant remember the name for it)? (eg. are they believed to be as responsible as the male?)

I remember a case in Nigeria where a woman accused of adultery and sentenced to dearth under sharia law. She had become pregnant after she was raped.

 

Sometimes there is a difference between theory and practice.

 

You know how precious jewels are covered in fabric and not left laying around? Well Islam sees women as jewels that need to be covered up.

But if they do not dress accordingly, they are rotten flesh?

 

5) Finally, do you believe Australia's repsonse is reasonable to the

comments made? NO

Given the experiences about cartoons and similar cases, the reasonable reaction would probably be to kill some Muslims? Or what is the reasonabel response to a leading Muslim insulting raped women by uttering a statement contrary to the facts?

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I just don't get why people are reacting like this to one instance of something that is going on in so many Masjid's and so many of these "scholars" head's today. Its just not news to me anymore.

It was news to the public: they thought a responsible leader should not utter such a disgustful nonsense.

 

If You are right the Muslim community has a problem: their leaders think all Muslims are not able to control themselves when facing a woman not hijabbed. Should we give all Muslim some education or psychological treatment to cure this deficit?

 

Bottom line: a woman is NOT in any way responsible for her own harrasment. Not one little bit. It doesn't matter what she's doing, where she's doing it and what she's doing it in. She recieves no question of even a fraction of the blame.

At least you seem to be a normal man and no savage. You should start to convince Your Imam or make him leave to give way for a responsible preacher.

Edited by looking by

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Think you might want to read this post :

 

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.gawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?s=&showtopic=34783&view=findpost&p=368554"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.gawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?s=&sh...st&p=368554[/url]

 

Case closed.

 

Move on, nothing to see here.

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Before this discussion carries on, read Sheikh Taj's Official Press Release

:D

 

:D bro...thanks for sharing this with us...

 

care to quote the source brother?

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Think you might want to read this post :

 

(www.)"http://gawaher/index.php?s=&sh...st&p=368554"]gawaher/index.php?s=&sh...st&p=368554[/url]

 

Case closed.

 

Move on, nothing to see here.

 

I was under the impression that these forums could be used to hold discussions..

 

I would just like to add to this topic that after questioning some of the students at my school, many of them had no idea that muslim people still held these values in regards to women. They believed that the cleric's comments were outrageous and that they did not belong in Australia (or anywhere for that matter).

 

I have gathered from this topic that the muslim community believe that Australians are making a big deal out of the issue, however, I am wondering, are we making enough fuss compared to other events (cartoons/pope)...?

 

- Greeneydgirl

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Peace

 

You know how precious jewels are covered in fabric and not left laying around? Well Islam sees women as jewels that need to be covered up.

 

And the West sees women as precious jewels that need to shine as bright as the sun :D .

 

You see, this is kind of like the glass half empty or half full analogy.

 

WHat I want my fellow muslims to understand is that we should stop making comparisons between women and jewels/rotten flesh etc.

 

Muslim women wear the veil because Allah commands them to do so. FULL STOP.

 

Peace

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I wonder if this cleric ever criticized the Pope for his comments?

 

He surely seemed to borrow the style of his apology from the Pope. Notice how he never actually apologizes for the comments, but apologizes for the public misunderstanding them.

 

Just like the Pope I believe this was a mountain being made out of a molehill, although I do hope this man has had the chance to rethink what he said.

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I think non muslims across the globe should condemn this man emphatically, we should take our condemnation on to the streets, set fire to things, make death threats, lets show the world that we can do it too, hell, lets even set fire to some Masjids while we're at it.

 

Or shall we just be civilised and leave that sort of behaviour to the other side? Yes, lets, I've got work to do.

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:D

 

:D bro...thanks for sharing this with us...

 

care to quote the source brother?

 

I have found it on another forum, but trust me, the source is reliable :D

 

I don't understand why this Debate is still carrying on.

 

Water has been thrown all over this arguement, the fire has been put out.

 

Move on people.

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no i'm sorry.

 

I have read the apology, and it makes sense.

 

 

BUT - what about the people who clearly beleived the original 'misunderstood' intent? Why cannot these people now stand up and defend their shamefull opinions? Some posted here clearly defending the notion that a woman who is not dressed according to rigid ancient customs in the patriarchal arab culture (note i do not say according to the Quraan) is therefore elegible to be treated "as a peice of meat" by men.

 

why should we not question these people, if they dare to show their face again and defend their beleifs?

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I wonder if this cleric ever criticized the Pope for his comments?

 

He surely seemed to borrow the style of his apology from the Pope. Notice how he never actually apologizes for the comments, but apologizes for the public misunderstanding them.

 

Just like the Pope I believe this was a mountain being made out of a molehill, although I do hope this man has had the chance to rethink what he said.

 

I agree, the Mufti Of Australia did not apologize!

 

So it cannot be over yet, can it?

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I think non muslims across the globe should condemn this man emphatically, we should take our condemnation on to the streets, set fire to things, make death threats, lets show the world that we can do it too, hell, lets even set fire to some Masjids while we're at it.

 

Or shall we just be civilised and leave that sort of behaviour to the other side? Yes, lets, I've got work to do.

 

 

 

Nah, I say we burn an Imam in effigy, firebomb a Masjid, burn some of those Green Hamas flags, and chant "Death To Islam" while firing C7's and Shotguns into the air...

 

Then blame it all on israel.

 

The High road's getting bumpy and rutted, boys, lets' joing the Ummah on the Low road

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Unfortunately, those whose agenda is to try and bash Islam and Muslims do not read the material, and start shooting form the hip. I find Shaikh Hilali's comments perfectly inline as he is admonishing Muslims to keep their women properly covered.

 

Here is an excerpt from (www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20646437-601,00.html"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story...437-601,00.html[/url]

 

In the religious address on adultery to about 500 worshippers in Sydney last month, Sheik Hilali said: "If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside on the street, or in the garden or in the park, or in the backyard without a cover, and the cats come and eat it ... whose fault is it, the cats or the uncovered meat?

 

"The uncovered meat is the problem."

 

The sheik then said: "If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab, no problem would have occurred."

 

He said women were "weapons" used by "Satan" to control men.

 

"It is said in the state of zina (adultery), the responsibility falls 90 per cent of the time on the woman. Why? Because she possesses the weapon of enticement (igraa)."

 

Now let us look at the statements by the Australian PM:

 

"What I am saying to the Islamic community is this: If they do not resolve this matter, it could do lasting damage to the perceptions of that community within the broader Australian community.

 

"If it is not resolved, then unfortunately people will run around saying 'Well the reason they didn't get rid of him is because secretly some of them support his views'."

 

By these remarks, John Howard is indirectly giving the green signal to non-Muslims Australians to have incorrect perceptions about the community, and to isolate Muslims.

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An often asked question on this forum is "What would you do if somebody insulted your mother?".

 

This mufti actually did, not only that he - also insulted my wife, her mother, my wife’s sister and if my daughters were old enough - he would have insulted them too.

 

Now - I don’t live in Australia; I don’t even live nearby so I am not going to do anything about it.

If I lived nearby I wouldn’t have done anything anyway.

 

His comments clearly show how intelligent and understanding he is.

 

Regards

 

Bowman

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There is no reason whatsoever for SHaykh Taj to apoligise to anyone.

 

This mufti actually did, not only that he - also insulted my wife, her mother, my wife’s sister and if my daughters were old enough - he would have insulted them too.

 

Tell your wife and your mother to read his offical statement on the matter.

 

His comments clearly show how intelligent and understanding he is.

 

The fact that you don't know half the story yet you are willing to talk trash about him shows how intelligent and understanding you are :D

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Salaams

IMO

What this guys said can't be backed up by religious teachings that are supported by conclusive evidenced. That's becaz such matter is contraversial and a yes/no answer can't be accurate ( No offense to Mr. Boolean :D )

To the people who do support our hero.. ..first off .... :D and then :D

Now, can we please point to a quote from quran or Hadith?

(A fatwa may not suffice as conclusive evidence since they are often contradictory) and personal opinion is...well personal opinion :D

Bcaz for instance...

If I leave my valuables unattended, it is not an invitation for thieves. (Matter fact I think people do that in SA?).

I mean so what if women want to adopt a sultery look lower the gaze remember..LOWER THE GAZE :D (no I don't mean what you think...sultery is a word...read it again...gutter head :D )

 

To the original poster(Greeneydgirl)..If you are trying to get into the Muslim mindset based on the replies...it may not be the best approach :D...bcaz again

1.I doubt if this can be backed up by quran or hadith.

2.chauvinists come in all assortments and there are non muslims that treat women like meat

(Hannibal Lectur would be a fine example :D )

Besides, not that I agree with him, but so what if the guys said that..big deal...I mean just look at rappers, Most say worse things and still manage to go platinum in the first month.

(ofcourse I personally don't support such people by purchasing their album ..thx to limewire :D )

yawn...anyways....gotta go

 

Peace

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There is no reason whatsoever for SHaykh Taj to apoligise to anyone.

Tell your wife and your mother to read his offical statement on the matter.

The fact that you don't know half the story yet you are willing to talk trash about him shows how intelligent and understanding you are :D

 

What would you do if somebody insulted your mother?

 

Now what is wrong with only understanding half the story?

Most people don't know half the story about what the pope said! :D

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Peace,

 

The guy sounded apologetic enough to me, probably just made a bad choice of words :D

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I have found it on another forum, but trust me, the source is reliable :D

No worries bro...but I still feel that his apology should be made more public...if indeed it is true then it should be published on the Australian papers.

 

Perhaps the western media still wants to fume the fire of hatred and refuse to publish the apology, or the Imam did not take enough effort to publicise it.

 

BUT - what about the people who clearly beleived the original 'misunderstood' intent? Why cannot these people now stand up and defend their shamefull opinions? Some posted here clearly defending the notion that a woman who is not dressed according to rigid ancient customs in the patriarchal arab culture (note i do not say according to the Quraan) is therefore elegible to be treated "as a peice of meat" by men.

 

why should we not question these people, if they dare to show their face again and defend their beleifs?

Can you quote where a Muslim poster on this thread, or anywhere else on the forum, or any Muslim in real life, has ever explicitly said that women who do not cover themselves are to be treated as pieces of meat?

 

Noone has said that. Its all in your head. :D

 

I think most Muslim posters here have defended him, because they know its a misunderstanding, and that was not what the imam meant.

Edited by freedslave

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