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amar_albilaad

Evolution?

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Salaam

 

I disagree with you completely Livius. This is where Islam differs from Christianity where christians believe that Jesus (as) died for the sins of people. They believe he was crucified and this act of excusion requires an executor, so there had to be someone more superior to Jesus (as). Obviously we as muslims dont believe that he was crucified but rather raised to the Heavens. So i guess what im trying to say is that we believe that Allah is our Almighty God and we do not believe that there is anything above God and hence we do not question the existance of God and how He was brought into being. If we had questions about how He was created and Who created him then He wouldnt be God, would He?

 

We as muslims also believe that the Qur'an is the devine message of Allah (swt) and we have no doubt about it that it is the absolute truth. I would review the ratio of 5/6 because there is certainly a much higher percentage of people who believe that the Qur'an is the truth and there is no flaws in the Qur'an.

As Dr. Zakir Naik said that if science has proved that 80% of what was written in the Qur'an thousands of years ago is true. Logically wouldnt you believe that the 20% that science hasnt discovered yet, would also be true? and when science advances to a stage where it can prove that the world did not begin by evolution (and it will insha-Allah), would you then believe in the presence of a God? If so, then you wont be a believer in God but rather a believer in science, right??

 

Shukran for your responces.

 

Salaam

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PropellerAds
Neither can saying God is too complex to understand and that it goes beyond space and time.

 

According to? Professor Livius, or the science of physics and metaphysics?

 

Peace,

 

Averroes

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Salaam

 

Yusufar, if we look at the meaning of the word evolution, all of us would agree that things change all the time since this world is a dynamic system. This is only possible because Allah (swt) is (3ala koellie shay-ien Qadeer). But for us as muslims to believe that creation was brought about by the theory of evolution is unacceptable since we know that the Qur'an states the creation of Adam (as).

 

Evolution is only a theory, but there is solid evidence for it. Did I say or even imply that creation was brought about by evolution? :D

 

Kind regards,

 

yusufar

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salaam

 

Brother yusufar, i apologize if i might have misunderstood you. You say that Islam does not contradict evolution. We as muslims know that Allah (swt) has created the creatures on this earth and Allah Almighty has created the heavens and earth (samawaatie wal-ard) and these proofs are all in the Holy Qur'an. Is this not a contradiction to evolution? That is why i said that if the evolution you are referring to is the changes that take place over time then we would all agree with evolution but not as an explanation to how the world came about, even less us humans.

 

Contrary to popular belief, Islam and evolution are not incompatible or in opposition to one another nor does Islam contradict evolution.

 

God did not create the first human being at the beginning of Creation but rather at the end of it. The first human being whom God created (Adam [pbuh]) was unique and complete in himself and not subject to evolution as everything else created millions (or even billions) of years before him was.

 

Let us be clear on this.

 

So before i misunderstand you again: in your second paragraph you mention that Adam (as) was not subject to evolution as everything else before him was, right?

Does this mean that everything that was created before Adam (as) creatures, trees etc. was brought about by evolution?? :D

 

regards

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Peace

 

Science cannot explain where the universe came from - before you shout "big bang" - where did the mass for the big bang come from and more importantly, who started time?

 

Why is it so hard to believe that the phenomenon known as "the big bang" is simply the effect of Allah(swt) commanding the Universe to "be", to exist.

 

I strongly believe the Big Bang is Proof of Allah(swt)'s creation.

 

Peace

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:D

 

In support of bro anthony's opinion here is from the Qu'ran:

 

The following verse in the Qur'an alludes to the Big Bang Theory:

 

DO THEY NOT THE UNBELIEVERS SEE THAT THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH WERE JOINED TOGETHER (AS ONE UNIT OF CREATION) BEFORE WE CLOVE THEM ASUNDER? WE MADE FROM WATER EVERY LIVING THING. WILL THEY NOT THEN BELIEVE?

 

Surah: 21. Al-Anbiyaa, Ayath 30

 

The Big Bang Theory is very close to a comprehensive understanding of Surah 21, Al-Anbiyaa and Ayath 30, which is cited above. In his note # 2690, Allama Yusuf Ali says " The evolution of the ordered worlds as we see them is hinted at. As man's intellectual gaze over the physical world expands, he sees more and more how Unity is the dominating note in Allah's wonderful Universe. Taking the solar system alone, we know that the maximum intensity of sun-spots corresponds with he maximum intensity of magnetic storms on this earth. The universal law of gravitation seems to bind all mass together. Physical facts point to the throwing off of planets from vast quantities of diffused nebular matter, of which the central condensed core is sun." Of course when Allama Yusuf Ali wrote this commentary it was 1935, long before the Big Bang Theory was espoused and long before the discovery of the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation.

 

Conclusion: The Big Bang Theory does not contradict the Qur'anic revelation (21:30) and it can be used as a Tafsir in understanding 21:30.

 

source: (www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.irfi(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/articles/articles_1_50/big_bang_theory.htm"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.irfi(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/articles/articles_1_50...bang_theory.ht

[/url]

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salaam

 

Brother yusufar, i apologize if i might have misunderstood you. You say that Islam does not contradict evolution. We as muslims know that Allah (swt) has created the creatures on this earth and Allah Almighty has created the heavens and earth (samawaatie wal-ard) and these proofs are all in the Holy Qur'an. Is this not a contradiction to evolution? That is why i said that if the evolution you are referring to is the changes that take place over time then we would all agree with evolution but not as an explanation to how the world came about, even less us humans.

So before i misunderstand you again: in your second paragraph you mention that Adam (as) was not subject to evolution as everything else before him was, right?

Does this mean that everything that was created before Adam (as) creatures, trees etc. was brought about by evolution?? :D

 

regards

 

 

No problem. Misunderstanding is also one of the basic building blocks of the universe.

 

In the very second line of my post I said:

 

"Everything we see (and do not see) did not come into existence by itself - with the exception of God. Everything else other than God is His Creation."

 

Is this not clear? I really don't know how much clearer I can be. What is it you do not understand of this?

 

As far as I am concerned, and this I believe is the Islamic position as well, Creation (by the Word "Be!") is the process by which everything in the natural world was brought about.

 

Nothing was ever created or brought about by evolution, except change of what was originally created by God - which is as it was meant to be.

 

As far as I am aware, only mankind has not been subject to this evolutionary change - we have remained basically the same as when the first man was created.

 

Evolution can never explain how anything in nature was brought about, but only how nature or natural life has changed over a long period of time.

 

Attempts by so-called evolutionists to expand this into a concept of how life itself came into being fall far short of any such intention, leading to many missing links, including the "Missing Link" - that between apes and man. In reality there is no such link so it cannot be missing nor will it ever be found.

 

There is only ONE explanation for the existence of everything as we know it in nature and that is Creation by God. There is no contradiction between Creation and evolution, since evolution is an integral part of the process that natural life has been programmed to go through after Creation - each change is not and need not be a new Creation but merely a process shaped by environmental and other factors.

 

I trust I have been able to make myself clearer.

Edited by yusufar

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salaam

 

yusufar, i did find your previous explanations confusing but i thank you for making yourself clearer. you have misunderstood me to a certain extent. when i started this topic i referred to evolution as perceived by non-muslims. (that we evolved from apes/monkeys etc.) as i repeatedly stated, if we are talking about evolution in the true sense of the word then yes, we would all agree that it does occur since changes take place all the time. being a muslimah, i am well aware of the way Islam and the Qur'an describe the beginning of creation. Islam does however contradict evolution as an explanation to the beginning of creation.

I wanted to hear from those who have reverted to Islam and who perhaps used to believe in this theory of evolution. what is their motivation for now rejecting this theory?

 

regards :D

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Oh, but there is.

 

One cannot say in one breath that nothing complex can come from nothing, then in the next breath say that something as complex as God did...

 

Neither can saying God is too complex to understand and that it goes beyond space and time.

 

:D

 

life is relatively infinitely more complex than the natural elements found in earth. so yes life did not just randomly appear. God was not created. He always was... beyond space and time. If that's not acceptable to you then ask yourself "where did the universe come from?" "why did big bang happen?" then ask yourself "where did complex beings like us come from?" i know you cannot EVER come up with a reasonable answer to these questions without bringing God into the equation.

 

At a purely intellectual level, God is beyond our comprehension. Let's try to remember where we kept the car keys... then figure out how to end world poverty, cure AIDS, then cancer, then come with a single, valid conclusion of the quantum theory, and zillion other problems before we try to "comprehend" God. I hope you know what I mean.

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Evolution is bit by bit, not sudden.

 

according to darwinism, the origination of the first cell was sudden. so i was comparing a passenger jet to a cell. ofcourse, a cell is millions and millions of times more complex than a plane. anyone knowledgeable about both molecular biology could tell you that. but a simple proof of this is the fact that humans have already made air planes but are no way near making a cell, and won't be anywhere close in the next few centuries.

 

peace

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As Dr. Zakir Naik said that if science has proved that 80% of what was written in the Qur'an thousands of years ago is true. Logically wouldnt you believe that the 20% that science hasnt discovered yet, would also be true?

 

No, no no :D Does anyone in this thread even really know what science is about and its origins?

 

by the way, everyone who rejects the idea that "science and Islam are incompatible" then goes ahead and says "we do not accept evolution because it's against the idea of Allah creating adam " are damn big hypcrites. Why isn't anyone else calling them on this????????????????????????????????? Can't you see what a blatant contradiction it is? :D

Edited by 3dshocker

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Peace

 

No, no no :D Does anyone in this thread even really know what science is about and its origins?

 

by the way, everyone who rejects the idea that "science and Islam are incompatible" then goes ahead and says "we do not accept evolution because it's against the idea of Allah creating adam " are damn big hypcrites. Why isn't anyone else calling them on this????????????????????????????????? Can't you see what a blatant contradiction it is? :D

 

Yes, im sure almost everyone here knows what science is. "Science is a way to get knowledge by finding out what is true and removing what is not true. "

 

Firstly, lets try to refrain from terms such as hypocrites. In Islam one does not just call anyone a hypocrite because our Prophet (saw) describes a hypocrite in detail and may Allah protect us from such accusations. We are all here to learn and benefit from others point of view in the most civilised manner possible.

 

I believe that Islam and science are compatible and i also happened to believe that Allah (swt) created Adam (as) and all other creation. Just follow our train-of-thought for a minute. We are saying that us humans and other creation cannot be a product of coincidence or random process, right? So we obviously believe that their is a creator (Allah swt). So if this creator created these complex organisms, creations, humans etc. Then wouldnt He in His great wisdom put in place a medium in which this very complex, intelectual human being can understand the wonder of His creation. Science is a way of understanding Islam. I am a student of science and i have been for the past four years. I still see no incompatibility. :D

 

Peace

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"Science is a way of understanding Islam. I am a student of science and i have been for the past four years. I still see no incompatibility"

 

I would put it to you that you see no incompatibility because to choose not to, otherwise ur world would come crashing down.

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Peace

 

I would put it to you that you see no incompatibility because to choose not to, otherwise ur world would come crashing down.

 

You are entitled to your opinion but at least give us some proofs why you think science and Islam are incompatible?

 

Regards

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Peace

Yes, im sure almost everyone here knows what science is. "Science is a way to get knowledge by finding out what is true and removing what is not true. "

 

and I think you've demonstrated that you don't know what it is. If you know the answer to why science is ALWAYS just a best guess, then you know the answer to what science is about.

 

Firstly, lets try to refrain from terms such as hypocrites.

then I shall call them the self contradictors! :D

 

In Islam one does not just call anyone a hypocrite because our Prophet (saw) describes a hypocrite in detail and may Allah protect us from such accusations.
I am not in Islam and probably don't follow the same rules you do, hence my use of the word hypocrite in this case.

 

We are all here to learn and benefit from others point of view in the most civilised manner possible.
sounds nice.

 

I believe that Islam and science are compatible and i also happened to believe that Allah (swt) created Adam (as) and all other creation.
you believing anything does not mean it is true~ same goes for everyone else.

 

Just follow our train-of-thought for a minute. We are saying that us humans and other creation cannot be a product of coincidence or random process, right?
I agree that that is what you are saying, I do not agree with what you say ofcourse.

 

I am a student of science and i have been for the past four years. I still see no incompatibility.

my friend, you are not a genuine scientist unless you have taken philosophy and discovered the origin of science. The reason that science and religion conflict is because philosophy and religion conflict. Faith means nothing in philosophy, it is all based on logical proofs and that is the reason there is a conflict between science and Islam.

 

The conflicts themselves are blatant and obvious to those without faith. i.e. if someone says Islam and science do not conflict and then says a product of scientific investigation (evolution) is wrong because it does not coincide with what the quran says (god created adam).

The logic behind this accusation is clear: science and and Islam are clearly in conflict if parts of Islam (god created adam) and parts of science (evolution) do not coincide.

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Peace

 

3dshocker, please do not quote me out of context. The second paragraph of your first quote were not my words.

 

Secondly, i am giving my view from an Islamic perspective. The existance of science is an affirmation that God exists. Since you are a believer in science, my question to you still stands: Has science proven anything (besides evolution) in the Qur'an to be false?

The reason why i say 'besides evolution' is because this theory has been devised so many years ago and scientific findings have been established based on the theory of evolution. So in my view, the basis is incorrect.

 

The other thing is, im sure you have heard and read about the great achievements that muslim scientists have accomplished over the years. So if what you are saying is true, that science and Islam are incompatible, then how could these scientists have succeded given that their main source was the Qur'an and Sunnah (Islam)??

 

I am a student of science and i have been for the past four years. I still see no incompatibility. :D

 

I did mention that i am a student of science and not a scientist, so i am still learning.

 

One more thing. Science does not give a logical and reasonable explanation to how evolution started, im sure you agree. Things that evolve always evolve from something to another. So how can you just take for granted that the first 'something' was just there. From where did it come?

 

Peace

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:D brothers and sisters of IF

 

I have recently had a discussion with a colleague of mine who is agnostic. He believes in evolution and that the world started with molecules and atoms that evolved into the species that we have today. I myself do not know the concept of evolution and as a muslimah, i dont believe in it. I know that there are many IF members that have embraced Islam maa-shaa-Allah and who might have also believed in the same concept.

 

I need to know what are good points to bring across to this person, in order to make him understand my point from an Islamic perspective. What are the main issues that can make a person realize that the concept of evolution is false.

 

Shukran in advance

 

salam

 

Some part of the evolution is true and other may be wrong. However, we know for sure that Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala is the Creator of the evolution or the parts that are true.

 

Evolution is a creation and the Creator of the creation is Allah.

 

Animals can adapt to the environment by God's leave.

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Peace

 

Here is what I believe and it's compatible with Islam.

 

I believe species evolve to adapt to new environments over time......3dshocker you dont have a problem with this right?

 

remember in the Qur'an (not sure which ayat) the angels say something to the effect "all life originated from the oceans" so this is clear proof of evolution since species obviously had to adapt when they came out.

 

Peace

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One more thing. Science does not give a logical and reasonable explanation to how evolution started, im sure you agree. Things that evolve always evolve from something to another. So how can you just take for granted that the first 'something' was just there. From where did it come?

 

Evolution is a scientific fact. The origins of life (ambiogenesis) haven't been established, so there is a nice little gap there where you can fit in a creator. Evolution doesn't concern itself with how life began, that is a different field and has no impact on the fact that evolution occured after life began.

 

Just because something hasn't been established (yet) by scientific investigation, doesn't mean that we should speculate wildly on what might have happened (especially if there is no possibility of investigating the validity of your speculation).

 

I find it strange to accept most scientific knowledge, but then disagree with the entire scientific body on an issue which isn't even controlvertial in scientific circles. Any disbelief over evolution is based mostly on faith or the fact that a person believes in a creation story and will not let go of it.

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Salaams

 

Peace

 

Here is what I believe and it's compatible with Islam.

 

I believe species evolve to adapt to new environments over time......3dshocker you dont have a problem with this right?

 

remember in the Qur'an (not sure which ayat) the angels say something to the effect "all life originated from the oceans" so this is clear proof of evolution since species obviously had to adapt when they came out.

 

Peace

 

So Prophet Adam was not a homo sapien ? :D

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Peace

 

3dshocker, please do not quote me out of context. The second paragraph of your first quote were not my words.

err, srry about that, didn't notice till now. but meh, theres not much substance in that quoted part of mine anyway.

 

Has science proven anything (besides evolution) in the Qur'an to be false?

...science can't prove evolution as fact, neither can it prove gravity, or electrons, or atomic structure as fact. At best these are all just assumed to be highly probable. You really should dig into the origins of science and find why this is so. Given this, science cannot prove the Quran wrong at all. However science and the quran do come into conflict in terms of what they say. The example we're dealing here with is evolution. Other examples would be that sun setting in murky water thing. The orbit of the sun, flat earth (i think) etc.

 

I believe species evolve to adapt to new environments over time......3dshocker you dont have a problem with this right?
I don't know enough about evolution but that is also exactly how I understand it ~ adaptation to the environment.

 

The other thing is, im sure you have heard and read about the great achievements that muslim scientists have accomplished over the years. So if what you are saying is true, that science and Islam are incompatible, then how could these scientists have succeded given that their main source was the Qur'an and Sunnah (Islam)??

 

The state of being religious or non-religious has no effect on the scientific method of investigation. Therefore you or I would be able to take the exact same approach and come accross the exact same results regardless of our religious differences. Therein lies the success you refer to. The religious and non religious factor have a powerful influence on what we conclude from the results. For example, had I discovered atomic theory, I would have finished off by saying "ooooh! this is cool!" whereas you may finish off by saying "this is so magnificent, it is a sign of gods creation!". I guess you could say the difference between a religious and non-religious scientist would be that the religious ones have a tendacy to attach "Goddidit" to the end of every conclusion.

 

So how can you just take for granted that the first 'something' was just there. From where did it come?
Strangely this is the exact same thing that people believe about God :D anywayz, science has never concluded that something was just there, so I'm not sure where you're getting this from. Look up the big bang or evolution depending on which ever it is your refering to.

 

Science does not give a logical and reasonable explanation to how evolution started, im sure you agree.
I don't Know enough about the start of evolution to take a stance on that. I think it was something about amino acids right?

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:D

 

you guys are just going back and forth with "Islam is compatible with science" and "Islam is incompatible with science" without arguing (and thus without learning) much. let's try to stop propagandizing and let's start reasoning.

 

i menioned the problem with the first cell before. amar_albilaad thank you for mentioning it again. bro anthony please provide the exact source of the verse you quoted because it's important. llogical has a good point for those who try to integrate both Islam and evolution--i would like to hear your explanation to that.

 

peace

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bro anthony please provide the exact source of the verse you quoted because it's important

 

Certainly. Here it is:

 

[21:30] ...And We made every living thing from water...

 

[24:45] And Allah has created every animal from water...

 

Modern scientific theory on the origin of life was not firmly established up until the last two or three centuries. Prior to that, the predominant theory on the origin of life was based on a concept called "spontaneous generation" where living creatures literally popped out of inanimate matter spontaneously and continuously. This view was discredited with the work of many Renaissance scientists including Harvey and Redi, and in the 1850's, Louis Pasteur's research on bacteriology sealed the coffin on this theory. Starting with the work of Huxley up to the present day, an alternative theory has been proposed where life is understood to have emerged from a long, increasingly complex chain of chemical reactions. These reactions are believed to have begun in the depths of the oceans because the atmosphere was not sufficiently developed to protect living organisms from ultraviolet radiation. ((www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/scislam.html"]Source:usc.msa[/url])

 

Life Came From Water

 

The Qur'an describes that Allah "made from water every living thing" (21:30). Another verse describes how "Allah has created every animal from water. Of them are some that creep on their bellies, some that walk on two legs, and some that walk on four. Allah creates what He wills, for truly Allah has power over all things" (24:45). These verses support the scientific theory that life began in the Earth's oceans. (www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_islam.about(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/od/creation/a/creation_2.htm"]Source[/url]

 

and:

 

He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days - and His Throne was over the waters - that He might try you, which of you is best in conduct. But if thou wert to say to them, "Ye shall indeed be raised up after death", the Unbelievers would be sure to say, "This is nothing but obvious sorcery!" (The Noble Quran, 11:7)"

 

"Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe? (The Noble Quran, 21:30)"

 

"It is He Who has created man from water: then has He established relationships of lineage and marriage: for thy Lord has power (over all things). (The Noble Quran, 25:54)"

 

"And God has created every animal from water: of them there are some that creep on their bellies; some that walk on two legs; and some that walk on four. God creates what He wills for verily God has power over all things. (The Noble Quran, 24:45)" . (www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.answering-christianity(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/origin_of_life.htm"]Source[/url]

 

Hope this is clear enough.

 

Peace

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...science can't prove evolution as fact, neither can it prove gravity, or electrons, or atomic structure as fact. At best these are all just assumed to be highly probable. ) etc.

I disagree, evolutuon is a theory ( can't be proven) where gravity is a law and by definition can be proven Every time.

The Qur'an describes that Allah "made from water every living thing" (21:30). Another verse describes how "Allah has created every animal from water. Of them are some that creep on their bellies, some that walk on two legs, and some that walk on four. Allah creates what He wills, for truly Allah has power over all things" (24:45). These verses support the scientific theory that life began in the Earth's oceans

What if Science maintains that Life started on Land?

Creationists would still argue that it started from a molecule of Oxygen or Hydrogen which are the elements of water. My point is that Quran speaks in Vague terminiology, thus the flexibility to coincide with the changing ideas. For example, right now most scholars disagree with Darwin, but if the next century recealsconclusive evidence validating Darwin's theory, I am certain that the new age of scholars will find a way to interpret Quran to coincide with it.

Take Heavens are Earths for example..what does that mean? Does it mean the universe? or

just the planet earth + place called Heaven? Because right now Heavens and Earths imply the universe..But if we find evidence in the future that the universe was NOT created in 6 days? I am sure that the intrepretion will change. Besides, it's not fair to say "science proves these verses... hence it must be right" and then discredit the same science once it disagrees with other things. Because that would mean, If it agrees, what a genius an dif it doesn't , what a retard.

 

Peace

Edited by llogical

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