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There Is Nothing Miraculous Written In The Qu'ran

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Peace,

 

Member bluesky commented in another thread that there are miracles which are, "...like medical , scientific, mathmatecal etc" in the Qu'ran, I dispute this. I do not believe there is anything remotely miraculous of this nature written anywhere in the Qu'ran.

 

The terms of this debate are as follows and should be adhered to, if Moderators could enforce these rules which I consider to be reasonable I would be much obliged however if they are deemed un-Islamic or unfair feel free to delete this thread. These terms come in two parts, one which applies to posting etiquette and the other are terms which I require to prove a miracle:

 

Posting etiquette:

 

A: Please bring forth only one application for miracle status at a time, preferably do not bring any other 'miracles' for consideration until the previous one has been established as miraculous or debunked as non-miraculous.

B: If members are unable to prove a miracle by the conditions I will list below I ask they acknowledge that their proposition cannot be proven miraculous by these conditions. Likewise, if something is proven miraculous I ask anybody who has tried to argue against this to accept that the Qu'ran contains this miracle.

C: As per forum rules do not become insulting to other members and do not post in this thread if you do not accept the terms of the debate listed in this post.

D: Please make sure anything you wish to be considered as a miracle is written in your own words except quotations from the Qu'ran. Where possible provide different the English translations of Qu'ranic verses. Paraphrasing from online sources is fine but not certainly not cut and pastes from web-sites whether they be pro or anti-Islamic.

E: This thread has been started on the basis that some believe the Qu'ran contains miracles. I have set reasonable standards below to assess these claims which I consider fair for any book, religious or otherwise which believers claim to have miracles contained therein. Unless I am mistaken many Muslim forum members already know that nothing contained within the Qu'ran is miraculous and I am aware that you know this, I would be glad however if you want to discuss how the Qu'ran truly is a wonderful book and does not need miracles contained within it to do so outwith this thread. My gripe is not with Islam, God or the Qu'ran but with those who would seek to claim that the Qu'ran is something which it is not.

 

Rules:

 

1: Statements of fact from the Qu'ran must be unambiguous with no elaborate interpretation necesarry to discern their intended meaning.

2: Statements of fact from the Qu'ran must not be obvious to a casual observer.

3: Statements of fact from the Qu'ran must not have been known by any other civilization which had contact with the Arabian Peninsula.

4: Statements of fact from the Qu'ran must be technically correct.

 

Finally before wishing good luck to anybody crazy enough to try and take this proposition on, I would ask that everyone wishing to participate in this discussion understands the rules clearly and observes good etiquette. If you feel I have missed out anything important PM me rather than posting on this thread so as to avoid disrupting the flow of debate and I will edit this first post accordingly.

 

Let the games begin!

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salaam;

 

so many rules & regulations....oopss....these will distract our attention from the main topic.

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I seek refuge in Allah (The One God) from the Satan (devil) the cursed, the rejected

 

Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of Allah be upon you)

 

**

Listen to the holy Quran---the Final Testament

Recitation of Sura Fathiha by Shiekh Saad Al-Ghamdhi of Saudi Arabia

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.islamworld(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/fathiha.au"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.islamworld(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/fathiha.au[/url]

 

 

&&&

 

salaam/peace to u & all;

 

If i break any rules , hope punishment won't be eternal.

 

 

The Amazing Qur'an (audio)

 

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.youtube(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/results?search_query=Qur'an"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.youtube(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/results?search_query=Qur'an[/url]

 

 

Dr. Gary Miller is a mathematician and a theologian. He was active in Christian missionary work at a particular point of his life but he soon began to discover many inconsistencies in the Bible.

 

 

In 1978, he happened to read the Qur'an expecting that it, too, would contain a mixture of truth and falsehood.

 

He discovered to his amazement that the message of the Qur'an was precisely the same as the essence of truth that he had distilled from the Bible. He became a Muslim and since then has been active in giving public presentations on Islam including radio and television appearances.

 

He is also the author of several articles and publications about Islam

 

 

When Modern Science Agrees with the Qur'an*

 

Fethullah Gulen**

 

 

 

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.islamonline(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/English/Living_Shariah/QuranTheReminder/Quranicmiracles/2006/07/01.shtml"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.islamonline(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/English/Living_...006/07/01.shtml[/url]

 

 

 

Insha Allah , more to come

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salaam;

 

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_islamyesterday(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/videos/science"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_islamyesterday(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/videos/science[/url]

 

 

Videos - Scientists Comments on the Quran

 

Watch videos of the scientists’ comments on the scientific miracles in the Quran. Their statements have been quoted in the book entitled A Brief Illustrated Guide To Understanding Islam and in this web site.

 

 

 

* Quran on Human Embryonic Development

* Quran on Mountains

* Quran on the Origin of the Universe

* Quran on the Cerebrum

 

 

 

* Quran on Seas and Rivers

* Quran on Deeps Seas and Internal Waves

* Quran on Clouds

 

 

* Scientists’ Comments on Miracles in Quran (RealPlayer Video)

 

Contents

Home Page for "Brief Illustrated Guide to Understanding Islam: (www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.Islam-guide(contact admin if its a beneficial link)"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.Islam-guide(contact admin if its a beneficial link)[/url]

 

More Videos with Sheik Yusuf Estes - Dr. Bilal Phillips - Dr. Jafar Idris

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Peace Bluesky,

 

who is the judge here ?

 

Hehe you ask a very good question. The rules are such that there is unlikely to be any problem in identifying a non-miracle! If you feel a miscarriage of justice has occured at any point in this debate I have no problem if you want a second opinion from a member of the moderating team who I would welcome to join in.

 

Peace, I was maybe unclear about how I would like this debate to proceed.

 

D: Please make sure anything you wish to be considered as a miracle is written in your own words except quotations from the Qu'ran. Where possible provide different the English translations of Qu'ranic verses. Paraphrasing from online sources is fine but not certainly not cut and pastes from web-sites whether they be pro or anti-Islamic.

 

I'm quite happy for you to paraphrase what is written on Dr. Gary Miller's web-site, however to paraphrase means to say something in our own words, rather than cutting and pasting long segments which cannot be debated in any rational manner. That way we can have a real debate instead of just quoting from web-sites which do not improve our own knowledge or improve the debate in any way.

 

so many rules & regulations....oopss....these will distract our attention from the main topic.

 

Ah but they won't! How can anybody ever come to a conclusion unless they both play by the same rules? I appreciate this must be difficult if English is not your first language, and I commend your bravery if you decide to undertake the challenge I have set you. I would also be pleased if you would present one item to be considered at a time so that we can resolve things one by one instead of just cutting and pasting long articles which nobody will read.

 

I will give you an example in the next post of how I would like you to present your argument, which I will take from one of the links you provided. (However please do not quote links like you did above, it is not the way to debate!)

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Peace bluesky, (This is the example of how I would wish anybody trying to prove a miracle in the Qu'ran to present their argument.)

 

Or (the unbelievers’ state) is like the darkness in a deep sea. It is covered by waves, above which are waves, above which are clouds. Darknesses, one above another. If a man stretches out his hand, he cannot see it....
(Quran, 24:40)

 

This verse is miraculous because there is no way that Muhammad could have known that it gets dark in the deep sea. (As paraphrased from your link [at] (www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.Islam-guide(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/frm-ch1-1-f.htm)"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.Islam-guide(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/frm-ch1-1-f.htm)[/url]

 

I hope this helps the debate in the future. If you would like me to respond to this 'miracle' by applying the rules I mentioned in post #1 then ask and we can start with this example. Otherwise please present an alternative 'miracle' for discussion.

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Well there was that one about the big bang. Any muslims on the forum wanna take that one up?

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Peace from our Lord,

 

This verse is miraculous because there is no way that Muhammad could have known that it gets dark in the deep sea

He lived in a desert, so possibly he did not know it. But there is the possibility that this knowledge passed from people living at the sea to him ...

 

As far as I know, people deduced by looking at fishs disappearing in the deep water that the depth of the sea is dark.

 

In Hiob, even the bottom of a river is contrasted to "light". Everybody knows the sea is deeper than a river.

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Well there was that one about the big bang. Any muslims on the forum wanna take that one up?

 

 

I would take that one but i only now a little..

 

 

Allah has said that there was one big mass and it was splited( the bang theory is wrong). And he also....Allah said that water was the key element to are existant.

 

And if you now about evolution and the creation of living things, you will now that water is the key element to are existant

 

you can get more information here (www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_islamtomorrow(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_islamtomorrow(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/[/url]

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Peace from our Lord,

 

And if you now about evolution and the creation of living things, you will now that water is the key element to are existant

 

you can get more information here (www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_islamtomorrow(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_islamtomorrow(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/[/url]

Please give a more precise link. There is no creation mentioned on that page, and it is by no means obvious which link I should follow to get to the information you promised.

 

And a site feeding on junk like Dan Brown does not give the impression it contains trustworthy information...

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:D

 

In suratul-Rahman (Surah 55) Verses 19-20

19. He has let free the two bodies of flowing water, meeting together:

20. Between them is a Barrier which they do not transgress:

 

That is Yusuf Ali's english translation.

This same phenomenon is also mentioned in a different surah as well:

Surah 25, Verse 53

53. It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.

 

It is proven by modern science that the oceans, rivers, etc don't mix. There is a sort of barrier (yes it isn't exactly a straight line, it's more like an S usually or a C) that prevents them from mixing. So a river will stay freshwater, and the ocean will stay saltwater. Also, when two saltwater bodies meet, they keep their own respective salinity levels and don't mix.

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Peace

 

The Big Bang Theory is prooven by the Quran

 

Source: Miracles of the Quran (On Youtube)

 

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_youtube(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/watch?v=YN2Z5Wbv2bA"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_youtube(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/watch?v=YN2Z5Wbv2bA[/url]

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_youtube(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/watch?v=VDo8XFZ1MZs"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_youtube(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/watch?v=VDo8XFZ1MZs[/url]

 

^^ One of the above clips taken from the hour long documentary prooves the big bang theoriy using ayats from the Noble Qur'an to support this view. Not sure which.

 

Peace

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:D my brothers and sisters!

 

Your Lord revealed to the bees: "Build dwellings in the mountains and the trees, and also in the structures which men erect. Then eat from every kind of fruit and travel the paths of your Lord, which have been made easy for you to follow." From inside them comes a drink of varying colours, containing healing for mankind. There is certainly a Sign in that for people who reflect. (Qur'an, 16:68-69)

 

In Arabic, there two different usages of verbs. By means of the usage, it is possible to determine whether the subject is a female or a male. The verbs, written in bold, used for the honey bee in the verses are used in the format of the verb for females. Through this, the Qur'an indicates that the honey bees that work in the making of the honey are females. This can be verified by modern science.

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Peace from our Lord,

 

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_youtube(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/watch?v=YN2Z5Wbv2bA"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_youtube(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/watch?v=YN2Z5Wbv2bA[/url]

Myteriously, this clip does speak of two rather unknown Russians, instead of naming the man who first theoreticised about the expanding universe:

 

Albert Einstein

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Peace from our Lord,

 

Through this, the Qur'an indicates that the honey bees that work in the making of the honey are females. This can be verified by modern science.

Modern science shows that the bees that do the work are as asexual as an eunuch. If they are female, then a eunuch is male.

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Peace from our Lord,

Modern science shows that the bees that do the work are as asexual as an eunuch. If they are female, then a eunuch is male.

 

Wa aleikum

 

A male bee's only function in a bee colony is to fertilise the queen bee, that's why the other bees are females although they're sterile. The queen is the same as a worker bee, except that she reaches sexual maturity.

Edited by Younes Ibn Abd' al-Aziz

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Peace from our Lord,

 

A male bee's only function in a bee colony is to fertilise the queen bee, that's why the other bees are females although they're sterile.

The queen is female, as to the working bees, they are not only sterile, but sexually inactive, uncapable of sexual instincts.

 

If they are females, an eunuch is a male.

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Peace from our Lord,

The queen is female, as to the working bees, they are not only sterile, but sexually inactive, uncapable of sexual instincts.

 

If they are females, an eunuch is a male.

 

Wa aleikum

 

They are classified as females.

 

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_en.wikipedia(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/wiki/Queen_bee"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_en.wikipedia(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/wiki/Queen_bee[/url]

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_en.wikipedia(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/wiki/Worker_bee"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_en.wikipedia(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/wiki/Worker_bee[/url]

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Peace from our Lord,

 

They are classified as females.

Genetically, they are females. And a eunuch is male, genetically. Almost a perfect parallel.

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Peace from our Lord,

Genetically, they are females. And a eunuch is male, genetically. Almost a perfect parallel.

 

Wa aleikum

 

Exactly.

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Peace Younes,

 

At the start of this topic I gave certain criteria to establish a miracle, these can be seen in post #1. If you wish the fact that in Arabic the bee is 'female' to be considered as a miracle then I would have to draw your attention to point #1.

 

1: Statements of fact from the Qu'ran must be unambiguous with no elaborate interpretation necesarry to discern their intended meaning.

 

Thus, is it your opinion that this ayat was intended to make the point that worker bee's are classified as female or do you think from looking at the verses surrounding this ayat that perhaps this was not the intended meaning of the verse?

 

I don't speak Arabic so I'll have to ask you several further questions on this topic.

 

1. You emphasized the words 'build' and 'travel' as being ones in which a female term were used with reference to bee's.

2. Are the words for 'build' and 'travel' always used as female or does it vary according to the noun being discussed?

3. If it varies then what determines the variance?

4. If not for example, French a bee is referred to as a female, A bee becomes - "Une abeille." If a bee were male it would appear, "Un abeille". There would be a 50% chance if it were the prefix chosen randomly that the "correct" one regardless as to whether the author were aware that worker bee's were regarded as females.

5. A 50/50 chance of the prefix being used is hardly worth calls for a miracle is it?

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Peace Younes,

 

At the start of this topic I gave certain criteria to establish a miracle, these can be seen in post #1. If you wish the fact that in Arabic the bee is 'female' to be considered as a miracle then I would have to draw your attention to point #1.

 

Wa aleikum

 

The verse speaks for itself, the bee which builds the nest, leaves her home, and goes out in search of food is a female one.

 

 

 

Thus, is it your opinion that this ayat was intended to make the point that worker bee's are classified as female or do you think from looking at the verses surrounding this ayat that perhaps this was not the intended meaning of the verse?

 

My opinion is that the the bee that builds the nest, leaves her home, and goes out in search of food is a female one, which is clear. There can be other meanings but they must be eveluated.

 

1. You emphasized the words 'build' and 'travel' as being ones in which a female term were used with reference to bee's.

2. Are the words for 'build' and 'travel' always used as female or does it vary according to the noun being discussed?

 

Yes, it varies according to the noun being discussed.

 

3. If it varies then what determines the variance?

 

If you are speaking of male you will use one form and if your speaking of a female another one. I can give you this example. In Moroccan Arabic if you'd command a person to go, you would say "Siir" or "Siiri", the last one is used if the person's a female.

 

4. If not for example, French a bee is referred to as a female, A bee becomes - "Une abeille." If a bee were male it would appear, "Un abeille". There would be a 50% chance if it were the prefix chosen randomly that the "correct" one regardless as to whether the author were aware that worker bee's were regarded as females.

 

The example you gave from French exists also in Arabic, but on top of that the verb varies too. How could've the author known that it was the female bee, since the gender of the bee can not be seen with the naked eye? Why, would he choose the female one? Certainly not based on other bee studies and it wouldn't even matter if he picked it from other bee studies, since he could've always picked the wrong one too.

 

5. A 50/50 chance of the prefix being used is hardly worth calls for a miracle is it?

 

That's up for you to decide. However, I think that you know my position concerning this.

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Peace Younes,

 

Thank you for the prompt response, your answers lead me to one rather obvious obvious question:

 

Were verbs applied to bee's always written as female before the Qu'ran was written? If so then this is a quirk of the Arabic language and is plainly not miraculous.

 

If not as I said before it was 50/50. With those odds you would surely regard correctly predicting tossing a coin as a miracle also?

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Peace Younes,

 

Thank you for the prompt response, your answers lead me to one rather obvious obvious question:

 

Were verbs applied to bee's always written as female before the Qu'ran was written? If so then this is a quirk of the Arabic language and is plainly not miraculous.

 

If not as I said before it was 50/50. With those odds you would surely regard correctly predicting tossing a coin as a miracle also?

 

Wa aleikum

 

No, it wouldn't be a quirk of the Arabic language, since there'd still exist the possibility of error if the author would simply go by the normal usage of the Arabic language of the current of the current time. I'll give you an example, the Arabs believed that the rain returned the water of the oceans to the sea, which is correct. But the Arabs also had a lot of incorrect theories and superstitions which are not correct, so had the Qur'an confirmed any of those, that would be totally problematic. Of course, the Qur'an only confirms what is True and refutes what is incorrect.

 

By the heaven which giveth the returning rain, (86:11)

 

I don't know if the verbs applied to the bees were always written as female.

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