Jump to content
Islamic Forum
cefarix

Watch Out For Ex-muslim "testimonials"

Recommended Posts

PropellerAds

You could use your time more wisely than to criticize these people. It does not profit you anything. It is not as if people don't convert from Islam for good reasons just as they do in other religions. You would have me to believe that the only fake converts are the ones that leave Islam? :sl: People convert for any number of reasons, and that does not make their testimonies fake. You would be highly delusional to take this thread seriously without giving these people the benefit of a doubt. I am sure that you wouldn't think the same way about those Muslims that came from another faith? I find it somewhat arrogant and hypocritical to exploit conversions even if you think that they are fake. How many Muslims were once members of another religion? Should we call all of you fakes because you changed religions and accepted Islam? If you are going to apply a standard, make sure that you apply it to your own religion equally. At least I can see that you were being consistent.

 

I think that if you have to analyze each part of the person's video with a sense of ridicule, then you have issues with security of self and/or religion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We never said that all people who convert out of Islam are fakes. We've given them the benefit of the doubt in fact, and I doubt you've read through the entire thread otherwise you would not be saying such things. You should read more carefully and think more rationally before making such comments.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
We never said that all people who convert out of Islam are fakes. We've given them the benefit of the doubt in fact, and I doubt you've read through the entire thread otherwise you would not be saying such things. You should read more carefully and think more rationally before making such comments.

 

I was describing the two videos when I was speaking. They are set up to provide ridicule. There is no objectivity given to determine whether these people were sincere or not. The test of whether they are fake or not lies in the sincerity of their testimony and not in how educated they may not have been in Islam. That is the bottom line. Their purpose is not really to identify false converts. In the 1st video, someone dubbed people laughing continually in the background, which was an attempt to ridicule rather than provide any proof of being fake. The editor of the vid continually challenged what the person said opposed to showing that the person wasn't sincere in what he was saying. There is a big difference between being insincere or being inaccurate in some claims about said religion than to purposely misrepresent. A fake apostate is one who claims to leave a religion in order to defame or distort that religion. He or she has a prior motive which is not based upon honesty and actual experience. I am not sure how you can determine if these people weren't sincere in what they believed, even if you could argue that they had partially distorted information.

 

The guy in the second video just continues this attack. In one portion of the clip, he sets up an ad hominem and a straw man. The apostate said that God didn't answer his prayers. The narrator then ridiculed him by saying that God did answer your prayers. The following highlighted text (blue) is my paraphrasing of the narrator's interpretation of what the apostate said. You can find this near the 5 min. segment of the vid. He stated that the person was over weight and fat, so that obviously meant that God provided him with enough food. What is he complaining about? Doesn't he realize that there are millions of people starving elsewhere, but he is a doctor, has a good education, a good life, etc. He should be grateful. He is a liar for saying that his prayers weren't answered.

 

These videos are definitely not about determining a false apostate. A false apostate is one who claims to have converted but only did it for propagandistic purposes. Even if the two narrators felt that these two apostates were ignorant of Islam, they can't classify them as fake. Those two people didn't show any signs of propaganda which would be a tipoff. From my perspective, they were giving their reasons. If anything, they should be labeled as ignorant. It would be that their ignorance of Islam is what lead them away. I really don't sense anything in their demeanor to indicate that their interviews were created intentionally as a tool to lead people away from Islam. If this in fact what they were trying to do, it is not overt. If there were some way to prove that they were paid to do this or that this was staged, then I would have no argument against the OP. I just think that there is inconclusive evidence to make a claim of these two vids as example of fake apostates.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well I try to take an objective approach and in the OP I have attempted to dissect the reasons for why people converted out of Islam and also discussed some of the most often quoted reasons that I have seen on Internet media (like youtube). As for the videos you're talking about, I did not post them here on this thread, and perhaps the guy in the second video is a bit brash in his statements, but looking through his statements I find the logic of his arguments to be pretty much sound nonetheless. I cannot say for sure whether those videos are definitely "fake converts" and the point of me creating this thread was not pass judgement on anyone's conversions but only to educate Muslims. I do however hold the informed opinion that many of the videos are of a professional quality and are used in a propagandist setting or documentary, thereby I have reasonable doubt on the sincerity of the conversion. I do believe that some of the conversions are sincere, but I also think that some are not. However, as I've stated already, the point of this thread wasn't to determine whether conversion videos are faked, or whether conversions are fake, but to educate Muslims through a logical and rational dissection of the reasons for apostasy and the common reasons given for apostasy in the media.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Well I try to take an objective approach and in the OP I have attempted to dissect the reasons for why people converted out of Islam and also discussed some of the most often quoted reasons that I have seen on Internet media (like youtube). As for the videos you're talking about, I did not post them here on this thread, and perhaps the guy in the second video is a bit brash in his statements, but looking through his statements I find the logic of his arguments to be pretty much sound nonetheless. I cannot say for sure whether those videos are definitely "fake converts" and the point of me creating this thread was not pass judgement on anyone's conversions but only to educate Muslims. I do however hold the informed opinion that many of the videos are of a professional quality and are used in a propagandist setting or documentary, thereby I have reasonable doubt on the sincerity of the conversion. I do believe that some of the conversions are sincere, but I also think that some are not. However, as I've stated already, the point of this thread wasn't to determine whether conversion videos are faked, or whether conversions are fake, but to educate Muslims through a logical and rational dissection of the reasons for apostasy and the common reasons given for apostasy in the media.

 

Cefarix, I completely understand your purpose, as it is specifically stated in the OP. I equally agree with your assessment in your last post. What I was looking at was the two vids that have the words fake convert in them. IMO, those two vids clash with the thread since they appear to specifically seek to undermine the person.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Alhamdulilah i already know about these fake people.

 

They are so desperate to get converts they resort to lying.

 

But even still the arguements they give are very poor in the video.

 

SubhanAllah. :sl:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I actually find it very sad and disheartening that people look upon others who have left the religion as as "straying off the path" instead of realizing that maybe this person is just searching in other areas for spiritual guidance. I'm not saying it's solely within Islam, as this happens in all major religions. When I left the Catholic church, I actually had people crying because they thought I was now doomed to hell. Don't get me wrong, I realize that all their anger and resentment towards me was not out of hatred, but rather out of love, because they thought that if I "escaped" from the Christian belief system that I would forever burn in the afterlife; thus their actions were fueled by a desire to "save" me. Luckily I am now free of that, and I can honestly say that opening your mind up to the world around you can do a lot of of good, as can studying other religions and methods of thought. I think if I had stayed within the Christian sect I would have become a mindless robot, only because I would have lacked that drive and desire to "search" for more answers, and instead become complacent and given up in trying to find answers in life.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
While I appreciate the intimacy in the Islamic faith concerning the relationship between God and His people, it’s still viewed as a master/slave relationship whereas in Christianity we call God our “Fatherâ€. We believe we are His adopted sons and daughters hence we share a unique intimacy with Him.

 

Perhaps that’s another reason why people leave the Islamic faith…

 

God bless,

 

I'm sure people leave Islam for many reasons, but I doubt people are leaving by the herds because they consider this a dilemna.

 

Also, being a slave of Allah means loving Him unconditionally and seeking His pleasure. Because He is our creator, our ruler AND our master. It is not the slave/master relations of this world in which the slave is bound unwillingly to his master, and spends a lifetime wishing he were anywhere else. It is absolute attachment and submission to God and doing everything for His pleasure.

 

As for those who leave Islam:

 

O you who believe! Whoever from among you turns back from his religion (Islam), Allah will bring a people whom He will love and they will love Him; humble towards the believers, stern towards the disbelievers, fighting in the way of Allah, and never fearing the blame of the blamers. That is the grace of Allah which He bestows on whom He wills. And Allah is All-Sufficient for His creatures' needs, All-Knower. [5:54]

 

Salam.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

actually, brother, many devout and sincere Muslims with a very good understanding of imaan and sunnah, and with great dedication to Islam to leave Islam.

 

many Muslims who have no plans or desires to leave Islam are called to do just that.

 

sometimes the most surprising testimonies come from those Muslims who were most sincere and devoted to the deen, and able to argue very well in Islam's favor.

 

when reading any testimony, it should be understood that the person has written it out of a sincere desire to share something that has happened to them with others.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

what is very important, i feel, is that former Muslims be able and willing to answer Muslims' questions about their story, and their new faith, if they have one.

 

this is especially important for Muslims who become Christians, as Muslim understandings of Christian faith are very different from how Christians view themselves. so if the former Muslim is willing to answer these questions and dialogue respectfully and peacefully with Muslims about their new faith, this should be welcomed.

 

former Muslims should not be afraid to share their stories, and neither should converts to Islam be afraid to share their stories.

 

mariam.masihi[at]gmail(contact admin if its a beneficial link)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
actually, brother, many devout and sincere Muslims with a very good understanding of imaan and sunnah, and with great dedication to Islam to leave Islam.

 

A person cannot be a good and dedicated Muslim, and leave Islam. It is rather contradictory. The definition of "Muslim" is clear and though a person might have had guidance in their hearts at any point, they become misguided due to their own shortcomings. That is the justice of Allah.

 

Perhaps you meant that they were good and pious Muslims at some point in their lives but still ended up leaving Islam. That is understandable.

 

Salam.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Salam

 

Prophet Muhammad saw was a prophet and a messenger:

 

1. The Arabic word of the Prophet is "nabi" and the plural form is "anbiya".

2. The Arabic word for Messenger is "rasul" and the plural form is either "Rusul" or "Mursaleen"

3. The Messenger is a Prophet who receives a new law and this law is called "Risala". This word "Risala" comes from same word family as Rasul or Mursaleen.

 

4. The Qur'an is sometimes called Risala which means that Qur'an is not an Book of Narrations or a Book of Science. Risala means that it is more like an essay or a report or a letter. When you read the Qur'an you should read it like a personal letter that God Almighty sent to us. You should not read it as a story book etc.

 

The Qur'an is perfectly organized but differently than the bible, because the bible is a different kind of book and text. The Bible is a book of history and stories and there is nothing wrong with that. However, the Qur'an is more constructed like a sermon. Each Surah begins with an introduction and then the text is more like an essay or persuasive essay. You should read it like a law code. Or you should read it as an announcement or meeting minutes. There is a main theme in every surah and there are stories and different situations mentioned to underline the theme and to give examples.

Edited by Yusha

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yes, they can indeed be extremely demoralizing. What you have to remember though (and I remind myself of this constantly) is that the truth is appealing to both our rationale (logic) and our emotions. And really, it's as simple as that.

 

I got extremely demoralized at one point because I was letting myself be bombarded with anti-Islam content from all fronts. I was visiting websites that had claims of unspeakable Muslim atrocities committed during the age of the caliphates/empires. I was reading about people, including some scholars, who left Islam. I was constantly bombarded with one setback after another in the Muslim world and in Pakistan in the so-called "war on terror". I was reading about proofs against God. I was wondering why Islam has to be right, why a God at all?

 

That doubt and fear that grew and grew, I finally realized it was an emotional reaction. After calming down and analyzing my emotions and the reasons for having these doubts, I found that there was no real substantive reason behind it - I was just exasperated.

 

So what I've come to realize is this: the truth is appealing, the truth is easy, and the truth is rational.

The reasons why you have been and will be for a while encountering attacks against Islam from many different fronts are simple. The west is over its own corrupted kings, the emperor of Japan, communism, and most of the enemies it has for long pledged to defeat. It needed a new enemy. I don’t think it’s because the west is evil but merely because it’s powerful. It has to do with human nature. Muslims, just like other nations, did the same a long time ago.

Then 9/11 came as a gift to all those who sought a new enemy. And as chaotic and territorial mankind can be, it has evolved to rationalise any territorial attack before engaging in it. So before the west attacked, it needed to convince itself that it was doing the right thing. The easiest way was to focus on our differences and publicise them as threats to our civilization. Human beings like computer games about wars more than actually going to war nowadays. What happened to you is the same thing.

I think you just need to wait for it until it’s out of fashion. As funny as this may sound, it’s the unfortunate truth. I think we’ll need to focus on our similarities more than who’s right and who’s wrong. I am confident that the west will never succeed in ruling the whole world, neither will Islam, as much as fanatics from both sides would like for their fronts to prevail.

 

As for your categorization for ex-muslims, I think it’s a bit silly to assume that a muslim cannot make a rational decision (though not to you) based on their own intellectual pursuit for what they think is true to leave Islam, under no pressure, emotional distress, confusion, or hate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Salaam i have seen videos on youtube claiming of being ex muslims but after watchn then i have come to the conclusion they wernt muslim in the first place. Especially watchn ex muslim exposed videos where a youtube user has identified all theflaws and lies in the videos. It is just a propaganda of the christains against the muslims, t make a bad name, its worth checking it out. Especialy if you youtube 'Ergun Caner ex muslim exposed'. He is a chrstian leader but he claims he was muslim and he converted. Hes been in various interviews and all the clips have ben put together to show he wasnt a muslim especialy when he didnt know the shahada.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Assalamo Alaikum!

 

Muslims should not watch or read literature from people who are either ex or propagate against Islam. These people were born in Muslim homes, but, due to lack of Islamic education, or other reasons either became murthad or got influenced by unislamic environment.

 

We have cases in current existence like Salman Rushdie, two Aga Khani ladies in Canada and UK, Hershi ALi, the woman who led the Friday prayers in New York, etc. These people are not fit to call themselves Muslims as they are doing things against Islam, or propagating things that are not permitted in Islam. I met a gentleman recently on a networking forum, and he started propagating anti-Islam material. I challenged him and we started a debate. He was one of those who supported the woman imam, and had been a follower of Parvaiz. The owner of the forum became so put off by the claims by that gentleman that he deleted all our discussion, even though the man was losing ground and was unable to answer specific questions, Alhumdo Lillah.

 

Wassalam

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

thank you for this information

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I personally try to avoid stories of apostates as they are very demoralizing and sad. To know that someone held Islam within his or her grasp and simply let it go...they are the most unfortunate of people.

 

 

I agree with sister - Redeem - i try to avoid reading their stories :sl: it makes me sick ..

 

 

But i'd ask :

 

Is it possible to be some people who claim that they were Muslims but in fact, they are liars, and the purpose of that they want to show non-Muslims that they've tried Islam and claim that they did not find it true ?? is that possible ??

 

 

 

 

Thank you brother Jazaka Allahu khair for the topic ..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Is it possible to be some people who claim that they were Muslims but in fact, they are liars, and the purpose of that they want to show non-Muslims that they've tried Islam and claim that they did not find it true ?? is that possible ??

Of course it is possible, but is that the assumption we should be operating with, or should we take people at their word unless it is demonstrated convincingly that they have in fact lied? It is easy to tell which assumption we are operating with, when you hear of an apostate, do you initially think to investigate his claims to be a Muslim (this goes for any other religion as well, even atheism) or do you accept that they are telling the truth?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cefarix,

You said ... "Logic dictates we can't see our Creator!"

What if God were to dictate otherwise?

Isn't He allowed to come to a person in a vision, or a dream, etc.?

Because I really don't think He understands this.

Maybe you should instruct Him on what He can and cannot do

... to satisy the logic of Cefarix.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Isn't He allowed to come to a person in a vision, or a dream, etc.?
AllahCAN do wahtever He wants. Allah does what He wills. Please bring forth the book and light you are speaking from?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am "musim" by birth but in reality I am an AGNOSTIC. I believe all religions are "fairy stories" invented by people who were afraid of something and believed that rescue is round the corner in some divine form.

 

I like think we have evolved away from all that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very interesting, although I should caution you that it might be perceived as an attack on Islam, which is not permitted here at Islamic Forums. Also, you might want to modify your religious status to better reflect your current state.

 

Here are the (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?act=boardrules"]forum rules[/url]. Not that I wish to scare you off. In fact, I could simply be overly sensitive, since it would only be natural for an atheist to think all religions are mistaken, if not misguided.

Edited by the sad clown

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


×