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Guest Sulemaan
I dont think you saw my links.

 

The original caste system came from the gita. it never gave a heirarchy, one was not superior to another. they were all equal.

 

centuries later, brahmins became corrupted and used the caste system to perpetuate power over others. when they became corrupted, God came to earth in his icon of Buddha to teach them a lesson.

 

 

Hello Aradhan,

 

Yes, you are right I didn't see your post, anyway, thank you for contributing to this post. Let me address the caste issue first.

 

You say it was later corrupted and not in your scriptures, and I have heard this explanation from Hindu reformists before. However, I have seen some Hindus vehemently defending caste system and providing your scriptures as a proof, e.g.

 

The Gita (18-44) says : Service is the duty of Shudra

 

(Apastainbha Dharma Sutra 111, 10-26)

If a Shudra over heard a recitation of the Vedas molten tin was to be poured in to his

ears; if be repented the Vedas his tongue should be cut and if he remembered Vedic

hymns, his body was to be torn into pieces.

 

MANU 167-272 says:

If a Shudra over-heard a recitation of the Vedas motten tin was to be poured in to his ears;

 

Again MANU 167-272 says:

Let the king never slay a Brahman though he may have committed all possible crimes.

 

This is clearly favoring the Brahmins, and even if it is not directly creating the caste-system, it is clearly creating a very good foundation. Dr. Ambedkar in his book 'Why Conversion?' says:

 

"The untouchability is not a short or temporary feature, it is a permanent one. to free

yourself you must establish close relations with some other society,or join some other religion."

 

I am not an expert Hinduism, and I do not know how far Manu's Laws are applicabple to Hinduism, but it certainly seem to have an everlasting effect on the Hindu society. If this was a mere corruption, then it would not have been such an integral part of the Hindu society.

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Guest Sulemaan
I dont think you saw my links.

 

The Aryan invasion theory is false. the theory you are talking about is from decades ago. its false.

 

the natives arent shudras. the natives are in all castes. there are no aryans or aryan race. its a myth mistakenly created by Max muller and mistakenly used by Hitler.

 

dravidian is a term used to describe the people of the deccan plataeu (south india).

 

hope that clears up some confusion.

 

The Aryan invation theory is still WIDELY accepted. It is DEBATABLE but cetainly not false. Even today, it is widely accepted. It was only in the last ten to fifteen years that some historians have challenged it. Both sides present a very good case, but I prefer to follow the Aryan invation theory because it makes more sense. The sudden death of Indus Valley Civilizatation being the first reason. There are more details on this link -

 

"geocities/Athens/Ithaca/1335/Hist/fall_ind.html"]geocities/Athens/Ithaca/133...t/fall_ind.html[/url]

 

One other reason why I am wary of those who oppose the Aryan Invation theory is because this theory was first challanged by Hindutva (fundamentalist, nationalist Hinduism) forces, who wanted to prove that they are the original inhabitants of India. They needed to prove this very badly so they could justify their demands that all other races and religion should either "Hinduize" themselves or leave India. There is definitely a political motive challenging the Aryan Invasion theory.

 

A "dalitstan/books/bibai/bibai1.html"]website[/url] had these very interesting facts:

 

"Most of the European deniers of Aryan invasions, such as Koenraad Elst, Francois Gautier and David Frawley, are converts to `Hinduism', which in technical terms means one of the 6 orthodox schools of Brahmanism, generally of a Vaishnavite sub-sect. Needless to say, such persons shall not be allowed to enter the Vaishnava Jagannath temple at Puri or many other Vaisnava temples, yet these persons still like to live in a fantasy-world where they imagine themselves to be `Hindu'. Thus, David Frawley is an American convert to Vaishnavism, as is the virulently anti-Islamic Belgian Roman Catholic Koenraad Elst and Francois Gautier is a French devotee of Aurobindo. All these persons have hence adopted the `Indian Home for Aryans' hypothesis as a result of their religious persuasion."

 

And:

 

" The Denial of Aryan Invasions is central to the Hindutva ideology, a neo-Brahmanist form of Vedic fascism. This movement is famous for being involved in the organisation of pogroms against various races, notably Christians, Dalits, Sikhs and Muslims. The Denial of Aryan Invasions is accompanied by a virulent hatred of Christians and Muslims, who are dubbed as `invaders'. Sudra human-rights activists are, in this framework, dubbed as `traitors' to the `Indian' Brahmanist tradition."

 

Even if assume that the anti-aryan invastion theorists are purely scholastic, it does not mean an end to the aryan invasion theory. It is still very much existant and far from being denied or proclaimed false. As I said, the debate goes on.

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Hmm although it has not much of a connection with whats being discussed but it is what Islam tells us, as well as Christianity and Judaism to an extent.

 

Mankind was one race uptil the time of Hazrat Nuh (Noah) pbuh. The different races that we are today have sprouted from Hazrat Nuh's (pbuh) 3 sons. Noah had 4 sons but only 3 lived to procreate and Islam teaches us that all races have come from the 3 sons of Noah.

 

The First Race: The Decendants of Hazrat Saam, known as Semetic

 

Semetic : Bani Ismail (Arabs etc), Bani israel(the Hebrewites, original follows of the old testament etc), Afghan/Pashtun/Pukhtun (who are technically also Bani israel), Berbers, Assyrians, Greeks, Latin, and other Mediterrainians, African etc and so on.

 

The Second Race: The Decendants of Hazrat Haam, known as Aryans

 

Aryans : Nordic, Celtic/Gaelic, Baltic, Persian, Punjabi, Rajputs, The White Huns etc and so on.

 

The Third Race : The Decendants of Hazrat Yasik, known as Yasikites:

 

The Original Turks, the Chinese, Mongolian, Korean, Japanese, Indonesian, Malay etc the Samoans, the Ab-orignals and Maue of Australia and New-zealand, the Orignal inhabitants of the Americas (red indians, mayans, eskimos etc), Dravidians and other inhabitants of South asia etc and so on.

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Assalamualikum,

I am from Hyderabad in A.P.

in India

 

 

as salaam alikum,

same here me 4rm hyderabad....born hydro......brought up in saudi and now currentl in hyderabd...its kool out here!!

malsma

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Assalamo-alaikum

 

Dear Brother Suleman,

Your knowledge in history appears to be very sound and vast. You are also a very good writer You have already written extensively on History of India in this forum. Brother, this is "google/search?q=Islamic+forum&sourceid=mozilla-search&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official"]Islamic Forum[/url]. Will you please write now on present conditions of Muslims and Islam in India?

shah

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I dont think you saw my links.

 

The Aryan invasion theory is false. the theory you are talking about is from decades ago. its false.

 

The original caste system came from the gita. it never gave a heirarchy, one was not superior to another. they were all equal.

 

centuries later, brahmins became corrupted and used the caste system to perpetuate power over others. when they became corrupted, God came to earth in his icon of Buddha to teach them a lesson.

 

the natives arent shudras. the natives are in all castes. there are no aryans or aryan race. its a myth mistakenly created by Max muller and mistakenly used by Hitler.

 

dravidian is a term used to describe the people of the deccan plataeu (south india).

 

hope that clears up some confusion.

 

I found you............... :D

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I am from india currently living in hyderabad.....

I think most muslims in subcontinent as a whole dont understand tawhid as it should be understood

.

for eg:when the pakistani foreign minister came to Hyderabad ,he visited some darga and was photographed throwing/placing flowers on the a grave..

.Practice which

1) are contrary to Islamc teaching of respecting the grave...similar to the hindu custom

2)more over darga are meant for people to ask help and pray to the so callled saints(no longer alive) or Commit SHIRK.....

Most people in my state(kerala) just follow what the clerics say and are not concerned what the Quran

or the Sunnah says....when others talk to them about tawhid They reply in the same tone as the mushriks of mecca once did "We found our fathers doing so.,We will do the same or continue their culture............"

I wonder how many people in India actually read Quran and understand any of it.....In kerala aroung 50 years ago some clerics of certain Islamic groups forbid the translation of Quran ......Though now many

translations are there and available widly

 

I could go on and on..........to sum up Most Muslims dont even understand what Islam is all about

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I am from india currently living in hyderabad.....

I think most muslims  in subcontinent as a whole dont understand tawhid as it should be understood

.

for eg:when the pakistani foreign minister came to Hyderabad ,he visited  some darga and was photographed throwing/placing flowers on the a grave..

.Practice which

1) are contrary to Islamc teaching of respecting the grave...similar to the hindu custom

2)more over  darga are meant for people to ask help  and pray to the so callled saints(no longer alive) or Commit SHIRK.....

Most people in my state(kerala) just follow what the clerics say and are not concerned what the Quran

or the Sunnah says....when others  talk to them about tawhid They reply in the same tone as the mushriks of mecca once did  "We found our fathers doing so.,We will do the same or continue their culture............"

I wonder how many people in India actually read Quran and understand any of it.....In kerala aroung 50 years ago some clerics of certain Islamic groups forbid the translation of Quran ......Though now many

translations are there and available widly

 

I could go on and on..........to sum up Most Muslims dont even understand what  Islam is all about

Dear Brother Truthful

Assalamo-alaikum wR wB

What you have said is very right. I fully agree with you. This is a real tragedy.

May Almight Allah give "Hidayah" and show right path to all of us.

Shah

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Guest Sulemaan

Part VII - India's fight for Independence

 

India entered the 20th Century with the first movement in the direction of independence - the Swadeshi/Boycott movement (1906). It came in the wake of the Partition of Bengal. Bengal (1905), a large province primarily Hindu, but with significant Muslim population had become the literary hub of India. The British said it was being divided for administrative purposes, but the Indians claimed it was nothing more than divide and rule. It was divided into East and West Bengal. East Bengal being a Muslim majority portion and the West, predominantly Hindu.

 

The begining of the Century also saw a rise in Hindu Nationalism, which in turn forced the Muslims to carve out their identity. The Muslims who were ruthlessly crushed after the revolt of 1857, slowly began to return to the main political stream. The most notable personalities of the period are Muhammed Iqbal who dreamed of an Independent sovereign Muslim state and Muhammed Ali Jinnah who realized that dream. However, the turning point in the political history of India was the advent of Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi.

 

Gandhi led the freedom movement in a way that surpassed any leader before him. He lived like the poorest Indian, dressed like the poorest Indian and ate like the poorest Indian. To the Indians, if India was their mother, then Gandhi was their father or 'Bapuji' as he was known.

 

However, not even Gandhi could stop the gathering storm that hit India in the winter of 1946 in the form of widespread communal riots. Gandhi vowed to fast till death unless the riots ended. It helped the riots to stop briefly. By this time, the Independence of India had become an eventuality and already, the power struggle within the Indian political circles began. Jinnah demanded Pakistan and on August 14, 1947, amidst the communal carnage along the newly drawn borders, Pakistan was born. The following day, on August 15, 1947, India is declared Independent. Gandhi realizes his dream, but rues the fact that it is no more the India he had long wished.

 

On January 30, 1948, Gandhi was assaninated by a Hindu Nationalist. Many still believe that Gandhi was killed by a conspiracy and not by just one man.

Edited by Sulemaan

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Guest Sulemaan

Part VIII - Post Indepenent India

 

Prior to its Independence, India was divided into many Princely states. These princely states had enjoyed the British patronage. The British kept them as puppets to rule and govern the larger parts of the vast country.

 

The richest and largest of the princely states was the State of Hyderabad. The population of Hyderabad had 80 percent of Hindus, mostly living in the country side, and 20 per cent of Muslims, who largely lived in the historic city of Hyderabad. The history of Hyderabad is too vast and would require a volume of its own. To be brief, the Nizam of Hyderabad (ruler) wanted to join Pakistan, but it was taken by force through the Police Action in 1948** (see footnote) by the Indian government on the basis of its overwhelming Hindu population. The same logic applied to Gujarat, were the Nawab of Gujarat wanted to join Pakistan. However, quite strangely, this logic didn't apply to Kashmir, which had a majority of Muslim population and a Hindu ruler. The dispute in Kashmir resulted in the first India-Pakistan War. The war enabled Pakistan to control the northern Kashmir, which came to be known as 'Azaad Kashmir'. Ever since, Kashmir has been the cause of two major wars and countless disputes that have created a lasting enmity between the neighbors.

 

The fall of the Princely states and the migration of many Muslims to Pakistan broke the backbone of the Muslims of India. They lost both education and wealth in an instant. People who lived rich and lavish lifestyles were now struggling to make a living. This poor condition also made them easy targets of nationalist Hindus.

 

**'Police Action' refers to the forceful entry of Indian forces in Hyderabad and the killing and looting that took place. Many Muslims were killed, their women raped and their wealth looted.

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I am from india currently living in hyderabad.....

I think most muslims  in subcontinent as a whole dont understand tawhid as it should be understood

.

for eg:when the pakistani foreign minister came to Hyderabad ,he visited  some darga and was photographed throwing/placing flowers on the a grave..

.Practice which

1) are contrary to Islamc teaching of respecting the grave...similar to the hindu custom

2)more over  darga are meant for people to ask help  and pray to the so callled saints(no longer alive) or Commit SHIRK.....

Most people in my state(kerala) just follow what the clerics say and are not concerned what the Quran

or the Sunnah says....when others  talk to them about tawhid They reply in the same tone as the mushriks of mecca once did  "We found our fathers doing so.,We will do the same or continue their culture............"

I wonder how many people in India actually read Quran and understand any of it.....In kerala aroung 50 years ago some clerics of certain Islamic groups forbid the translation of Quran ......Though now many

translations are there and available widly

 

I could go on and on..........to sum up Most Muslims dont even understand what  Islam is all about

 

 

 

:D

 

yeah the practice is very bad as they tend to press their legs by pressing the grave.

They ask them for their blesings and even do Sajdah to the graves. :D

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:D

 

yeah the practice is very bad as they tend to press their legs by pressing the grave.

They ask them for their blesings and even do Sajdah to the graves.  :D

Assalamualaikum,

Its sad the even educated people do not question anything...most of them muslims here take religion as something to be done on special days or months like fridays or ramadan.

The khutba in the masjid is read from a book written by someone(i donno who ) and seems ppl come to juma'ah to finish their sleep or as a ritual.

and there are dargas(places of shirk ) everywhere..

There is no difference between a muslim and a hindu...both have a necklace around their neck which is supposed to be protect them from evil or whatever 'blessed ' by their so called 'saints'....Can anybody suggest what any muslim can do....I feel very lonely and sad......then i think that i should be selfish and take care of myself and leave everyone to their own.....

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wow !!!!!! many here from India n esp Hyderabad,

btw me too from Hyderabad errr [cyberabad] India.

btw nice info provided by Br Sulemaan

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Asalaamualaikum

 

im a late comer but yoohoo me indian toooo, mums side from hyderabad dhakan and dad's side from Rajhistan :tongue: although all the family is now in lovely karachi (in pakistan) :biggrin:

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Assalaamu alaikum,

 

So much is said about Indian muslims. But can some one post here what did he see good about Indian muslims. I being a Indian muslim, it will not be correct to boast myself.

 

shukran

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Guest Sulemaan

Assalaamalaikum,

 

The problems of grave/saint worship has plagued the entire Muslim World and not just India. The Indo-Pak subcontinent has been hit hard by this wave of deviation mainly due to deviated rulers who enforced such deviated thoughts on the populace.

 

There are today people who make 'Chhota Hajj' (Small Pilgrimage)! To any Arab that would mean Umrah, but to an Indian Muslim it means going to specific tombs of long dead saints (may Allah have mercy on them). I have seen the worse forms of deviation. There is a 'Dargah' (tomb) of a Saint where people make 'Tawaaf' around the grave of this saint. And women dip their new born child in the fountains. Such practices that are totally opposite the teachings of Islam. In addition to that, there is a lot of Shiite influence. Such false practices are being preserved by a class of people who benefit from it. The so called successors or the saints, the Murshads. They have a demigod status, where people even prostrate to them. These people are usually rich, and most of the richness comes from their followers. In the end it all comes down to business for these people. May Allah protect us from such deviation.

 

Despite all this, Alhamdulilah, it is also true that in the last ten years or so, things have improved drastically. A lot of people have given up old practices which were being blindly copied from their fathers. This was mainly due to the Gulf returned Indians who learnt true religion in the Arabian peninsula. A lot of repair work is being done now and a significant portion of the Muslim youth in India are Alhamdulillah on the right track. There is hope for the future of Islam in India, Alhamdulillah as more and more people turn to the true religion.

 

Historically, India has given the Islamic world many great scholars and Kings. The list is exhaustive, and unfortunately, I am not aware of all the names. One can refer to 'Saviours of Islamic Spirit' by Maulana Abul Hasan Ali Nadwi, one of the greatest scholars of Islam of our times, who happened to be from India. Other famous names include Shibli Nu'mani, author of Al-Farooq (the best biography of the second Caliph, Umar Radhiallahu Anhu) and Saif-ur-Rehman Mubarakpuri, author of Ar-Raheeq Al Maqtoom, the biography of Rasulallah Sallahu Alaihi Wassallam, which is now officially sanctioned by the Darrus Salaam press of Saudi Arabia.

 

So all is not that bad in India. To the credit of Indian Muslims, I must say, they are one of the most highly educated and civilized. A lot of Muslim women in India observe the Hijab, i.e. the complete veil, without any external pressure. Women in general are still very modest and family oriented.

 

However, on the down side, the advent of foreign companies and a sudden economic boost has had its affect on the Muslim society. There are signs of westernization, and an increase in demand for luxuries in life. In the ongoing struggle for survival of Islam, only time will tell where, when and how the Indian Muslim will fare.

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:D

 

According to the govt of India India has got more ppl claiming to be muslims than pakistan has .THey were telling about this in a documentary meant to convince the ppl of Kashmir to stay in India.

Indias population is above one billion..So 13.8% of that means....

we are in good numbers

 

:w:

 

Interesting stats. Indian govt and hindus always like to claim that india has more muslims than pakistan (to undermine the breakup of their so-called hindu lands and also to convince the kashmiris to be loyal to india). But lets look at independent sources.

 

According to CIA factbook, the population of india is 1.08billion (july 2005) and muslims are 12%, which is equal to approx 130 million muslims.

"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/in.html"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/in.html[/url]

 

Pakistan's population is 162 million, and there are 97% muslims, which is equal to 157 million muslims.

"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/pk.html"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/pk.html[/url]

 

Even bangladesh has more muslims than india. Bangladesh's population is 144.3 million, and muslims are 91%, which is equal to 131 million people.

"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/bg.html"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/bg.html[/url]

 

Indonesia is the largest muslim populated country. Their population is 242 million, and with an 88% muslim population, they have 213 million muslims.

"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/id.html"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/id.html[/url]

 

So here's how the ranking goes:

 

1) Indonesia

2) Pakistan

3) Bangladesh

4) India

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:D

 

Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism, and many other forms of Hinduism were as a direct result of the social inequalities in the Hindu society.

As far as I know, Sikhism does have some concepts of Hinduism but it also has some concepts of Islam too like the Oneness of God... I have read this in a pakistani book... SirGuzasht I remember :D

Mohammed Bin Qasim

now u guys know why my nick is Bin Qasim!!! :D

 

is it true?

well, I think so I am not quite sure... I did ask bro Suleimaan to enlighten us on this part but i guess he missed it :D

 

:D

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:D

 

Dec 6, the black day and history of brudality passed today...... It always remind me those days......Those brothers and sisters who secrified will always be in our dua inshallah.

Only Allah(swt) knows when this story will come to an end.

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:D

 

Every year there is curfew almost all over the India.

Many clashes take place between Muslims and Non-muslims :D .

Its bad . :D

Pray that it will end soon.*Ameen*

 

:D

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Guest amani

:D

 

:D it will end soon..but what is the reason? :D if any...

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:D

 

the reason is the demolision of a Masjid in Ayodhya on 6th December 1992.

 

it was demolished because the hindu's believe it was the birth place of Ram and there should be a Temple instead of a Masjid.

 

Many political figures were also involved but they deny any charges against them.

:D

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Asalmaualaikum warahamtullahi Wabaraktahu,

 

Man subhanAllah I remember I was in hyd, India I think five years ago for summer break. I went to this relatives of mines. They Had grave in their freakin house. I was like "what the heck?" and they said they do tawaaf around it. Man it was so disgustin...the way they think that dead person will be able to give em something. SubhanAllah.

 

my dad side peeeps are soo messed up. May Allah swt guide em to the right path, the path of pious Ameen.

 

Waslamaualaikum Warhamtullahi Wabaraktahu.

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asalamu alaykum

desigirlforeva this problem of worshipping graves is not only in india but in pakistan and i think it must be in bangladesh as well for whatever reasons but it is just like shirk. with it there are other forms of bidat's such as qawali, dancing and drinking of bhang as well. another big sin that is very common in india is the muslim men and women marrying sikhs,hindus and christians.( a muslim man can marry a pious woman from among the people of the book but a muslim woman can marry only a muslim)

may Allah keep us guided ameen

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:D

 

Many people are working to Eradicate this practice but the results are very low :D .

 

Many people are orthodox here.

 

they believe in many superstitions like not cutting hair on tuesday, etc...(which is why all barbers are closed on tue.)

 

:D

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