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Question regarding Christians' And Jews' Beliefs

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Well then, I am not here to argue with people. If you ever do want to get to know Islam let me know. Bye bye

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Islam veers from God's ordained plan and teaches a different conflicting message. It stands agianst the prophets and Jesus.
JC Believer.... the religion has always been same the message has always been same .....but prophets came time to time was to revive and revise commandments frm God .....each prophet completing his duty of reviving and passing next set of commandments . no prophet made any new religion .....when jesus came he also revised and revived the commandments but people thought this man is conflicting existing message in O.T. which earlier prophets preached and u know they said there were no more prophets after 420 BC/BCE, Malachi being the last prophet, who lived centuries before Jesus. Judaism states that Jesus did not fulfill the requirements set by the Torah to prove that he was a messiah prophet . Even if Jesus had produced such a sign, Judaism states that no prophet or dreamer can contradict the laws already stated in the Torah (Deut 13:1–5)[86]....the same thing u people of N.T. said when last messenger and last and complete set of commandments came .......Islam doesnt conflict the earlier messages but yea if u say it conflicts yr current doctrines brought by St.Paul ...then yes Islam and earlier teachings of prophets including jesus ...does conflicts what yr st.paul taught and wot u r following today .....go and read abou st.paul..who he was ? what was his basis of adding his teaching in bible which made NT book of contradictions ...when he brought those doctrines.. then u will know who is culprit in modifying the new testament....

 

It's like, why would't you all become Christians? God's authority and greatness and unity isn't really challenged if Jesus and the Holy Spirit proceeded from God. or if Christ sufferd, died, and ressurected to make salvation possible. Our line of thinking, that God is great and His Will is supreme, and God is in charge...is no different! Both of our faiths do require us to have faith in them. You couldn't prove that Gabriel gave Adam the Sacred Stone as much as I couldn't prove Jesus ressurected...except through quoting a holy book.

 

by asking y wouldnt all muslims become christians ? meaning u r tellin us to reject last testament and last prophet mohammed (peace be upon him) throw away last revised complete set commandments of God ?.......follow New Testament ..which yr people also accept that it is modified....which has only few old revised commandments which were to be followed along with first set of old commandments in the OT ... expect paradise thinkin a man has already been sacrificed for our sins... wouldnt that be deceiving ourselves ???

 

read yrself wot r the commandments in OT then read last complete set of commandments in quran ?> ...christianity on basis of N.T. is incomplete ..it carries only few commandments which were to be added to earlier commandments...rest is all narration and stories...it doesnt have anythin regardin how should one lead life......u people find it difficult to submit to will of God because u dont want to follow commandments ....u people love yr life yr way and continue the way you r doin .... u hv little fear ....coz yr church teaches u ...doctrine of great sacrifice that this man jesus died for yr sins ..........so u go and do wotever u want ...etc not worrying abou hereafter as it always behind in yr mind previously man has died for my sins .....

 

whereas jesus himself told if u want eternal life keep commandments and be good (Mathew 19:16-17 ) u eat flesh of swine i.e. pork whereas in Leviticus 11:7-8 & Deuteronomy 14:8 it is written dont eat...u people drink wine whereas in Proverbs 20:1 and Ephesians 5:18 it is said dont drink wine ....u people pray kneeling whereas in yr books it is written all prophets includin jesus prayed fellin down on face prostrating to God ( Joshua 5:14 ,Numbers 20:6 , Genesis 17:3 Mathew 26:39) ... yr women go around without covering their heads and wear revealing clothes whereas it is in Deuteronomy 22:5 , I Timothy 2:9 and I Corinthians 11:5 it is commanded to dress modestly and for women to cover their heads ...tell me

 

We by following last complete set commandment r followin OT and NT commandments more than u

 

.....u people r lost in doctrine of St.Paul u dont care wot Jesus followed - commandments which were to be followed alongside with existing commandments.

u say u submit to will of God u dont follow ! ... God is great and His Will is supreme, and God is in charge.........come submit to will of God then and start following last testament quran and commandments in it ..... but i know it is difficult for u coz...u dont seek Will God u seek the will of yr priests , family and community.. u seek easy way.... following illusions of 'love' and some1 sacrificed already for wot bad u do ..no tensions rite ? ...Learn! Learn! from life of man whom u pray !!! yr jesus and his disciples ....they accepted the new commandments along with existing commandments submitting to will of God when majority of people around them opposed them and tortured them ... if u accept last set commandments and last messenger and be good ...its for yr yrself and nothin on us...u will saved from Hellfire.... we r not interested in making anyone muslims even if full world were to turn back to idolatory it wont effect God anyway....our job is just to tell the message..if one doesnt believe then let him continue doing wotever he wants...The Day when he meets God he will come to know wot was Truth and who was adamant? ...... no point arguing further ........

 

Anywaz no hard feelings... peace :sl:

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Mac111, you know your stuff :sl: haha

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Peace mac111,

 

JC Believer.... the religion has always been same the message has always been same .....but prophets came time to time was to revive and revise commandments frm God .....each prophet completing his duty of reviving and passing next set of commandments . no prophet made any new religion .....when jesus came he also revised and revived the commandments but people thought this man is conflicting existing message in O.T. which earlier prophets preached and u know they said there were no more prophets after 420 BC/BCE, Malachi being the last prophet, who lived centuries before Jesus. Judaism states that Jesus did not fulfill the requirements set by the Torah to prove that he was a messiah prophet . Even if Jesus had produced such a sign, Judaism states that no prophet or dreamer can contradict the laws already stated in the Torah (Deut 13:1–5)[86]....the same thing u people of N.T. said when last messenger and last and complete set of commandments came .......Islam doesnt conflict the earlier messages but yea if u say it conflicts yr current doctrines brought by St.Paul ...then yes Islam and earlier teachings of prophets including jesus ...does conflicts what yr st.paul taught and wot u r following today .....go and read abou st.paul..who he was ? what was his basis of adding his teaching in bible which made NT book of contradictions ...when he brought those doctrines.. then u will know who is culprit in modifying the new testament....

 

Paul didn't teach a different doctrine. The "gospel" he often spoke of was the same one that Peter and the others believed in. All of the Apostles believes that Jesus suffered, died, and ressurected for the sins of man. In fact, you will not find a group of Christians that didn't believe this. Jesus told His disciples that He must fulfill the prophecies about Him.

 

Talk to a Jew you know, they don't even believe Satan exists! You want to tell me that people who deny Satan have any idea what they should believe?

 

 

by asking y wouldnt all muslims become christians ? meaning u r tellin us to reject last testament and last prophet mohammed (peace be upon him) throw away last revised complete set commandments of God ?.......follow New Testament ..which yr people also accept that it is modified....which has only few old revised commandments which were to be followed along with first set of old commandments in the OT ... expect paradise thinkin a man has already been sacrificed for our sins... wouldnt that be deceiving ourselves ???

 

read yrself wot r the commandments in OT then read last complete set of commandments in quran ?> ...christianity on basis of N.T. is incomplete ..it carries only few commandments which were to be added to earlier commandments...rest is all narration and stories...it doesnt have anythin regardin how should one lead life......u people find it difficult to submit to will of God because u dont want to follow commandments ....u people love yr life yr way and continue the way you r doin .... u hv little fear ....coz yr church teaches u ...doctrine of great sacrifice that this man jesus died for yr sins ..........so u go and do wotever u want ...etc not worrying abou hereafter as it always behind in yr mind previously man has died for my sins .....

 

whereas jesus himself told if u want eternal life keep commandments and be good (Mathew 19:16-17 ) u eat flesh of swine i.e. pork whereas in Leviticus 11:7-8 & Deuteronomy 14:8 it is written dont eat...u people drink wine whereas in Proverbs 20:1 and Ephesians 5:18 it is said dont drink wine ....u people pray kneeling whereas in yr books it is written all prophets includin jesus prayed fellin down on face prostrating to God ( Joshua 5:14 ,Numbers 20:6 , Genesis 17:3 Mathew 26:39) ... yr women go around without covering their heads and wear revealing clothes whereas it is in Deuteronomy 22:5 , I Timothy 2:9 and I Corinthians 11:5 it is commanded to dress modestly and for women to cover their heads ...tell me

 

We by following last complete set commandment r followin OT and NT commandments more than u

 

.....u people r lost in doctrine of St.Paul u dont care wot Jesus followed - commandments which were to be followed alongside with existing commandments.

u say u submit to will of God u dont follow ! ... God is great and His Will is supreme, and God is in charge.........come submit to will of God then and start following last testament quran and commandments in it ..... but i know it is difficult for u coz...u dont seek Will God u seek the will of yr priests , family and community.. u seek easy way.... following illusions of 'love' and some1 sacrificed already for wot bad u do ..no tensions rite ? ...Learn! Learn! from life of man whom u pray !!! yr jesus and his disciples ....they accepted the new commandments along with existing commandments submitting to will of God when majority of people around them opposed them and tortured them ... if u accept last set commandments and last messenger and be good ...its for yr yrself and nothin on us...u will saved from Hellfire.... we r not interested in making anyone muslims even if full world were to turn back to idolatory it wont effect God anyway....our job is just to tell the message..if one doesnt believe then let him continue doing wotever he wants...The Day when he meets God he will come to know wot was Truth and who was adamant? ...... no point arguing further ........

 

Anywaz no hard feelings... peace

 

 

It's equally ridiculous for Christians to want to reject the Messiah and Lord, His sacrifice (our very salvation!), and his teachings for the Quran. You've got to understand this. To us, the NT is very complete.

 

This doesn't have to be a huge argument, but you did say a few things which I want to quickly comment on.

 

About eating pork, Jesus said that it's not what we eat that makes us impure, but what we say and do that can make us impure. You put too much thought on earthly laws, like the Jews, and they became a corrupted people. God wouldn't want this to happen again, I don't think.

 

...u dont seek Will God u seek the will of yr priests , family and community

 

Jesus said that those who put their parents above God aren't worthy of His kingdom. This teaching is in both of our faiths.

 

coz yr church teaches u ...doctrine of great sacrifice that this man jesus died for yr sins ..........so u go and do wotever u want ...etc not worrying abou hereafter as it always behind in yr mind previously man has died for my sins .....

 

but that's not true! See, what I thought is true. You're faith isn't teaching you correctly about Christians. The above is hypocrisy! To go to Church every week but live in sin between, this isn't what good Christians live like! Part of believing in these doctrines you described involve living a life of morals like Jesus did.

 

 

Isaiah 53:4-6;12

4 Yet it was our infirmities that he bore, our sufferings that he endured, While we thought of him as stricken, as one smitten by God and afflicted.

5 But he was pierced for our offenses, crushed for our sins, Upon him was the chastisement that makes us whole, by his stripes we were healed.

6 We had all gone astray like sheep, each following his own way; But the LORD laid upon him the guilt of us all.

12 Therefore I will give him his portion among the great, and he shall divide the spoils with the mighty, Because he surrendered himself to death and was counted among the wicked; And he shall take away the sins of many, and win pardon for their offenses.

 

Isaiah was one of the Prophets, and lived before Jesus. No, the Quran I noticed doesn't talk about these prophecies and stuff. It says that Jesus was rescued by God and didn't die, but never explains why Christians believe our way and why that would happen.

 

In fact, Peter once told Jesus not to die for our sins, but Jesus rebuked him.

 

Matthew 16:21-23

21From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.

22Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. "Never, Lord!" he said. "This shall never happen to you!"

 

23Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."

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Talk to a Jew you know, they don't even believe Satan exists! You want to tell me that people who deny Satan have any idea what they should believe?

 

The Jews acknowledge that Satan exists. However their concept of Satan differs from Christianity's and Islam's. According to them Satan is an angel who tests people, but can not disobey God and go against God. Christianity believes in an angel that disobeyed God and went against him. Islam affirms that angels can not disobey God and reveals that Satan is of another species who have free will and will be judged on the Day of Judgement like humans - the Jinn.

 

 

It's equally ridiculous for Christians to want to reject the Messiah and Lord, His sacrifice (our very salvation!), and his teachings for the Quran. You've got to understand this. To us, the NT is very complete.

 

It is ridiculous to deny that Jesus is God when the Qur'an is the Word of God.

 

 

 

About eating pork, Jesus said that it's not what we eat that makes us impure, but what we say and do that can make us impure. You put too much thought on earthly laws, like the Jews, and they became a corrupted people. God wouldn't want this to happen again, I don't think.

 

You do nothing but conjecture here. Nobody decides of that except God.

 

 

Jesus said that those who put their parents above God aren't worthy of His kingdom. This teaching is in both of our faiths.

 

This is true along with worshiping priests and anybody besides God.

 

 

 

Isaiah 53:4-6;12

4 Yet it was our infirmities that he bore, our sufferings that he endured, While we thought of him as stricken, as one smitten by God and afflicted.

5 But he was pierced for our offenses, crushed for our sins, Upon him was the chastisement that makes us whole, by his stripes we were healed.

6 We had all gone astray like sheep, each following his own way; But the LORD laid upon him the guilt of us all.

12 Therefore I will give him his portion among the great, and he shall divide the spoils with the mighty, Because he surrendered himself to death and was counted among the wicked; And he shall take away the sins of many, and win pardon for their offenses.

 

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Insightful.

 

 

 

Isaiah was one of the Prophets, and lived before Jesus. No, the Quran I noticed doesn't talk about these prophecies and stuff. It says that Jesus was rescued by God and didn't die, but never explains why Christians believe our way and why that would happen.

 

Do you want the Qur'an to explain false beliefs and how they started? The Qur'an explains it very clearly that the Christians believe in your way because somebody decided to write something of God without any authority nor knowledge.

 

This also one of the reasons.

 

"They took their rabbis/priests and monks, as lords besides God." (Qur’an, 9:31)

 

`Adiyy ibn Hatim, a Christian who then accepted Islam, heard this verse being recited, and remonstrated, ‘They did not worship them!’ The Messenger of God replied, ‘Indeed. Surely, they (i.e. the religious leaders) prohibited the permissible for them (i.e. the people), and legitimized the prohibited for them, and [the people] followed them, and so that was their worship of them." After this the Prophet (may God bless him and his Household and grant them peace) invited `Adiyy to embrace Islam, and he accepted.

 

Moses says:

 

For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands. (Deut, 31:29)

 

Jeremiah confirms:

 

How is it that you say, We are wise and the law of the Lord is with us? But see, the false pen of the scribes has made it false. (Jer, 8:8)

 

The Law is the Torah of course.

 

 

In fact, Peter once told Jesus not to die for our sins, but Jesus rebuked him.

 

Matthew 16:21-23

21From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.

22Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. "Never, Lord!" he said. "This shall never happen to you!"

 

23Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."

 

 

There is no need to die when we can get our sins forgiven by repenting. No need for innocent people to die for you.

 

But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. Yet ye say, The way of the LORD is not equal. Hear now, O house of israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. Yet saith the house of israel, The way of the LORD is not equal. O house of israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal? Therefore I will judge you, O house of israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye. (Ezekiel 18:21-32)

 

But what about original sin?

 

Take a look at the previous verse, which preceeds the part I quoted:

 

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. (Ezek. 18:20)

 

A rather easy concept to grasp, atleast I think.

Edited by Younes Ibn Abd' al-Aziz

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The Jews acknowledge that Satan exists. However their concept of Satan differs from Christianity's and Islam's. According to them Satan is an angel who tests people, but can not disobey God and go against God. Christianity believes in an angel that disobeyed God and went against him. Islam affirms that angels can not disobey God and reveals that Satan is of another species who have free will and will be judged on the Day of Judgement like humans - the Jinn.

 

The Jinn are a curious group of beings, never mentioned once in the Bible. I wonder where they came from. The Assyrians believed in genies, and the Persians believes in jainis. Jews and Christians never believes in these things.

Can jinn possess people?

 

You do nothing but conjecture here. Nobody decides of that except God.
Matthew 15:11;17-18

11 What goes into a person's mouth does not make him dirty. But what comes out of a person's mouth makes him dirty.'

17Do you not know this? What goes into the mouth goes into the stomach, and then it goes out of the body.

18But what comes out of the mouth, comes from the heart. This is what makes a person dirty.

 

Maybe this is someone's conjecture, but this is in the NT. Seems like a fairly wise teaching to me. I could imagine Jesus saying this. The Pharisees were too big into their laws!

 

 

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Insightful.

 

You think I'm making this easy, huh? Well, I happen to believe in both accounts. This is a message about the Jewish nation, maybe. That's actually alittle more difficult to make that fit. It's also a prophecy for the Messiah, at least it fits into Christianity fairly well. The suffering, death, and ressurection is pointed to in that section.

 

And he shall take away the sins of many, and win pardon for their offenses

 

The Jews had Jesus killed, I wouldn't expect them to believe this "he" is Jesus.

 

 

 

Do you want the Qur'an to explain false beliefs and how they started? The Qur'an explains it very clearly that the Christians believe in your way because somebody decided to write something of God without any authority nor knowledge.

 

This also one of the reasons.

 

"They took their rabbis/priests and monks, as lords besides God." (Qur’an, 9:31)

 

`Adiyy ibn Hatim, a Christian who then accepted Islam, heard this verse being recited, and remonstrated, ‘They did not worship them!’ The Messenger of God replied, ‘Indeed. Surely, they (i.e. the religious leaders) prohibited the permissible for them (i.e. the people), and legitimized the prohibited for them, and [the people] followed them, and so that was their worship of them." After this the Prophet (may God bless him and his Household and grant them peace) invited `Adiyy to embrace Islam, and he accepted.

 

I can assure you, I don't worship my priest. As much as you don't worship your imam. The Sufis practically worshipped their muftis, and the Alawites worship Ali. Islam has more extreme examples of this, I think. I mean, who are Al-Sadr's millitia men willing to die for? Allah, or Al-Sadr? I see an great deal of attachment to ayatollahs and imams in the Islamic world. Isn't there truth in this?

 

 

Moses says:

 

For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands. (Deut, 31:29)

 

Jeremiah confirms:

 

How is it that you say, We are wise and the law of the Lord is with us? But see, the false pen of the scribes has made it false. (Jer, 8:8)

 

The Law is the Torah of course.

 

God said in the Bible,

Isaiah 55:11

so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.

 

God always ensures what He has to say happens. His Word is never corrupted or lost without His permission. It would seem unusual for God to allow the Torah and Gospel to become corrupted.

 

 

There is no need to die when we can get our sins forgiven by repenting. No need for innocent people to die for you.
Suppose, hypothetically, that God willed that His Son would suffer, die, and ressurect for our salvation from sin. It may seem odd to you, but if a man were to see this as God's Will, it wouldn't seem so hard to accept.

 

The Jews used to sacrifice goats and calfs for the temporary atonement of their sins, so with this logic, the sacrifice of Jesus was meant as a permanent kind of paschal offering.

 

 

 

But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. Yet ye say, The way of the LORD is not equal. Hear now, O house of israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. Yet saith the house of israel, The way of the LORD is not equal. O house of israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal? Therefore I will judge you, O house of israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye. (Ezekiel 18:21-32)

 

When these people died, and if they worked all of the laws just right, they would end up in Sheol, a place of rest that wasn't Heaven. Or Hell, but a purgatory-like place. The Jews didn't believe in Jannah like you. In my traditions, Jesus came down here and liberated these people. They were too impure to enter God's kingdom. Jesus purified them. Their sins may not have been held against them, but they needed to be cleansed of their impurity by Christ in order to enter Heaven.

 

 

But what about original sin?

 

Take a look at the previous verse, which preceeds the part I quoted:

 

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. (Ezek. 18:20)

 

A rather easy concept to grasp, atleast I think.

 

The verse above implies that children shouldn't be persecuted for their parent's mistakes. Like, the Jews today shouldn't be attacked by Hamas and Hezbollah as if they're bad invaders. All of the original Jewish invaders of Palestine are dead now. So, shouldn't israel be left alone and peace be sought with them?

 

 

Original sin is the result of us not being perfect. Only God is truly 100% perfect, so we are imperfect naturally. This was seen when Adam sinned, he was not perfect. Mankind is not perfect! So Jesus can purify our souls. We all appear as dirty rags unto God, and yet God shall clean us and make us pure. So we become suitable to be with God. Our world is plagued with temptations and so we must overcome these temptations. That's my general understanding of how it works.

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Don't the Catholics have a prayer called the "Hail Mary":

 

"Hail Mary, full of Grace,

Holy Mary, Mother of God..."?

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The Jinn are a curious group of beings, never mentioned once in the Bible. I wonder where they came from. The Assyrians believed in genies, and the Persians believes in jainis. Jews and Christians never believes in these things.

Can jinn possess people?

 

The Bible does mention the Jinn, even though it doesn't use the Arabic word. A group of the Jinn are mentioned in the Bible, the devils, just like this particular group of Jinn are called devils in the Qur'an. There are different kinds of Jinn, ranging from Muslims to Christians to devils. The Jinn have been given this special ability among others to possess people, but it is forbidden for them to possess us and they will be judged by God.

 

Well the Pharisees were rejectors of God, so they are a special group of their own. If God decided to let things be easier for the Jews he does it, if He decided things to be harder, he does it. Your opinion has bearing on the matter, nobody else's for that.

 

You think I'm making this easy, huh? Well, I happen to believe in both accounts. This is a message about the Jewish nation, maybe. That's actually alittle more difficult to make that fit. It's also a prophecy for the Messiah, at least it fits into Christianity fairly well. The suffering, death, and ressurection is pointed to in that section.

 

It can not be about the the Jewish nation and Jesus both at the same time. There is no mention of the Messiah, the Jews never used this as a prophecy for the Messiah.

 

And he shall take away the sins of many, and win pardon for their offenses

 

The Jews had Jesus killed, I wouldn't expect them to believe this "he" is Jesus.

 

You must at the verses collectively not seperately, you must look at the stuff also that contradicts your point of this servant being Jesus and then derive a conclusion.

 

 

I can assure you, I don't worship my priest. As much as you don't worship your imam. The Sufis practically worshipped their muftis, and the Alawites worship Ali. Islam has more extreme examples of this, I think. I mean, who are Al-Sadr's millitia men willing to die for? Allah, or Al-Sadr? I see an great deal of attachment to ayatollahs and imams in the Islamic world. Isn't there truth in this?

 

If your priests have forbidden or allowed you things, which are lawful and unlawful respectively in the eyes of God then you have taken them as lords beside God. Didn't you read the words of the Prophet? The ex-Christian said the same thing, that he didn't worshiped his priests.

 

‘Indeed. Surely, they (i.e. the religious leaders) prohibited the permissible for them (i.e. the people), and legitimized the prohibited for them, and [the people] followed them, and so that was their worship of them."

 

The Sufis do not worship their muftis as long as they(muftis) haven't forbidden or allowed things which God has deemed lawful and unlawful and of course as long as they don't idolize. The Alawites are nothing but idolaters. Have you seen into the hearts of Al-Sadr's men?

 

God said in the Bible,

Isaiah 55:11

so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.

 

God always ensures what He has to say happens. His Word is never corrupted or lost without His permission. It would seem unusual for God to allow the Torah and Gospel to become corrupted.

 

Of course God always ensures what He says but not things which are said falsely in His Name. Nothing happens without God's permission. The Torah and the Gospel are the Books given to Moses and Jesus, not the OT and the NT. God allows certain things to happen.

 

 

Suppose, hypothetically, that God willed that His Son would suffer, die, and ressurect for our salvation from sin. It may seem odd to you, but if a man were to see this as God's Will, it wouldn't seem so hard to accept.

 

Hypothetically it isn't odd. So we must distinguish between what is God's Will and what is not.

 

The Jews used to sacrifice goats and calfs for the temporary atonement of their sins, so with this logic, the sacrifice of Jesus was meant as a permanent kind of paschal offering.

 

This was written by a person from the OT's perspective.

 

"1) Leviticus (Chapters 1-7) detail that it has to be done by a priest. Jesus was crucified by Roman soldiers.

 

2) Blood has to be sprinkled at the altar, Leviticus (4:5-6). That was never done.

 

3) The sacrifice can't have a physical blemish, and as a Jew, Jesus was circumsized, meaning he couldn't be sacrificed. Leviticus (4:3).

 

4) Sacrifice is done person by person, not communal. Numbers (28:22)

 

5) Directs that the Paschal Lamb was NOT to be offered for the removal of sins, it was a festive offer. The sin offering would have to be on Yom Kippur. Numbers (29:11) [the day of atonement, sin offering), Leviticus (16:15) deals with the communal offering of a male goat.

 

6) Requires sacrificed Paschal Lamb to be roasted and eaten, and it’s blood used to place markings on the side-posts and lintel of the doors (Exodus 12: 7-8). This wasn't done with Jesus.

 

7) States that the sacrificial sin offering could only atone for UNINTENTIONAL sins, with few notable exceptions as stated in Leviticus (5:1-6, 20-26). It is Leviticus (6:1-7) in some Xian bibles. Numbers (15:27-31) reinforces this.

 

8) Teaches that sacrifices can only atone for sins committed PRIOR to the offering of the sacrifice. No sacrifice could ever atone for sins committed AFTER the sacrifice was offered. Thus, no sacrifice could ever atone for people born after the sacrifice was offered."

 

 

 

When these people died, and if they worked all of the laws just right, they would end up in Sheol, a place of rest that wasn't Heaven. Or Hell, but a purgatory-like place. The Jews didn't believe in Jannah like you. In my traditions, Jesus came down here and liberated these people. They were too impure to enter God's kingdom. Jesus purified them. Their sins may not have been held against them, but they needed to be cleansed of their impurity by Christ in order to enter Heaven.

 

Well this is almost the concept as in Islam that nobody's enters Paradise except by God's Grace and that God purifies us, minus of course the part where Jesus dies for our sins.

 

 

The verse above implies that children shouldn't be persecuted for their parent's mistakes. Like, the Jews today shouldn't be attacked by Hamas and Hezbollah as if they're bad invaders. All of the original Jewish invaders of Palestine are dead now. So, shouldn't israel be left alone and peace be sought with them?

 

Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. (Deut. 31:18-19)

 

Well, here's an example of the sons dying fór the sins of their fathers.

 

The innocent civilian Jews of today shouldn't be attacked as that is sinful, even a soldier who is not on duty can not be killed, otherwise it's murder. War on the israeli military is perfectly acceptable and obligatory at some point.

 

Should the seed of Amalek be left alone or the Canaanite nations in the land of israel?

 

Therefore it shall be, when the LORD thy God hath given thee rest from all thine enemies round about, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance to possess it, that thou shalt blot out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven; thou shalt not forget it. (Deut. 25:19)

 

But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee: (Deut. 20:17)

 

 

 

Original sin is the result of us not being perfect. Only God is truly 100% perfect, so we are imperfect naturally. This was seen when Adam sinned, he was not perfect. Mankind is not perfect! So Jesus can purify our souls. We all appear as dirty rags unto God, and yet God shall clean us and make us pure. So we become suitable to be with God. Our world is plagued with temptations and so we must overcome these temptations. That's my general understanding of how it works.

 

This naturally stuff not being perfect doesn't work, because even when we are purified, we will not be perfect if that means being on the same level as God. God purifies you, I agree. The Prophet knew this as he was asking God for forgiveness even when God had declared all his sins forgiven. Nobody can worship God in the way that He deserves to be worshiped, the Prophet of God realised this.

We come suitable to be with God if he accepts our sincere repentance or if He otherwise decides to forgive us even without repentance. Those who accept the true religion of God from the time of Adam to the Day of Judgement will be purified by God.

Edited by Younes Ibn Abd' al-Aziz

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hi JCBeliever

 

"They took their rabbis/priests and monks, as lords besides God." (Qur’an, 9:31)

can assure you, I don't worship my priest.

"Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition."

Mark 7:9

 

what are your catholic christians doing ?

 

The honest truth is that Catholics have been brainwashed to accept the traditional

 

teachings of the Vatican as superior to whatever the Word of God actually says.

 

Jesus plainly condemned placing the traditions of religion over the Word of God

 

(Mark 7:6-13). Psalm 118:8 admonishes, "It is better to trust in the LORD than to

 

put confidence in man." I'll give you several examples of how the Catholic religion

 

contradicts the Bible, placing man's tradition over God's Word which is same as

 

worshipping that man.

 

 

There is absolutely NOTHING in the Bible leading Christians to recognize Mary, adore

 

Mary, or talk to Mary. Although most Catholics deny worshipping Mary, a picture is

 

worth 1,000 words. u must have seen the picture of Pope John Paul II bowing to

 

Mary which is are irrefutable evidences of idolatry. Look up the word "worship" in

 

any dictionary and you'll find that Catholics do indeed WORSHIP Mary and other

 

hordes of dead saints. Those who want to fellowship with the Roman Catholic Church

 

and accept it as a true "church" are ignoring its blasphemous teachings concerning

 

Mary.

 

"Confounded be all they that serve graven images, that boast themselves of idols" -

 

Psalm 97:7

 

 

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that

 

is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under

 

the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD

 

thy God am a jealous God..." -Exodus 20:4,5

 

 

"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from

 

the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies

 

in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry,

 

and commanding to abstain from meats..." (1st Timothy 4:1-3).

 

It's almost impossible to convince a Catholic that all of their priests,

 

archbishops, cardinals, and even the Popes are heretics.Most Catholics DON'T

 

genuinely believe the Bible. Rather, they have sold their souls to a bunch of

 

religious charlatans (priests) who commit blasphemy be claiming to have the power to

 

forgive your sins.

 

When El Papa speaks, Catholics worldwide hinge on every word, as if God Himself were

 

speaking.... what it means?

 

Most Catholics have totally submitted themselves to their local priest. This is why

 

so much sexual-molesting of children has transpired over the decades within the

 

Catholic Church--because people SUBMIT to ungodly authorities which the Bible says

 

not to. We should only submit to God, and His Word.

 

 

"But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their

 

phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, And love the uppermost

 

rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, And greetings in the

 

markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi." -Matthew 23:5-7

 

 

The Bible plainly states in 1st Timothy 4:1-3 that false teachers would come to us,

 

teaching doctrine of devils: forbidding to marry, and forbidding to eat meat.

 

The celibacy requirement for all priests is a devilish doctrine. The Catholic

 

forbiddance of meat, or certain meats, on certain days, are doctrines of devils.

 

God plainly tells us to enjoy the meat He has given us to eat, as long as we are

 

thankful for it (1st Timothy 4:4).

 

Mark 7:6-13 plainly teaches that we are never to follow the traditions of men. Yet,

 

the Catholic religion is one big conglomerate of traditions fabricated over the

 

centuries. It wasn't until the year 1950 that Pope Pious XII decided to make the

 

Assumption of Mary an official Catholic doctrine, a doctrine not found anywhere in

 

the Bible.

 

 

There is NOTHING in the Bible about praying to statues. There is NOTHING in the

 

Bible about not eating meat on Fridays. There is NOTHING in the Bible about

 

worshipping the dead.The Catholic religion can't make up it's mind and keeps

 

changing it's dogma (doctrine). In fact, there is long list of Catholicism's

 

manmade heresies and when they were fabricated. Catholics just keep making it up as

 

they go.

 

 

The Jews used to sacrifice goats and calfs for the temporary atonement of their sins, so with this logic, the sacrifice of Jesus was meant as a permanent kind of paschal offering.

 

 

first of all sincere request..no insults to prophets please.. dont compare Jesus to a goat he is our prophet and we have high regard for him. secondly your concept of salvation by jesus's blood is pauline doctrine.

 

The Pauline doctrine which asserts that you can only be saved by believing that Jesus died for your sins, is called ATONEMENT.

 

In a profound contrast with the theology of Paul -- which became orthodox Christianity ("Paulianity") -- the literature of the early christians i.e. Essene Nazarene Ebionites NEVER TAUGHT SALVATION VIA BELIEF IN THE SACRIFICIAL DEATH OF JESUS ON THE CROSS. The early christian had a very one must follow THE SAVING TEACHINGS OF JESUS and keep commandments of God and keep repenting to God , not simply believe in his sacrificial death. The Essene Nazarene Ebionites based their doctrine of salvation on the actual instructions they personally received from Jesus before his crucifixion. Unlike Paul, who NEVER EVEN MET JESUS, the leaders of the Essene Nazarene Ebionites were PERSONALLY TRAINED AND INITIATED BY THEIR SPIRITUAL MASTER, JESUS.

 

In The Essene New Testament, Jesus tells his disciples

 

that blood sacrifice cannot bring salvation:

 

 

Jesus was teaching his disciples in the outer court of the Temple and one of them

 

said unto him, "Master, it is said by the priests that without shedding of blood

 

there is no remission of sins. Can blood offerings take away sin?" Jesus answered,

 

"No blood offering of beast or bird or man can take away sin. For how can the

 

conscience be purged from sin by the shedding of innocent blood? Nay, it will

 

increase the condemnation.... For sins against the Law of God there can be no

 

remission, except by repentance and amendment."

 

Mathew 19:16-17 -

Now behold, one came and said to Jesus, “Good master, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life? ”So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

 

So, Jesus made quite clear that no blood sacrifice -- not even his own -- can provide salvation for your sins; rather, you must quit sinning (repent) and follow his SAVING TEACHINGS. And that was the doctrine of salvation of the Essene Nazarene Ebionites.

 

I will begin now to describe how Paul, the self-proclaimed Apostle, violently opposed first by killing and imprisoning its leaders, then by infiltrating the movement and leading a schism. Essene Nazarene i.e. Original Christianity was still true to the teachings of Jesus, being led by James, the brother of Jesus.an historical fact described by the Apostle Peter in an ancient Essene Christian manuscript titled, THE CLEMENTINE HOMILIES AND RECOGNITIONS; we read:

 

 

 

"... the high priest of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem had often sent priests to ask

 

us that we might discourse with one another concerning Jesus: when it seemed a fit

 

opportunity, and it pleased all of our church, we accepted the invitation and went

 

up to the temple. It was crowded with people who had come to listen, many Jews and

 

many of our own brethren. First the high priest told people that they should listen

 

patiently and quietly.... Then, he began exalting with many praises the rite of

 

animal sacrifice for the remission of sins and found fault with the baptism given by

 

our Jesus to replace animal sacrifice....

 

"To him our James began to show, by abundant proof that Jesus is the Christ, and

 

that in Him are fulfilled all the prophecies which related to His humble advent.

 

For, James showed that two advents of Him are foretold: one in humiliation, which He

 

has now accomplished; the other in glory, which is yet to be accomplished....

 

 

"And when matters were at that point that they would all come and be baptized, Paul

 

and his men entered the temple: and Paul cried out: 'Oh men of israel, why are you

 

so easily influenced by these miserable men?' He began to excite the people and

 

raise a tumult... and drive all into confusion with shouting, and to undo what had

 

been done by James. Paul rebuked the priests for having listened to James, and, like

 

a madman, began to excite the priests and people to murder James and the brethren,

 

saying 'Do not hesitate; grab them and pull them to pieces.' Paul then, seizing a

 

strong brand from the altar, set the example of smiting. Then others also, seeing

 

him, joined in the beating. Much blood was shed. Although James and the brethren

 

were more numerous and more powerful they rather suffered themselves to be killed by

 

an inferior force, than to kill others. Paul attacked James and threw him headlong

 

from the top of the steps; and supposing him to be dead left him."

 

 

 

Fortunately, James, the Brother of Jesus and leader of the Essene Christians, was

 

revived by Essene healers. He and the other survivors of Paul's attack left

 

Jerusalem and went to an Essene commune to heal. Paul continued to persecute Essene

 

Christians, going from city to city with secret police agents, arresting and killing

 

many.

 

 

Then, on the road to Damascus, Paul (this is the point where he changed his name

 

from Saul to Paul) claimed to have a vision of Christ, and supposedly converted to

 

Essene Christianity. By claiming conversion, Paul was entitled to receive initiation

 

into the Essene mystery school (he entered their three year ministerial training

 

program in Damascus) and to learn the various secrets of the group, including their

 

hidden camps and underground church locations. At first, the brethren considered his

 

conversion to be authentic. Later they realized it was no real conversion: IT WAS

 

AN INFILTRATION!

 

 

Once Paul had infiltrated the group and received ordination, he began to change the

 

teachings of Jesus

 

"Paul declares that... the Elect may even eat meat sacrificed to idols.... Whereas

 

Jesus honored women and found in them his most devoted followers, Paul never tires

 

of proclaiming their inferiority. He declares that, man is the head of the woman and

 

she must always submit to his will.... Whereas the Essenes proclaimed equality among

 

the Brethren [the Essenes were the first people on earth to condemn and forbid the

 

practice of slavery], Paul repeatedly declares that Christian slaves must be

 

obedient to their Christian masters."

 

In one of the best books on early Christianity, Those Incredible Christians, Dr.

 

Hugh Schonfield reports:

 

"For the Apostolic Church much that Paul taught was grievous error not at all in

 

accord with the mind and message of the Messiah. The original Apostles could urge

 

that the truth was known by them. But Paul had never companied with Jesus or heard

 

what he said day after day [remember: Paul had never even met Jesus], and Paul's

 

visions were the delusions of this own misguided mind....

 

"It was not only the teaching and activities of Paul which made him obnoxious to the

 

Christian leaders: but their awareness that he set his revelations above their

 

authority and claimed an intimacy with the mind of Jesus, greater than that of those

 

who had companied with him on earth and had been chosen by him.... It was an

 

abomination, especially as his ideas were so contrary to what they knew of Jesus,

 

that he should pose as the embodiment of the Messiah 's will.... Paul was seen as

 

the demon-driven enemy of the Messiah.... For the legitimate Church, Paul was a

 

dangerous and disruptive influence, bent on enlisting a large following among the

 

Gentiles in order to provide himself with a numerical superiority with the support

 

of which he could set at defiance the Elders at Jerusalem. Paul had been the enemy

 

from the beginning, and because he failed in his former open hostility he had

 

craftily insinuated himself into the fold to destroy it from within."

 

In the two excerpts given directly above -- the excerpt from Larson's book and the

 

excerpt from Schonfeld's book -- six important assertions are made in regard to

 

Paul:

 

Paul taught that it was okay for the Elect to eat meat sacrificed to idols;

 

Jesus honored women and found in them his most devoted followers, but Paul

 

proclaimed the inferiority of women and said that they must obey the will of men;

 

 

The Essenes forbade slavery but Paul ordered Christian slaves to obey their

 

Christian masters;

 

 

Although Paul never met Jesus, he ignored the instructions of the Apostles who had

 

been personally trained by Jesus, replacing the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles

 

with his own very different teachings;

 

 

Paul was, in the view of the Essene Christians, the "demon-driven enemy of the

 

Messiah."

 

 

Paul had been the enemy of Essene Christianity from the beginning, and because he

 

failed in his former open hostility he had craftily infiltrated the movement to

 

destroy it from within, leading a schism which became numerically strong enough to

 

subdue the original church.

 

 

 

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. (Ezek. 18:20)

 

 

The verse above implies that children shouldn't be persecuted for their parent's mistakes. Like, the Jews today shouldn't be attacked by Hamas and Hezbollah as if they're bad invaders. All of the original Jewish invaders of Palestine are dead now. So, shouldn't israel be left alone and peace be sought with them?

 

dont link political conflicts to religion . we have to see both sides like when these ppl enter palestinian territory sometimes instead of killin militant fellow they destroy buildings full of innocent people because of misinformation . imagine which child will control himself when he sees he own innocent parents dying in front of them by israelis , they become mentally imbalanced and they want only revenge so they join militant etc and dont care about what Islam says coz they hv revenge only in minx....if we link political conflicts with religion ... hitler should hv considered this verse who killed 6 million innocent jews ? some historians say that hitler a devout christian and he held jews to responsible for death of christ ...what was sin of those innocent jews to be brutally killed by this hitler .... many modern day good christians are so sad when they hear this and call him atheist christian....... imagine nowadays all this militants use name of jihad .. ther whole religion of Islam is at BLAME....when muslims say Islam is not related to their actions , they r deviant atheist extremists nobody believes

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Peace everyone,

 

Don't the Catholics have a prayer called the "Hail Mary":

 

"Hail Mary, full of Grace,

Holy Mary, Mother of God..."?

 

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee.

Blessed art thou among women,

and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.

Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners

Now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

 

 

It can not be about the the Jewish nation and Jesus both at the same time. There is no mention of the Messiah, the Jews never used this as a prophecy for the Messiah.

 

You must at the verses collectively not seperately, you must look at the stuff also that contradicts your point of this servant being Jesus and then derive a conclusion.

 

Whether Isaiah was aware he was writing about the Messiah is irrelevant. God was speaking through him, by holy inspiration of the Spirit of God. What was said is for a reason, and if it can be seen as something fulfilled by Jesus the Messiah, than it should be accepted as this. If it's also some complicated personification of the Jewish people, then fine. If that's what some believe Isaiah was refering to, then that shouldn't be a problem. All I know for certain is that what was said in Isaiah 53 unmistakably fits the Christian concepts of Jesus, and to me it's a valid proof.

 

 

If your priests have forbidden or allowed you things, which are lawful and unlawful respectively in the eyes of God then you have taken them as lords beside God. Didn't you read the words of the Prophet? The ex-Christian said the same thing, that he didn't worshiped his priests.

 

‘Indeed. Surely, they (i.e. the religious leaders) prohibited the permissible for them (i.e. the people), and legitimized the prohibited for them, and [the people]followed them, and so that was their worship of them."

 

The Sufis do not worship their muftis as long as they(muftis) haven't forbidden or allowed things which God has deemed lawful and unlawful and of course as long as they don't idolize. The Alawites are nothing but idolaters. Have you seen into the hearts of Al-Sadr's men?

 

I'm not aware of my priest telling me to do unchristian things. What I know is that priests don't achieve this cult-status that many of these shieks and mullahs and ayatollahs achieve. The Pope being an exception;).

 

Of course God always ensures what He says but not things which are said falsely in His Name. Nothing happens without God's permission. The Torah and the Gospel are the Books given to Moses and Jesus, not the OT and the NT. God allows certain things to happen.
Well, by God's permission, a persecuted sect of heretical Jews became the #1 world religion. How should I interpret this sign? The very empire[the Romans] that sought to exterminate the Christians became a Christian empire, by God's intervening. Would God support those who commit terrible shirk against Him? Bear in mind that the Christians didn't have a fanatical and powerful army to defend them, like Muslims. The blood of many martyrs is all we had, and God's promise to always be with us.

 

 

 

Hypothetically it isn't odd. So we must distinguish between what is God's Will and what is not.

 

How can we do this?

 

The last few things you stated can be addressed at once, I think.

 

Understand that Jesus was not literally a "human sacrifice", like how savages sacrifice their king (and eat him!). The concept of Jesus suffering for our salavtion can be "equated" to how the Jews would sacrifice blood for their sins. Why God would send His Son into the world to suffer and die for us when He could have just willed and it would be is a fundemental difference between our faiths. God wished to demonstrate His Love for us by having Christ physically bear our sins and free the captives in Sheol the old-fashioned way, and ressurect thus destroying sin's power over death. This doctrine would require a longer paragraph to truly describe! But the geenral idea is that to me, God willed that Jesus's life would be a certain way...and that He would be the key for our salvation, and will rule us as King and Lord in the New Earth.

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Peace mac111,

 

You've said alot of things, but they can be addressed fairly simply.

 

About Paul, this discussion already went on under Islamic-Western Dialogue in "Bible Foretells The Story Of The Chapter Of "al-alaq""

 

Paul once sought to kill Christians as a fanatical rabbi, but Jesus appeared to him and he was a changed man. If Jesus appeared to you, you'd also be a changed man!

Jesus told His disciples three times that he would have to go to Jerusalem, suffer and die for our sins, and ressurect. This doctrine is clearly in the Gospels. Prophecy would seem to attest to this, also.

 

Catholicism is a faith with hiearchy and order. This ensure doctrinal order and unity. Protestants, with no leadership, have fell into many sects and groups. Of course, ignorance is not bliss and you should know better than to think the Church is unchristian! Please don't approach me with nonsense like this.

 

Hitler killed many priests and clergymen and Christians for speaking against him. This man was very unchristian!!! His reasons for despising Jews was because they were polluting and abusing the German people. This man was a fascist in every sense of the word!

 

 

The honest truth is that Catholics have been brainwashed to accept the traditional

teachings of the Vatican as superior to whatever the Word of God actually says.

 

:sl:

 

Well, not me at least!

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If your so sure your on the right path then why are you here? You are not here to learn about Islam so what are you here for?

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Paul once sought to kill Christians as a fanatical rabbi, but Jesus appeared to him and he was a changed man. If Jesus appeared to you, you'd also be a changed man!

Anani in this site below also said that he is a changed man after he knows Jesus, but it doesn't change a fact that he is a liar(?). The same thing about the priests in Africa (recently) and all over the world that have said that they have been inspired by Jesus in order to cover up their crimes that they did or the crimes that they are planning to do.

 

Doubt cast on Anani's terrorist claims

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetcanada(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/windsorstar/story.html?id=4a479502-4490-408e-bdb5-f2638619a62c"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetcanada(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/windsorstar/story.ht...b5-f2638619a62c[/url]

 

Wassalam,

Yasnov

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Double post

Edited by Yasnov

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Peace everyone,

 

Wa alaikum

 

 

Whether Isaiah was aware he was writing about the Messiah is irrelevant. God was speaking through him, by holy inspiration of the Spirit of God. What was said is for a reason, and if it can be seen as something fulfilled by Jesus the Messiah, than it should be accepted as this. If it's also some complicated personification of the Jewish people, then fine. If that's what some believe Isaiah was refering to, then that shouldn't be a problem. All I know for certain is that what was said in Isaiah 53 unmistakably fits the Christian concepts of Jesus, and to me it's a valid proof.

 

You just proved the Jews right: There is a great deal of circular reasoning involved here. People start with Jesus being the Messiah, Jesus suffered, Isaiah 53 is about one who suffers, so Isaiah 53 must be about the Messiah!

 

 

I'm not aware of my priest telling me to do unchristian things. What I know is that priests don't achieve this cult-status that many of these shieks and mullahs and ayatollahs achieve. The Pope being an exception;).

 

Seriously, didn't you understand my other posts?

 

Your priests have told you to do Christian things, but it happens to be that these Christian things aren't what God has allowed.

 

Well, by God's permission, a persecuted sect of heretical Jews became the #1 world religion. How should I interpret this sign? The very empire[the Romans] that sought to exterminate the Christians became a Christian empire, by God's intervening. Would God support those who commit terrible shirk against Him? Bear in mind that the Christians didn't have a fanatical and powerful army to defend them, like Muslims. The blood of many martyrs is all we had, and God's promise to always be with us.

 

The same thing can be said of Muslims. The early Muslims were persecuted and the "empire" that sought to exterminate them became a Muslim Caliphate. Everything happens by God's permission. God allows even the badest of things to happen. The Muslims of the time of the Prophet didn't have a fanatical or powerful army, they were always on the verge of extinction. Maybe "fanatical" in the sense that they put their trust in God and didn't fear death but certainly not powerful, quite to the contrary. Yet always at those times when all the odds pointed out to the fact that they'd be wiped out, the Prophet was prophecising of future victories.

 

Understand that Jesus was not literally a "human sacrifice", like how savages sacrifice their king (and eat him!). The concept of Jesus suffering for our salavtion can be "equated" to how the Jews would sacrifice blood for their sins. Why God would send His Son into the world to suffer and die for us when He could have just willed and it would be is a fundemental difference between our faiths. God wished to demonstrate His Love for us by having Christ physically bear our sins and free the captives in Sheol the old-fashioned way, and ressurect thus destroying sin's power over death. This doctrine would require a longer paragraph to truly describe! But the geenral idea is that to me, God willed that Jesus's life would be a certain way...and that He would be the key for our salvation, and will rule us as King and Lord in the New Earth.

 

Why not just forgive us like He promised in Ezekiel if we repent?

Edited by Younes Ibn Abd' al-Aziz

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Wa alaikum

You just proved the Jews right: There is a great deal of circular reasoning involved here. People start with Jesus being the Messiah, Jesus suffered, Isaiah 53 is about one who suffers, so Isaiah 53 must be about the Messiah!

 

Okay, you read Isaiah 53 and read the Gospels. Read Psalm 22 also. There are a great many more. Circular reasoning my pet fish! This is Prophecy, and if you want to follow the Jews than go ahead. They're an interesting ancient people, stubborn as anything though. Their Messiah could be walking among them and they wouldn't notice!

 

In fact, ask me one day and I can tell you the story of Jesus with just prophecies! I'd venture to say that if the OT was corrupted, these prophecies wouldn't come true..because they would be corrupted. Christianity would just be an odd, out-of-place religion.

 

 

 

Seriously, didn't you understand my other posts?

 

Your priests have told you to do Christian things, but it happens to be that these Christian things aren't what God has allowed.

That is subjective. Priests are just like imams and rabbis. In fact, the Quran says monks and priests are very good people.

 

 

The same thing can be said of Muslims. The early Muslims were persecuted and the "empire" that sought to exterminate them became a Muslim Caliphate. Everything happens by God's permission. God allows even the badest of things to happen. The Muslims of the time of the Prophet didn't have a fanatical or powerful army, they were always on the verge of extinction. Maybe "fanatical" in the sense that they put their trust in God and didn't fear death but certainly not powerful, quite to the contrary. Yet always at those times when all the odds pointed out to the fact that they'd be wiped out, the Prophet was prophecising of future victories.

 

Okay, so God wills that both of us believe that our faiths survived by His intervention and will. Why? To mislead us? Why would God let the disbelievers prevail. I still think it's quite interesting that God gave Constantine the Great a vision that converted him to Christianity. He told him to put the image of the Chi-Rho (a Christian simple that looks like a P and X together) on his army's shields and they would defeat Maxentius. They won! In fact, without the Roman empire converting to Christianity, Christianity wouldn't be the #1 faith today.

 

Also, God, by His permission, allowed the Christians to retake Spain, and the Spanish spread Christianity to all of South America. That's a big proportion of Christians you know, these devout Latinos. Now if God wished that Islam would remain in Spain, then all of South America would be Muslim, and by far Islam would be the #1 religion.

 

 

Why not just forgive us like He promised in Ezekiel if we repent?

 

Ezekiel 18:21

"But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die.

 

He will live in what state after death? In God's Paradise? Or in the Sheol. I know we had this conversation before. The Jews didn't even believe in a Paradise. Just Hades, or Sheol. Typical of ancient religions to have a dim afterlife. Frankly, I don't want to sit in Sheol but be with God in Paradise.

 

 

 

Okay Younes, after reading through the threads you showed me to read, this stood out the most:

 

1. Proof of Divine Revelation = miracles, prophecies, otherwise humanly inaccessible knowledge, divine characteristics that can be testable today that render revelations impossible to have come from anyone but God.

 

2. Textual authentication through an unbroken chain of transmitters, to insure the doctrine is the same as the one the Prophet originally taught.

 

#1, from my standpoint, is Prophecy. That's the Christian's proverbian nuclear weapon when it comes to proving and vaerifying our faith is valid...at that same time showing the continued integrity of the Old Testament. This absolutely fits #1, every word of it.

 

#2, same. I can attest this also. John the Baptist (Yahya) came right before Jesus, I mean right before Jesus started His ministry. John said that he was not even worthy to unwind the sandals of the One who would come to him (John 1:27). John 1:35, John says "Now I have seen and testified that He[Jesus] is the Son of God".

 

What is recorded in the Christian Bible was from an unbroken chain of transmitters, and was recorded by an evangelists and attested to by letters of holy men. #1 can verify #2.

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Anani in this site below also said that he is a changed man after he knows Jesus, but it doesn't change a fact that he is a liar(?). The same thing about the priests in Africa (recently) and all over the world that have said that they have been inspired by Jesus in order to cover up their crimes that they did or the crimes that they are planning to do.

 

Doubt cast on Anani's terrorist claims

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetcanada(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/windsorstar/story.html?id=4a479502-4490-408e-bdb5-f2638619a62c"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetcanada(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/windsorstar/story.ht...b5-f2638619a62c[/url]

 

Wassalam,

Yasnov

 

This guy sounds like he was a hard-core Islamic fanatic, and this fanaticism remained in him when he converted to Christianity. Fanaticism is a mental conditioning, you know. It becomes a part of a person's personality. His father tried to asassinate him! I don't know of a man who could be normal in his mind with these circumstances!

 

This is strangely similar to Paul's conversion. Paul was a fanatical person, and that fanaticism remained a key part of his personality when he was an anti-Christian rabbi to a Christian Apostle. God must have chosen him for his strong fanatical spirit.

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Okay, you read Isaiah 53 and read the Gospels. Read Psalm 22 also. There are a great many more. Circular reasoning my pet fish! This is Prophecy, and if you want to follow the Jews than go ahead. They're an interesting ancient people, stubborn as anything though. Their Messiah could be walking among them and they wouldn't notice!

 

"What you've quoted for me are OT prophecies.

 

The WRITERS of the NT were VERY VERY VERY well versed in the OT. They

 

obviously read it, they knew it well. Especially Paul, who studied with the

 

Pharisees for all his life for God's sake! He was an OT expert!

 

Remember the example I gave you about how a Prophecy can made to be true if

 

you know the original text well?

 

Person A writes a prophecy on a paper and hides it somewhere

 

100 years later, Person B finds that paper, reads the Prophecy, and writes

 

down that the Prophecy was fulfilled this year (when in fact it wasn't or

 

it was unclear or he was unsure, it doesn't matter, the point is that in

 

reality, it never happened but Person B THOUGHT it did though).

 

100 years later, Person C reads the Prophecy of Person A, then the

 

"fulfillment" in Person B's writing, and decides that the Prophecy must

 

have come true.

 

This is a logical fallacy, because Person B relied on Person A to KNOW what

 

the Prophecy is, so he looked for ways to make it fulfilled.

 

A TRUE Prophecy is fulfilled, when it happens regardless of who knew about

 

it and especially when it is recorded by someone who didn't even know it

 

was a Prophecy in the first place."

 

This was written by a person concerning OT prophecies.

 

I don't follow Jews nor Christians, I am just explaining it to you from their point of view. And I have to agree with them on this.

 

 

That is subjective. Priests are just like imams and rabbis. In fact, the Quran says monks and priests are very good people.

 

No, it isn't subjective.

 

 

Okay, so God wills that both of us believe that our faiths survived by His intervention and will. Why? To mislead us? Why would God let the disbelievers prevail. I still think it's quite interesting that God gave Constantine the Great a vision that converted him to Christianity. He told him to put the image of the Chi-Rho (a Christian simple that looks like a P and X together) on his army's shields and they would defeat Maxentius. They won! In fact, without the Roman empire converting to Christianity, Christianity wouldn't be the #1 faith today.

 

I do not know why specifically God let false religions survive. The best bet is that it is a test for you.

 

 

Also, God, by His permission, allowed the Christians to retake Spain, and the Spanish spread Christianity to all of South America. That's a big proportion of Christians you know, these devout Latinos. Now if God wished that Islam would remain in Spain, then all of South America would be Muslim, and by far Islam would be the #1 religion.

 

The number of followers doesn't make a religion right nor wrong. The Jews were at some point true believers and yet they were few. Being number one in the world doesn't make a religion right nor wrong. Neither does the amount of money make you the best person in the eyes of God, otherwise the Believers would be the richest on the Earth today. You are using a rather Atheist line of thinking with me here, I've only seen this type of reasoning coming from Atheists.

 

 

 

He will live in what state after death? In God's Paradise? Or in the Sheol. I know we had this conversation before. The Jews didn't even believe in a Paradise. Just Hades, or Sheol. Typical of ancient religions to have a dim afterlife. Frankly, I don't want to sit in Sheol but be with God in Paradise.

 

The Jews might've not believed in Paradise but they do not believe in an afterlife where you just sit in Hell.

 

 

 

Okay Younes, after reading through the threads you showed me to read, this stood out the most:

 

1. Proof of Divine Revelation = miracles, prophecies, otherwise humanly inaccessible knowledge, divine characteristics that can be testable today that render revelations impossible to have come from anyone but God.

 

2. Textual authentication through an unbroken chain of transmitters, to insure the doctrine is the same as the one the Prophet originally taught.

 

#1, from my standpoint, is Prophecy. That's the Christian's proverbian nuclear weapon when it comes to proving and vaerifying our faith is valid...at that same time showing the continued integrity of the Old Testament. This absolutely fits #1, every word of it.

 

I do not think that the OT fits the NT 100%, but I agree with you that 1# can be prophecy.

 

#2, same. I can attest this also. John the Baptist (Yahya) came right before Jesus, I mean right before Jesus started His ministry. John said that he was not even worthy to unwind the sandals of the One who would come to him (John 1:27). John 1:35, John says "Now I have seen and testified that He[Jesus] is the Son of God".

 

What is recorded in the Christian Bible was from an unbroken chain of transmitters, and was recorded by an evangelists and attested to by letters of holy men. #1 can verify #2.

 

The point about John was irrelevant since that has nothing to do with textual authentication.

 

Can you prove to me that the text which Matthew wrote was indeed well preserved? What was the manner with which it was preserved?

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"What you've quoted for me are OT prophecies.

 

The WRITERS of the NT were VERY VERY VERY well versed in the OT. They obviously read it, they knew it well. Especially Paul, who studied with the Pharisees for all his life for God's sake! He was an OT expert! Remember the example I gave you about how a Prophecy can made to be true if you know the original text well?

 

Person A writes a prophecy on a paper and hides it somewhere 100 years later, Person B finds that paper, reads the Prophecy, and writes down that the Prophecy was fulfilled this year (when in fact it wasn't or it was unclear or he was unsure, it doesn't matter, the point is that in reality, it never happened but Person B THOUGHT it did though). 100 years later, Person C reads the Prophecy of Person A, then the "fulfillment" in Person B's writing, and decides that the Prophecy must have come true.

 

This is a logical fallacy, because Person B relied on Person A to KNOW what the Prophecy is, so he looked for ways to make it fulfilled. A TRUE Prophecy is fulfilled, when it happens regardless of who knew about it and especially when it is recorded by someone who didn't even know it was a Prophecy in the first place."This was written by a person concerning OT prophecies.

 

I don't follow Jews nor Christians, I am just explaining it to you from their point of view. And I have to agree with them on this.

 

Two things, first is why people would make such a wild story about Jesus that made martyrs out of many, and also, there were specific things about the Messiah and King that was to happen a certain way, such as riding into Jerusalem on a donkey, and being born of a virgin in Bethlehem, and things like this that the Gospel writers quoted all the time.

For more than one man to fulfill even a handful of these prophecies would be statistically impossible.

 

The Jews believed that evereything concerning the Messiah would happen at once. They reject Jesus as the Messiah because "people are still suffering in the world", they'll say that often. Christians believe that the Messiah came once, fulfilled things, and will come again to fulfill some final things and put an end to suffering and evil.

 

 

I do not know why specifically God let false religions survive. The best bet is that it is a test for you.
Or a test for both of us. I do think God intervenes in this world. Not everything can all be random occurences that we ascribe to God or Satan.

 

The number of followers doesn't make a religion right nor wrong. The Jews were at some point true believers and yet they were few. Being number one in the world doesn't make a religion right nor wrong. Neither does the amount of money make you the best person in the eyes of God, otherwise the Believers would be the richest on the Earth today. You are using a rather Atheist line of thinking with me here, I've only seen this type of reasoning coming from Atheists.

 

The intervention by God leading to larger populations of Believers, I feel, does mean something. God must wish that many people would follow His intended religion. Do you believe that God intervenes in history? The Muslims could very well have kept Spain, or instance, and Islamisized the New World. The Christian kingdoms were more into fighting themselves anyways. The vision of Mary in Guadeloupe brought millions to Christianity, maybe this means something. Or actual near death experiences were people see Jesus Christ...can we dismiss all of this as nonsense? Christian priests excorsize demons, not imams. One starts to see "things" that are unique to Christianity.

 

Since I believe in God, this atheist line of thinking can used as it should.

 

 

No, it isn't subjective.
What about the Ayatollah Khomeni? Muslims would willingly die for him, and he made up all sorts of laws and rulings.

 

 

The Jews might've not believed in Paradise but they do not believe in an afterlife where you just sit in Hell.

 

I think Sheol is more like a "purgatory".

 

 

The point about John was irrelevant since that has nothing to do with textual authentication.

 

Can you prove to me that the text which Matthew wrote was indeed well preserved? What was the manner with which it was preserved?

 

How should I be able to do this? I'd say the Holy Spirit ensured that all was written down correctly and preserved so the people who compiled the Bible included it. But in the other thread, you stated the Holy Spirit "doesn't cut it". I mean, what do you want me to say? Matthew applies the "prophecies" in a coherent way so that the Gospel appears believable. I'm convinced that these Gospels are truth.

 

John the Baptist came at the same time as Jesus to prepare the way for Him. Do you believe this in Islam? What was Yahya's purpose, immediately preceding Jesus.

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Two things, first is why people would make such a wild story about Jesus that made martyrs out of many, and also, there were specific things about the Messiah and King that was to happen a certain way, such as riding into Jerusalem on a donkey, and being born of a virgin in Bethlehem, and things like this that the Gospel writers quoted all the time.

For more than one man to fulfill even a handful of these prophecies would be statistically impossible.

 

Some of those prophecies aren't even about the Messiah according to the Jews. The Chrisitians have a weird line of thinking, everything that is similar in the OT to the NT account of Jesus must be about the Messiah which is circular logic. Why would people make these wild stories? There can be many reasons.

 

The Jews believed that evereything concerning the Messiah would happen at once. They reject Jesus as the Messiah because "people are still suffering in the world", they'll say that often. Christians believe that the Messiah came once, fulfilled things, and will come again to fulfill some final things and put an end to suffering and evil.

 

Of course we Muslims believe that Jesus(pbuh) will return.

 

Or a test for both of us. I do think God intervenes in this world. Not everything can all be random occurences that we ascribe to God or Satan.

 

Satan has no power. Everything event happens by the Will of God.

 

 

The intervention by God leading to larger populations of Believers, I feel, does mean something. God must wish that many people would follow His intended religion. Do you believe that God intervenes in history? The Muslims could very well have kept Spain, or instance, and Islamisized the New World. The Christian kingdoms were more into fighting themselves anyways. The vision of Mary in Guadeloupe brought millions to Christianity, maybe this means something. Or actual near death experiences were people see Jesus Christ...can we dismiss all of this as nonsense? Christian priests excorsize demons, not imams. One starts to see "things" that are unique to Christianity.

 

God directs history. It wouldn't matter even if Islam made the whole New World Muslim it wouldn't still be proof its Divinity. It wouldn't matter if Buddhism took over the world, it wouldn't have no bearing on the Truth. Seeing visions of people isn't unique to Christianity and those visions can be easily explained. Imams do excorcize demons. There is also another explanation why the demons get out of a possessed body when a Christian priest does an exorcism.

 

 

What about the Ayatollah Khomeni? Muslims would willingly die for him, and he made up all sorts of laws and rulings.

 

It depends on your intentions when it comes to dying for Ayatollah Khomeini. I'm not gonna take your word about Imam Khomeini making up laws unless you have proof.

 

I think Sheol is more like a "purgatory".

 

The Jews say that there is a world to come and it's not a purgatory.

 

How should I be able to do this? I'd say the Holy Spirit ensured that all was written down correctly and preserved so the people who compiled the Bible included it. But in the other thread, you stated the Holy Spirit "doesn't cut it". I mean, what do you want me to say? Matthew applies the "prophecies" in a coherent way so that the Gospel appears believable. I'm convinced that these Gospels are truth.

 

There are two ways to test this. First is to know what methodology the Church fathers used. Second is to test their claim of having the Holy Spirit.

 

John the Baptist came at the same time as Jesus to prepare the way for Him. Do you believe this in Islam? What was Yahya's purpose, immediately preceding Jesus.

 

Not to prepare the way for the son of God atleast. To confirm Jesus(pbuh)'s Prophethood, yes. His(pbuh) purpose was to call the Children of israel to God just like Jesus(pbuh) his cousin did.

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Some of those prophecies aren't even about the Messiah according to the Jews. The Chrisitians have a weird line of thinking, everything that is similar in the OT to the NT account of Jesus must be about the Messiah which is circular logic. Why would people make these wild stories? There can be many reasons.

 

Circular logic is like saying the Quran is true because the Quran says it's true, or like the NT contains the truth because people in the NT say so. That may work well to many people, but some want more proof. Prophecy is the proof that Christians desire to feel comforted their beliefs about Jesus are true. And you could absolutely not tell such a complete story about Jesus with prophecies if they were forced to fit an odd shape.

 

Some things Jesus fulfilled, that were very specific.

There are a few prophecies in Zechariah

 

Zechariah 9:9 -- Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, they King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ######, and upon a colt the foal of an ######.

 

Zechariah 11:12,13 -- And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prized at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.

 

Okay, and in the Gospels, Jesus road into Jerusalem on a donkey and the people praised Him. He was this divine King the prophets spoke of. In the other passage, God Himself makes a comment on how the people put 30 pieces of silver of His head, corresponding to how Judas put 30 pieces of silver on Jesus's head. The only way for a price to be put on God's head is if Jesus were God in nature and had 30 pieces of silver priced on His head. Do you see? These things are very specific and coherent. If this were all some strained attempt to fit unrelated stuff for a bogus story, that would show, right.

 

 

Of course we Muslims believe that Jesus(pbuh) will return.
When Jesus came the first time, do you believe He was to fulfill prophecies?

 

 

Satan has no power. Everything event happens by the Will of God.

 

Everything event happens by the Will of God

 

Very true.

 

Satan has no power.

 

very untrue. Satan has powers, or evil would cease. He plays our minds like a fiddle. Sometimes his demons can possess people.

 

 

God directs history. It wouldn't matter even if Islam made the whole New World Muslim it wouldn't still be proof its Divinity. It wouldn't matter if Buddhism took over the world, it wouldn't have no bearing on the Truth. Seeing visions of people isn't unique to Christianity and those visions can be easily explained. Imams do excorcize demons. There is also another explanation why the demons get out of a possessed body when a Christian priest does an exorcism.
Okay, give me an example of a mass vision Muslims had of one of your revered men or women.

Demons are exorcised when they hear the name of Jesus Christ and are confronted by crucifix and holy water and Christian prayers. These spirits attest to Jesus in their own perverted way.

 

It depends on your intentions when it comes to dying for Ayatollah Khomeini. I'm not gonna take your word about Imam Khomeini making up laws unless you have proof.

 

I thought he gave edicts and fatwahs and stuff. Are you Sunni or Shiite?

 

 

Not to prepare the way for the son of God atleast. To confirm Jesus(pbuh)'s Prophethood, yes. His(pbuh) purpose was to call the Children of israel to God just like Jesus(pbuh) his cousin did.

 

Malachi 3:1 -- Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

 

and in the gospels:

 

Matthew 11:9,10 -- [Jesus speaking of John the Baptist] But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet. For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

 

In my beliefs, John came to prepare the way for God Himself, as Jesus. This is what the prophets said. I mean, how else will a prophet come and prepare the way for God? That just wouldn't make sense at all unless in this Christian context.

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Circular logic is like saying the Quran is true because the Quran says it's true, or like the NT contains the truth because people in the NT say so. That may work well to many people, but some want more proof. Prophecy is the proof that Christians desire to feel comforted their beliefs about Jesus are true. And you could absolutely not tell such a complete story about Jesus with prophecies if they were forced to fit an odd shape.

 

Some things Jesus fulfilled, that were very specific.

There are a few prophecies in Zechariah

 

Zechariah 9:9 -- Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, they King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ######, and upon a colt the foal of an ######.

 

Zechariah 11:12,13 -- And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prized at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.

 

Okay, and in the Gospels, Jesus road into Jerusalem on a donkey and the people praised Him. He was this divine King the prophets spoke of. In the other passage, God Himself makes a comment on how the people put 30 pieces of silver of His head, corresponding to how Judas put 30 pieces of silver on Jesus's head. The only way for a price to be put on God's head is if Jesus were God in nature and had 30 pieces of silver priced on His head. Do you see? These things are very specific and coherent. If this were all some strained attempt to fit unrelated stuff for a bogus story, that would show, right.

 

First of all it doesn't say anything about a Divine king, since in Hebrew there are no greater or lower cases. Though it can very possibly be a prophecy of the Messiah.

 

When Jesus came the first time, do you believe He was to fulfill prophecies?

 

I do not know. What I know for sure is that the Jews who rejected him had no right to do so.

 

Everything event happens by the Will of God

 

Very true.

 

Satan has no power.

 

very untrue. Satan has powers, or evil would cease. He plays our minds like a fiddle. Sometimes his demons can possess people.

 

You didn't understand my point. What I meant is that everything that Satan does happens too by the Will of God, so ultimately he has no power. If God were to decide that Satan's plans would not work, they simply would not work. Do you understand? Your Satan sounds more like our Satan.

 

 

 

Okay, give me an example of a mass vision Muslims had of one of your revered men or women.

Demons are exorcised when they hear the name of Jesus Christ and are confronted by crucifix and holy water and Christian prayers. These spirits attest to Jesus in their own perverted way.

 

I can not give you an example and to be truthful I'd be quite worried if Muslims had since those visions are the Satans. They will use anything to mislead you, they'll appear to you as Buddha, Jesus, Mary and the list goes on and on. The satans only go out of the person because they want you to believe that it is Christ who is doing it, it is a perfect method for misleading a person to get him to think that it is the power of Christ that drove the satan out, when in fact he left willingly.

 

 

I thought he gave edicts and fatwahs and stuff. Are you Sunni or Shiite?

 

Fatwas are fine if they conform to the Qur'an and Sunnah.

 

 

Malachi 3:1 -- Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

 

This come must not be understood in a literal sense, since it talks of God.

 

 

In my beliefs, John came to prepare the way for God Himself, as Jesus. This is what the prophets said. I mean, how else will a prophet come and prepare the way for God? That just wouldn't make sense at all unless in this Christian context.

 

It must not be taken literally otherwise you'll have to take this literally too:

 

I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. (Psalm 2:7)

 

Every Prophet shows the people the Right Path.

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Prophecies to Identify the Messiah, Which Jesus Does Not Fulfill:

 

1) Matthew 1:23 says that Jesus (the messiah) would be called Immanuel, which means "God with us." Yet no one, not even his parents, call him Immanuel at any point in the bible.

 

2) The Messiah must be a physical descendant of David (Romans 1:3 & Acts 2:30). Yet, how could Jesus meet this requirement since his genealogies in Matthew 1 and Luke 3 show he descended from David through Joseph, who was not his natural father because of the Virgin Birth. Hence, this prophecy could not have been fulfilled.

 

3) Isaiah 7:16 seems to say that before Jesus had reached the age of maturity, both of the Jewish countries would be destroyed. Yet there is no mention of this prophecy being fulfilled in the New Testament with the coming of Jesus, hence this is another Messiah prophecy not fulfilled.

 

 

 

Prophecies Christians Use to Verify Jesus as the Messiah, Yet Clearly Fail:

 

4) The gospels (especially Matthew 21:4 and John 12:14-15) claim that Jesus fulfills the prophecy of Zechariah 9:9. But the next few verses (Zechariah 9:10-13) show that the person referred to in this verse is a military king that would rule "from sea to sea". Since Jesus had neither an army nor a kingdom, he could not have fulfilled this prophecy.

 

5) Matthew (Matthew 2:17-18) quotes Jeremiah (Jeremiah 31:15), claiming that it was a prophecy of King Herod’s alleged slaughter of the children in and around Bethlehem after the birth of Jesus. But this passage refers to the Babylonian captivity, as is clear by reading the next two verses (Jeremiah 31:16-17), and, thus, has nothing to do with Herod’s massacre.

 

6) John 19:33 says that during Jesus’ crucifixion, the soldiers didn’t break his legs because he was already dead. Verse John 19:36 claims that this fulfilled a prophecy: "Not a bone of him shall be broken." But there is no such prophecy. It is sometimes said that the prophecy appears in Exodus 12:46, Numbers 9:12 & Psalm 34:20. This is not correct. Exodus 12:46 & Numbers 9:12 are not prophecies, they are commandments. The israelites are told not to break the bones of the Passover lamb, and this is all it is about. And Psalm 34:20 seems to refer to righteous people in general (see verse Psalm 34:19, where a plural is used), not to make a prophecy about a specific person.

 

7) "When israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt." Hosea 11:1. Matthew (Matthew 2:15) claims that the flight of Jesus’ family to Egypt is a fulfillment of this verse. But Hosea 11:1 is not a prophecy at all. It is a reference to the Hebrew exodus from Egypt and has nothing to do with Jesus. Matthew tries to hide this fact by quoting only the last part of the verse ("Out of Egypt I have called my son").

 

8) "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." Micah 5:2 The gospel of Matthew (Matthew 2:5-6) claims that Jesus’ birth in Bethlehem fulfils this prophecy. But this is unlikely for two reasons.

 

A) "Bethlehem Ephratah" in Micah 5:2 refers not to a town, but to a clan: the clan of Bethlehem, who was the son of Caleb’s second wife, Ephrathah (1 Chronicles 2:18, 2:50-52 & 4:4).

 

B) The prophecy (if that is what it is) does not refer to the Messiah, but rather to a military leader, as can be seen from Micah 5:6. This leader is supposed to defeat the Assyrians, which, of course, Jesus never did. It should also be noted that Matthew altered the text of Micah 5:2 by saying: "And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Judah" rather than "Bethlehem Ephratah" as is said in Micah 5:2. He did this, intentionally no doubt, to make this verse appear to refer to the town of Bethlehem rather than the family clan.

 

Statements Jesus Made Which Are False:

 

9) Jesus in John 14:12 & Mark 16:17-18 said: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth in me, the works that I do shall he also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father." This implies that Jesus’ true followers should be able to routinely perform the following tricks: 1) cast out devils, 2) speak in tongues, 3) take up serpents, 4) drink poisons without harm, and 5) cure the sick by touching them and MANY other of Jesus’ "works". Curiously I have yet to see a Christian that can do any of the above on demand.

 

10) In John 14:13-14 Jesus stated: "And whatsoever ye ask in my name I do, that the Father may be glorified in the son. If ye ask any thing in my name, I will do it." In reality, millions of people have made millions of requests in Jesus’ name and failed to receive satisfaction. This promise or prophecy has failed completely.

 

11) Paul says Christianity lives or dies on the Resurrection (1 Corinthian 15:14-17). Yet Jesus said in Matthew 12:40 that he would be buried three days and three nights as Jonah was in the whale three days and three nights. Friday afternoon to early Sunday morning is only one and a half days, so he could not have been the messiah by his own and Paul’s admission.

 

12) Jesus’ prophecy in John 13:38 ("The #### shall not crow, till thou [Peter] hast denied me three times") is false. Mark 14:66-68 shows the #### crowed after the first denial, not the third.

 

13) In Mark 10:19 Jesus said: "Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, do not steal, do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother." Jesus needs to re-read the Ten Commandments. There is no Old Testament commandment against defrauding. The only relevant statement about defrauding is in Leviticus 19:13 , which says : "Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbor." This is an OT law, but is not listed with the Ten Commandments. Surely, if Jesus was god incarnate he would know the commandments.

 

14) "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven" (John 3:13). If Jesus is in heaven, how can he be down on earth speaking? Moreover, according to 2 Kings 2:11 ("and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven") Jesus was not the only person to ascend into heaven, nor was he the first. Elijah preceded him and apparently Enoch did also ("And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him"--Genesis 5:24).

 

15) In Luke 23:43 Jesus said to the thief on the cross, "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise." This obviously has to be false, for Jesus was supposed to lay dead in the tomb for three days following his crucifixion.

 

1 6) Jesus says : "Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thine enemy" (Matthew 5:43). This statement does not exist in the OT either. In fact, Proverbs 24:17 says, "Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth, and let not thine heart be glad when he stumbleth…"

 

17) Jesus is reported to say: "The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it" (Luke 16:16). Certainly every man is not pressing to enter the kingdom of God. The very fact that I am an atheist (one third of the world’s population does not believe in a god) proves this verse to be false.

 

18) "Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the Sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are blameless?" (Matthew 12:5) Nowhere does the OT state that the priests in the temple profaned the Sabbath and were considered blameless.

 

19) "Yea; have ye never read, 'Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise'" (Matthew 21:16). Jesus is quoting Psalm 8:2, which says, "Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies…". "Perfect praise" has little to do with "ordaining strength because of thine enemies." Another misquotation!

 

20) "But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him" (Mark 9:13). There are no prophecies in the OT of things that were to happen to Elijah.

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I don't really have the time to go through every one of these, but a few should enlighten you.

 

1) Matthew 1:23 says that Jesus (the messiah) would be called Immanuel, which means "God with us." Yet no one, not even his parents, call him Immanuel at any point in the bible.

 

Many people, like me, believed Jesus was "God with us".

 

2) The Messiah must be a physical descendant of David (Romans 1:3 & Acts 2:30). Yet, how could Jesus meet this requirement since his genealogies in Matthew 1 and Luke 3 show he descended from David through Joseph, who was not his natural father because of the Virgin Birth. Hence, this prophecy could not have been fulfilled.
Christ came from the "house" of David. He was Joseph's son, so a son of David.

 

 

3) Isaiah 7:16 seems to say that before Jesus had reached the age of maturity, both of the Jewish countries would be destroyed. Yet there is no mention of this prophecy being fulfilled in the New Testament with the coming of Jesus, hence this is another Messiah prophecy not fulfilled.

 

That seems to correspond to the belief Christians have. That Jesus's family took him to Egypt and they lived there until king Herod died. Two, well maybe there was another guy who wanted Jesus dead too. Herod had a loyal general.

 

 

As for prophecies Christians use, some of those were encrypted messages that God wished to be in the Bible. They may have seemed like relating to other people, but Jesus fulfilled them. Many prophecies were directly about the Messiah and King, so don't be fooled.

 

As for the other things, there are reasons. An atheist's anaylsis isn't a very good one. There are apologetics that handle things like this.

Jesus isn't a genie, some of these things are figurative.

 

PS.

When you copy and past things, you should give a link, or specify the site.

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And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

 

(Qur'an Al-Tawba 9:30)[using large font size is not allowed]

 

 

 

 

Muhammad Asad is a jew who converted to Islam and this is what he says about this verse:

 

This statement is connected with the preceding verse, which speaks of the erring followers of earlier revelation. The charge of shirk ("the ascribing of divinity [or "divine qualities"] to aught beside God") is levelled against both the Jews and the Christians in amplification, as it were, of the statement that they "do not follow the religion of truth [which God has enjoined upon them]".

 

As regards the belief attributed to the Jews that Ezra (or, in the Arabicized form of this name, `Uzayr) was "God's son", it is to be noted that almost all classical commentators of the Qur'an agree in that only the Jews of Arabia, and not all Jews, have been thus accused.

 

(According to a Tradition on the authority of Ibn `Abbas - quoted by Tabari in his commentary on this verse - some of the Jews of Medina once said to Muhammad, "How could we follow thee when thou hast forsaken our giblah* and dost not consider Ezra a son of God?")

 

(*[Qiblah in arabic] when the Muslims changed the direction of worship i.e. from Bayt Al Maqdis [in Jerusalem] to Masjid Al-Haraam in Makkah)

 

 

On the other hand, Ezra occupies a unique position in the esteem of all Jews, and has always been praised by them in the most extravagant terms. It was he who restored and codified the Torah after it had been lost during the Babylonian Exile, and "edited" it in more or less the form which it has today; and thus "he promoted the establishment of an exclusive, legalistic type of religion that became dominant in later Judaism" (Encyclopaedia Britannica, 1963, vol. IX, p. 15).

 

Ever since then he has been venerated to such a degree that his verdicts on the Law of Moses have come to be regarded by the Talmudists as being practically equivalent to the Law itself: which, in Qur'anic ideology, amounts to the unforgivable sin of shirk, inasmuch as it implies the elevation of a human being to the status of a quasi-divine law-giver and the blasphemous attribution to him - albeit metaphorically - of the quality of "sonship" in relation to God. Cf. in this connection Exodus iv, 22-23 ("israel is My son") or Jeremiah xxxi, 9 ("I am a father to israel"): expressions to which, because of their idolatrous implications, the Qur'an takes strong exception. (Asad, Message of the Qur'an)[using large font size is not allowed]

 

 

..the quote that I gave from Muhammad Asad, a former Jew himself, who pointed out that, as mentioned in At-Tabari's tafsir, some Jews came to the Prophet Muhammad pbuh and said, "How can we follow you when you do not believe Uzayr is the son of God?".

 

Notice that the Qur'an doesn't say that the Jews believe Uzayr is the son of God, but the Qur'an is very precise in saying that the Jews say Uzayr is the son of God. Thus, it cannot be a contradiction in any way since the Qur'an is only responding to the verbal proclamation of a group of Jews!

 

 

 

Also interesting is Dr. Muhammad Mohar Ali's comments on this issue:

Of course there is no evidence in the extant Old Testament about it; but the Qur'an was not referring to what is written in the Old Testament about 'Uzayr but to the belief and assertion of some of the Jews of the time who regarded 'Uzayr as the son of God. In fact the 'ayah in question, 9:30, starts with the expression: "And the Jews say". The commentator Al-Baydawi, to whome Watt refers a number of times in his book, (fn. Watt, Muhammad's Mecca, 108, note 2 to Chapter 1 and notes 2 and 10 to Chapter III) makes it clear with reference to this 'ayah that because the Old Testament was given its present form by 'Uzayr, many of the Jews of the time considered him a "son of God" and that specifically at Madina there was a group of Jews who held that belief. Al-Baydawi futher points out that the 'ayah in question was read out and recited as usual but no Madinan Jew came forward with a contradiction (fn.Al-Baydawi, Tafsir, I, second Egyptian impression, 1968, p. 412). It is to be noted that this 'ayah is unanimously regarded as Madinan. Hence the silence of the Jews of the place on the matter is suggestive enough, particularly as they were avowed critics of the Prophet.

Not only Al-Baydawi but also other commentators mention that the 'ayah refers to the views of a particular group of the Jews. For instance, Al-Tabari bives a number of reports together with their chains of narrators specifically mentioning the leading Jews of Madina who considered Uzayr a son of God. The most prominent of those Jews were Finhas, Sullam ibn Mishkam, Nu'man ibn Awfa, Sha's ibn Qays and Malik ibn al-Sayf (fn. Al-Tabari, Tafsir, XIV, 201-204). Similarly, Al-Qurtubi mentions the same fact and the same names adding that the expression "the Jews" occuring at the beginning of the 'ayah means "some particular Jews", just as the expression "people told them" (qala lahum al-nas) means not all the people of the world but some particular people. He further says that the Jewish sect who held that 'Uzayr was God's son had become extinct by his (Al-Qurtubi's) time (fn. Al-Qurtubi, Tafsir, Pt. VIII, 116-117). (Muhammad Mohar Ali, The Qur'an and the Orientalists, Jam'iyat 'Ihyaa' Minhaaj Al-Sunnah 2004, p. 66)

 

 

 

So as for what he quotes,

 

 

 

Quote:

Notice the words "proposed" and "assumption". There are no records from any Jewish community that believed Ezra was the Son of God!

 

 

First of all, this is the fallacy of argumentum ad ignorantium which we can refute with the expression, "absence of proof is not proof of absence". In other words, just because we don't have Judaic records that shows that Jews believed this, does not prove that no Jews ever believed this!

 

 

Secondly, as was previously mentioned, there are specific historical narrations related by Qur'anic commentators like Al-Baydawi and At-Tabari which state the names of specific Jewish leaders who came forward to the Muslims and said "We cannot believe you since you do not accept Uzayr as the son of God". And notice that the Qur'an doesn't say that the Jews believed Uzayr was the son of God, it says quite clearly that they said he was the son of God. So, the Qur'an was responding to an explicit proclamation of the Jews. Either the Jews were intentionally lying, or they actually believed what they said - but in any event the Qur'an can't be wrong since the Jews of Madinah actually said this.[using large font size is not allowed]

Edited by Yusha Isra'eel

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