Jump to content
Islamic Forum
Abu Alfa Umar

Can A Muslim Join The Fbi, Mi5, Or Any Intelligence Agency

Recommended Posts

:sl:

 

:sl:

 

For more information please read these articles the prohibition of spying on Muslims:

 

############lutonmuslims.co.uk/spying.htm

######kalamullah######/fatwa08.html

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"############islamicawakening######/viewarticle.php?articleID=1064&"]############islamicawakening######/viewarticl...cleID=1064&[/url]

and

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"######islamqa######/index.php?ref=26964&ln=eng&txt=spy"]######islamqa######/index.php?ref=26964&amp...eng&txt=spy[/url]

 

On the other hand, there is paranoia where some muslims spy on others in order to see if the former are spies. How is that any better? Spying is spying. That is unacceptable behavior, since it is usually done based on mere assumptions. It is one thing to be careful and another when someone uses twisted logic to think that two wrongs could make one right.

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"######islamqa######/index.php?ref=5413&ln=eng&txt=spy"]######islamqa######/index.php?ref=5413&ln=eng&txt=spy[/url]

 

I agree, both are wrong! Except doing it for the kufaar is apostasy, while doing it for oneself or for Muslims MAY constitute disobedience ONLY, because in Islamic government the MUHTASIB has the right through the Islamic courts to investigate into those Muslims suspect of hypocrisy and spying on Muslims.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
PropellerAds

Everyone has their price, muslims more than most , cold hard cash goes a long way. Offer them enough money they'd have their mothers banged up in prison. Look at the Middle East - give a few of them enough cash and they'll screw over their own countrymen.

 

Personally I think they're an economic imperfection and shouldn't be able to work or live in the UK - much better that they dig oil for us in their own filth ridden countries where they belong, and spend their free time lobbing off heads in a dark ages blood fest.

 

{Moderator note}

This post violated forum rule #33. Action taken. View (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?act=boardrules"]details[/url].

 

{Moderator note}

This post violated forum rule #40. Action taken. View (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?act=boardrules"]details[/url].

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Moderators, please ban me, I hate you all.

 

The backlash against you muslim terrorists hasn't even begun yet - and you are all terrorists.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Everyone has their price, muslims more than most , cold hard cash goes a long way. Offer them enough money they'd have their mothers banged up in prison. Look at the Middle East - give a few of them enough cash and they'll screw over their own countrymen.

 

Personally I think they're an economic imperfection and shouldn't be able to work or live in the UK - much better that they dig oil for us in their own filth ridden countries where they belong, and spend their free time lobbing off heads in a dark ages blood fest.

 

Your post is interesting because it reveals a innate fear that you have of Muslims! The fact is that we are in the WEST and have been an integral part of the west and like it or not, we WILL be the dominant culture of the WEST. Whatever you say negative about Muslims and Islam, it can been shown goes to the 100th power to western culture and future!

The fact is the west has NO future except through and by means of Islam and the Muslims! So get use to it! And even if you dont, your sons and daughters will gladly join the folds of Islam and perhaps give you a chance of redemption ion the Next Life!

 

So you should be glad that we are here in the west! We constitute the sole lie of defense against your eventual self destruction!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I meant the "sole line of defense", my bad! Why is it that this forum doent have a edit icon that would allow me to edit my post? lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Moderators, please ban me, I hate you all.

 

The backlash against you muslim terrorists hasn't even begun yet - and you are all terrorists.

 

HMM! I know this tone! Its the same tone and self righteousness that the Nazi Party, the KKK and other 'white nationalist' racist have been regurgitating for years! What? Are you afraid that we will make your lily white daughters Muslims? LOL! To bad! There's NOTHING you can do about it! As for your blacklash! We're use to it and immune from it! Well except for those 'moslem' colonized clones of yours who want NOTHING MORE than to be a carbin copy of you! LOL

 

As for terrorist, YOU would know wouldnt you, since you historically terrorized the entire planet! LOL!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The backlash against you muslim terrorists hasn't even begun yet - and you are all terrorists.

 

I pity you. It must be a real burden having all of that hatred nestled in your heart. And I find it incredibly ironic when people like you accuse others of being barbaric, when your words reek of ignorance, poor upbringing and let's not forget the key ingredient; stupidity.

 

Brother Abu Alfa, I was trying to prove a point to people who were saying that spying is okay.

 

Salam

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I pity you. It must be a real burden having all of that hatred nestled in your heart. And I find it incredibly ironic when people like you accuse others of being barbaric, when your words reek of ignorance, poor upbringing and let's not forget the key ingredient; stupidity.

 

Brother Abu Alfa, I was trying to prove a point to people who were saying that spying is okay.

 

Salam

 

Keep up the DAWA!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi all

 

now not only am i ashamed of what my other white brother said but looking at your reactions i feel very silly i ever thought you guys where different. So you WILL be the dominant culture of the WEST hey? my turn to LOL. I have my own extreme views but choose not to air then but to try and learn and see what you guys really where all about. But as you have now told me your mate Osama is a muslim i feel i have no more to say on the matter of Islam. Other than to wipe my shoes in the face of any muslim i see. My child will be taught israel is the land of peace and you guys are the enemy. Thank you for setting my mind straight on you all i no longer feel any shame abut our war.

 

Peace ( if you guys know the meaning of this word )

 

maybe this link will help save some of you (you are not allowed to post links yet)"############masada2000######/Islam.html"]############masada2000######/Islam.html[/url]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

http:// ###### . masada2000. org /Islam .html

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hi all

 

now not only am i ashamed of what my other white brother said but looking at your reactions i feel very silly i ever thought you guys where different. So you WILL be the dominant culture of the WEST hey? my turn to LOL. I have my own extreme views but choose not to air then but to try and learn and see what you guys really where all about. But as you have now told me your mate Osama is a muslim i feel i have no more to say on the matter of Islam. Other than to wipe my shoes in the face of any muslim i see. My child will be taught israel is the land of peace and you guys are the enemy. Thank you for setting my mind straight on you all i no longer feel any shame abut our war.

 

Peace ( if you guys know the meaning of this word )

 

maybe this link will help save some of you (you are not allowed to post links yet)"http://############masada2000######/Islam.html"]############masada2000######/Islam.html[/url]

 

LOL! Dont use me as a justification for your nature! You know you were not waiting for my statements to make the decision to be an imperialist! You guys have been doing it since the 16th century! LOL! And each century and in every invasion you came up with another EXCUSE for slaughtering people of color around the world, including Muslims! LOL!

 

As for Usama, he's NOT my mate! He was actually yours! You guys trained him, employed him and deployed him in your proxy war with Russia in Afghanistan! Now the Frankenstein that YOU created and unleashed is now striking back at Dr. Frankenstien! LOL! Its like was Malcom X said: "Its the chickens coming home to roost!"

 

As for as what you think about us, LOL! It doesnt matter because Islam is the fastest growing religion and cultural affinity in the west! And there aint NOTHING a neo-nazi, prisoned tattoed, closet KKK can do about it! LOL! Except of course watch while your sons, daughters, brothers, sisters and even parents become Muslim!

 

Actually, I'm wrong there is something else you can do, which seems a rising trend now days among ameriKKKan and UK forces - YOU CAN ALWAYS KILL YOURSELF! LOL

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

hi all

 

hehe i love all the indeep anger and hate this religion of peace is giving out i mean wow you are a real nice peaceful sub-human being aint you mate hehe, please carry on with ur hate filled preaching its just more ammo for the rest of the real world to feed off of. Maybe one day we will be as peaved off as you and start killing ourselves at market squares all over the world hehe, just make sure your suicide bomber rates dont get higher than the join rate as you may start losing numbers. Maybe we should have left Russia to it hey? or was it ok when we were saving ur sorry little excuse for a country? wow we been doing it since the 16th century yer your right were new comers to this killing of innocents because of religion Islam has been doing it since well hehe about 1400 years. 270 million non-believers were murdered by Muslim jihadists.

Islam destroyed the Christian Middle East and Christian North Africa. It is estimated that upwards of 60 million Christians were slaughtered during this conquest. Also, half the Hindu civilization was annihilated and 80 million Hindus murdered.

Islamic jihad also destroyed over 10 million Buddhists. hmm IslamIC CIVILIZATION? What an oxymoron! Well ill carry on enjoying my women, drink, sex and continue with the odd laugh at your peaceful religion while you wait ( in vain ) for your day when your peaceful god destroys the world and everyone in it hehe that is if Islam dosnt destroy it first lol the only thoughts i have is at least when you blow yourself up to kill us infidels ull be dead and not know that ur just rotting back into the earth that made you in the first place. My thoughts will be with you all and i will contuine feeling sorry for you all in just the same way i always have before coming to this forum seeking to change my views on your farce sorry religion

 

oh yeah Peace hehe :sl:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rep, I'm not sure I understand where all of your negative words are coming from. I've often read your previous comments and you seem like a nice, down-to-Earth type of person. Why the sudden outbursts against Islam?

 

Salam.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hi all

now not only am i ashamed of what my other white brother said but looking at your reactions i feel very silly i ever thought you guys where different.

 

Do sloop-whatever's words represent your personal feelings? If not, would it be fair if someone categorized both of you into the same group and referred to you and him as bigots simply because you happen to be non-Muslims?

 

Because you say "looking at your reactions I feel very silly I ever thought you guys were different". Would it be right to judge hundreds of Muslims on this forum based on a couple of responses? (To which I even wonder why you would judge Muslims based on personal criticism I had on an obviously bigoted person, therefore it is actually brother Abu Alfa's response that has caused this reaction in you).

 

I have my own extreme views but choose not to air then but to try and learn and see what you guys really where all about.

 

What are your extreme views? My own personal views would be that Islam be taught to the rest of the world so that people will come to learn it and accept it (willingly, I might add in case someone out there gets an idea).

 

Extremism is discouraged in Islam. Moderation is the only way to live.

 

Thank you for setting my mind straight on you all i no longer feel any shame abut our war.

 

Rep, why do I get the feeling that your mind was already made up? I mean no offense, but all it took was one person to make you reach this point. If I met a white supremist who believed that all other people should be eradicated off the face of the Earth, I wouldn't say "Well, thanks for setting the record straight, I'm now positive that all white people are evil and I will hate every single last one of them". Because people are individuals, even in Islam.

 

hehe i love all the indeep anger and hate this religion of peace is giving out i mean wow you are a real nice peaceful sub-human being aint you mate hehe

 

You say the religion is giving out the anger, does that make sense? Religion is not a living thing. It is the person that is angry, not the religion.

 

Maybe one day we will be as peaved off as you and start killing ourselves at market squares all over the world hehe, just make sure your suicide bomber rates dont get higher than the join rate as you may start losing numbers.

 

Who is this "you"? Because for those of us reading this, we're obviously not suicide bombers, correct? Otherwise we would have been dead by now.

 

wow we been doing it since the 16th century yer your right were new comers to this killing of innocents because of religion Islam has been doing it since well hehe about 1400 years. 270 million non-believers were murdered by Muslim jihadists.

 

You've been misinformed that Islam has been terrorizing people since 1400 years ago. And who are these 270 milion people killed by Muslims?

 

Islam destroyed the Christian Middle East and Christian North Africa. It is estimated that upwards of 60 million Christians were slaughtered during this conquest. Also, half the Hindu civilization was annihilated and 80 million Hindus murdered.

 

Christianity never controlled the Middle East nor did it control North Africa. If it had, then Saudi Arabia would have been a Christian nation when prophet Muhammad had been born.

 

And who are all of these 80 million Hindus and 10 million buddhists? I would appreciate some sources.

 

My thoughts will be with you all and i will contuine feeling sorry for you all in just the same way i always have before coming to this forum seeking to change my views on your farce sorry religion

 

No reason to feel sorry for me (my life is wonderful, alhamdullilah), but you should be a bit more open-minded towards groups of people. We're not one large body with one big brain, feeling the same things and thinking the same thoughts.

 

Salam.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Layna / All

 

Firstly im sorry i went off on one but being called a "neo-nazi, prisoned tattoed, closet KKK" well didnt go down to well with me on a personal level. A neo-nazi i am not, prisoned tattooed im not sure of ( is it to mean i was tattooed in prison or i am/ have been in prison? ). Well i do have a tattoo of a nice Celtic design on my bicep ( are tattoos allowed in Islam? im not sure but please dont judge me on my younger years hehe ) but it wasnt done in prison. Or do you mean "imprisoned" in which case no i have never been in prison ( though some choose to be imprisoned by there religion ).

 

Are you afraid that we will make your lily white daughters Muslims? Why would we be? or should that be "Should we be? you tell me? Its not as if ALL Muslims are terrorists is it? well? Why portray yourself like that when trying to call me a KKK memeber and neo-nazi.

As for the "Lilly white" part, well whos the raciest now? i NEVER ONCE said anything about your COLOUR? Is it ok for "Moderate" Muslims to be raciest , man!! it dont seem to peaceful to me. If you had said that to my face i would ...you know what forget it I hear a raciests brain aint to big so maybe you can be forgiven. But remember Abu YOU are the RACIEST one here i only have a problem with religion as a whole.

 

"Do sloop-whatever's words represent your personal feelings? If not, would it be fair if someone categorized both of you into the same group and referred to you and him as bigots simply because you happen to be non-Muslims?

Because you say "looking at your reactions I feel very silly I ever thought you guys were different". Would it be right to judge hundreds of Muslims on this forum based on a couple of responses? (To which I even wonder why you would judge Muslims based on personal criticism I had on an obviously bigoted person, therefore it is actually brother Abu Alfa's response that has caused this reaction in you)."

 

I do not share many feelings with Sloop no ( if Sloop has the capacity to think that is ). On this note do Muslims distinguish between Kaffar? IE is there good and bad kaffar? or are all non believers Kaffar as well as the followers of the book "O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. [al-Ma'idah 5:51.11]" not based on a couple of responses but your peaceful book? Remember you are asking me to know the difference between Moderate and Extreme by words and reactions alone.

 

Yes you hit the nail on the head as i stated i am ashamed of that sloop even being from the UK but yes it was Abu's attack which angerd me IE "we WILL be the dominant culture of the WEST" ( which SEEMS to be the thought of all Muslims ) firstly why would we want to embrace a religion which is threatening to Dominate me and my people? Secondly. "the west has NO future except through and by means of Islam and the Muslims! So get use to it!" Who has no future? Look at the state of the middle east then look at the UK? hmm we have nice parks, buildings without bullet holes and bombs going off every week...who has a future mate please. If you were happy and have a future in your homelands why try force Islamic law on another country? ( Is that not why you hate the west so much? two wrong make a right hey? ) We CHOOSE to live differently to you, and you ARE free to believe what ever you like UNTIL it imposes on others. That is the problem Islam is NOT tolerant of other religions or beliefs as it says so in your Koran ( yes i have read it through it is a English translation rather than the real Koran ) i will add verse numbers if you wish. Anyway im going off topic here so....

 

"What are your extreme views? My own personal views would be that Islam be taught to the rest of the world so that people will come to learn it and accept it (willingly, I might add in case someone out there gets an idea)."

 

My views next just let me give you a thought. Your own personal view is fine that would be great but....Islam CAN be taught to everyone who chooses to accept it. UK laws are wonderful in that respect. So you open your doors and put a sign up saying "Come learn the wonders of Islam here" and if I CHOOSE to learn it i can walk in your door and learn it. You can even knock on my door at home and offer me insight into your religion without a problem BUT i can also say NO sorry mate im not interested and ask you to leave. Could this happen in an Islamic state? If not who are acting like bigots?

 

Extremism is discouraged in Islam. Moderation is the only way to live.

 

Muslims are encouraged to be wholly occupied (Sura 2:273) with fighting for Allah's cause.- Allah will give "a far richer recompense to those who fight for him" (Sura 4:96).

- Regarding infidels (unbelievers), they are the Muslim's "inveterate enemies" (Sura 4:101). Muslims are to "arrest them, besiege them and lie in ambush everywhere" (Sura 9:5) for them. They are to "seize them and put them to death wherever you find them, kill them wherever you find them, seek out the enemies of Islam relentlessly" (Sura 4:90). "Fight them until Islam reigns supreme" (Sura 2:193). "Cut off their heads, and cut off the tips of their fingers" (Sura 8:12).

 

"seek out the enemies of Islam relentlessly" What ACTUALLY go looking for fights is being moderate & peaceful?

 

THIS is moderate? ( before you think im a follower of the book i think the same of the Old testament, very brutal. But remember these books were written in very early years, CAN they be relevant now)

 

 

Now to my views ( I am wondering which views you actually mean because sorry i wasnt very clear before i mean i have quite extreme views on religion as a whole i was not pin-pointing Islam on its own)

 

but here go's ( But please i am answering truthly to a question but it is only MY opinion im not saying im right your wrong or this is the only way its just my view no-one elses )

 

As a whole i see religion as a type of "Positive thinking" so to speak. It makes people feel good so its great for human relations. I also feel maybe it was a form of primitive crowd control. To put in place a bit of moral order to the people, who lets face it in those times wernt always very nice. Now i dont blame religion ( Religion is good on its own) for all the wrongs i blame the leaders who use it as a "Tool" to get people on there side or to "Dominate" other country's ( Not unlike Osama using Islam to get at America cos of his grudge with them) I am NOT saying America are in the right far from it, i personally hate there politics just seemed a good example. I dont remember seeing mass demonstrations and bombings from the general ( Moderate )Middle Eastern people when we were helping you stop Russia invading you, do you? ( Other than the extremists who said the moderates were betraying there people and lands but as your all Moderate Muslims you know what i mean right? ) Do you feel it was wrong to help stop Russia attacking you ? would like to know the answer to this :sl:

 

People ( Male&Female ) are not very trustworthy in positions of power ( look at the USA & many Middle Eastern and EVEN the UK's leaders ) People are by nature quite nasty pieces of work and this moral set of laws i think is very good but....To use fear to impose peace is plain wrong in this day and age.Why fear you ask? EVERY religion says in one way or another "Believe in no one but me ( God ) oh except the human mortal i am speaking to now ??? Believe in the human mortals word ( add xyz prophets name here ) i spoke to him but only believe i ( God ) am honest and true? hmm and if you do not you will ( because he is a loving and peaceful god ) BURN FOREVER!!! sound like the words of an ALL powerful ALL good god? If hes all powerful why does he need us to worship him? hes already ALL POWERFUL surely he doesnt have a confidence complex does he? what purpose do we have if its only to bow to the already all powerful god? Who being all powerful can make all evil go away IF he chooses. Which brings me to.......my other possibility. He does exist BUT is EITHER all powerful OR all GOOD. If he is all good then he would not want the evil killings in his name to go on BUT cannot stop it because he is NOT ALL powerful OR He is all powerful but chooses to let the evil go on because he is not all good. Does that make sense in any way to you?.

 

Also God made us in his image? so we already know what he looks like then don't we? ( IF you believe he exists and he only speaks truth and we are made in his image so...id hazard a guess to say we look like him right? )

 

 

"You've been misinformed that Islam has been terrorizing people since 1400 years ago. And who are these 270 milion people killed by Muslims?" I will find up my book on religious history and battles caused by them for the name of the author when i have time for you. As you know NO book can ever have the 100% truth because the people writing them Always have there own beliefs in mind when writing it. As for those numbers it just shows how different a story it can be from the other side ( meaning you will repute them if you look at the webbie ( Above ) they came from ) I just grabbed the first ones i found at hand. It was just a rant at

Abu really. I could of, of course just called him a neo-nazi but that wouldnt get me very far would it.

 

Thank you for offering proper questions and answers for me Layna much respect to you if only male pride didnt get in the way of most debates maybe we could all leave as one. Peace :sl:

 

PS. Abu Alfa Umar i am sorry you felt as much anger and pent up emotion as i did when you read my post as to when i read yours maybe we are not so different after all :j: peace

 

PPSS sorry please feel free to move this post to somewhere if deemed to Off topic for the thread title :no:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you for the response, I had a feeling that you are nothing like that other guy and I'm glad for the chance to understand. Please do not leave this forum on account of a few ill-exchanged words, I think that you are a wonderful contribution and I would truly enjoy hearing your thoughts and questions about Islam (both in this topic as well as others).

 

Now, I do not want to take sides, so I'll just say that a few wrong things were said on both sides, and we can set that aside to focus on the more important issues.

 

Firstly, yes, there are good non-Muslims and bad non-Muslims. Just as there are good Muslims and bad or misguided people who think they follow Islam. (I have a hard time saying "bad Muslim" because the definition of "Muslim" is always good, therefore it's a bit of an oxymoron to me).

 

"O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. [al-Ma'idah 5:51.11]"

 

This refers to those who have sold their religion and their faith in Allah so that they can gain worldly protection and allegiance from the non-believers. The next two verses read:

 

(52. And you see those in whose hearts there is a disease, they hurry to their friendship, saying: "We fear lest some misfortune of a disaster may befall us. '' Perhaps Allah may bring a victory or a decision according to His will. Then they will become regretful for what they have been keeping as a secret in themselves.)

 

53. And those who believe will say: "Are these the men who swore their strongest oaths by Allah that they were with you?'' All that they did has been in vain, and they have become the losers.

 

Yes you hit the nail on the head as i stated i am ashamed of that sloop even being from the UK but yes it was Abu's attack which angerd me IE "we WILL be the dominant culture of the WEST" ( which SEEMS to be the thought of all Muslims ) firstly why would we want to embrace a religion which is threatening to Dominate me and my people?

 

You are very right.

 

Who has no future? Look at the state of the middle east then look at the UK? hmm we have nice parks, buildings without bullet holes and bombs going off every week...who has a future mate please. If you were happy and have a future in your homelands why try force Islamic law on another country?

 

You are also right here. There are many reasons that the Middle East is in ruins while the west is not, but the primary reason is that God wills it to be so. In Islam, we believe that all credit goes first and foremost to God. If I pass an exam, it is through the mercy of Allah. If I find a nice job, it is because of God.

 

I believe that wealth and riches are a test for mankind to see their reaction. Will they claim all of the credit? Will they share this wealth with the less fortunate? Or will they be humble and giving?

 

That is the problem Islam is NOT tolerant of other religions or beliefs as it says so in your Koran ( yes i have read it through it is a English translation rather than the real Koran ) i will add verse numbers if you wish.

 

Simple translations of the Qur'an are sometimes misleading. It doesn't tell the entire story, nor does it give the meaning intended behind the verses or chapters. It is also very hard to figure out the audience intended.

 

If the Qur'an says that Islam is tolerant toward other religions, it's because it is. However, the one thing that Islam does not tolerate is injustice.

 

Could this happen in an Islamic state?

 

Yes, it could. Religion is not forced on non-believers.

 

Muslims are encouraged to be wholly occupied (Sura 2:273) with fighting for Allah's cause

 

This verse does not refer to fighting at all. Here is the full verse:

 

"(Charity is) for Fuqara' (the poor), who in Allah's cause are restricted (from travel), and cannot move about in the land (for trade or work). The one who knows them not, thinks that they are rich because of their modesty. You may know them by their mark, they do not beg of people at all. And whatever you spend in good, surely Allah knows it well."

 

Allah will give "a far richer recompense to those who fight for him" (Sura 4:96)

 

In this verse, Allah is comparing two kinds of Muslims. Those who sit at home and do nothing, or those who take action.

 

95. Not equal are those of the believers who sit (at home), except those who are disabled, and those who strive hard and fight in the cause of Allah with their wealth and their lives. Allah has preferred in grades those who strive hard and fight with their wealth and their lives above those who sit (at home). Unto each, Allah has promised good (Paradise), but Allah has preferred those who strive hard and fight, above those who sit (at home), by a huge reward.)

 

96. Degrees of (higher) grades from Him, and forgiveness and mercy. And Allah is Ever Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

 

These two verses are referring to Jihad (holy war), they were specifically intended for the Battle of Badr which was fought at the time of prophet Muhammad. It was intended to exempt disabled Muslims from being forced to take part in war.

 

Many people (not you, because you probably don't know much about the Qur'an) pick out verses referring to war and make it seem like the entire Qur'an is about war. These verses only deal with one aspect of being a Muslim.

 

Regarding infidels (unbelievers), they are the Muslim's "inveterate enemies" (Sura 4:101)

 

This verse is out of context. It refers to the fear Muslims had when they were traveling in enemy areas.

 

Full verse:

101. And when you Darabtum (travel) in the land, there is no sin on you if you shorten the Salah(prayer) if you fear that the disbelievers may put you in trial, verily, the disbelievers are ever unto you open enemies.

 

Tafsir (interpretation) given by Ibn Kathir:

 

(if you fear that the disbelievers may put you in trial (attack you)), refers to the typical type of fear prevalent when this Ayah was revealed. In the beginning of Islam, and after the Hijrah, Muslims used to experience fear during most of their travels. Rather, they restricted their movements to large or short military expeditions. During that era, most areas were areas of combatant enemies of Islam and its people. But when the prevalent circumstances cease, or a new situation is prevalent, decrees of this nature may not be understood)

 

This verse is not about war in any way. It is about the shortening of prayers during travel.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Muslims are to "arrest them, besiege them and lie in ambush everywhere" (Sura 9:5) for them.

 

This verse is also out of context.

 

It refers to the time of prophet Muhammad, when the Muslims were fighting openly against the pagans of Arabia.

 

3. And a declaration from Allah and His Messenger to mankind on the greatest day of Hajj that Allah is free from obligations to the Mushrikin and so is His Messenger. So if you repent, it is better for you, but if you turn away, then know that you cannot escape Allah. And give tidings of a painful torment for those who disbelieve.

 

4. Except those of the Mushrikin with whom you have a treaty, and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor have supported anyone against you. So fulfill their treaty for them until the end of their term. Surely, Allah loves those who have fear of Him.

 

5. So when the Sacred Months have passed, then fight the Mushrikin wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform the Salah, and give the Zakah, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

 

6. And if anyone of the Mushrikin seeks your protection then grant him protection so that he may hear the Word of Allah (the Qur'an) and then escort him to where he can be secure, that is because they are men who know not.

 

These 4 verses speak of the war between Muslims and the pagans. In verse 4, it refers to certain pagans who made treaties with Muslims for a specific period of time. After that time, they became enemies of one another once again. If the pagans did not uphold their end of the treaty, then the treaty was void. For as long as the treaty was in place, the Muslims would aid these pagans and vice versa.

 

Why does the verse you quoted say capture, besiege and lie in wait for them? It means don't wait for them to make the first move during a battle. It is referring to military strategies, it does not mean attack random non-Muslims and capture them for no apparant reason.

 

They are to "seize them and put them to death wherever you find them, kill them wherever you find them, seek out the enemies of Islam relentlessly" (Sura 4:90).

 

This verse is speaking of the hypocrites, not of non-Muslims. The hypocrites were people who pretended to be Muslims but only sought to destroy the community by creating problems.

 

"Fight them until Islam reigns supreme" (Sura 2:193)

 

Also out of context.

 

190. And fight in the way of Allah those who fight you, but transgress not the limits. Truly, Allah likes not the transgressors.

 

191. And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing. And fight not with them at Al-Masjid Al-Haram (the sanctuary at Makkah), unless they (first) fight you there. But if they attack you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.

 

192. But if they cease, then Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

 

193. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah) and the religion (all and every kind of worship) is for Allah (Alone). But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimin (the polytheists and wrongdoers).

 

The verses obviously state that fight those who fight you, and stop fighting if they stop.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
"Cut off their heads, and cut off the tips of their fingers" (Sura 8:12)

 

This verse refers to the battle of Uhud and it was intended for the enemies of Islam.

 

"seek out the enemies of Islam relentlessly" What ACTUALLY go looking for fights is being moderate & peaceful?

 

Wouldn't it be injustice to simply leave alone those who create problems for Muslims? Those who openly kill men, women, and children? Do they deserve to be left alone?

 

Islam is a religion of moderation and peace. It does not mean that Islam is a religion that turns a blind eye to the wrong doings of others.

 

But remember these books were written in very early years, CAN they be relevant now)

 

Yes, I believe they can and they are.

 

Other than the extremists who said the moderates were betraying there people and lands but as your all Moderate Muslims you know what i mean right? ) Do you feel it was wrong to help stop Russia attacking you ? would like to know the answer to this smile.gif

 

I'm not a moderate Muslim. I'm a Muslim. A Muslim should always be moderate. Let me explain how.

 

If someone spends all of their time worshipping Allah and does not leave any time over for his family, relatives, friends, then such a person is not moderate. If someone spends all of their time with their families, friends, and relatives, then such a person is not moderate.

 

If someone gives charity a lot but does not feed his own family, that person is not moderate. If someone feeds his family and does not give to charity, then such a person is not moderate.

 

If someone fights in Jihad a lot but does not worship Allah in any other aspect, that person is not moderate.

 

If hes all powerful why does he need us to worship him?

 

That is really for God to know and for us to perhaps find out. But simply because God punishes those who reject Him does not mean that He is unwilling to accept repentence.

 

Which brings me to.......my other possibility. He does exist BUT is EITHER all powerful OR all GOOD.

 

It really depends on what all-good means. If all-good means treating people who love Him and people who hate Him equally, people who are just and people who are injust equally, then I disagree.

 

Also God made us in his image? so we already know what he looks like then don't we? ( IF you believe he exists and he only speaks truth and we are made in his image so...id hazard a guess to say we look like him right? )

 

That's a Christian belief. We don't believe that we look like God. We don't know what God looks like. We couldn't ever guess.

 

I hope I have answered most of your questions and please don't be offended at anything that I've said. I understand that anything can be made to look ugly if one tries to, and there are many people who try to make Islam into something that it is not. But the Qur'an does not support allegations that Muslims should terrorize and kill wherever they go. Islam does not allow non-Muslims to walk all over Muslims. But neither does it allow the vice versa.

 

Salam.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello Layna / All

 

Thank you for your response, it helps a lot to have someone explain things a little deeper for me :j:. For the first time i feel i maybe am getting some real insight into your religion.( We both need people like you on the board for the peace talks we are having, could make a big difference ) Ive been thinking a lot about this today at work ( hope my boss don't read this hehe ) and the more i think the more questions i feel i have :sl: . Reading the whole paragraph helps ( thank you for that ) its just (sigh) i don't know...maybe i have never let my self open up to any religion as iv'e said before ( In a different thread ) i would love to have this 'Faith' and beliefs in a God and an afterlife, maybe more for the sake of my Son than me. Like any parent you only want the best for your child / children but i have always been quite in touch with Nature in terms of watching the sun come up at dawn or sitting in the middle of a forest just listening to the birds and the wind and wow to me that is spiritual. I feel good at that time then i come back to the towns/citys and it just drops away with the noise and people. Anyway sorry off topic again hehe.

 

Yes im happy to forget the few ( wrongly ) chosen words Abu and i had ( although the raciest comment was totally uncalled for ) but i accept not all Muslims feel like this ( as i hope not all white people do ) and carry on with with our useful dialog .

 

Firstly on the issue of Islam in itself, Why is the emphasis on Fearing God rather than Loving God? ( not a Criticism just i don't understand why such emphasis is put on fearing him?) thank you in advance of any insight on this :no:

 

You feel its Gods choice to put the Middle East in such hostility? why? The Middle East is the 'Holy Land' and has the most followers Of Islam, so why punish them for it? Please dont say its not our place to ask why because its his choice. To me that feels like a thing religious people say when they cant answer a question ( sorry no offence intended ). Its just not logical. In different context "How do you know you wont be punished anyway as like you said its his choice to punish you now ( Punished for following him? ) how can you be sure he is not going to punish you as you are being punished now for being a believer? i cant grasp the idea? maybe im missing something.

 

Maybe it comes down to faith? but what is faith? ( To me its believing some thing you CANNOT prove but HOPE to be true? ) is that a fair definition to you? Faith ( To me )is a little small to be laying your whole life time on. What if, just... what if your wrong? Ive thought about it before What if im wrong? well i hope i live by good moral standards i try not to hurt anyone and i have never believed in any other god either so im hoping IF there is some thing up there he will have some pity on me as for my reason ....All religions ask me to believe the word of a MORTAL Is he not asking me to have as much faith in the Mortal telling the truth as he is in him? Of course if it had happened to day say a man/women came forward saying God had spoken ( Literally spoken ) to them would YOU believe him? What difference is it in WHEN it happened? ( was it the Bible Or the Koran that said one more prophet would come after Jesus Christ? ) If the bible COULD that then have been one of the parts that was corrupted my man?

 

Also on this topic. Please dont quote me on this but i have seen ( and heard from a Muslim leader at a Masjid in Bradford UK (1)) that the Prophet Mohamed (PBUH) ((i hope that was right sorry if not )) ACTUALLY married a 6 year old girl and slept with her at 9 years old!!!! IM sorry i dont care who you are that ( IF true ) Is beyond sick and deserves no respect at all.

 

(1) I will post the link to the video of this imam ( is it Imam or should i say a speaker at the Masjid ) he was ACTUALLY saying it is ok top sleep with kids as 'Our Prophet done it so it is condoned for us to do so" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??????????

 

I accept this is HIS opinion not alls but this is what he was preaching in the UK :sl: NOT ACCEPTABLE at all anywhere said by ANYONE. Now that said it may not be true but where did the idea come from? If it was the non believers lies about Islam ( which i would have thought more possible ) then WHY is this preacher saying it to his listeners? if i had of been there i would have shouted out my anger to him but no one did? Please im not saying its all Muslims view on the matter but one Masjids inaction against the comments is bad enough to me. ( i wont talk of this issue again other than to read your answer as it makes me boil with anger )

 

" Religion is not forced on non-believers" how many other religions are there living side by side (Peacefully)with Muslims in the middle east? The two types of Muslims ( Sunni & Shia ) cannot even live together imagine a "Follower of the book" living there let alone an atheist. would i be left alone in in an Islamic state? Again depends on the type of Muslim running things i suppose? As does not Islam leave a lot to your interpretation of the Koran?

 

"I'm not a moderate Muslim. I'm a Muslim. A Muslim should always be moderate." That im quite happy to believe but....

 

Then where did all the terrorists get such a wrong idea of Islam? where did this 'Extreme' form of Islam come from? I have never heard of a 'Extremist Christian' have you? Does Islam leave its self open to Extremist interpretation? if not why are the extremist's MOSTLY ( not always ) Islamic?

 

i understand when i ask this it is your view, not all Muslims but 'Do you feel it was wrong to help stop Russia attacking you ?' sorry to ask again but i would like you personal view on this (as a Muslim )

 

 

thank you again for taking the time to read/answer my questions as i understand there not all to your liking but much respect to you for giving me the time to learn from you. :D

 

Maybe one day ( MAYBE ) i will understand and it ( Religion ) will be able to take a place in my life also. Maybe :D

i look forward to hearing form you/ you all again :D

 

Thanks again Rep

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As always, Rep, your words are very thought-provoking and deeply touching. I wish that I could reply to each of your insightful comments at the moment, but I'm a bit short on time. But it will be the first thing I tackle tomorrow morning.

 

I would also like to create a new topic then, since I'm not sure how much longer the moderators will let us get away with being off-topic. :sl:

 

I appreciate the compliments and I will try to keep this discussion as sincere and open-minded as can possibly be between us so that both of us might benefit from one another.

 

Salam.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have created the new topic here: (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showtopic=41982&st=0&gopid=445317entry445317"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showtopic...mp;#entry445317[/url]

 

Salam.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi all :sl:

 

Thank you all for being so understanding about this and sorry i went off topic but once we started this dialog i just just carried away.

 

Respect all

 

Rep

 

ps Sorry Moderators i know you have hard jobs keeping the forum running smoothly and i didnt help matters going so off topic. I will keep it in mind in the future :j: i just have so many questions :sl:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Muslims must learn to respect the states in which they live or they will be deported by a court of law. Remember, the west invented law itself, you must respect us.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest amani
Muslims must learn to respect the states in which they live or they will be deported by a court of law. Remember, the west invented law itself, you must respect us.

 

and you must learn to diffrentiate between race and religion. what about a white american revert to Islam? where will they be deported?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


×