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Elidicious

Atheism : Why ?

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Why? Just because something happens by chance does not mean it is not real. If I'm walking along and accidentally drop my keys at the precise moment that I am walking over a drain and they fall down said drain then this is just chance. It does not mean, however, that it does not happen. Similarly the creation of the Universe by chance does not suggest that it is not real.
Yeah in the "dropping keys" case you're right. But...if you read my post carefully i meant that this world is too perferct to be created by chance.

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PropellerAds

:j:

totally agree. :sl:

I always think...that...this world and life is built in a perfect way..i mean...there are some rules you need to follow in order to live the life. and these rules aren't created by chance.

May i ask what those rules may be to live the life? What do you think?

 

 

And if God was not created but was simply there then it is just as feasible to say that the Universe was not created by choice but is simply there by chance.

Elidicious,

 

And if God was created then? I would like to know the second part too...

 

:sl:

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Yeah in the "dropping keys" case you're right. But...if you read my post carefully i meant that this world is too perferct to be created by chance.

This world has room for improvement ~ it is far from perfect.

 

And if God was created then? I would like to know the second part too...

The idea was that it's just reasonable to believe that god was always as it is reasonable to believe the universe was always there. There is no reason.

Edited by Duffman_

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Elidicious,

 

As Duffman pointed out this world is far from perfect. I think what you mean is that the world and everything in it is so complex that it cannot have come about through chance.

 

First off I should make one thing clear. By chance I do not mean that things just happened to fall together at a given point and miraculously work. By chance I simply mean it was not preordained by a Creator (God). Most complex phenomena, in my opinion, can be reasonably attributed to the process of natural selection, a process that has occurred over several billion years.

 

To address your point, Elidicious, you say that this world is too perfect to be created by chance. Thus, the probability of everything working together in the way that it does is too low for it to simply have just worked out that way, so to speak. The problem with this (for me, at least) is that it immediately makes the existence of an entity that has the capacity to create such a complex world exponentially less probable.

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May i ask what those rules may be to live the life?
what do you mean? you yourself live your life under rules...now you ask me what those rules are.

your question is a bit strange.

 

Both Duffman and Brucemaster are not getting my point.

Perfect doesn't mean things should go the way we want them to, but things go the way they should.

Look at Human Being. It's too smart to be created by chance. Look where we are now...how do you think all this was created by chance? Life is difficult to live...because God made it so. and still...there are a lot of questions without answers. But human being is smart and complex and everything..and finds the way out of everything.

you know....we don't fly...only birds can fly. i think that's how it should be...and it would be a fairy tale if we flied. so...that's what i call perfect. JUST LIKE IT SHOULD BE.

or...i need to work hard to do well in exam....and that's how it should be. and that's perfect. this is also a rule of life. WORK HARD TO WIN. so? isn't it fair and perfect?

everything is so real. i can't become invinsible. that's perfect.

 

ok. let's suppose we were created by chance. so...some of you think about the natural process.

i don't get it. what does it mean? plus...the natural process can't happen itsself. there need to be someone to make it happen. Plus...let's talk about matter....how was it created? someone should've created it. you say :the natural process created it: and who created the natural process? ok..you say Who created God? why do we need to give answer to this question when there are other ones we should give an answer to. that's the last question we gotta make...because it's difficult to give an answer. let's not go too far.

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what do you mean? you yourself live your life under rules...now you ask me what those rules are.

your question is a bit strange.

 

lolll, Elida thats exactly what am asking you, what are those rules? What rules do i live under? blah :sl:

 

:sl:

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Both Duffman and Brucemaster are not getting my point.

That shouldn't be a suprise as you haven't given an underlying basis for your arguements. You keep saying more and more things that require more and more explanations to make sense ~ observe below

 

Perfect doesn't mean things should go the way we want them to, but things go the way they should.
Then what is perfection? And how do you tell "that is how something should be"?

 

It's too smart to be created by chance.
No logical reasoning given for this statement.

 

Life is difficult to live...because God made it so
No logical reasoning given for this statement.

 

i think that's how it should be...and it would be a fairy tale if we flied.

Why on earth would it be a fairy tale if we flied? Your holy book says that angels fly doesn't it? That's like holy humans with wings. You don't call that a fairy tale do you?

 

that's what i call perfect. JUST LIKE IT SHOULD BE.
You just made your arguement subjective. The only way you judge how something "should be" is based on your own personal views and preference. There's no universal system of how things should be at work here in your arguement.

 

ok. let's suppose we were created by chance. so...some of you think about the natural process.

i don't get it. what does it mean? plus...the natural process can't happen itsself.

You say you don't get the natural process then you say it can't happen itself....you're saying something you don't understand can't happen?

 

plus...the natural process can't happen itsself. there need to be someone to make it happen.
No logical reasoning given for this statement.

 

Plus...let's talk about matter....how was it created? someone should've created it.
No logical reasoning given for this statement.

 

ok..you say Who created God? why do we need to give answer to this question when there are other ones we should give an answer to. that's the last question we gotta make...because it's difficult to give an answer. let's not go too far.
I find this intellectually disgusting. The inability to explain the source of god or to prove god exists makes all other arguements based on gods existence meaningless. Choosing not to answer this question of god yet using god as the answer to many other questions is pretty much embracing ignorance and calling it knowledge.

 

I am very offended by this and am no longer interested in discussing this matters with you. So far all your explanations require more explanations to make sense and now you just want to stop trying to explain at some point. It makes me feel like the time I spent trying to find out your reasoning was a waste of time. If you are satisfied with what you claim to know then that's good for you.

 

Have a good day lady.

Edited by Duffman_

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Then what is perfection? And how do you tell "that is how something should be"?
I don't tell it. Logic tells it, brain tells it. why do we study logic at school? because it shows how things should be and doesn't allow personal views.

 

Why on earth would it be a fairy tale if we flied? Your holy book says that angels fly doesn't it? That's like holy humans with wings. You don't call that a fairy tale do you?
Yes. angels fly...but WE'RE NOT ANGELS!!! and WE DON'T HAVE WINGS...so we're not like them...and that's why we can't fly. and this quoted sentence of your was a very childish one.

 

The only way you judge how something "should be" is based on your own personal views and preference. There's no universal system of how things should be at work here in your arguement.
If i say the human being can't fly....why does it have to be a personal veiw?. LOL.............THAT'S A FACT!!! HUMAN BEING CAN'T FLY!!!! you said :"why would it be a fairy tale if we flied? i think we could fly..." now..if you wished we flied...then thIS IS A PERSONAL PREFERENCE and a PERSONAL VIEW. because according to your view we could fly. who cares what we cuould do. everyone cares about what we're doing...so stop it.

 

 

It's too smart to be created by chance.

No logical reasoning given for this statement.

I gave a reason in my previous posts. You didn't want to accept it and i'm not gonna explain it for the second time. so i don't really care.

 

Plus...let's talk about matter....how was it created? someone should've created it.

No logical reasoning given for this statement.

YOU'RE A MATTER YOURSELF! haven't you asked yourself how you were created? what's there for so logical that you want? you came from other created matters...and these other created matters came from other ones..and so on. then ..how did the very FIRST matter got created? itself? then who made this "itself" happen? Yesterday i was watching a documentary on Explorer channel and...in the end of the program the speaker ended up saying :"science was unable to give answer to all the questions so we all think there must be something beyond this." so what's this beyond thing?

 

since there was a natural process going on....why are we all the same? why have we all got 2 legs? 2 arms? the same body structure? why haven't you got 83945987 eyes? Why my nature has to be the same with your nature?

so this means there's a brain beyond all this...and it couldn't happen by chance. Everything is CALCULATED. because if something happens by chance...there are no explanations and no questions...and we end up saying : "oh well..i don't know why i've got 3 arms...it just happened by chance...just like he got 4 eyes because he happened to be in the first place, at that time...so there was another natural process going on..." and stuff like that.

 

The inability to explain the source of god
And you think you've got the ability to explain the source of ours?

 

When i asked "if not God then who created us?" some of you said..."well....I THINK....a natural process..." bla bla bla

ok. that's what you think. but STILL REMAINS A PERSONAL VIEW!(since you were really worried about this one). you are unable to give answers yourself so don't claim that we should have every single answer. we're just like you.

 

If you are satisfied with what you claim to know
Who said that i'm satisfied? your brain did? yes your brain. :sl:

 

You know? i guess you haven't slept well last night...and your brain is disorinated so that's why you can't understand a lot of things. go and take a nap and you'll be ok

Relax.

 

oh by the way...(more than you can imagine)i'm having a good day. :sl:

you aren't.

Edited by Elidicious

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Elid, I think you might have some misconceptions about both how evolution, and natural selection works. (And im sure Duffman didnt hlp by posting in a mean way :sl:)

 

First of all evolution is usally applied to biology in coversation such as these, but it isnt limited to simply biology. It can be applied to geology, cosomlogy etc.

 

Natural selection is how evolution happens (even the staunchest theologian will agree evolution happens area of disagree is why and how). Natural selection works thru the simple process of elimination. A fun activity to get you a basic idea of how this works is by getting a big group of friends. One being 'predetors' another being 'runners'. The idea is for the predetors to catch X number of runners per hr else they have to sit out. Runners have to get resources per hr as well else they sit out. Any runner caught have to sit out. Eventually youll see only the best of both groups remain. Weather it is speedies, most cunning or simply most lucky.

 

Natural selection kinda works this way except you also have mutation as well as reproduction. And if one species does this then all have to else they get eliminated.

 

You may ask how this can apply to innanimate objects. Well, think of a bunch of comets flying around between Mars and Jupiter. The ones that fly out too far will get sucked into Mars or Jupiter or just go flying into space. The ones travelling too fast will shatter when they collide with others same goes with the ones sitting still. Ones that are too small will get smashed into bigger ones. And ones that are too big will be too attractive and get collitions from smaller ones.

 

Its essentially action = reaction which inturn = another reaction etc.

 

The reason why its silly to say we (or any other species) has reached perfection si simply because not only do we evolve but so does our environment. So what was a benefit today is a disadvantage tomorrow. (ie. being furry all over was great when we wore less clothes and in cooler climates, now its seen as unattractive and will get you less mating opporunities).

 

If you still believe that creatures do not evolve then I ask you why we have super 'bugs'. Meaning disease resistant to anything we thro at it? Or vermin that are now resistant to any and all pestiside? Personally I think this is conclusive proof for natural selection.

 

Actually, you made a very good pt. when you asked how matter was created (thou from your latest post I see this wasnt your intention :sl: ) Energy cannot be destroyed and matter cannot be created. Therefore all that exists existed before in a previous form which problematic when you consider the idea of the big bang as it would essentially start with a point of infinity mass, heat and enery all within an unimaginally tiny spec. Which raises alot of questions as infinite pts such as these do the complete opposite to expansion (see black holes).

 

A good book to answer these questions as well as a universe w/o a God can be found in Stephen Hawkings, "A Brief History of Time". Granted you did see a documentary, sadly most documentary are meant to entertain first, inform later so better to do your own research than rely on television.

 

Hope this hlps :j: (you are not allowed to post links yet)"http://######en.wikipedia######/wiki/Brief_history_of_time"]######en.wikipedia######/wiki/Brief_history_of_time[/url]

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You missed the significance of 'should' vs 'could'. At what point did I say humans could fly? Saying we can't fly and that we shouldn't be able to fly are two very different things. You initially said we shouldn't be able to fly.

 

"science was unable to give answer to all the questions so we all think there must be something beyond this." so what's this beyond thing?
All I'm gonna say is google the word "god of the gaps". Hopefully you understand the absurdity of your paragraph there after reading up on this.

 

I don't claim to have the answers elly, I admit that I don't know when I don't know. If your asking about matter then I think everything was simply always here. I don't know that however~

 

Who said that i'm satisfied? your brain did? yes your brain.

"If" is a word. Please don't pick and choose the words you want to read and respond to them because it just doesn't make sense.

 

and yea, I did have a bad day ~ sorry if I seemed rude there. I got screwed over on an exam :sl:

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I am very offended by this and am no longer interested in discussing this matters with you...It makes me feel like the time I spent trying to find out your reasoning was a waste of time.
Oh...i see you're still here....

 

You missed the significance of 'should' vs 'could'. At what point did I say humans could fly? Saying we can't fly and that we shouldn't be able to fly are two very different things. You initially said we shouldn't be able to fly.
i totally know the exact meaning and the exact DIFFERENCE between those 2. and i said "and it would be a fairy tale if we flied" which means "....if we could fly..." you gotta notice the little difference.

 

If your asking about matter then I think everything was simply always here. I don't know that however~
you see? no one is aksing you to know everything....just like we don't know everything. Plus, i think it's foolish to think that everything was simply here. Everything has a beginning(even the very previous form of matter) lol...just think....
"If" is a word.
i know but the fact that you say it means...you think it. so..you really think that i'm satisfied. "if" means....there's a possibility...which also means...that you are convinced about what you said.

 

I got screwed over on an exam
You do when you are mean and rude. :sl: God saw you...:sl: (one more reason to believe in Him) Edited by Elidicious

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Energy cannot be destroyed and matter cannot be created. Therefore all that exists existed before in a previous
you're right. but the previous form used to be a very previous one and so on....and what's the first previous thing/form? in order for something to become a previous, there need to be a pre-previous thing...and so on....so i'm talking about the very first "pre-previous" form..and by who/what was "created" (cuz as said the matter can't be created)(by the way..which word can i use here?)(maybe "become)

 

but...

if we have 3 little stones 1 2 3...

if "1" goes with "2" we well have the "1-2" form then this will go with "3" and we will have the "1-2-3" form of matter. now...the form "1-2" is a previous one of this > "1-2-3" form. right?

what about the number 1(which may have been "created" by the mixing of 1' & 1'')..who "created" the 1''?

lol..:sl: ..just a bunch of words...anyway....don't want to go into details. just wana know ........the very first thing in the universe..................who came from.

 

Its essentially action = reaction which inturn = another reaction etc.
i totally get your point.

 

can you please post the link in another way? it doesn't work for me.

Edited by Elidicious

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you're right. but the previous form used to be a very previous one and so on....and what's the first previous thing/form? in order for something to become a previous, there need to be a pre-previous thing...and so on....so i'm talking about the very first "pre-previous" form..and by who/what was "created" (cuz as said the matter can't be created)(by the way..which word can i use here?)(maybe "become)

 

Something evidently exists now and something did not come from nothing, being must then be without a start, something eternal must be admitted by theist atheist and agnostic

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being must then be without a start,
i don't get it.

 

something eternal must be admitted
and why don't you admit that this eternal something may be God? you guys are contradictory. You don't believe in God because you don't want to...then you admit there's something eternal. Edited by Elidicious

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i don't get it.

 

and why don't you admit that this eternal something may be God?

 

 

Its because to say that it is because of God (Allah variation) would imply conscienceness and purpose. The 'eternal' could simply a continous self-creation/self-destruction devoid of thought.

 

Hawkings talks about this in his book. Type Brief History of Time in wikipedia for a *very brief* synoposis (just go buy it :sl:)

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You do when you are mean and rude. :sl: God saw you...:j: (one more reason to believe in Him)

We have very different ideas of the word reason ~ lets leave it at that :sl:

 

you're right. but the previous form used to be a very previous one and so on....and what's the first previous thing/form? in order for something to become a previous, there need to be a pre-previous thing...and so on....so i'm talking about the very first "pre-previous" form..and by who/what was "created" (cuz as said the matter can't be created)(by the way..which word can i use here?)(maybe "become)

 

Are you going into the whole causal relationship thing where there is something before that caused what is now etc?

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If God is the one who created the Universe who or what created God?
your simple question has been dealt many many times....and we were talking about it before. for more information you gotta ask the ones who have more knowledge than me.

 

Are you going into the whole causal relationship thing where there is something before that caused what is now etc?
YES. since you all say that things were simply there...and i don't think this makes sense. Edited by Elidicious

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Atheism makes me feel special, I dunno. Like there's some kinda creator out there who made me for no reason whatsoever. It's really comforting, I feel fuzzy inside. No going crazy over answers because there are none; no going through the despair of being called upon for worth. Live life: enjoy life & eachother. The air I breathe is free. =)

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YES. since you all say that things were simply there...and i don't think this makes sense.

There's alot of problems with this arguement (I've explored it myself before).

 

we start with

#1 - Everything is caused by something else

 

then we say

#2 - There exists a first cause

 

#2 already contradicts #1. If we accept #2 then it means #1 is not true.

 

there's not much progress with this arguement.

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Atheism makes me feel special, I dunno. Like there's some kinda creator out there who made me for no reason whatsoever. It's really comforting, I feel fuzzy inside. No going crazy over answers because there are none; no going through the despair of being called upon for worth. Live life: enjoy life & eachother. The air I breathe is free. =)
:sl: good for you.

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the question where god come from or where the universe originate from Is not related to causality , it’s answer lies in a necessarily truth which is something eternal exist , now what is this eternal which exists this is a different question .

 

concerning the causality argument there are many variation of it one that the universe is a set governed by some rules like everything is caused by something else and this set is included in another set where those rules do not apply but other rules does and one of them is necessarily existence hence first cause .

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Hi,

 

1- Why don't you believe in God?(this is optional since there's another thread "if there was God" where you have listed some reasons. Maybe you could give a shorter answer here)

hehe because i simply don't want to believe in him.

 

2- Who/What was the first influencial thing that made you not believe in God?

I haven't had anything influencial yet. It's just me who thinks so.

 

3- If God doesn't exist/or didn't create us--who do you think created us?

Something else but not him. I don't know what's this 'something else'. i try to think it in different ways but i can't come to a conclusion. I'm not really clear about it.

 

4- You think God is a result of... what?

Of people who need to believe in him.

 

5- Aren't you afraid of the idea of not believing in God?

Not at all. i'm not afraid of him because to me he doesn't exist

 

6- If you believed in God, do you think your life would be better now?

I don't know. Maybe yes, maybe no.

 

7- What do you think of people who believe in God?

They've got a wrong idea in their heads.

 

8- Is there any chance for you to believe in God in the future?

No. not at all. if i haven't believed until now why do i have to start believing right now and then on?

 

Thank You
you're welcome

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hehe because i simply don't want to believe in him.
Immature reason. this is not an answer.

 

Of people who need to believe in him.
and tell me ...why do you think people need to believe in him?

 

They've got a wrong idea in their heads.
hehe...still an immature answer. who are you to judge us if we're wrong or not? what if you're the one who's wrong here?

you're out of line.

 

No. not at all. if i haven't believed until now why do i have to start believing right now and then on?
What's there for so strange? tomorrow something may happen which might make you change your mind. SO WHAT? have you ever changed your mind in your life?

 

...whatever.... :sl:

Edited by Elidicious

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gee ghaad elly, no need to get all hostile on the guy. (An entire post in bold signifies some sort of yelling)

 

who are you to judge us if we're wrong or not?
Now here's one I found interesting. My response to this would be that I am all that matters. Ofcourse I'm going to pass judgement on everything and anything ~ it's part of having a personality. Not all of my judgements would have a rational justification but that is irrelevant, I'm the judge after all.

 

what if you're the one who's wrong here?

that's the "well duh" part elly. Everyone has a view on everything and the smart ones are always aware that they could be wrong.

 

you're out of line.
as the judge, I think I will decide when I'm out of line.

 

concerning the causality argument there are many variation of it one that the universe is a set governed by some rules like everything is caused by something else and this set is included in another set where those rules do not apply but other rules does and one of them is necessarily existence hence first cause .
This sounds like a theory with no logical justification answering the question "how do we know this?". It can't be proven wrong. That theory is meaningless.

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