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anthony19832005

Can A Good Muslims Also Be Secularist?

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Salaams

 

It must be noted that secularism and atheism are not the same thing. Many religious people are also secularists.

 

Secularism is not about getting rid of religion. It is about all people being treated equally and no discrimination either positive or negative purely on religious grounds.

 

The established churches (of all religions) have a vested interest in opposing secularism as it threatens their political power, not their faith.

Source: (comments from) (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yettimesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article1443878.ece"]TimesOnline-Article[/url]

 

Do you agree with that statement? Can a good muslim also be a secularist? ( Like Saddam was [minus the bad things] )

 

Salaams

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PropellerAds

there is something that i failed to understand.

 

Secularism is not about getting rid of religion. It is about all people being treated equally and no discrimination either positive or negative purely on religious grounds.

 

"equally" for whom or for what?

 

there must be a set of rules. who will put them? how will you achieve purifying that man from all these humanly tendencies, from his genetic inclinations, from his values? any human being can utterly be objective?

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Secularism is about getting rid of religion. Allah has given us Islam which is perfect. We don't need new laws telling us what is lawful and what isn't lawful, what is acceptable and what isn't acceptable.

 

"It is about all people being treated equally and no discrimination either positive or negative purely on religious grounds."

 

Where does Islam come into this? Doesn't Islam teach us to be fair?

 

Secularism has destroyed so many "Muslim" countries already.

 

 

 

Mehmet

Edited by Righteous

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Peace

 

Where does Islam come into this? Doesn't Islam teach us to be fair?

 

Well to be fair, the Islamic state Does treat muslims and non-muslims differently. Secularism, on the other hand, treats all humans the same, and everybody is judged according to his/her own actions, regardless of religion. There are some parts to secularism which I like, and some parts which I do not. I just want to hear people's opinions on this.

 

Salaams

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I think secularism is a dangerous thing bro. Because.. as Muslims we don't follow mans laws over the law of Allah. And that is what secularism does. Is a believer and a non believer the same in the sight of Allah? Hope you understand what I am trying to say.

 

 

Mehmet

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i agree entirely. A secular state is one that is open to people of all faiths, and should not restrict services or entry to anyone just because of their religious beleif.

 

There is no requirement built into secularism that one must give up ones faith, indeed that is the sacred element of all people/creatures, what it does is restrict the religious hierarchies that are built upon that faith. Many people have noted througout history that it is rarely the normal people of faith who start religious wars and inquisitions, it is the people of power who do so in the name of religion.

 

 

it is like the argument for free speech that allows racists and nazis a voice - if you *truly* beleive in the rightness of non-racism and non-nazism, if you beleive that your position is the logically and morally right one, then you need no legal defence to prevent your opponents from speaking - after all, under free speech you will win out. The same is true for religion - if you *really* beleive in it, really belive it is the best system, the best truth, then you need no political system to defend it, it can stand upon its own and convince through its own correctness. Let then the State become secular, and Allahu Akbar.

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I am religious and also secular. many people do it here its not impossible.

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Secularism is about getting rid of religion. Allah has given us Islam which is perfect. We don't need new laws telling us what is lawful and what isn't lawful, what is acceptable and what isn't acceptable.

 

"It is about all people being treated equally and no discrimination either positive or negative purely on religious grounds."

 

Where does Islam come into this? Doesn't Islam teach us to be fair?

 

Secularism has destroyed so many "Muslim" countries already.

Mehmet

 

 

 

What societies has secularism ruined? And are they in worse straights than the Islamic countries that are falling apart? Sudan and Somalia are Islamic, so was Afghanistan, and those country went downhill pretty quick.

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[at] eyal - You're a Jew.

 

 

[at] Saltwater Nomad - Secularism ruins our religion. However, your right, so called "Muslim" countries do just as bad of a job. However it's secular laws which allow Alcohol to be sold etc. Muslim countries should be living by Muslim laws - they don't, and that's why these Muslim countries are falling apart. But no, I don't think secularism helps at all it makes things worse. If all Muslim countries followed the laws of Allah there would be far less problems in the world! (In my opinion)

 

 

Mehmet

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If all Muslim countries followed the laws of Allah there would be far less problems in the world! (In my opinion)

Mehmet

 

I agree, but who interprets the 'laws of Allah' in the absence of a messenger? The people, or a small group of religious scholars? I reject the latter, as there is supposed to be no hierarchy in Islam. Religious control in the hands of a small group of religious scholars or 'experts' (who have their own agendas and interests) has been, in my opinion, extremely detrimental to Islamic countries. Almost as much as the secular dictatorships.

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I actually think it's simple bro. We have the Quran and we have the Sunnah which is clear in what is ok and what is not. We are actually lucky, it has been made so simple for us (Unlike other religions) Alhamdulillah! :sl:

 

 

Mehmet

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Secularism isn't here to 'end' religion. It is a common set of laws where you are free to hold any belief you want. We may not agree with your beliefs but it is important that you have this right. I believe every country should be secular.

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Peace

Well to be fair, the Islamic state Does treat muslims and non-muslims differently. Secularism, on the other hand, treats all humans the same, and everybody is judged according to his/her own actions, regardless of religion. There are some parts to secularism which I like, and some parts which I do not. I just want to hear people's opinions on this.

 

Salaams

 

It may be true that Islamic states treat muslims and non-muslims differently. However, there is always justice in Islam. Equality is something different from justice. By the way, who will draw the lines of this equality? A human being..... they are all fallible.

 

If you accept that Allah is the unique creator, then the Islamic Path is the unique way to follow... only following the signs in this Path, one can reach peace.

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Secularism isn't here to 'end' religion. It is a common set of laws where you are free to hold any belief you want. We may not agree with your beliefs but it is important that you have this right. I believe every country should be secular.

 

Fair enough, that is your opinion. But as a Muslim I am against secularism, and I am sure the majority of the Muslims hold the same opinion (Or.. I hope so anyway, otherwise we have a big problem)

 

 

Mehmet

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If all Muslim countries followed the laws of Allah there would be far less problems in the world! (In my opinion)

Mehmet

 

Salaam

 

If all Muslim countries followed the laws of Allah there would be far less problems in the world! (Fact!)

 

:sl: :sl:

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[at] eyal - You're a Jew.

we have many of the same strict costums. actually i wouldnt be suprised if ours were worse lol. you should see the jews who follow it to the letter....

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It may be true that Islamic states treat muslims and non-muslims differently. However, there is always justice in Islam. Equality is something different from justice. By the way, who will draw the lines of this equality? A human being..... they are all fallible.

 

There is justice in an Islamic state for Muslims. Not for non=Muslims. Equality and justice may be two different things, but it is practically impossible to have one without the other. Justice is nigh impossible when you have one religion that is able to tell all the other religions what they can and cannot do.

 

I do not understand why there are Muslims that fear being on an even playing field with other religions. If there is so much faith in Muslims then why do they seem to be most insecure when it comes to criticism of their religion? Why the fear and outright hatred of secularism that some Muslims display?

 

Secularism means that no religion is dominant over another, yet some Muslims seem to believe that Muslims should be dominant over non-Muslims when it comes to government. Then they wonder why so many people in the world are skeptical of them. Being able to freely practice your religion should be enough. You shouldn't feel the need to impose your religious rule over others.

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[at] eyal - That's how it should be :sl:

 

[at] Livius - That's not how it is Islam is about treating people justly whether Muslim or Christian or Jewish. Islam isn't about opressing people.

 

 

Mehmet

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Peace

 

well , in modern times, where we live in countries which are rich in cultural and religious diversity, People should be able to treat eachother as equals, regardless of religion etc. I think Muslims should help one another and give advice to one another, but as bro Righteous said, we have the Qur'an and the Sunnah, and I believe that each muslim should live according to his/her own interpretation of the texts. basically everyone should respect one another, and rule according to a democratic consensus....otherwise I think that any attempts to create a truly peaceful global world will fail.

 

Secularism is the solution for us muslims living in the west. The west is basically a soup of different cultures and religions, and people cant just run around and impose their way of life and laws on others, there has to be consensus(democracy) in which all groups participate.

 

Islamic Law (under currect interpretations) is fine in countries with 99% muslim populations, but it's impractical at best in countries with sizeable non-muslim populations.

 

 

 

Salaams

Edited by anthony19832005

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Livius - That's not how it is Islam is about treating people justly whether Muslim or Christian or Jewish. Islam isn't about opressing people.

 

If it isn't about opressing people then why do so many Muslims feel the need to be in charge? Is it just to have non-Muslim pay a higher tax and not allow them high political office and not allow them to serve in the armed forces? How is that just? How is it just that a person can be killed for converting from Islam to another religion?

 

I know you may feel that Sharia is a great thing, but to non-Muslims it is inherently unjust. It is a system in which non-Muslims are second class citizens. Actually they are below that as only Muslims are truly considered citizens of a Kalifate.

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Bismillah,

 

 

Salaam,

 

I think the definition of secularism was wrong to begin wiht. Secularism is the seperation of church and state, the seperation of religion from politics. But, we know in Islam that religion and politics cannot be seperated. When we look into the life of our dear Prophet (s) we see that he established a government in Medina and fought for it. If governments and politics were something that should be outside of Islam the Prophet would not have done that. Regarding dealing with other religions, we should see what Islam says, we should look and see what the Prophet did.

 

fi amanillah

insight

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If it isn't about opressing people then why do so many Muslims feel the need to be in charge? Is it just to have non-Muslim pay a higher tax and not allow them high political office and not allow them to serve in the armed forces? How is that just? How is it just that a person can be killed for converting from Islam to another religion?

 

I know you may feel that Sharia is a great thing, but to non-Muslims it is inherently unjust. It is a system in which non-Muslims are second class citizens. Actually they are below that as only Muslims are truly considered citizens of a Kalifate.

 

There are some misconceptions in your post. Let me clarify.

 

a Non-Muslim doesnt necessarily have to pay a higher tax. However, if the non-muslim CITIZEN wishes, he can refuse to give up paying the tax altogether and instead join the Army. A non-muslim can also have any political position within the state except that of Caliph.

 

For more , google some info about the Medinah Charter.

 

Salaams

Edited by anthony19832005

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If it isn't about opressing people then why do so many Muslims feel the need to be in charge? Is it just to have non-Muslim pay a higher tax and not allow them high political office and not allow them to serve in the armed forces? How is that just? How is it just that a person can be killed for converting from Islam to another religion?

 

I know you may feel that Sharia is a great thing, but to non-Muslims it is inherently unjust. It is a system in which non-Muslims are second class citizens. Actually they are below that as only Muslims are truly considered citizens of a Kalifate.

 

If you look into Sharia bro I am sure you will see it is fair, and would make the world a whoooole lot better.. I wish I could give you a country as an example.. however it's a shame that I don't think there reeally is a country that follows Sharia and is a good example.. so.. yeah (Explains why Muslim countries are failing at the moment) But if there was a country which follows Sharia 100% and is led by Muslims I can tell you now that country would have far less murders, rape, debt, druggies, and drunk dudes on the street. (In theory anyway)

 

 

Mehmet

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Peace

 

If you look into Sharia bro I am sure you will see it is fair

 

He Has looked into Shariah, and he does not accept many things in it which he believes are clearly discriminatory. For him, it would not be the best system, in his opinion. I dont blame him because I would not want to live under another religion's rules either. And probably neither would you...

 

Salaams

Edited by anthony19832005

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I dont blame him because I would not want to live under another religion's rules either. And probably neither would you...

 

 

Neither do i of course but is it true to compare Islam with the other religions? especially in this context ???

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