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Can A Good Muslims Also Be Secularist?

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Peace

My Allegiance would be to Allah(swt) because if I was a secularist (which I am not, actually) I would be so only because I thought it was the best way to create a just and peaceful and prosperous society without giving too much power to corrupt Islamic Scholars who wish to control the masses through religion.

 

Salaams

Assalamualikum

How can your allegiance be with Allah in a secular country. You have to implement the system that Allah sent you if you want to pledge your allegiance to Allah. And i dont think "corrupt religious scholars" are given any power in the Khilafah....its the kaliph and the courts and stuff in the Islamic system that implement the laws and stuff. And i think we have seen what a "peaceful and prosporous society" the secular countries of today have brought.

 

Assalamualikum

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Even if "perfect" Sharia exists, how long would it last? Even the rightly guided Kalifs could only keep it going for a short period of time.

800 years of Islamic influence/rule is a short period of time?

 

Wassalam,

Yasnov

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Yes, that is a fact. The differences between then and now, though, are immense. Almost every nation in the world at the time was oppressive in some fashion. In the present day you can choose many nations in which you can practice your religion freely and political office is not determined by what your religion is. That was not the case in the times of which you speak. Today quite the opposite is occurring. Non-Muslims are leaving Muslim lands in droves, heading to the places where political and religious freedom are more prevalent.

 

Peace

Why cant you people understand that there is no Islamic rule today, no Islamic state to implement Islamic law....ofcourse they will leave muslim lands today because there is no Islamic law...i was talking about the Khilafah and how people were happy living under it ......do you see a Caliphate today?.. i dont think so.

Peace

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The threads title is "Can A Good Muslims Also Be Secularist?"

 

The answer is no whichever way you want to look at it.

 

A "good muslim" does not put the laws of man before the laws of Allah - simple as. Branding yourself with the word "secularist" is as if branding yourself with another religion you are following with another set of rules. A "good muslim" is a Muslim first and foremost, and obeys Allah first and foremost (I don't expect the non-religious people to understand this) That's how it is.

 

 

Mehmet

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corrupt Islamic Scholars who wish to control the masses through religion.

:sl:

Corruption occurs in every system and thereby masses are controlled .

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:sl:

thought it was the best way to create a just and peaceful and prosperous society

All of the above terms are very ambiguous and need to be defined clearly . They have different definitions for a humanist, muslim, communist and for every other religon/way of life or ideology .

In the Quran Allah states the greatest injustice is polytheism and disbelief .

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There was no, there is no, and perhaps there will never be in history a society with 100% Muslim population, or 100% Christian population, or 100% atheists. So, I don't get bout the un-Islamic parts.

 

 

 

You say that Islam does not coerce people to become Muslims. I say that Sharia law forces people into Islam by limiting any other choice of lifestyle. Therefore, Sharia law over a country is coercion, and thus un-Islamic. Good muslims would therefore be against implelmenting sharia law over any society which contains any Non-Muslims. Sharia law can only be properly implemented over the self.

 

 

How can your allegiance be with Allah in a secular country. You have to implement the system that Allah sent you if you want to pledge your allegiance to Allah.

 

SJ54, are you claiming that if a muslim does not force his country into Sharia law, he is not a true Muslim? Is it your belief that muslims should take over their countries and bend them to their own personal beliefs, despite the wishes of his fellow citizens?

 

Dangerous road there SJ. This is the type of thinking that has many Westerners fearful of and hostile to muslims. You do not have the right to force me to follow sharia law, no matter what your holy caravan leader tells you.

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800 years of Islamic influence/rule is a short period of time?
Was it 800 years of true Sharia? Yes or no?

 

....ofcourse they will leave muslim lands today because there is no Islamic law...i was talking about the Khilafah and how people were happy living under it

 

They were content to live under it because it was better than the alternatives at the time. That would not be the case today.

 

Shariah may mean different things in the eyes of the people, however, it is most certainly defined.
Then please answer the questions I asked in my previous post.

 

Gnuneo said that there was a moslem congressman elected in America today ..and this is the year 2007.

 

Muslims make up roughly .6 or .7% of the population, with many of those being identified as Muslim being Nation of Islam. Proportionally they should have about one person in the House.

 

You still didn't answer my question though about the other nations you said were more advanced.

Edited by Livius

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I say that Sharia law forces people into Islam by limiting any other choice of lifestyle.

If you feel forced, it could be just your feeling. Luke also says that he feels inferior ...Btw, Western system also limit any other choice of lifestyle in many aspects.

 

Was it 800 years of true Sharia? Yes or no?

To be safe, let's say that 100 years is not really true sharia, but 700 years is still quite a long time.

 

Muslims make up roughly .6 or .7% of the population, with many of those being identified as Muslim being Nation of Islam. Proportionally they should have about one person in the House.
Well my point actually why boasted about 1 Muslim being elected as congressman in America. It is weird ... sounds like this is not something normal in the US.

 

You still didn't answer my question though about the other nations you said were more advanced.

My country

 

Wassalam,

Yasnov

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How can your allegiance be with Allah in a secular country. You have to implement the system that Allah sent you if you want to pledge your allegiance to Allah.

 

SJ54, are you claiming that if a muslim does not force his country into Sharia law, he is not a true Muslim? Is it your belief that muslims should take over their countries and bend them to their own personal beliefs, despite the wishes of his fellow citizens?

 

Dangerous road there SJ. This is the type of thinking that has many Westerners fearful of and hostile to muslims. You do not have the right to force me to follow sharia law, no matter what your holy caravan leader tells you.

 

I didnt say that he is not a true muslim......The Khilafah system is obligatory on all muslims ...full stop....i didnt say anything about forcing his country ....what the hell are you talking about....and it is not my personal belief ...it is a belief of all the muslims.....HA "dangerous road" ? what dangerous road.....if we had the calphate, you and your armies would be pissing in your pants if you even thought about invading our lands and killing millions of innocent muslims. Whos doing all the killing ...and ur calling our way of life dangerous.....Your armies cant defeat a few mujahideen....if we had the khilafah do you think you would be able stand up to the might of the muslim army.....so you see, we need our way of life to protect us from savages and violent extremists that live in the west.

and i am not forcing you to follow our law.....and what holy caravan leader are you talking about.....my leader is the greatest man in the whole of creation Muhamad(saw) and my lord and your lord is Allah...

 

You westerners are scared of us?...its you 'westerners' that have destroyed the muslim world, its you westerners who kill our people.....its you westerners who have destroyd our countries....your the ones dropping bombs and your scared of us??????why????? we should be scared of blood thirsty savages that live in the west.

Edited by SJ54

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......

If my country were ever to come under the rule of any Islamic leader, I would fight them like a rabid dog... but I think I would fight you with much less enthusiasm Attilla. You too Anthony. You two are enough to restore a man's faith in the possible harmony of the West and Islam. Not completely, but you're doing good.

 

Ofcourse...western hypocrytes only like and listen to people who dont oppose them...

Edited by SJ54

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And there is no way that implementing sharia law over a country with any non-muslim population will go over well. It's akin to forcing muslims to live by strict Catholic doctrine. It will cause tension and eventually violence. My suggestion? Implement sharia law over yourself and yourself only. Alllah doesn't want you to drink? Don't drink.

No one wants to implement Islamic law on your satanic countries...its your civilization that doesnt let us muslims live how we want in the muslim countries.....we dont stop you from living under democracy...then why do you not stop trying to 'save the poor oppressed people' and let us live under whatever we want....

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Shias and sunnis lived peacefully for centuries until u devils came in....why do you satans support the warlords in somalia who are making the muslims lives a living hell in somaila

WHAT IS MORE SATANIC...BEHEADING SOMEONE...OR KILLING NEARLY A MILLION PEOPLE IN 3 YEARS (IRAQ)

AND WHAT MURDERS AND SLAUGHTERINGS ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT...COULD YOU TELL ME BECAUSE THE LAST TIME I CHECKED IT WAS THE COALITION OF THE WILLING WHO WAS DOING ALL THE KILLING.....YOUR THE HYPOCRYTES ...YOU CAN HAVE ALL THE TECHNOLOGY AND MAKE WHATEVER BOMBS YOU WANT BUT WHEN A MUSLIM COUNTRY TRIES TO AQCUIRE A NEW TECHNOLOGY....YOU DONT LIKE IT .....

 

AND NO ONE TOLD ANY ONE TO STOP DRINKING BEER ...WHERE THE HELL DID YOU GET THAT FROM...WERE YOU DRUNK?

Edited by SJ54

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peace people, peace.

 

And i think we have seen what a "peaceful and prosporous society" the secular countries of today have brought.

 

no, many countries of the west have their own problems, but it is not secularism per se that is causing them, that is a quite disengenius argument. The problems of the west are caused by a number of reasons, and one of the main ones is the concentration of wealth in very few hands, who then create scapegoats to justify military adventures to take the majority populations mind off the fact that this minority is living in glorious wealth and luxury whilst most people are living in debt and poverty. This has NOTHING to do with secularism, it is a very common facet of human civilisation even including Islamic countries. It happened a LOT under christian rule, perhaps you have heard of the crusades? In fact, one of the gains from secularisation has been the slow growth in understanding about this process, and now something can be done about it whereas before the Church would claim that this system was "ordained by God" and would have anyone opposing branded as satanic or heretic and killed - now though the thugs in charge have either to go through the courts, or use political assassination, and risk getting caught for it.

 

its not much of an improvement, but its still an improvement. Also, the countries that have most moved to a modern democratic state, ie the scandinavian countries, *have* created largely peaceful and prosperous societies, albeit with a little too much racism and zenophobia, but that is a perennial problem of northern europe, again little to do with secularism.

 

should western populations be ashamed of what 'our' leaders are doing in our name? Yes most certainly, and many many are, and many tried to prevent it:

 

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetyoutube(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/watch?v=02cACD5nVc8"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetyoutube(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/watch?v=02cACD5nVc8[/url]

 

please remember this when you are angry at what is happening, many of those killed in the london attack would have been opposed to the war in iraq, many of the people in the Uk and america are horrified by the war (even if the media just make out its because of american losses this is not true, that is just the deliberate focus of the media), there are many movements to end this slaughter and to prevent it from spreading to iran. Most of these will be secular people, who do not want to live under sharia or moslem rule, but have high morality anyway, enough to risk the displeasure of our political leaders and police and organise against their policies.

 

you will perhaps remember that george bush, without whom the iraq war would not have happened, is a devout 'christian', and wishes to remove the secular restrictions within the american constitution. Religion is great - for the individual. Its not so good when its forced down your throat. If you live in the west, would you like to be forced to go to church and drink wine every sunday?

 

somehow, i think not.

 

 

salaam.

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....and with all the murder and slaughter going on in muslims countries , how dare you call the west satanic ?

 

What do you call what muslims are doig in Darfur to black muslims ? Saintly behavior ?

What about what Sunnis and Shia are doing to each other in Iraq ?

 

What do you call beheading Buddhist monks in Thailand ?

 

YOU HYPOCRITES

 

 

Curtis, this question is a little bit off the topic, but - do you live in America?

 

 

Mehmet

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Many moslems beleive that their system is perfect....'m not just talking about moslems either...some moslems here have...people from moslem countries to the West.... In america recently there was elected a moslem congressman...(reversed) freedom within a moslem country?

 

We're not Moslems (pronounced close to Mah-slem)

 

We're Muslims (the M-U being sounded out as a short "Moo" sound, and the "slim" sounding like slim).

 

Salam.

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at the tun of the 20th century, the term used was often 'musselman'. I don't think the exact spelling of the word particularly matters. :sl:

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If you feel forced, it could be just your feeling. Luke also says that he feels inferior ...Btw, Western system also limit any other choice of lifestyle in many aspects.
How does the Western system limit your lifestyle? How does it limit you from practicing your religion?

 

To be safe, let's say that 100 years is not really true sharia, but 700 years is still quite a long time.

 

So let's look at the practice of Sharia in these 700 years.

 

Building of churches and synagogues was forbidden and could only be repaired with permission of the state. Non-Muslims could not pray too loud so that Muslims would not be able to hear them. Non-Muslims paid a higher tax than Muslims and were not allowed to bear arms. Non-Muslims were not allowed to testify against a Muslim in court. Muslims could own non-Muslims as slaves. Non-Muslims could not own Muslims as slaves. If you converted from Islam to another religion you faced death.

 

That is just the tip of the iceberg. This is how it was practiced. Why would any sane person who is not a Muslim want to live under such conditions?

 

Well my point actually why boasted about 1 Muslim being elected as congressman in America. It is weird ... sounds like this is not something normal in the US.
It is not normal in some ways. There are other groups that make up roughly .5% of the population that are not represented. It only makes sense really. It is impossible to have every single minority group represented in Congress.

 

By the way, the United States is best described as a republic, not a democracy.

 

You still didn't answer my question though about the other nations you said were more advanced.

My country

 

What is your country, and how so?

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How does the Western system limit your lifestyle? How does it limit you from practicing your religion?

I cannot fully practice my religion

 

Building of churches and synagogues was forbidden and could only be repaired with permission of the state. Non-Muslims could not pray too loud so that Muslims would not be able to hear them. Non-Muslims paid a higher tax than Muslims and were not allowed to bear arms. Non-Muslims were not allowed to testify against a Muslim in court. Muslims could own non-Muslims as slaves. Non-Muslims could not own Muslims as slaves. If you converted from Islam to another religion you faced death.
Do you know ijtihad? ....And the fact is the Sharia used to be the best and most tolerant in its time. And Not everything from the past must be copied in great details.

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(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yethispanicmuslims(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/andalusia/andalusia.html"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yethispanicmuslims(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/andalusia/andalusia.html[/url]

 

It is not normal in some ways. There are other groups that make up roughly .5% of the population that are not represented. It only makes sense really. It is impossible to have every single minority group represented in Congress.

So, what is the strong point of mentioning that the US has a Muslim congressman?

 

What is your country, and how so?

Iraq, Iran, Indonesia, Malaysia etc

 

Wassalam,

Yasnov

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Why would you believe that the ONLY person with the necessary purity to implement God's law on earth is Jesus (Peace and Blessings be Upon Him)?

 

There is a simple answer to that. As a christian, I believe that jesus was a greater man then all of the other prophets. In fact, he's more than a prophet. I can't help believing that; it's a central tenet. :sl:

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I cannot fully practice my religion

 

What specifically are you prevented from doing in practicing your religion?

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And Not everything from the past must be copied in great details.

 

alas, fundamentalists would disagree. (and that goes for jewish and christian fundies as well).

 

look, there is definitely a great deal of misinformation in western countries about what shariah law entails, and what it achieves. but the fact of the matter is that western people do NOT want to live under religious law (again), and frankly, having travelled through iran and turkey and pakistan, i can actually see why such concern is a good thing, even if made under ignorance.

 

i like seeing women allowed to wear what they want, date who they want, i like people being able to choose their own religion and partners, i like the growth in personal freedom to take the chemicals the individual wants, i like being able to choose non-majority-religious people to sit in parliament. You can say all these things may be open to discussion, but frankly they are clearly NOT.

 

Now whilst in the west it is legitimate to hold opinions the majority find distasteful, i would also say that there is little scarier to many westerners than hearing (primarily young) moslems saying they want to bring in shariah law over western populations, and such opinions do not endear Islam to the general population. This is perhaps similar to jewish people opining that they REALLY want to own all the banks, and that perhaps greater israel should stretch over europe with the europeans joining the palestinian people in 'liberty'...

 

its really just a no-no.

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I cannot fully practice my religion
That is not an answer. Give me an example of how living in the West keeps you from practicing your religion.

 

Do you know ijtihad? ....And the fact is the Sharia used to be the best and most tolerant in its time. And Not everything from the past must be copied in great details.

 

Yes, it was one of the most tolerant in its time. For the 14th century is was tolerant. For the 21st century it is not. The rest of the world has advanced when it comes to freedoms. Even your golden age of Spain would be a step back compared to what we have today. There is a reason that the Christians rebelled and kicked out the Muslims, and it was not because they were thrilled with Moorish rule.

 

What exactly do you mean by "not everything from the past must be copied in great details"? Do you mean that Sharia is flexible? Do you mean you would change things about how Sharia was implemented in the past if it was implemented today?

 

Can you look at my post #45 on this thread and answer any of the questions I asked about Sharia? It seems all the pro-Sharia members here have completely ignored them.

 

What is your country, and how so?

 

Iraq, Iran, Indonesia, Malaysia etc

 

Again you did not answer the question. Why are you so evasive Yasnov? Tell me how the USA is lagging behind Iran and Iraq and Malaysia.

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Yasnov,

 

If you feel forced, it could be just your feeling. Luke also says that he feels inferior ...Btw, Western system also limit any other choice of lifestyle in many aspects

 

I don't feel inferior at all, I'm just saying that implementing sharia law unfairly limits a person's choice of lifestyle by forcing them to conform to muslim ideals. And I agree that Western society also limits choices in other ways. I'm a Libertarian man, I believe that in a truly free society a person should be able to watch pornography, own a thousand guns, smoke opium, read Mein Kampf, The Communist Manifesto, the Bible, and the Quran,drive without a seat-belt, and get a Gay marriage all in the same day without government interference. As long as it doesn't hurt another person or damage/steal their property, it should be legal. If Sharia Law was established over non-muslims, it would be as bad as the Patriot Act or McCarthy's Anti-Communism laws. Tyranny, plain and simple.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Alright SJ, settle down. You said to Anthony that You have to implement the system that Allah sent you if you want to pledge your allegiance to Allah. That sounded to me like you were saying that he must implement Sharia law in his country. If that's not what you were getting at, please explain what you meant.

 

I said the idea that Muslims should implement sharia over non-muslims is a dangerous road, as it will lead to violence among muslims and non-muslims. i doubt anyone would argue with me on that point.

 

And yes, when Muslims speak about the worldwide kaliphate and bringing the world under Islamic law, as you seem to be saying, Westerners grow somewhat fearful. I don't think there's anything wrong with wantiong to preserve your own culture.

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Alright SJ, settle down. You said to Anthony that You have to implement the system that Allah sent you if you want to pledge your allegiance to Allah. That sounded to me like you were saying that he must implement Sharia law in his country. If that's not what you were getting at, please explain what you meant.

 

I said the idea that Muslims should implement sharia over non-muslims is a dangerous road, as it will lead to violence among muslims and non-muslims. i doubt anyone would argue with me on that point.

 

And yes, when Muslims speak about the worldwide kaliphate and bringing the world under Islamic law, as you seem to be saying, Westerners grow somewhat fearful. I don't think there's anything wrong with wantiong to preserve your own culture.

 

ok i am sorry if i sounded a bit harsh...

 

Anthony said that his allegiance would be to Allah even in a secular country...then i said that the law that god has sent us should be implemented in order to pledge pur allegiance to god....i mean you have to follow what god has ordered you to follow if you want to 'pledge ur allegiance to him'.

 

Muslims just want to implement Islam on muslims in the muslim world..we do not want to implement Islamic law on the west ...we dont care ......live how you want...but the problem is you dont let us live how we want.

 

If i have said that i want to bring the world under Islamic law i apologise for that. When muslims talk about a worldwide caliphate we mean the Islamic world not the west.......i support the saying 'live and let live' ....but the west doesnt let us live.

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