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What Exactly Does This Mean?

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"Allah's Apostle once said to a group of women : 'I have not seen any one more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious, sensible man could be led astray by some of you.' The women asked: 'O Allah's Apostle, what is deficient in our intelligence and religion?' He said: 'Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?' They replied in the affirmative. He said: 'This is the deficiency of your intelligence' ... 'Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?' The women replied in the affirmative. He said: 'This is the deficiency in your religion.'"

 

-Sahih Bukhari, Arabic-English translation, vol. 1, 1 Hadith No. 301. See also vol. 3, Hadith No. 826.

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:sl:

 

Go here

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetesnips(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/doc/3f5cfccc-1f85-4b25-b3e3-dfa8e7429947/Hadith-of-Deficiency-of-Women.pdf"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetesnips(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/doc/3f5cfccc-1f85-4b...cy-of-Women.pdf[/url]

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its a PDF. You should be able to view it, do you have (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetdownload(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/Adobe-Reader/3000-2378_4-10614498.html?tag=lst-0-1"]adobe reader[/url]?

 

if you use firefox you can also read it directly, with (you are not allowed to post links yet)"https://addons.mozilla(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/firefox/636/"]this[/url] add-on.

 

 

BTW, the same arguments have been heard in the west throughout history, this is hardly unique to Islam/judaism/christianity.

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:sl:

 

Question:

 

Regarding the hadeeth:

 

Narrated Abu Sa`id Al-Khudri: Once Allah's Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) o `Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, "O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women)." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Apostle ?" He replied, "You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you." The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion." [bukhari: 1.301]

 

There are some that like to make this hadeeth imply that Allah did not create woman and men to have equal chance at attaining paradise. Is there a reply or an explanation to this hadeeth?

 

 

Answer:

 

 

It contains:

 

"I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women)"

 

Which is prophetic information that he delivered. Then, "Why is it so" a question is asked about "why." Then the answer was given.

 

"You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you." And: He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion."

 

So after further questioning he explained further. The information was given to exhort giving charity, to save oneself from the Fire. This need applies to both men and women, but he (sall Allahu `alaihi wa sallam) was addressing women at this point, so he directed his address to them.

 

As far as the observation, that it seems to

 

"suggest women were 'created deficient'"

 

It does not mention anything about women's creation. It refers to matters of iman and disobedience.

 

The more one obeys Allah the stronger their iman, and the more one obeys Shaytan, the weaker their iman, and the Fire will contain more people whose iman was very weak, than those whose iman was stronger.

 

Prayer and fasting are part of iman, saying the truth is part of iman, one who does not pray nor fast, and one who says what is not true, it will be said that this person has infringed on some matters of iman.

 

So charity was mentioned as a means of making up the defeciency. This is because the woman not praying and fasting while on her menses is a matter that she has no choice over. But, even with the excuse, since prayer is a means of preventing one from fahishah and munkar, wherever it is lacking - for whatever the reason - it will not be a means of warding off fahishah and munkar. Therefore, while a person is not performing the prayer, they are more prone to commit fahishah and munkar. Allah said (which means):

 

(Establish the salah, for indeed the salah prevents from al-fahishah' and al-munkar.) (al-`Ankaboot 29:42)

 

While, fundamentally, giving charity is exhorted to ward off the Fire, and not just for women. As is found in the famous hadith: "Whoever among you is able to ward off the Fire even if with a piece of a date, then let him do so." or as he (sall Allahu `alaihi wa sallam) said in the Two Sahihs and others.

 

Conversly, Hell is filled with those who left off faith, and followed Shaytan, committing adultery, theft, backbitting, slander, and a host of other crimes. These are both men and women. So the mere observation that men and women will be in the Fire, does not necessitate that they were created in a manner that was worse than some other creatures.

 

This is because humans can excell many other creatures through faith.

 

So the hadith in question is authentic, and the information in it is true and to be believed in, but the speculation about such matters as "women are created deficient" is argumentative.

 

Allah describes the creation of humans with descriptions that imply they are deficient, that is, they created with needs that only He can fulfill. This applies to men and women, since they are both humans. Allah said (which means):

 

(And man is ever hasty) (al-Isra' 17:11)

 

He said: (which means):

(And He gave you all of that you asked for, and if you count the Blessings of Allah, you will never be able to count them. Verily man is indeed an extreme wrongdoer, kafaar.) (Ibrahim 14:34)

 

And the meaning of "kafaar" here is like Allah's saying (which means):

 

(Verily, man is ungrateful to His Lord) (al-`Aadiyaat 100:6)

 

And He said: (which means):

(Verily man was created very impatient; irritable when evil touches him, and stingy when good touches him, except those who pray, and those in whose wealth there is a recognized right. For the beggar who, asks....) (Al-Ma`aarij 70:19-25)

 

He said: (which means):

 

(Nay! Verily man does transgress. Because he considers himself self-sufficient) (al-`Alaq 96:6-7)

And many other ayaat describe humans with deficient traits. This is because the human is in need of his or her Lord.

 

Similarly in one of the narrations of the hadith in question, the Prophet (sall Allahu `alaihi wa sallam) said: "Most of its inhabitants are women, yakfurn." So they said: "Ayakfurna billah?" That is most of them are ungrateful, and they asked: "Ungrateful to Allah?" So he answered: "Ungrateful to their husbands, and ungrateful for beneficence, if you always do good to one of them, then they see something in you, she will say: 'I have never seen any good from you.'"

 

So the issue is that man is ungrateful, that is men and women to their Lord, and the woman is ungrateful, to her husband.

 

As for the traits in the case of women, they are described in the literature, not praying nor fasting during menses, being ungrateful to their husbands, etc.

 

So similarly Allah mentioned that humans are impatient and ungrateful, and then He said, except those who pray, and are charitable, etc, as mentioned above.

 

This should make it clear, as I said earlier, that salah and other acts of iman, increase one's iman, and ward off its opposite, the more iman one does, the stronger one becomes, the less of it, the weaker, the more wrong one does, the worse in wrong one becomes, the less of this the more of that and vice versa.

 

So it should not seem that the hadith implies women deficient, since it explains that those who do less of prayer and fasting, for a valid reason, should make up for the less acts of faith, with more acts of faith, like charity, which is prescribed to help save oneself from the Fire, for both men, and women.

 

Lastly, in a narration recorded by at-Tirmidhi and others that Umm `Ammaarah al-Ansariyah came to the Prophet (sall Allahu `alaihi wa sallam) and said: "I do not see but that everything is for the men, and I do not see that women are mentioned with anything." So this ayah was revealed:

 

(Indeed the Muslim men, and the Muslim women...) (Allah has prepared for them forgiveness, and a great reward)

Similar was recorded by Ahmad. So this is the general rule, those who have faith and do righteous deeds, etc., as described in the ayah, are those for whom the reward and forgiveness is prepared.

 

 

And Allah knows best

 

was-salamu `alaykum

 

Abu Khaliyl

Edited by al-malabari

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so it is saying that women are not inherently inferior, just that their particular circumstances mean they have to work harder than a man to gain the same 'spiritual blessing'?

 

well, i think many women can see truth in there that is not just limited to 'spiritual blessing'. :sl:

 

 

i also find it of note that there are few criticisms of men who over-criticise their wives (although i am 99% sure there are some, i have a vague memory of reading something about 'respecting ones wife'), but then again Islam is truly a patriarchal religion (following post-babylon judaism and post-paul christianity).

 

i have noticed, called it a personal empirical fact, that societies that have higher female involvement in society/politics etc, tend to be far more advanced. Thus although for some centuries during the dark ages in christian europe where women were little more than breeding cattle Islam was a beacon of civilisation and development, but now it is the scandinavian countries that have pulled ahead.

 

 

Just noting is all. One can wonder what a religion created by women would look like, i suspect there would be less 'Holy Wars', less anti-sensuality, and more day-care centres. :sl:

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i heard the new feminine bible is out where mothers and daughters are also included :sl: :sl: :j:

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:sl:

 

women leading or not leading doesn't make a diff in my experience. look at bangladesh two women have exchanged powers for the last 15 years and the country is still in shambles. it's the human nature that causes thing to go astray.

 

:sl:

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so it is saying that women are not inherently inferior, just that their particular circumstances mean they have to work harder than a man to gain the same 'spiritual blessing'?

 

It says nothing about them working harder to gain the same level of iman. It's talking about the truth; that women tend to gossip, throw tantrums, slander, and do all kinds of things that men aren't usually attributed to. Everyone knows this.

 

i have a vague memory of reading something about 'respecting ones wife')
"And among His signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves that you may dwell in tranquillity with them and He has put love and mercy between your hearts: verily in that are signs for those who reflect." (Surah Al Rum 30:21)

 

Just noting is all. One can wonder what a religion created by women would look like, i suspect there would be less 'Holy Wars', less anti-sensuality, and more day-care centres.

 

Women aren't as angelic as you seem to think.

 

Salam.

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It says nothing about them working harder to gain the same level of iman. It's talking about the truth; that women tend to gossip,
men would but they are generally too stupid.

 

throw tantrums,

 

instead they just get stressed and beat up weaker people

 

slander,
men are pretty good at this in my experience.

 

and do all kinds of things that men aren't usually attributed to. Everyone knows this.

 

and women don't often start wars, or beat up their children and spouses.

 

 

there are differnces between the genders - i just note when the rule-book is written by the one, the other tends to get denigrated somewhat.

 

 

"And among His signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves that you may dwell in tranquillity with them and He has put love and mercy between your hearts: verily in that are signs for those who reflect." (Surah Al Rum 30:21)
thats quite mild. I thought there was a stronger one, in the area of the koran that deals with womens rights? Could be wrong about the placement, but i'm sure there something there stronger than that. I *hope* so anyway. :sl:

 

Women aren't as angelic as you seem to think.

 

LOL - humans are humans, not Angels, no matter what sex. I just happen to note that societies where women have stood up and refused to be second class citizens have progressed far faster than societies dominated by men. There are in fact good reasons for this, involving early socialisation and child care, the effects of empowerment upon the individual, - to put it bluntly, a mother who is highly educated and does not feel embittered towards men, is a better mother than a poorly educated and resentful one. For both sons and daughters. And those children grow up to be adults, and take their place in society some day.

 

people are not angels, but treat them as people, and not second class citizens/servants/slaves, and they will be far better people.

 

 

Salaam, and Love be upon thy House.

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:sl:

There are so many verses in the Qur'an that criticizes mankind as a whole including verses that criticizes the prophet himself ( peace be upon him)

Yes, Islam is patriarchal if you want to call it that , Men have a different role from that of women.

 

What exactly is "progress" ?

 

Are single mothers signs of progress?

What about women's body being exploited to sell everything from candy to cars?

Legalized prostitution?

Pornography?

 

IMHO, Having advanced technology and what not when there are so many social problems is not progress but regression.

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I suppose the feminist movement is dead in Islam?

 

what do you mean by feminist movement?-women fighting for thier rights?what rights?

 

if you mean the rights to work,or movement against abuse of women of any sort-then Islam gives all of these rights to women.Islam does not forbid it.actually Islam even gives more than these rights-it gives us protection aswell.

 

women are not an object of attraction or entertainment,women and thier dignity are to be respected.Islam gives all of this.

by wearing hijab we are telling others-'hey i am no for sale and you cannot do what ever you want with me,you have to respect'-this is the true meaning of hijab

 

Islam does not restrict any womens rights

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There are so many verses in the Qur'an that criticizes mankind as a whole including verses that criticizes the prophet himself ( peace be upon him)
it is a terrible shame that Jesus also did not write his own book, many problems associated with christianity came about because it was written by zealous followers, and not the person who wrote "the meek shall inherit the Earth".

 

Yes, Islam is patriarchal if you want to call it that , Men have a different role from that of women.

 

men are firmly in control of Islam.

What exactly is "progress" ?

 

Are single mothers signs of progress?

can be, better a single mother who has a network of support, than haivng a father who is abuisive towards the children and woman.

 

What about women's body being exploited to sell everything from candy to cars?

 

you would prefer male bodies? :j: :sl:

Legalized prostitution?
definitely. As long as there are protections for the women, such as brothels only being legal if they are run as partnerships by the women, and not local mafia types.

 

Pornography?

 

pornography is in the mind of the observer, this is undisputable. And yes, it should most certainly be legal, and that is a sign of progress.

IMHO, Having advanced technology and what not when there are so many social problems is not progress but regression.
and to a large extent i agree. Technology can both help and hinder progress, technology gave us hot showers, clothing, books, travel, global commmunication tools - it also gave us WMD.

 

social-technological progress is best measured by the *uses* of technology, not by its unfettered worship.

 

if you mean the rights to work,or movement against abuse of women of any sort-then Islam gives all of these rights to women.Islam does not forbid it.actually Islam even gives more than these rights-it gives us protection aswell.

 

Yes, for its time Islam was very advanced, it even allowed women to divorce their husbands, which would have been seen as evil and decadent by the christians and jews of the time. But improvements have been made since then, especially can be seen in scandinavian society.

 

women are not an object of attraction or entertainment,women and thier dignity are to be respected.Islam gives all of this.

by wearing hijab we are telling others-'hey i am no for sale and you cannot do what ever you want with me,you have to respect'-this is the true meaning of hijab

 

some women *like* having attention upon them, because in the West women are allowed to choose whom they wish to sleep with/marry, and do not need the permission of their father or priest. In the same way some women do not want male attention, and wear the hijab. It is best to leave it up to the individual.

 

note: i have travelled through both turkey and iran, and in turkey the hijab was seen as a right to fight for by most women, because it is legislated against. In iran the hijab is something to be fought against, as wearing it is enforced. I say (and this is supported by most Islamic scholars?) that the hijab should be a personal choice.

 

also, in the West such rights as to be respected as a woman do not require the wearing of the hijab - women (in theory and slowly in practice) have full and equal rights to men, no matter what or how they dress. And i noticed, when i lived in denmark, that in many cases the biggest offenders against 'women's respect' were young muslim males who had not learned to control their desires for the danish women, yet also had no grasp on how to gain normalised social contact with them, and at the same time were being told by the more fundamentalists amongst them that danish women were haram and not to be respected at all - leading to great problems of social interaction, and an appalling level of rape. This is where the west has advanced - no longer is a woman only to be respected by what she wears, she is to be respected at all times.

 

that seems like an improvement to me, at least.

 

 

peace and love. :sl:

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Peace be upon those who follow true guidance

 

Check these links out:

 

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetzaytuna(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/articleDetails.asp?articleID=50"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetzaytuna(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/articleDetails.asp?articleID=50[/url]

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_qa.sunnipath(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/issue_view.asp?HD=10&ID=9406&CATE=135"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_qa.sunnipath(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/issue_view.asp?HD=...06&CATE=135[/url]

 

Here's what a brother had to say on the subject:

 

"The definition of a woman's "deficiency in intellect" according to the hadith is that she isn't permitted to testify like a man in most cases. The hadith isn't saying "women are deficient in intellect, therefore they cannot testify" it's saying the reverse. The fact that women have not been permitted to testify in equal numbers IS the deficiency itself. No particular reason is given as to why."

 

These other posts are answers to somebody's allegations, so try to read between the lines:

 

"Read the rest of the hadith. The "deficiency in religion" is defined by the fact that they don't need to pray during the menstrual cycle. They are PHYSICALLY ABLE of praying during this time, but they are not permitted to do so. Same exact concept.

 

Actually, most people would consider not having to fast or pray during the menstrual period a mercy, because one needs their rest during that time. So I guess you have to reconsider the word "naqsan" or decrease/diminishment/deficiency being used. It's not necessarily a bad thing, it certainly doesn't link to an inherent problem with women, but rather, something they are prohibited from doing."

 

"Yes, "because God says so" is all we need.

 

Men and women are rewarded by God for obeying what God says, not by competing in particular actions. A woman can enter Paradise at a higher station than a man by virtue of clinging more sincerely to her obligations than the man. And that's where it really counts.

 

How insulting the delivery is, is more a matter of which english as a second language guy translated it. I find the actual words of the Prophet (pbuh) to always be very eloquent and polite even on the most sensitive matters."

 

"As I showed you, we are quite fortunate that the hadith gives us two types of "deficiencies" whose formats are phrased analogously, so we can't get carried away.

 

Maybe your problem is that you are equating the word intellect with "intelligience" such that you are interpretting the phrase "deficiency in intellect" in Arabic (naqisat aql) to mean "less intelligent".

 

I don't think that's fair, because the phrase "naqisat deen" (deficient in religion) didn't mean "less religious/less spiritual" it plainly meant "had less religious obligations to worry about".

 

Maybe giving testimony is considered a heavy social burden? Maybe it's something to which a high degree of accountability is assigned, such that if you make an error during testimony it is counted heavily against you. In that light, you DON'T want to be called to give testimony often. You would prefer that someone else do it whenever possible."

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also, in the West such rights as to be respected as a woman do not require the wearing of the hijab - women (in theory and slowly in practice) have full and equal rights to men, no matter what or how they dress. And i noticed, when i lived in denmark, that in many cases the biggest offenders against 'women's respect' were young muslim males who had not learned to control their desires for the danish women, yet also had no grasp on how to gain normalised social contact with them, and at the same time were being told by the more fundamentalists amongst them that danish women were haram and not to be respected at all - leading to great problems of social interaction, and an appalling level of rape. This is where the west has advanced - no longer is a woman only to be respected by what she wears, she is to be respected at all times.

 

that seems like an improvement to me, at least.

 

peace.

 

guess what?Islam does not 'force' any of us to do anything.Islam has given women the rights to choose who ever she wants to marry-you might have not heard about it but father's are not supposed to force thier daughters in to a marriage that the girl is not happy of.but if a girl chooses herself a husband,then her father or her gurdian has the right to check whether that person has enough capability to look after her-that is what muslims are sopposed to do.

Islam asks all of us to respect all of the others-let that be a muslim or a non muslim,

 

you might see many muslims not practicing this at all-that is human nature.this doesnot meann all of us are like that.

 

if some people who call themselves muslims dont practice what they should,it doesnt mean that that is what Islam asks us to do.

 

not going to belive me?take a deep look in to Islam NOT through media.take an Islam's reliable source and check it out.

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why then does this happen? Why does Islam keep slipping into these non-Islamic social forms? Where and what is the incorrect statement/beleif that leads to this tendency? Fx, in the West the tendency is towards feudal social forms (coalescence towards few holders of wealth and power), and this is because of the flaw that allows unlimited inheritable property, along with non-partnership company structure. All this leads to the hierarchies of wealth and power that are always fighting against the democratic direction of the general public.

 

this is the central flaw of the West, what is the central flaw in Islam?

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it is a terrible shame that Jesus also did not write his own book, many problems associated with christianity came about because it was written by zealous followers, and not the person who wrote "the meek shall inherit the Earth".

 

You made a huge mistake in the first sentence of your argument.

 

Prophet Muhammad did not write the Qur'an. He couldn't even write.

 

Salam.

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There are so many verses in the Qur'an that criticizes mankind as a whole including verses that criticizes the prophet himself ( peace be upon him)

 

and i am sure that mahmet (PBUH) was also often critical of himself, that it was not just slander. And many of the problems in christianity ARE because of when and who wrote the stories. :sl:

 

 

Peace and Love. :sl:

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this is the central flaw of the West, what is the central flaw in Islam?

peace gnuneo

 

it is not a flaw in Islam.there is no central flaw in Islam. there is actually no flaw in Islam.it is the flaw in humans themselves.

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peace haw wa,

 

it is not a flaw in Islam.there is no central flaw in Islam. there is actually no flaw in Islam.

 

i think you've just pointed at the answer to my question. :sl:

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