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ericwilson

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>"You could live your life now believing there is no God, yet once you die you could find out that there is a God, and your going straight to hell. Think about that."

 

A friend of mine, who happens to also be an Atheist, has recently been randomly staring up at the ceiling while we're in class. Someone finally asked him today "why do you keep looking up at the ceiling?", he had been waiting for someone to ask this for the past few days; his response was "I'm praying to the ceiling". Everyone laughed - not sure if he was being serious or not. He stood up, and said "If the ceiling is not a God, then I won't lose anything - and you lot won't gain anything. However, there is a small chance that the ceiling is in fact a God, in which case I will gain massively, and you lot will regret laughing at me".

He was using this ridiculous act to counter-argue the exact same point you just raised - which some of our class mates had raised recently.

 

 

>"You are a mere human, while these advanced dudes have created you from some science which you can't even imagine."

As advanced as it may be, I doubt it's beyond our own science. It would use similar techniques to what we use already - in cloning and genetic engineering.

Perhaps that's beyong the point?? (..sorry..)

 

 

>"You can't can you, does that mean more colours don't exist?"

That depends on how you define colour.

I define it as something like:

A visual representation within the mind, produced by EM radiation within the 400-700 nm range. In which case, we could say that we have seen all of the colours.

 

 

I can't help but think that I'm being pedantic here; but I can't see any meaning behind what you've said, after my above comments...

 

 

>"We believe that EVERYTHING has to have some kind of creator.. right?"

I disagree (obviously).

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PropellerAds

Assalaamu alaikum,

 

Okay well, I'm done then there's no point in me continuing. At the end of the day, if you want to believe in something you will. I gave it my best shot now I need to get some sleep :sl:

 

Take care,

 

Peace

 

 

Mehmet

Edited by Righteous

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I too should sleep.

 

But I would like to say first:

 

My beliefs aren't down to what I want to believe in. I am the complete opposite to a fundamentalist.

I'm desperately waiting for some evidence to show, that supports a God - I really would like to believe in a God, it would change everything for me. But there's simply no evidence.

 

And I'm not going to lie to myself just to make myself and my family happy.

 

 

Good night.

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I really would like to believe in a God, it would change everything for me. But there's simply no evidence.

 

You're evidence that God exists.

 

Even if I weren't a Muslim, I would never believe that this perfect universe and all that is in it, has happened purely by chance. It has nothing to do with blind faith.

 

Salam.

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I would never believe that this perfect universe and all that is in it, has happened purely by chance

 

...and neither do I.

But if you knew anything about Darwinian evolution, then you would realise that it doesn't require a God to be explained.

 

Here's how it is:

 

Everything we see around us can be explained by scientific processes.

The universe -> the big bang

Life -> Darwinian evolution (which is not random!!!)

...

 

What came before the big bang is unknown; but the only difference between me and you, is that I say:

 

"We don't know (at least not yet) what came before the big bang",

 

and you say:

 

"A God must have come before the big bang" (without any evidence.)

 

So my response to that would be:

 

 

My response: "But what evidence do you have to support this idea?"

Your response: "The Qur'an.."

My response: "The Qur'an is not evidence. It is a book."

Your response: "The complexity of the world.."

My response: "That can be explained by science."

Your response: "Well how else was the universe created?"

My response: "I don't know. How do you think?"

Your response: "By God."

My response: "So God must exist in order to explain our origin?"

Your response: "Yes."

My response: "But then how do you explain God's origin? Surely that's even harder to explain?"

Your response: "God is infinite and needs no explanation. He is incomprehensible."

My response: "So why must scientists provide an explanation for the origin of everything, but you get off with 'it was God', without having to explain where God came from?"

Your response: "You're right, it's not at all fair. I realise now that it would be illogical for me to ever use that argument again."

My response: "That is correct. Now read a science book....."

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:sl:

 

Just out of curiosity

ericwilson how much do you know about evolution?

 

I am a Muslim and I also belive in the THEORY of evolution, the two are not mutually exclusive.

That is not to say that I don't have my doughts on certain aspects of the theory, but on the whole it seems to be the best we got.

 

The major flaw with the theory of evolution is that it still does not explain how life began.

I am a biology student and I know how absolutely complex a single bacteria cell is, now to say that a bunch of inorganic molecules randomly collided and then turned into a living cell is a bit far fetched don't you think?

 

so is it not possible that god, much like a software programer, created life and let is flourish?

Is it not possible that god created evolution as a way to let life change and evolve as the earth changes, and also let life be self regulated (under gods guidance of course)?

 

So where you see conflict of religion and science, I see a union of the two.

We know the creator, and now we know HOW he created.

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Are you really a Biology student? At what level?

 

"now to say that a bunch of inorganic molecules randomly collided and then turned into a living cell is a bit far fetched don't you think?"

 

randomly?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

 

 

You know what? Forget about it.

 

You lot are fundamentalists. All of you.

 

I quit.

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You lot are fundamentalists. All of you.

 

This is the problem , Please dont go straight away into extreme of generalizing for all. We are here to give our opinions and discuss and not point eachother like 'You all ' are so and so..... or 'WE all' are so and so....

 

Hope you understand

 

Thanks :sl:

Edited by mac111

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Peace be upon those who follow guidance

 

There are actually people that believe in the following fantasy(evolution):

 

1) Large molecules randomly formed and assymilated into large data storing and biological structures in some moist area

 

2) Others formed a primitive infrastructure for an enclosure, essentially a membrane that engulfed them in a protective shell

 

3) This unit, instead of simply getting dismantled and getting destroyed in an INSTANT, began engulfing and encorporating foreign matter, nutrients and parts, to maintain itself and grow larger

 

4) Then, instead of just falling apart from the introduction of these foreign bodies, it somehow self-regulated its random engulfing, and decided it needed to split in half into two identical copies of itself.

 

5) It divided perfectly in two, retaining copies of its "data" molecules as well as its infrastructure.

 

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

 

I guess when you want to make a myth plausible, just blurt out the old irrational "well maybe it could happen if you wait long enough!"

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Salaam,

 

to throw my two cents in:

 

Omar 786, I also like the 'God as a computer programmer' theory. God says 'run/ let there be light: run/ let there be gravity: run/ let e=mc2: run/ let Man have free will' and now and again just needs to add new lines of 'coding' (run/ Virgin Birth:).

 

Religion and science aren't contradictory, they are complimentary. There are some questions religion can't answer sufficiently (say, quantum physics) and others that science is deficient in answering ('what is the purpose of Man?', how does a grey jelly in our heads make us -us-(and so different). Religion and science are like salt and pepper, you need both to have a fully balanced dish (life). Different people like different amounts, but too much of one and its inedible and too little of another and its bland.

 

Peace and Love,

 

DARLA

 

*having many thoughts about the fact the universe works so well being proof that if God is a programmer, he didn't use Windows*

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...and neither do I.

But if you knew anything about Darwinian evolution, then you would realise that it doesn't require a God to be explained.

 

Here's how it is:

 

Everything we see around us can be explained by scientific processes.

The universe -> the big bang

Life -> Darwinian evolution (which is not random!!!)

...

 

What came before the big bang is unknown; but the only difference between me and you, is that I say:

 

"We don't know (at least not yet) what came before the big bang",

 

and you say:

 

"A God must have come before the big bang" (without any evidence.)

 

:sl:/Peace,

 

What I don't understand is why it irks you so much that people may want to believe in God?

 

You base all your beliefs and perceptions of the reality of this world on logic (i.e. what seems logical to you). What I would say is, that the way we have been created we are not just creatures who were made to use our intellect (i.e. logic is not sufficient to explain our purpose), we are beings that have complex emotional layers (many of which can't be explained by science) so whilst logic does have a place in our religion the human intellect can only take us so far.

 

I would go so far as to say that the difference beween you and me, is that once I have reached the limits of my own intellect, I recognise that there must be something beyond that; another dimension that is not rational/logical to the human mind. This is where belief comes in.

 

You, however, believe that the human intellect has the potential to explain everything, all the wonders, mysteries and complexities of this world, and even further; the universe.

 

To me that is almost farcical, and a touch arrogant.

 

With peace.

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:sl:

 

ericwilson I am a 3rd year Biology student.

may I ask what level of education do you have?

 

Also if you can refrain from name calling

A conversation is much more civillized without emotions getting inte way.

you are capable of that, arent you?

 

 

And darla_1753 I think you summed it up nicely

that is pretty much how I feel about religion and science.

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:sl:

 

You can believe in evolution, and creationism at the same time. There is no problem with that. Darwin's theroy is only a theroy so how can you say its undeniable fact? Its called "Theroy of Evolution" Meaning its not proven. So how can you say its totally true. What if we did evolve from apes, and Adam, and Eve were the first humans of our kind?

 

Also Quran like scienctific therioes can also be proved wrong. Like scientific theroy to be accepted by the science community they need to have a way to be proven wrong right? Well Quran can be proven wrong by the following ways.

 

1. Create a chapter like the Quran (Why has no body done this yet?)

2. Find a contradiction in the Arabic Quran (Not translation)

 

There is a chapter with only 10 words. Why has no one been able to change anything in the Quran?

 

Evolution sounds pretty cool. I learned about it in history class on how we went from homo erectus to homo sapians, and then we moved out of Africa.

 

THE MISSING LINK BETWEEN APE, and HUMAN HAS NOT BEEN FOUND YET!!!

Edited by Ryo_Akiski

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The theory of evolution is not solid , from my understanding the whole theory is based on homologous and vestigial structure , on some fossil records , and biochemical similarities .

So What is an homologous structure ? Homologous structure are equivalent structure between 2 or more species which may or may not look alike or perform the same function , but the question is does this constitute a proof of common ancestry ? well to answer that let’s take a look in computer science, and more specifically in object oriented programming .what interest us are the concept of class , object and inheritance , let’s define each of them for better understanding .

A class is kind of a template for objects and it defines it’s abstract characteristic, like for example a class of subatomic particles, or a class of mammals.

Inheritance is used to create subclass which are derived from an abstract class thus sharing it’s properties and behavior and being more specialized, like the subclass of humans of the class of mammals. A subclass could inherit the properties of one or more basic class.

An object is an instance of a class, like for an example a human named Steve is an instance of the class human.

A key idea to comprehend is that classes and subclasses are abstract as for instance there are concrete.

So how does this relate to evolution , well simply by proving that those similarities are not a solid proof of a common ancestor but could be viewed as inheritance of classes in an abstract thought , this will address the issue of homologous structure , fossil records and biochemical similarities .

 

As for vestigial structures , an issue which is still open to debate , they can also be explained by classes inheritance .

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I do this stuff because I care.

 

Two of my relatives have died of cancer before, and I would hate to think how dreadful it must be for those who are going through it now. So I donate to cancer charities often (and occasionally others).

 

I give free tuitions to friends, and even friends of friends, whom are struggling at school. Where is the personal gain there?

 

I care about the human race, and so am doing everything I can to try and minimize the damage that I may be doing. I also study nuclear fusion - a clean energy source, and hope to contribute one day.

 

I treat others how I would like to be treated.

Why do most theists think that morality comes from religion?! Are you saying that you don't rape and murder people because of your religious beliefs?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

 

WE ALL HAVE HUMAN MORALITY!!

 

 

No Most people with out religion have no morals , In fact people who reject religion reject the Basic morals and as a whole call to immoral activities , Gay Marriage , Abortion etc.

 

Atheists as a whole Get their morals from religion , they only have a problem acknowledging it .

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:sl:/peace To All

 

This thread was moved from "Basic Islamic Discussions," to "Answering anti-Islamic Allegations," by me...

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No Most people with out religion have no morals , In fact people who reject religion reject the Basic morals and as a whole call to immoral activities , Gay Marriage , Abortion etc.

 

Atheists as a whole Get their morals from religion , they only have a problem acknowledging it .

 

see, this is the problem with the religious type ~ for the most part anyway

 

#1) Ignorance and blind acceptance is mandatory ~ requirement to join any religion. More popularly referred to as "faith".

 

#2) Superiority complex ~ belief that a certian group of religious people are on the right path and that everyone else is hell bound.

 

#3) Inability to use what should be simple logical thought processes, as demonstrated by sticking to the belief in god based on various flawed lines of reasoning:faith, design arguement, etc

 

#4) Inability to doubt - The most serious one, where the religious person is unable to consider the possibly that everything they believe can be wrong.

 

#5) Including religion independant matters and making them seem as if they depend upon a religion ~ Ethics, morality, beauty, truth, reason etc

 

#6) Specialize in god of the gaps arguements ~ "Where else could it have come from?"

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No Most people with out religion have no morals

 

No, not no morals, just different morals.

 

Whereas a Muslims would defend Sharia law, in which all non-Muslims are considered inferior and second class citizens, I believe that all people should be equal under the law.

 

Whereas some Muslims claim that homosexuality should be punished, I do not.

 

Whereas some Muslims believe that changing religions is grounds for punishment, I do not.

 

Non-religious people do have morality, it is just different than yours.

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#1) Ignorance and blind acceptance is mandatory ~ requirement to join any religion. More popularly referred to as "faith".

 

In our eyes, atheists are blind to the truth, and ignorant of the hereafter. So would you like to keep throwing around insults, or actually use a better argument next time?

#2) Superiority complex ~ belief that a certian group of religious people are on the right path and that everyone else is hell bound.
I don't know what religion you're referring to, but no sane Muslim would ever take it for granted that he or she is destined for Heaven, or that he or she is on the straightest of paths.

 

#3) Inability to use what should be simple logical thought processes, as demonstrated by sticking to the belief in god based on various flawed lines of reasoning:faith, design arguement, etc

 

Please, Mr. Logic, tell me more about how flawed the belief in a supreme creator is. Perhaps you could go so far as to actually prove to us why our belief in God is based on "various flawed lines of reasoning".

 

#4) Inability to doubt - The most serious one, where the religious person is unable to consider the possibly that everything they believe can be wrong.
How can one doubt Islam and still be a Muslim? For those of us left in this religion, we are the ones without doubt. Perhaps you could search for Muslims who had doubt, that might please you.

 

#5) Including religion independant matters and making them seem as if they depend upon a religion ~ Ethics, morality, beauty, truth, reason etc

 

So tell me what's wrong with fearing the God who created me, and wanting to please Him? If a child living under his parent's roof is expected to obey the rules of the parent, then what is your argument against us Muslims obeying the rules of our CREATOR? Progression? Freedom from the supreme being? Rebellion?

 

#6) Specialize in god of the gaps arguements ~ "Where else could it have come from?"

 

I'll answer that simply. There is no other place it could have come from. God is not a theory. God is not a creation used to explain the unexplained. God is as real to Muslims as the sun is real to you. If scientists today figure out all of the mysteries of the universe, that would not lessen the existance of God.

 

Try to be a bit more open-minded about other people's beliefs.

 

Salam.

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In our eyes, atheists are blind to the truth, and ignorant of the hereafter. So would you like to keep throwing around insults, or actually use a better argument next time?
you can colour it with pretty words, but faith boils down to blind acceptance. Once your in it, you don't agree with any of its definitive attributes. Kind of like how a man in denial, denies that he's in denial.

 

I don't know what religion you're referring to, but no sane Muslim would ever take it for granted that he or she is destined for Heaven, or that he or she is on the straightest of paths.

I said you have a superiority complex, not that you take it for granted that your on the right path.

 

Please, Mr. Logic, tell me more about how flawed the belief in a supreme creator is. Perhaps you could go so far as to actually prove to us why our belief in God is based on "various flawed lines of reasoning".
I've tried to do this before with the design thread etc, but the road block I keep hitting is that I give the benefit of the doubt to a religious person that they are reasonable when they're pretty much buried in true-believer syndrome. Reasoning simply doesn't work with people so deep into their faith.

 

How can one doubt Islam and still be a Muslim? For those of us left in this religion, we are the ones without doubt.

As I said, "Inability to doubt" :sl:

 

So tell me what's wrong with fearing the God who created me, and wanting to please Him? If a child living under his parent's roof is expected to obey the rules of the parent, then what is your argument against us Muslims obeying the rules of our CREATOR? Progression? Freedom from the supreme being? Rebellion?
and #3 is demonstrated~what you're talking about here is irrelevant to what you quoted.

 

I'll answer that simply. There is no other place it could have come from.

and #3 and #6 is demonstrated, hurray for an arguement from ignorance~

 

God is as real to Muslims as the sun is real to you.
strong belief in anything has no effect on whether or not it is true. MY belief in the existence of the sun does not make the existence of the sun any more real then your belief in God makes God real. I figure you will simply read over this post, read what you want to read, reply with irrelevent subject matter and demonstrate #3 again.

 

Try to be a bit more open-minded about other people's beliefs.

If I wasn't, I wouldn't have came to a muslim forum.

Edited by Duffman_

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you can colour it with pretty words, but faith boils down to blind acceptance. Once your in it, you don't agree with any of its definitive attributes. Kind of like how a man in denial, denies that he's in denial.

 

You can color it with pretty words, but your rebellion against God and your denial of the inevitable is plain and clear. Perhaps it's your fear of accepting that a higher being might actually have bigger plans for you that scares you into denial. But of course, you wouldn't want to admit to yourself that you're wrong. Kind of like how a man in denial, denies that he's in denial.

 

Funny how your own words can apply to you, isn't it? You can accuse me of being in denial however much you want, but accept the fact that I have as much right to say you're in denial. So unless you want to continue this childish "you're it" "no, you're it" banter, I'm sure you can come up with a more intellectual approach to this Theist Versus Atheist debate. Seeing as you're such a Logical Person.

 

I said you have a superiority complex, not that you take it for granted that your on the right path.
Oh, the irony. You're suffering a severe case of the superiority complex yourself. Perhaps it's contagious.

 

I've tried to do this before with the design thread etc, but the road block I keep hitting is that I give the benefit of the doubt to a religious person that they are reasonable when they're pretty much buried in true-believer syndrome. Reasoning simply doesn't work with people so deep into their faith.

 

That still doesn't explain why we shouldn't have a belief in God, or that our reasoning in God is flawed.

 

As I said, "Inability to doubt" thumbsup.gif
And...that's a bad thing? What I feel right now is close to what I would if you'd said that I should doubt that I exist.

 

and #3 is demonstrated~what you're talking about here is irrelevant to what you quoted.

 

And you've demonstrated the biggest problem that people like you have; that you really can't make an argument at all.

 

and #3 and #6 is demonstrated, hurray for an arguement from ignorance~
Now this is just plain pathetic. Is this the best that you can do? That I'm making a fallacy in my argument, based on your interpretation on what this dispute is supposed to be? I call bull.

 

strong belief in anything has no effect on whether or not it is true. MY belief in the existence of the sun does not make the existence of the sun any more real then your belief in God makes God real. I figure you will simply read over this post, read what you want to read, reply with irrelevent subject matter and demonstrate #3 again.

 

At first, I was actually a little relieved at what I had hoped was a semblance of an ACTUAL point, but God help me, I was wrong.

 

Your argument contains no substance; it's based on nothing more than accusations and assumptions. You keep using the same reply to everything I say, which is nothing more than a "you're wrong". What you don't realize is that when you tell someone they're wrong, you show them why your way is right. And you haven't made even one attempt to do so.

 

If you're trying to sway me over to your obviously more superior way of thinking (note sarcasm), then please do more than just make accusations and keep rehashing the same words.

 

Salam.

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Your argument contains no substance;
I agree, I've been a bit lazy maybe.

 

What you don't realize is that when you tell someone they're wrong, you show them why your way is right. And you haven't made even one attempt to do so.

I do realize it was pretty much hurling insults without explanations and I apologise for that but try stepping into my shoes for a second. What could you possibly say to someone who believes in their religion with absolute certainty, and is incapable of doubting their beliefs. It's almost pointless to ask me for an explanation isn't it?

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-

- Showing love and affection;

- Being a good friend;

- Helping others, and sharing;

- Obeying the Golden Rule;

- Working hard;

- Doing your best to help the environment;

- et al.

So I donate to cancer charities often (and occasionally others).

 

I give free tuitions to friends, and even friends of friends, whom are struggling at school. Where is the personal gain there?

 

I care about the human race, and so am doing everything I can to try and minimize the damage that I may be doing. I also study nuclear fusion - a clean energy source, and hope to contribute one day.

 

I treat others how I would like to be treated.

 

Very very good!!! these things make you a real human being...and believing in God is just a personal choice...

Edited by Elidicious

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A simple comparison between the morality in the arabian society before Islam and after Islam proves Eric wrong. Eric wants us to believe that an evolutionary reason exists behind morality in the sense that humans are moral 'because' the communities that followed a code of morality survived better. Well arabs before Islam survived even though they used to bury their daughters alive. Chinese and indian societies of today who abort their female babies also survive. Take the indian society for instance. The immoral caste system of india exists even today. In many Islamic countries there are immoral murders called 'honour killings'. If you ask a religious person, he will testify that the western society is an immoral society... and yet it has survived. The anglo-saxons who colonized half of the world through war and oppression have survived much better than native australians and native indians.

 

It is absolutely absurd to suggest that there is an evolutionary reason for morality. Which society do you think will make better progress: the one that kills its elders/handicapped/sick because they are useless and they can't work or the one that spends money and time to take care of them? If evolution was to detrmine our morality, we would be killing the elders and the handicapped and the sick people. If it was up to evolution to decide for our morality we would be killing the infants who fail a strength test just like spartans did. Have you ever seen a lion who hunts and brings food for a sick lion or a lion that has missed a limb and cannot hunt for himself? What kind of evolutionary theory can justify our taking care of the sick people?

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